The war on U.S. didn't begin on 9/11

[yotanka]

Jeff Jacoby wrote a great <a href="http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/09/11/the_war_on_us_didnt_begin_on_911/" target="new">article</a> for the <EM>Boston Globe</EM> detailing numerous terrorist attacks against Americans and how the war actually began 22 years ago.

On 4 November 1979, Islamist radicals stormed the US embassy in Tehran and, with the support of the Ayatollah Khomeini, proceeded to hold <a href="http://www.helis.com/featured/eagle_claw.php" target="new">52 Americans hostage </a>for the next 15 months. The Carter administration's response -- an embargo on Iranian oil, a break in diplomatic relations, and a botched rescue attempt the following April -- was feeble and inept. It was also the start of a pattern that would be repeated time and again in the years and administrations that followed.

When American citizens living in Lebanon were abducted -- and some of them tortured and killed -- by Iranian- and Syrian-backed terrorists between 1982 and 1991, the United States reacted with a pathetic arms-for-hostages ransom scheme.

When a massive car bomb at the <a href="http://www.terrorismvictims.org/terrorists/beirut-marine-barracks.html" target="new">US embassy in Beirut</a> murdered 63 people on 18 April 1983, and another attack on 23 October 1983 <a href="http://www.beirutveterans.com/mediaa.htm" target="new">killed 241 Marines</a> in their barracks, the Reagan administration promised vengeance, but in the end merely withdrew US troops from Lebanon.

Check out a few other atrocities committed by the cult of islam, keep in mind that islam is a religion of peace. (Yeah right, and I'm a doorgunner on the space shuttle.)

On 16 March 1984 the Islamic Jihad kidnapped and later murdered Political Officer <a href="http://www.fortunatepipedream.org/Services/seanresumefolders/specialforces/williambuckley1.html" target="new">William Buckley</a> in Beirut, Lebanon. Other U.S. citizens not connected to the U.S. Government were seized over a succeeding 2-year period.

On 12 April 1984 Eighteen U.S. servicemen were killed, and 83 people were injured in a bomb attack on a restaurant near a U.S. Air Force Base in Torrejon, Spain.

On 15 June 1985 <a href="http://www.terrorismvictims.org/terrorists/twa-847-hijacking.html" target="new">TWA Flight 847</a> was hijacked by Shitty muslims (Hizballah) who held the 153 passengers captive for 17 days.

On 15 June 1985 U.S. Navy diver <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stands/5008/stethem.html" target="new">Robert Stethem</a> was brutally beaten, tortured, shot and his body thrown from the plane (TWA 847) by Hizballah Shi'ites (Shitty muslims).

On 7 October 1985 the cruise liner <a href="http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achille_Lauro" target="new">Achille Lauro</a> was hijacked by the Palestine Liberation Front and an elderly disabled American, <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stands/5008/leon.html" target="new">Leon Klinghoffer</a>, was shot dead as he sat in his wheelchair and his body was thrown overboard.

On 17 February 1988 <a href="http://operationhiggins.org/" target="new">LTC. Rich Higgins</a> was captured by Hezbollah terrorists who tortured and killed him.

On 21 December 1988 <a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5260/headpage.html" target="new">Pan Am Flight 103</a> was blown up over Scotland, killing all 259 people on board and 11 on the ground.

On 26 February 1993 four Islamic terrorists planted a bomb in the <a href="http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center_bombing" target="new">World Trade Center</a> underground parking garage killing six and wounding over a thousand people.

On October 3-4, 1993 in a <a href="http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/sitemap.asp" target="new">15 hour gun battle</a> in Mogadishu, Somalia which included the shooting down of two US Army helicopters with <acronym title="rocket-propelled grenades">RPGs</acronym> and machine guns; Islamic thugs held a "victory parade" in which the naked bodies of U.S. Army soldiers were dragged by ropes through the streets.

On 1 March 1994 Rashid Baz, a Lebanese terrorist, pursued a van of 15 American students on the Brooklyn Bridge in New York, while shooting a submachine gun, two 9mm guns and a shotgun. <a href="http://www.arihalberstam.com/" target="new">Ari Halberstam</a> was shot in the head and died five days later. Three other teenagers were critically wounded in the attack.

On 25 June 1996 a bomb-carrying fuel truck exploded outside the <a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/khobar.htm" target="new">Khobar Towers</a> (a U.S. military housing facility) in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia killing 19 USAF military personnel and wounding 515 persons, including 240 U.S. personnel. The Saudi Hizaballah were responsible for the attack.

On 7 August 1998 Al Queerda blew up the American <a href="http://www.terrorismvictims.org/terrorists/us-embassy-bombings.html" target="new">embassies</a> in Kenya and Tanzania, killing 81 people and injuring 1700 more.

On 12 October 2000 an Al Queerda suicide squad rammed the <a href="http://www.terrorismvictims.org/terrorists/uss-cole-bombing.html" target="new">USS Cole</a> with an explosives-laden boat killing 17 American sailors and injuring 33.

On 11 September 2001 American Airlines Flight 11 and United Airlines Flight 175 were hijacked in Boston by Osama bin Laden's Al-Queerda terrorists and flown to New York City, NY where they were deliberately crashed into the <a href="http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11%2C_2001_Terrorist_Attack" target="new">World Trade Center</a> killing nearly 3, 000 people. United Airlines Flight 93 was hijacked from Newark, NJ but before the terrorists could complete their mission, the passengers heroically fought with the terrorists causing the airliner to crash in the middle of a Pennsylvania field. All 45 passengers were killed. American Airlines Flight 77 was also hijacked before deliberately crashing into the <a href="http://www.defendamerica.mil/remember/remember_a.html" target="new">Pentagon</a> killing all passengers as well as 124 people inside the Pentagon.

On 15 January 2002<a href="http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0l2e0" target="new"> Avraham Boaz</a>, 71, a dual Israeli-American citizen, was kidnapped at a Palestinian Authority security checkpoint in Beit Jala and murdered.

On 12 May 2003 Osama Bin Laden's Islamic terrorists <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/13/world/main553632.shtml" target="new">shot their way into three housing compounds</a> in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia before setting off suicide car bombs wounding over 200 and killing 34.

On 19 August 2003 a truck bomb <a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/un-hq-baghdad-bombing.htm" target="new">destroyed</a> the UN headquarters in Baghdad killing 17 and wounding 100.

On 15 October 2003 Palestinian terrorist <a href="http://www.iht.com/articles/113804.html" target="new">detonated a bomb</a> which blew up a vehicle in an American diplomatic convoy, killing 3 Americans and wounding 1.

I ask you, my fellow Americans, how much more are you willing to take? They continue to kill, blood and death are all they worship. Attacks by terrorists are not caused by the use of strength; they are invited by the perception of weakness. We are in a fight to the death. Either America will destroy the terrorists or the terrorists will keep destroying Americans. Let us strive to be like the heroes of Flight 93 -- to have the moral clarity to see what must be done, and the strength of will to do it.

[piglet]

Damn I am glad you are back to posting. :) You never fail to impress me with your posts. I mean that truly.

[danjam]

I am sure you have not forgotten that almost everyday terrorist scum are killing servicemen in Iraq.

[zog]

So, shall we kill 'em all and let Allah sort 'em out?

I'm at more immediate risk from gun-toting Hispanic gang members. What do we do about THAT?

[yotanka]

Of course I haven't forgotten that fact, danjam. I took the article by Jacoby and added links for more information to the atrocities he listed as well as adding a couple he didn't list. I haven't compiled a list of atrocities and attacks against our servicemen in Iraq or the Stan though. Whew, that would be one giant list and would take a long time to compile. What I posted above is not, to my knowledge, a total and complete listing of all atrocities committed against us by terrorist since 1979, but it's a damn good start. If anyone finds more incidents that I haven't listed, please post it.

Thanks Piglet for your support, means a lot.

Jennifer Martinez sends

[yotanka]

Whatever Zog...

Jennifer sends

[ktek01]

Originally posted by zog
So, shall we kill 'em all and let Allah sort 'em out?


Sounds like a good plan.

[Teutates]

Originally posted by zog
So, shall we kill 'em all and let Allah sort 'em out?

I'm at more immediate risk from gun-toting Hispanic gang members. What do we do about THAT?

Not a bad idea.

Learn to defend yourself. Or establish a plan to become less conspicuous prey.

[RipperTOW]

Jeff Jacoby is good. So are C Krauthammer and R Tracinski. I think those three are about the best in print these days (I have too much of a love/hate relationship with Malkin to include her).

I think it's good that he's pointing out that the attacks began before September 11th. That is true. It is a little arbitrary, I suppose, as to where you are going to say it exactly started, since militant Islam did not crystallize in an instant, but rather started off small and grew slowly over the entire 20th century into what is now a worldwide, totalitarian legion of suicidal religious zealots. But if you're really going to understand the roots, I think you have to go back further than 22 years.

From our first involvement in that region in the early years of the twentieth century, American oil men were harassed and threatened by Islamic zealots who were obsessed with purging Islamic lands of Western Infidels (see The Prize, Daniel Yergin). Abandoned by Western governments (gunboat diplomacy should never have gone away IMO), many oil men were forced to pay local warlords to protect them against the Islamists. Many of those warlords would become nationalist dictators in the coming decades.

The presence of Westerners in the Middle-East, and perhaps more importantly the influence of Western culture, created a rift in Middle-Eastern culture. The pragmatic warlord types frequently allied themselves with Western business, extorting protection money from them. But this put them in the increasingly dangerous position of being apostates in the eyes of the militant Islamic clergy. In what would evolve into a precarious balancing act that persists until this day, a system evolved where US oil companies, unsupported by their governments, were forced to pay off the warlords, who were in turn forced to pay off the clerics. Both the warlords (for lack of a better word, many of these men went on to be the despots of the region like the Shah) and the clerics were profiting immensely from the extortion trade, the only difference is that while the warlord types were usually either busy blowing it in Monte Carlo and building opulent palaces, the clerics were spending it consolidating power in the mosques and madrassas. So the confrontation between militant Islam and the West actually has roots as far back as the 20's.

In the 30's and 40's, a series of nationalizations occurred in our own hemisphere (notably Cardenas in Mexico, and the upping of the ante in Venezuela) that emboldened the Islamists still further. Mossadegh may have been the face on the Iranian nationalization in the early '50's, but Mossadegh himself spoke candidly on several occassions saying that he basically had no choice but to antagonize the West - to do anything else would have guaranteed an assassination by Islamic fanatics (and his fears were not without precedent). IMO, if you want to pick a single watershed event in the whole miserable history, it is the Iranian nationalization in '51. It was then that the militant Islamists realized that if they were barabaric and menacing enough, they could impose their will on a now emasculated West - not emasculated in the physical sense, but in the philosophical sense. Events before that point amounted to the militant Islamists testing the water, but the Iranian nationalization was the victory that reinforced terror and brutality as a means of achieving their ends.

All the subsequent confrontations: Suez, the wholesale nationalization of Western assets in the entire Middle-East, various embargoes, the wars against Israel, and the overthrow of the Shah and the American prostration of '79, all were extensions of the trend that I think really crystallized in '51. The key is that the militant Islamists could be no threat to us without our own complicity. The resources that have been used to finance the militant Islamic terrorism that now threatens us could not exist without our own complicity. The money that builds their training camps, and funds the governments who sponsor their indoctrination camps (aka mosques and madrassahs), comes from us. Why do they have it? Because after our scientists and businessmen went over there, found the oil, payed the price asked by the princes and dictators, then paid higher and higher prices again and again as those scumbags broke contract after contract threatening to kick them out if they didn't pay more - until finally they nationalized everything and told our companies, "now it's ours, come back and run it for us or we'll shut off the pump," in a final act of pure criminal theft on the grandest scale - because in response to all of that, the moral cowards that have led America for the past 100 years rolled over and fed our businessmen to the wolves. That is when the message was sent that Americans could be menaced, and that is when the extortion money that every one of us still pays today when we gas up our car started its inevitable trickle into the bank accounts that would someday buy an airline ticket for Mohammed Atta.

So I think it is good to point out that it goes back further than 9/11, but I don't think it even comes close to explaining the whole history.

[Anakin]

Interesting points of view, thanks for posting that. I never realised that Islamic fanatics had murdered that many Americans.

[Anakin]

A US Marine before boarding a helicopter to invade Afghanistan in October 2001 said it best. He said:

"it's up to God to forgive them but it's up to us to set up the meeting".

Terrorists continue to murder under the banner of "Holy War", the only way to win is to destroy the fanatics while winning the hearts and minds of the moderates. There's nothing Holy about murder.

[Gypsy]

Originally posted by zog
So, shall we kill 'em all and let Allah sort 'em out?

I'm at more immediate risk from gun-toting Hispanic gang members. What do we do about THAT?

While I would agree that the gang problems in the inner cities and suburbs around the country are cause for great concern what does that have to do with terrorist attacks that have gone "unpunished" for lack of a better word? Not to mention the large scale atrocities these bastards would love to continue to inflict. Not flaming but trying to understand your logic.

As to your first question....it's a start. Many here have voiced the opinion I have held myself....when I see the masses standing up and denouncing attacks then I might change my mind.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by yotanka
What I posted above is not, to my knowledge, a total and complete listing of all atrocities committed against us by terrorist since 1979, but it's a damn good start. If anyone finds more incidents that I haven't listed, please post it.

This (http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stands/5008/victims.html) website is the most complete account I've found in one place. If you scroll to the bottom, there is a chronological menu that allows you to view incidents by decade. Notice several significant attacks before the 1979 Revolution.

[yotanka]

That was excellent, Ripper. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, you are quite knowledgeable on the subject whereas my area of expertise has always been the war in SEA, until recently. I agree with you that the war didn't begin in 1979. I thought that when I first read Jacoby's article, although the rest of it was good and gave me the push to research the incidents. Upon further reading I became highly pissed off.

While pondering on Zog's thoughts I've reached a few conclusions: 1. One cannot compare gangs such as we have in many of our cities to the likes of Lebanese Carlos, UBL, saddam, taliban and the rest of their crew.

2. The victims of the numerous hijackings, the Achille Lauro, the embassies, World Trade Center, etc didn't believe they were at risk - either. When Robert Dean Stethem boarded TWA 847, a commercial airliner, he had no idea that he would be beaten and tortured for hours on end and then shot in the head and his dead body thrown on the tarmac for the world media to broadcast images of all over the world.

When LTC. Rich Higgins, a Vietnam Combat Veteran, was abducted by Hezbollah, he had no clue that this peacekeeping mission would end with him being confined and tortured for more than a year, culminating in a public hanging. His wife, along with the rest of America will surely never forget those photos of the dead Colonel.

The bottom line is that the assorted terrorist strike at a time of their choosing. One never knows. Just how much are we, the average American citizens, NOT at risk from the next terrorist strike? Does anyone truly know?

Anyway, just my thoughts on the subject.

Jennifer Martinez sends

[ktek01]

When I read that list I cant help but wonder, why is arafag still breathing? If Israel doesnt kill him very soon, we should.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by yotanka
While pondering on Zog's thoughts I've reached a few conclusions: 1. One cannot compare gangs such as we have in many of our cities to the likes of Lebanese Carlos, UBL, saddam, taliban and the rest of their crew.

Exactly. Sometimes I agree with zog, but this is so far out in left field that I don't even know where to begin.

What kind of myopia are you suffering from, zog, that you think the question of fighting our foreign enemies and handling domestic crime is an "either, or" question? It's just bizzare to even pose that, but unfortunately you hear it all to often these days. Usually from some socialist obsessed with spending tax money to engineer their great society, who is a pollyanna on foreign policy because fighting primitive religious nuts brings up too many sticky questions in relation to his normal moral agnosticism. I'm not saying you're this kind of person, zog, but that's why the whole "domestic first" movement disgusts me. And if there was any excuse for it at one time, it came crashing down with the WTC.

Go tell the mothers and fathers whose children were murdered by OBL that we can't let terrorism distract us from putting gang-bangers away.

[You wanna end the gang problem: legalize drugs and eliminate the welfare state.]

[yotanka]

My guess is that he didn't like my post and or doesn't like me, so that's why he said what he said.

Jennifer Martinez sends

[Gypsy]

Well hell Jen there are plenty of people that DO like you. :) Besides everyone is entitled to their respective opinion.

At the risk of making everyone here shudder...read some of the old posts of Kid A, our resident MIA liberal in denial. :p

[zog]

It's not personal Yotanka, but it is all about your post.

I heard thre plane hit the Pentagon on 9/11. It set off car alarms all over and I thought it was a lot closer, say, the Capitol. I was in DC's burn unit at Washington Hospital Center on 9/11. It was ugly. Everyone that made it there from the Pentagon survived. Well, sorta. So I know I'm at risk living here in Chocolate City.

Fact of the matter is, the gangs -- who recently shot up a DC street for 2 blocks and winged some innocents -- present more of a threat to me, in my city, than I think a terrorist might. And the threat is probably just as random, too. Yet, heck, I don't lump all Hispanics as deadly gang members. I wish you wouldn't do the same to Muslims. I've been blessed to eat at Latino and Muslim dinner tables. Fine people. Just because some are AWG's doesn't mean all are.

[Gypsy]

Originally posted by zog
Fact of the matter is, the gangs -- who recently shot up a DC street for 2 blocks and winged some innocents -- present more of a threat to me, in my city, than I think a terrorist might.

What do you mean "might" zog? Of all cities I believe Washington DC to be under more of a threat than any other city for pretty obvious reasons.

And as I asked earlier, right after your earlier post, what does the gang "problem have to do with terrorist attacks that have gone "unpunished" for lack of a better word? Not to mention the large scale atrocities these bastards would love to continue to inflict." This war will never end....if we stop fighting terrorism we won't have American cities to discuss. So why compare that with an inner city problem?

[Gypsy]

sorry double tap...

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by zog
Yet, heck, I don't lump all Hispanics as deadly gang members. I wish you wouldn't do the same to Muslims.

Being hispanic is an unchosen trait. Islam is a chosen ideology. It's not a valid comparison.

[Doctor_Doom]

Disagree Ripper. Choosing to be a fanatical Islamic terrorist is a chosen trait that should get one killed. Being born Muslim and raised that way is as cultural and "unchosen" a trait as being Hispanic.

Maybe zog didn't state his opinion too adroitly, but saying that we should kill all Muslims and let God sort them out because people "chose" to be Muslim and as such are automatically unworthy of life is just wrong. On the one hand, I don't think you gentlemen who posted those sentiments are actually going to act on it, but that kind of talk from men who have pulled the trigger is especially chilling.

[zog]

Yeh! What HE said!

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Doctor_Doom
Disagree Ripper. Choosing to be a fanatical Islamic terrorist is a chosen trait that should get one killed. Being born Muslim and raised that way is as cultural and "unchosen" a trait as being Hispanic.

Kind of hard to explain the Muslims who grow up Muslims and change their mind later in life on that hypothesis isn't it?

Originally posted by Doctor_Doom
Maybe zog didn't state his opinion too adroitly, but saying that we should kill all Muslims and let God sort them out because people "chose" to be Muslim and as such are automatically unworthy of life is just wrong.

Well you and zog do very well in tearing down the straw men you build up in charicature of people's arguments. Congratulations, you're very good at arguing with yourself.

Nobody is saying seriously that anyone who is a Muslim must be hunted and killed. Zog is trolling for it with his whiny little "should we just kill 'em all?" post, and ktek responded in kind. Notice, ktek didn't launch off on a post saying we should find every Muslim in the world and kill him. He just made a toungue-in-cheek repsonse to zog's baiting. I have never read anyone on these boards say that every Muslim should be exterminated. What has been said is that being a muslim is a choice, and this is true. It has been said that the so-called silent moderate majority probably doesn't exist, and there is at least a good case that can be made in support of this. And it has been said that all of those who have sympathy with militant Islamists should not be fawned over, but should be treated like anyone else that aids an enemy.

But if you prefer to pretend that we're saying that all Muslims must be rounded up and gassed a la Hitler and the Jews, just because that's an easier argument to attack, then go right ahead. Don't expect me to respond to it anymore, though, because that's not what I'm saying, and I never have (I don't think ktek is either).

[Jimbo]

So, yotanka, I'll give you bonus points if you can tell me the name of the guy who is responsible for most of those attacks. Its unclassified. You might be able to get your CT buddies to give you a hand.

If you find out, and continue to learn, you may understand why I have such a hard time with your posts on Islam lately.

[Jimbo]

Actually, screw that. I just read your drivel-inflused first post on this thread. Please, please for your own sake, get better informed on this subject.

Imad Mugniyah. That's the guy. Through various positions in various terrorist organizations he has been personally responsible for or the advisor to the vast majority of attacks against Americans since 1983. Do some research, please.

He is a Muslim, but to paraphrase an unnamed source in an article written by Sam Katz "His religion is the operational end of an attack."

Islam plays a role in the war we are currently engaged in, but even if we could wipe out the whole 'cult' of Islam, the war would rage on.

[yotanka]

You know Jimbo, it sounds like you're being rude. I haven't been rude to you and I don't appreciate it. You don't agree with me, fine, don't read my posts.

Jennifer Martinez sends

Originally posted by Jimbo
Actually, screw that. I just read your drivel-inflused first post on this thread.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by yotanka
You don't agree with me, fine, don't read my posts.

Jennifer Martinez sends
Done. Ignore list it is. It's been great talking at you.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by yotanka
You know Jimbo, it sounds like you're being rude. I haven't been rude to you and I don't appreciate it. You don't agree with me, fine, don't read my posts.

Jennifer Martinez sends

Strike my last post. That was not me being rude, that's me being indignant. I'm not letting you off the hook that easy. You don't want discussion, don't post in the discussion forum.

If you are going to post false and/or inflammatory material, prepare to defend your position. If you want to post articles and not get the kind of indignant reaction you've gotten from me so far, do it without your editorial comments.

I sincerely appreciate the work you do on behalf of the military and veterans. I'll defer to your experience on those issues. But not on terrorism or Islam.

[Doctor_Doom]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
Kind of hard to explain the Muslims who grow up Muslims and change their mind later in life on that hypothesis isn't it?



Well you and zog do very well in tearing down the straw men you build up in charicature of people's arguments. Congratulations, you're very good at arguing with yourself.

Nobody is saying seriously that anyone who is a Muslim must be hunted and killed. Zog is trolling for it with his whiny little "should we just kill 'em all?" post, and ktek responded in kind. Notice, ktek didn't launch off on a post saying we should find every Muslim in the world and kill him. He just made a toungue-in-cheek repsonse to zog's baiting. I have never read anyone on these boards say that every Muslim should be exterminated. What has been said is that being a muslim is a choice, and this is true. It has been said that the so-called silent moderate majority probably doesn't exist, and there is at least a good case that can be made in support of this. And it has been said that all of those who have sympathy with militant Islamists should not be fawned over, but should be treated like anyone else that aids an enemy.

But if you prefer to pretend that we're saying that all Muslims must be rounded up and gassed a la Hitler and the Jews, just because that's an easier argument to attack, then go right ahead. Don't expect me to respond to it anymore, though, because that's not what I'm saying, and I never have (I don't think ktek is either).

Being able to not be a practicing Muslim does not make Islam an ideology. Being Hispanic is not a genetic or unalterable "trait"; that identity is malleable also. To say that one is chosen and the other unchosen and that the two are entirely incomparable is my point; by your rationale it would make every cultural identity a choice. How would you explain a kid who is born Muslim and that's the only culture he knows, that he made a choice to follow an ideology? I find that to be untrue. I find the problem of street violence and Islamic fundamentalist terrorism completely incomparable threats for entirely different reasons than the permanence of the two cultures as they manifest in the individual.

As for the rest, I tend to be too serious and miss the tongue in cheek part of most posts. I also take the BTDT's, everyone really, very seriously. I did not think you were advocating indiscriminant violence. I do not think that ktek or Teutates seriously mean that all Muslims should be exterminated, either, since my guess is that their experience and training would preclude that undisciplined approach to problems even if they held that opinion. I think that your appreciation is accurate and that, frankly, most extremist statements posted on the boards are at most semi-serious. I admit that often the nuances of the verbal sparring are lost on me.

Unlike you, however, I have read a lot of posts with nasty undercurrents and frankly prejudiced assumptions about Islam on the boards, and this time I decided to say that this kind of talk is not something I'm comfortable with. Not to say "look at your terrible mean and prejudiced positions, how easily I knock them over," because I don't think that it is your position, but to say that that kind of statement on a message board where context and nuance is lost (often on me anyway) made me uncomfortable. And to see someone like Gypsy, whom I kid around with on a regular basis, saying "It's a good place to start" makes me uncomfortable. Even though I know damn well she would be the last person to actually advocate anything like extermination.

So no caricaturing, just me being a stick in the mud probably, but the words are all I have to go by, and so I dropped my two cents worth.

I do agree with you that the Middle East is so polarized that a moderate majority probably does not exist, and that to not speak or act against the extremists is to share the burden of guilt.

[yotanka]

I don't know what you're talking about. I started this thread with a post that list attacks on Americans by terrorists. I don't know what is "false" and or inflammatory about that post. I also fail to see anything wrong with my "editorial comments."

Discussion is one thing, I don't think we were having a discussion. Perhaps you were having a discussion. Nonetheless, thank you Jimbo for reminding me why I left and why I don't belong here. I do appreciate your kindness and sincerity.

Jennifer Martinez sends

Originally posted by Jimbo
Strike my last post. That was not me being rude, that's me being indignant. I'm not letting you off the hook that easy. You don't want discussion, don't post in the discussion forum.

If you are going to post false and/or inflammatory material, prepare to defend your position. If you want to post articles and not get the kind of indignant reaction you've gotten from me so far, do it without your editorial comments.

[Purple36]

Now, come on Jennifer.....you've been around here long enough to have thick skin, Jimbo's not an asshole and he explained his perception of your post. This topic is an important one and it will evoke a lot of emotions...that's the difference between men and women....they can slug each other around and end up in a bar together as fast friends....we get all huffy and hurt and make more out of a burst of anger than is necessary. Having worked my whole career mostly as one of the only women in the unit...I've found it useful to understand some of our differences...makes for a better work environment.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by yotanka
I don't know what is "false" about that post.
That is part of the problem.

Originally posted by yotanka
Nonetheless, thank you Jimbo for reminding me why I left and why I don't belong here. I do appreciate your kindness and sincerity.

And I appreciate your sense of drama. What with all the drama of late you belong here more than I do. Tell you what, you can stay. I'll leave. Take care.

[Gypsy]

Originally posted by Doctor_Doom
And to see someone like Gypsy, whom I kid around with on a regular basis, saying "It's a good place to start" makes me uncomfortable. Even though I know damn well she would be the last person to actually advocate anything like extermination.



You're partially right DD...extermination of extremists (in general) wouldn't bother me one damn bit.

[yotanka]

No I didn't say Jimbo was an asshole, not at all. He explained and I replied back in honesty, that I don't know what he's talking about. Which apparently is part of the problem. I also don't know what he means by "my sense of drama." No drama here.

I'm not huffy nor hurt, I just don't need it. Each time I come here, (yeah I know, I must be a glutton for punishment) it is made crystal clear that I do not belong here. No drama, just stating the facts. Let's face it, I don't get along with anyone. I'm the one female on these boards that the membership loves to hate. My posts continually cause trouble. I was told in the past not to post news articles because others don't like it.

Although not in the service myself, I too have spent most of my life around men. The funny thing is, the ONLY place I run into trouble - is here. Anyway, not to take up anymore of your time. I hope Jimbo will change his mind and choose to stay. These boards are for him and the other Veterans, not for the likes of me.

Sincerely,
Jennifer Martinez

Originally posted by Purple36
Now, come on Jennifer.....you've been around here long enough to have thick skin, Jimbo's not an asshole and he explained his perception of your post. This topic is an important one and it will evoke a lot of emotions...that's the difference between men and women....they can slug each other around and end up in a bar together as fast friends....we get all huffy and hurt and make more out of a burst of anger than is necessary. Having worked my whole career mostly as one of the only women in the unit...I've found it useful to understand some of our differences...makes for a better work environment.

[Purple36]

Your perception is far different than mine, because I've seen multiple postings of people happily welcoming you back. Now, you and Jimbo might have an issue, but I don't see it in other places, unless this occurs in PMs.

[Marauder]

What has been said is that being a muslim is a choice, and this is true.

Resorting to using terrorist methods to strike at an enemy is also a choice. Granted, factors out of the terrorist's control may deciscively influence the use of such tactics, just as much as structural factors in the targeted opponent can be a catalyst for making the choice.

Growing up in a Protestant background, I have a choice to decide if I stay with the church or find for myself that the church is simply an archaic outgrowth that manipulates its followers into throwing money at the place to consider themselves "good", rather than finding their own peace and happiness with a higher power. Or, I can choose to believe the Bible, bastardized in message and translation as it has become, word for word, and think that because I live the life that a medival peasant would approve of, I don't have to pay the cover to hop the line that St Peter is the doorman for.

You insist that while Muslims CAN choose their beliefs, they CAN'T choose to interpret those beliefs as THEY, as a free thinking INDIVIDUAL, see fit? The way I see that, you are saying that Muslim adherants only have enough free will to say "Prasise Allah", but are too simple to fully understand what they are saying in context when uttering that phrase. Please, please, correct me on that count.

And since being a Muslim is a choice, doesn't that mean that anyone could become Muslim, and thus represent a threat? Johnny Walker Lindh was as WASP as you can be, and he chose to convert. Does this mean we should look a little harder at the WASPs, especially if they aren't one of Fallwell's little lobotomized flock?

As for the populist Muslim uprising against fundamentalism goes... I look at it this way; when is the last time Joe Sixpack who goes to Church every Sunday because Dad took him as long as he can remember, and Grandpa took Dad before that, and Great-Grandpa.... anyway, when does he take to the airwaves and opinion pages when Fallwell or Roberts or (insert "god-fearing Christian" blowhard) gets on TV on some cashgrab, errrr, "ministry" station and says "I'm not a bigot, but [whoever] is what is destroying yada yada yada". Fallwell hates anyone not sending him money, bin fagen hates everyone not sending him money. If you aren't gonna take Joe to task for not denoucning the blowhards his religion bred, then what's the justification for telling Achmed to fuck off for doing essentially the same thing?
Yeah, AQ is a direct threat to all Westerners. (Including us agnostic and athiest folk, don't forget.) But while you read tacit and even overt approval from the silence, I read good old fashioned apathy from being immersed in the good life, where everything is still mostly "over there" and not "over here".

I interact with a lot of Muslim kids here at school every day, and not one has yet told me that he hates me because I don't pray to Allah. They hate me because I'm a rude asshole. :) And no threats of "Praise Allah or Taste the Sword" yet, so there just may be hope.

[Special Forces]

Originally posted by yotanka
I'm not huffy nor hurt, I just don't need it. Each time I come here, (yeah I know, I must be a glutton for punishment) it is made crystal clear that I do not belong here. No drama, just stating the facts. Let's face it, I don't get along with anyone. I'm the one female on these boards that the membership loves to hate. My posts continually cause trouble. I was told in the past not to post news articles because others don't like it.

Although not in the service myself, I too have spent most of my life around men. The funny thing is, the ONLY place I run into trouble - is here. Anyway, not to take up anymore of your time. I hope Jimbo will change his mind and choose to stay. These boards are for him and the other Veterans, not for the likes of me.

Sincerely,
Jennifer Martinez

Jen:

Not sure where you got the above from. Most of the BTDTs have gone to the mat for you before, welcomed you back, and continue to appreciate your contributions.

I get along fine with you. I get along fine with Jimbo too, but if I didn't, we could call one another names, and then agree to disagree after the heat died down. Most of the flame fests here would not occur if people were face to face, seeing the other person, the reactions, body language, etc.

I enjoy reading your posts, and agree with the majority of them. Those that I don't are always within my tolerance level. Obviously, others have differing opinions, and you can't please everyone, and some people piss me off just to see their names on posts.

If you think that this is the only place to run into trouble and disagreements, try visiting the Democratic Underground site, now that place can make you crazy fast!

C'est la vie, c'est la guerre....

Take care all and have a great evening.

TR

[RipperTOW]

Marauder, whose argument is your above post intended to address? It's not clear to me.

[Marauder]

Ms. Martinez:

You've been on here long enough to know better than to try and play the "Woe is me" card when someone calls you on something they don't agree with.

Big Boy's Game, Big Boy's Rules. You're gonna get knocked down eventually. If you're gonna take your ball and go home, then do as you see fit. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not gonna balk at taking you to task if I think something you say warrants it, not simply because you are a female. Some others may play that game, but I say fair is fair.

I respect all the good work you have done for SF vets. However, I don't think that entitles you to feel you should not be disagreed with.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm certain I'm gonna get hammered by a lot of people for this post.

[ktek01]

Originally posted by Marauder

And since being a Muslim is a choice, doesn't that mean that anyone could become Muslim, and thus represent a threat? Johnny Walker Lindh was as WASP as you can be, and he chose to convert. Does this mean we should look a little harder at the WASPs, especially if they aren't one of Fallwell's little lobotomized flock?

As for the populist Muslim uprising against fundamentalism goes... I look at it this way; when is the last time Joe Sixpack who goes to Church every Sunday because Dad took him as long as he can remember, and Grandpa took Dad before that, and Great-Grandpa.... anyway, when does he take to the airwaves and opinion pages when Fallwell or Roberts or (insert "god-fearing Christian" blowhard) gets on TV on some cashgrab, errrr, "ministry" station and says "I'm not a bigot, but [whoever] is what is destroying yada yada yada". Fallwell hates anyone not sending him money, bin fagen hates everyone not sending him money. If you aren't gonna take Joe to task for not denoucning the blowhards his religion bred, then what's the justification for telling Achmed to fuck off for doing essentially the same thing?
Yeah, AQ is a direct threat to all Westerners. (Including us agnostic and athiest folk, don't forget.) But while you read tacit and even overt approval from the silence, I read good old fashioned apathy from being immersed in the good life, where everything is still mostly "over there" and not "over here".



When Fallwells people start flying planes into buildings we will worry about them. Until then its raghead hunting season.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Marauder
You insist that while Muslims CAN choose their beliefs, they CAN'T choose to interpret those beliefs as THEY, as a free thinking INDIVIDUAL, see fit? ....

I assume this is directed at me, since you quote my earlier post, but I've read your post about 5 times now and I honestly don't have a clue what in the hell you are trying to say. I can only cherry pick out a few and address those, but as for what might amount to an overall statement from your message, I have no idea what it is.

Originally posted by Marauder
You insist that while Muslims CAN choose their beliefs, they CAN'T choose to interpret those beliefs as THEY, as a free thinking INDIVIDUAL, see fit?

Where did you get that? People have all kinds of choices. Every idea people hold they hold by choice. I did not insist anything like that. Cite the statement you're referring to, and maybe I can explain how you misunderstood me.

As for the rest, I don't have a clue what you're trying to say.

[Marauder]

Ripper, I am late to the game on this thread, so I guess it's not directly aimed at any one post. Put simply, my perception is that there are some, yourself included, who think that Muslims chose to remains adherents to their faith only so that the can hate America and the rest of the Western world. I don't see you giving credit to those who aren't blowing themselves or others up as having refrained from such acts. Where you see every Muslim as a bundle of explosives waiting to go off, I see millions of Muslims down the street, in the next classroom, or in the next city over who haven't chosen to walk into a cafe or pizza joint or ball diamond and start blowing up neighbours and co-workers and fellow PTA members. I'm the first to admit that many of them are cliqeish to exclusion, but I say live and let live.
The Middle East cocksuckers with a rifle pointed at your head and mine, that's a whole other section of the library, let alone another chapter. I say hunt Hamas, AQ, Hizbollah, and all these other motherfuckers down with extreme prejudice and furious anger. They made thier choice and they made it Lima fuckin' Charlie. I say use the strectched resources to find those bastards. It's not economical to be surveilling everyone coming out of the mosque on Western soil. I just can't agree with you that every single Muslim I have met in 22 years secretely wants to put me and my "kind" to the sword. I just don't see it.

[mdb23]

Ripper,

I think he (Marauder) is saying that an individual can chose to be Islamic, but is also free to decide to what degree, exactly, he will practice his faith, as well as how to interpret the religious texts.

In Christianity, for example, there are those who believe in the Bible, but don't -exactly- follow it's rules to the letter. There are those, however, who do. Finally, there are those who blow up abortion clinics or murder family planning doctors because they believe it is the will of God. In short, those who label themselves as "Christians" run the gamut of ideologies, interpretations, and behaviors.

In my -limited- experience, the same spectrum of beliefs and behavioral devotion to the doctrines applies to Islam as well.

Are there factions of the Islamic faith that behave in a "cult like" fashion? I am sure there are, as there are militant cults in nearly every religion. Does that mean that nobody who practices Islam can be an ally in our fight against terror? I don't think so, but apparently some do.

Anyway, I am going to get out of here. Go Yankees.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Marauder
Ripper, I am late to the game on this thread, so I guess it's not directly aimed at any one post. Put simply, my perception is that there are some, yourself included, who think that Muslims chose to remains adherents to their faith only so that the can hate America and the rest of the Western world. I don't see you giving credit to those who aren't blowing themselves or others up as having refrained from such acts. Where you see every Muslim as a bundle of explosives waiting to go off, I see millions of Muslims down the street, in the next classroom, or in the next city over who haven't chosen to walk into a cafe or pizza joint or ball diamond and start blowing up neighbours and co-workers and fellow PTA members... I just can't agree with you that every single Muslim I have met in 22 years secretely wants to put me and my "kind" to the sword. I just don't see it.

Well, all I can say is that is the most fantastic misrepresentation of my outlook that has been posted to date. Late or not, I challenge you to back that up with statements I've made. If you're going to attribute that kind of bizzare irrationality to somebody you outta have the nuts to back it up with a reference to something they actually said. I've gone on ad naseum about the distinction between militant Islam and regular Islam, told stories about Muslim co-workers, sympathized with QuietPatriot, etc., in an attempt to make the point that it is the militant Islamists who are the threat. The fact that I am even arguing, and I have at length, for the qualifier "militant" outta tell you something.

You give out the kudos all you want. I personally don't think that NOT strapping a bomb on yourself and blowing up infidels is anything that one would deserve some kind of special praise for. The word I would use to describe a person like that is: normal.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by mdb23
Ripper,

I think he (Marauder) is saying that an individual can chose to be Islamic, but is also free to decide to what degree, exactly, he will practice his faith, as well as how to interpret the religious texts.

I see. Well if that's what he's saying I've made that point myself before. The context was a post to QuietPatriot, where I said that it is those who take Islam seriously and literally - and those who sympathize with and support them - who are the threat.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Strike my last post. That was not me being rude, that's me being indignant. I'm not letting you off the hook that easy. You don't want discussion, don't post in the discussion forum.

If you are going to post false and/or inflammatory material, prepare to defend your position. If you want to post articles and not get the kind of indignant reaction you've gotten from me so far, do it without your editorial comments.

I think you are being rude. Inappropriately belligerent too. You're not having a discussion, you're getting mad. I think you owe Yotanka an apology.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Purple36
Jimbo's not an asshole

Well he's no gentleman, that's for sure.

[mdb23]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
I see. Well if that's what he's saying I've made that point myself before. The context was a post to QuietPatriot, where I said that it is those who take Islam seriously and literally - and those who sympathize with and support them - who are the threat.

Those who take Islam literally, and seriously for that matter, would not harm a non combatant (unarmed person), or a woman, child, or elderly person for that matter, as all are prohibited by their religious texts.

This is the very reason that we have declared a war on "terror" as opposed to one on Islam. The attrocities of 09.11.2001 are not supprted by Islamic texts, just as the bombings of abortion clinics are not supported by the Bible.

People justify radical actions by invoking religion. It does not, however, mean that all who practice that religion support or believe in those acitons.

[C-M-R]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Well he's no gentleman, that's for sure.

Oh for crying loud. Why not?

[Georgia]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
I think you are being rude. Inappropriately belligerent too. You're not having a discussion, you're getting mad. I think you owe Yotanka an apology.

Roguish Lawyer:
I don't see that is warranted. If Jimbo had made the same comment to Quite Patriot or RipperTow, no one would demand that he apologize to them. The fact that women for the most part are treated as equals in lively debates is one of the things I like best about SOCNET. I know you gentlemen go out of your way to treat the women on this board with respect, and it is very much appreciated. However, when anyone posts a topic for discussion, it is expected that it will be questioned or challenged, and with an emotionally charged issue like this, more than likely things will get heated. .

Jen:
This is not personal against you. I firmly believe we [women on SOCNET] should not be treated with kid gloves.

[RIT_MEDIC]

Originally posted by mdb23
...In Christianity, for example, there are those who believe in the Bible, but don't -exactly- follow it's rules to the letter. There are those, however, who do. Finally, there are those who blow up abortion clinics or murder family planning doctors because they believe it is the will of God. In short, those who label themselves as "Christians" run the gamut of ideologies, interpretations, and behaviors.


Now while I do believe there is a similarity between Christianity and Islam in that they both have fanatics and both have liberals I do not believe the above is close in comparison.

There have been several abortion clinics bombed and doctors murdered in the name of God. Each time this has happened there are pastors and ministers who stand up and condemn their actions publicly. When was the last time anyone has seen a cleric stand up and publicly address what happened on 9.11 and condemn those that perpetrated such violence in the name of Allah? When was the last time a cleric condemed the suicide bombings in Isreal, Bagdad, etc? I have not seen it. I am not talking a single cleric either.

James D

[Scotty]

Who is this "Marauder" character and why does he talk so much? :D

Secondly, Jimbo, IMHO, is the epitome of a "gentleman and a scholar". Moreso than I could ever hope to be. While I'm not typically one to expound on my beliefs against any group of people (I usually do so in such a way that it puts my pedal device deep into the feeding oriface). That said, I think that Jennifer (with all due respect) took Jimbo's remarks a little too personal. He wasn't attacking her personally but her post and her semi- (dare I say) racist remarks.

As it has been said, at least one of the senior members of this site is a Muslim. I have met that person, chided that person, and laughed with that person. He's definitely not what I'd call a "shitty Muslim", even if it was a play on Shi'ite.

For any person on this site who has spent any time here to pack up the bags and run is totally contradictive to the mentality that this site constantly portrays. "NEVER QUIT". Or is it "never quiet", I'm not sure. ;)

With this many people there will never be a complete eye to eye point of view and that's what makes this site the cosmic wonder that it is.

Get over it, suck it up, drive on.

My case-quarter and worth what you paid.

Scotty

[Sharky]

Jeeezus


It's a discussion people. Not everyone agrees. So what? State your argument and be prepared to defend it. How hard is that? Don't make it personal and don't take it personal. Ya'll rag on Kid-A, and I didn't much care for his politics, as you can imagine, but he showed more fortitude than some of what I'm seeing here. Very disappointing. You fuckers need to lighten up. Go post your favorite recipe or something. Holy shit.

[Guy]

Until I get home...I hate fucking everybody.:p

Fuck-em all, whoever that may be.:eek:

Take care.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Sharky
Jeeezus


It's a discussion people. Not everyone agrees. So what? State your argument and be prepared to defend it. How hard is that? Don't make it personal and don't take it personal. Ya'll rag on Kid-A, and I didn't much care for his politics, as you can imagine, but he showed more fortitude than some of what I'm seeing here. Very disappointing. You fuckers need to lighten up. Go post your favorite recipe or something. Holy shit.

I disagree with you.

That recipe remarks offended me - personally. 'Cause nobody on this board likes SPAM except KidA and they ran him off.

Jimbo IS an asshole, but he's a very gentlemanly asshole.

I'm with Guy.

Oh, and I do like Jen's posts.

[NewportBarGuy]

Originally posted by Scotty
Who is this "Marauder" character and why does he talk so much? :D

Scotty

All he does is talk talk talk. :)

Guy is a modern day Socrates.

[Scotty]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
I disagree with you.

That recipe remarks offended me - personally. 'Cause nobody on this board likes SPAM except KidA and they ran him off.

Jimbo IS an asshole, but he's a very gentlemanly asshole.

I'm with Guy.

Oh, and I do like Jen's posts.

I'm offended that you're offended by the SPAM things. Personally, and as a liker of SPAM, that is. I tried (so hard) to incorporate SPAM into my recipe. Even made a joke for you as far as adding mom's broken heart. Can't please you.

I'm with Guy too. Only not now. And I like Jen's posts in general as well. Minus the over-sensitivity, her knowledge base is second to few.

Scotty

[Sneaky SF Dude]

http://www.spam.com/assets/hp/GoodGone3_animation.gif


Mmmmm:D :D :D :D :D GOOD! So good - it's gone!

SPAM is no joking matter.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Oh shit! It's a...
http://www.airodyssey.net/graph/hijack-twa847.jpg


HIJACK!

[NewportBarGuy]

In vino veritas.

[Gulf Yankee]

Originally posted by mdb23
Those who take Islam literally, and seriously for that matter, would not harm a non combatant (unarmed person), or a woman, child, or elderly person for that matter, as all are prohibited by their religious texts.

This is the very reason that we have declared a war on "terror" as opposed to one on Islam. The attrocities of 09.11.2001 are not supprted by Islamic texts, just as the bombings of abortion clinics are not supported by the Bible.

People justify radical actions by invoking religion. It does not, however, mean that all who practice that religion support or believe in those acitons.

First of all, nearly every conflict on the planet between two independant countries involves muslims on one or both sides of the war. That is hardly an argument for Islam being a religion of peace. Regardless of what the Qu'ran says, muslims are a war-like people with a history of bloodshed and a present-day culture that is antithetical to peaceful coexistence with others who do not share their beliefs.

Second of all, it is ridiculous to equate islamic militancy with far-right christian fundamentalism. There are at most a dozen or two nutcases running around bombing abortion clinics. There are literally tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions if islamics that are fundamentally hostile to the west and willing to take up arms against us. At the very least, they support, encourage and enable those islamic militants who are presently engaged in terrorism against us. You are comparing a few morons to an entrenched society.

Thirdly, whether or not the 9/11 attacks were supported by islamic script, these attacks are being directed against us in the name of islam. The war we face is not merely a battle against a group of men, it is a war of ideology.

And lastly, I strongly believe, from my own years of experience in islamic countries, that this belief that there is a widespread moderate population, angered by the militants and fundamentally friendly to the west is a myth. These are not people like you and me, these are people who see everything in terms of muslims against the west. The idea that there is an ally waiting for us within the muslim midst is folly.

[Scotty]

It's a HI - POWER. And no, SPAM is no laughing matter. Even when sung about by Monty Python.

SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM, SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM!

Hear it now! (http://www.detritus.org/sounds/real/spam-skit.ram)

Man: Well, what've you got?
Waitress: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam; spam bacon sausage and spam; spam egg spam spam bacon and spam; spam sausage spam spam bacon spam tomato and spam; ...or Lobster Thermidor a Crevette with a mornay sauce served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and spam.

Wife: Have you got anything without spam?
Waitress: Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.


That's not funny AT ALL! Don't even get me started on Smeat.

Scotty

[Bravo Five Romeo]

In counting US deaths from terrorism, let us not rule out the 248 soldiers from 3/502 who died on 12DEC85. Initially believed to be an accident... it has since been considered the largest terrorist attack against US forces prior to 9/11, though it is still debated

[zog]

The Senate voted against Spam Wednesday, 97-0.

Let's talk Potted Meat Food Product.

[Doctor_Doom]

All this talk of compacted gelatin and meat by products is making me uncomfortable. Quit it quit it quit it!!!!!!!!!

[zog]

DT

[zog]

General Tso's Sweet and Sour Potted Meat Food Product with cashews, snow peas and Sneaky's boots.

[Scotty]

This topic is OPSEC and OBSCENE. The interruption of a serious thread such as this can only be continued if kept on the SPAM level.

Smeat is close, but any kind of deviled or PMFP requires a higher TSC than most have.

Back to "SPAM and the Muslim Contingent: A Serious Discussion."

Scotty

[zog]

Can we discuss eating with sporks?

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by zog
Can we discuss eating with sporks?

Why the hell isn't KFC using them anymore? You just can't eat their mashed potatoes properly with a fork, which is what they now give you instead.

Happy to see the hijack, as I don't care and just said what I thought. Bygones.

[Scotty]

Who are you calling a bygones? :D

I think that the spork is a wonderful invention. As a utensil, I mean. It scoops, it spears, it cuts thick ice cream. High equitable benefit.

I think they should make dinner sporks and dessert sporks to go in your finer dining wares. It would at least cut a few minutes out of washing dishes after dinner. And no more having to use the wrong utensil for the food due to no clean ones in the silverware drawer.

I think you're onto something. You're a lawyer, patent it!

Scotty

[Sneaky SF Dude]

LOL - you can eat SPAM witha spork. You can also use the can lid to slice it and scrape off the gravy onto a Ritz. Mmmmm good! as Andy Griffith used to say.

[RipperTOW]

Nice new avatar Sneaky. You gonna get one of those tweed jackets with the elbow patches?

[C-M-R]

Spam in ramen gives you a much better meal than spam or ramen alone. Toss in some green beans and you have cassarole.

I like fried spam, diced spam, sliced spam but I don't like cold spam and really don't like Armor Star Treet.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
Nice new avatar Sneaky. You gonna get one of those tweed jackets with the elbow patches?

I got one. If I had a camera I post a pic. Got a pipe too - a Peterson from Ireland. And a Blue Blazer. And some faggoty suede shoes. And Argyle socks. It all came in a box from Cambridge Mass. in exchange for a bunch of old OGs and cammies with tons of patches on them. Oh, and a green Girl Scout hat with a patch of red panties sewed on it. Think he'll notice?

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by C-M-R
Spam in ramen gives you a much better meal than spam or ramen alone. Toss in some green beans and you have cassarole.

I like fried spam, diced spam, sliced spam but I don't like cold spam and really don't like Armor Star Treet.

OUTSTANDING POST!

Armor Treat is poser SPAM. If it ain't Hormel is must be 10th or 1st Group! LOL.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
...And some faggoty suede shoes.

Yeah, I don't think they'll let you on campus wearing anything else.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

I did an inventory and added some items above.

[zog]

Duct tape for your glasses?
A high speed pocket protector?

Or is that down the road at MIT?

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
And some faggoty suede shoes. And Argyle socks.

Well, since you won't be needing those jungle boots anymore, just send them directly to me. I'm sure His Royal Highness won't mind; the decision is just too obvious.

:D

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by zog
Duct tape for your glasses?
A high speed pocket protector?

Or is that down the road at MIT?

Oh, like you don't know...

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Well, since you won't be needing those jungle boots anymore, just send them directly to me. I'm sure His Royal Highness won't mind; the decision is just too obvious.

:D

He's gonna kick your ass for calling him that.

That's what we used to call a TL that gave out orders a lot - Yer Royal Highness or Yer Honor.

[Polar Bear]

MMMM SPAM 2 thick slices fried place on toasted white bread with mayonnaise or SPAM in macaroni and cheese

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Kickin' ass and takin' names

http://www.harvard-magazine.com/issues/jf98/art/jhj/mascot.jpg

Kinda looks like that leprechuan on that horror movie doesn't it?

I like it.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

"We place our emphasis on education - and not physical education."

http://www.harvard-magazine.com/issues/jf98/art/jhj/parents.jpg

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by zog
Duct tape for your glasses?

Duct tape? Way too utilitarian for Haaah-vaaahd. Scotch tape is more like it.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Lance Serge
MMMM SPAM 2 thick slices fried place on toasted white bread with mayonnaise or SPAM in macaroni and cheese

LOL - "You might be a redneck if..."

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
He's gonna kick your ass for calling him that.

That's what we used to call a TL that gave out orders a lot - Yer Royal Highness or Yer Honor.

[backpedaling furiously]

ELECTED King! BENEVOLENT monarch! :eek: :D

[Sneaky SF Dude]

"Justin and Tiffany at the Kappa Alpha Theta sorority formal"

http://pbe.mit.edu/images/x43.jpg

OMG - Justin and Tiffany?

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Lance Serge and Brewmonkey at the Annual John Wayne Memorial Ball and Spring Formal.

http://pbe.mit.edu/images/x21.jpg

[Sneaky SF Dude]

abn_rngr NO PMING! I'm not helping you get in. We're full for next semester and I heard you suck at lacrosse.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
abn_rngr NO PMING! I'm not helping you get in. We're full for next semester and I heard you suck at lacrosse.

You know, the more you post about this, the more I'm convinced that you went to Dartmouth.

[ktek01]

Now what I want to know is, do muslims eat Spam?

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by ktek01
Now what I want to know is, do muslims eat Spam?

BLASPHEMER!

[Sneaky SF Dude]

And counselor, when you write the word "SPAM" its all capitals - like SEAL, RANGER, MARINE, SF, etc.

[brewmonkey]

SPAM, SPAM, SPAM, SPAM, SPAM, SPAM, SPAM!

[Doctor_Doom]

Lacrosse? We college boys are fans of crew and squash.

SPAM on crudites or it's nothing!

[C-M-R]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
Duct tape? Way too utilitarian for Haaah-vaaahd. Scotch tape is more like it.

You guys missed the nerd boat didn't you? For fixing glasses it's either white adhesive tape, the kind medics use to fix almost everything, or black electrical tape, the kind demo guys use on most things.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Doctor_Doom
Lacrosse? We college boys are fans of crew and squash.

SPAM on crudites or it's nothing!

That's because only real men play LAX!

Why the hell do they call it crew? Shouldn't it be called ROWING!!!

That's like fishing, it should be called CATCHING!

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Doctor_Doom
Lacrosse? We college boys are fans of crew and squash.

Speak for yourself, doc.

Lacrosse is a violent and exciting game, just like ice hockey. You SF guys would like playing it if you tried it, believe me. Beats the hell out of volleyball.

[C-M-R]

Originally posted by ktek01
Now what I want to know is, do muslims eat Spam?

Of course they do when they are working with our guys. You think they ask for the Muslim version of kosher meals? No, they take what they can get and are happy to have it. No sweet kneed, tootsy toes in Grp.

[Doctor_Doom]

RL, stop speaking about what you and I might actually like and toe the college boy line... I like lacrosse, but have taken up squash and crew, as well as wearing pink sweaters around my neck with yellow button down shirts with plain front khakis.
:D

[Doctor_Doom]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Why the hell do they call it crew? Shouldn't it be called ROWING!!!
That's like fishing, it should be called CATCHING!

Silly drunkensimian, crew is done by a fraternity of brothers in knowledge in a boat, n'est pas?

Fishing is virtually manual labor!!!! How non-college boy can you get? Horrors!!!

:p

[ktek01]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
BLASPHEMER!

Oooops, hey at least I didnt call the Greatest American to ever live a homo.

SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM

http://www.brewmonkey.isgay.com

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Doctor_Doom
RL, stop speaking about what you and I might actually like and toe the college boy line... I like lacrosse, but have taken up squash and crew, as well as wearing pink sweaters around my neck with yellow button down shirts with plain front khakis.
:D

OK, time to come clean. My khakis are uniformly pleated. I have pink button-downs, but no pink sweaters. Never tried squash or crew; my law school roommate rowed for Colgate and swears by it, though.

Just waiting for someone to say, "Hello, Frisco!"
:D Probably that country boy from SOB . . .

[Doctor_Doom]

No no no counselor, that won't do at all! I own no pink article of clothing, but that's besides the point! We must live up to the ideal of the ivory tower as being filled with guys who have two last names or two first names, sit around and call each other old bean while drinking sherry at the country club! Forget the truth! :D

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Doctor_Doom
No no no counselor, that won't do at all! I own no pink article of clothing, but that's besides the point! We must live up to the ideal of the ivory tower as being filled with guys who have two last names or two first names, sit around and call each other old bean while drinking sherry at the country club! Forget the truth! :D

Dude, I'm from Arizona. Not me. :p

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by ktek01


http://www.brewmonkey.isgay.com

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Bitch....

That was a good one.

[zog]

Does that sherry come in 140 proof?

And Sneaky: I went to a state school. Masking tape on my glasses.

[Doctor_Doom]

LOL... yeah I'm tired of that too.

I did like crew though.

I'm taking my navy blue blazer with the crest on it and going home!

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Speak for yourself, doc.

Lacrosse is a violent and exciting game, just like ice hockey. You SF guys would like playing it if you tried it, believe me. Beats the hell out of volleyball.

You have obviously never played volleyball with SF, SEALs or Marines

[Doctor_Doom]

Originally posted by ktek01
http://www.brewmonkey.isgay.com

Hahahahahahaha!

Oh sorry, brew...

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Damn! I forgot all about boat rowin'. That really is a Harvard thing isn't it.

Your roomate rowed for Colgate? The teams have sponsors now? I would have thought bass lures before toothpaste.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by brewmonkey

That's like fishing, it should be called CATCHING!

I think they use the term "catching" for something else in college. Like in prison.

[Doctor_Doom]

Originally posted by zog
Does that sherry come in 140 proof?

Is there any other kind, chum?

Crew used to be the biggest money sport in the US, until a big scandal involving sponsorships.

If you want to meet obnoxious college boys the Ivy League crews are a great place to start...

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
I think they use the term "catching" for something else in college. Like in prison.

But of course you knew that already...

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Your roomate rowed for Colgate? The teams have sponsors now? I would have thought bass lures before toothpaste.

I take back my Dartmouth comment. :D

[Doctor_Doom]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
I think they use the term "catching" for something else in college. Like in prison.

Sneaky, you know Princeton well it seems? :D

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
You have obviously never played volleyball with SF, SEALs or Marines

True. Perhaps it's best to keep the lacrosse sticks away from you guys if you can do that with a volleyball . . .

[Teutates]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Well, since you won't be needing those jungle boots anymore, just send them directly to me. I'm sure His Royal Highness won't mind; the decision is just too obvious.

:D

To be described in this manner is bad enough.

To have this pointed out by my better half (laughing) is exceedingly unpleasant, the only thing worse than this is the case of Whoop Ass you'll get if I am EVER mentioned again in this manner.

You are off my Christmas list.

Teutates
Team Sergeant
Special Forces
(Retired)

[Polar Bear]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
LOL - "You might be a redneck if..."

Your laughing you must have tried it at least once. :D

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Lance Serge
Your laughing you must have tried it at least once. :D

Every Tuesday (meat day) for several years. It is also very tasty when mixed in with Rice A Roni - The San Francisco Treat - while cooking.

[Polar Bear]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Every Tuesday (meat day) for several years. It is also very tasty when mixed in with Rice A Roni - The San Francisco Treat - while cooking.

I will have to try that.:D

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Teutates
To be described in this manner is bad enough.

To have this pointed out by my better half (laughing) is exceedingly unpleasant, the only thing worse than this is the case of Whoop Ass you'll get if I am EVER mentioned again in this manner.

You are off my Christmas list.

Teutates
Team Sergeant
Special Forces
(Retired)

LOL - Counselor - you made the Team Sergeant get laughed at by a girl! And his girl even.

OMG - That's like truly the 7th sign of the Apocalypse!

If I was you, I'd go outside and practice falling down on the concrete. LOL

Might want to see USSFPA about donating and storing some of your own blood. I hear that's a good way to prevent getting diseases from transfusions.

Better hurry though. You can only give like a pint a month and you'll be needing quarts.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
LOL - Counselor - you made the Team Sergeant get laughed at by a girl! And his girl even.

OMG - That's like truly the 7th sign of the Apocalypse!

If I was you, I'd go outside and practice falling down on the concrete. LOL

Might want to see USSFPA about donating and storing some of your own blood. I hear that's a good way to prevent getting diseases from transfusions.

Better hurry though. You can only give like a pint a month and you'll be needing quarts.

See, this is the benefit of giving free legal advice to doctors. :( :D

[mdb23]

Spam is no match for Hormel "potted meat." Hmmmmmm, potted meat. Why, give a growin' boy a couple of cans of potted meat, and a can or two of Vienna Sausages, and he will have a cholesterol count of 230 in no time at all.

BTW, what the hell is was that they packed Vienna sausages in? You had to scrape that shit off with a fork before you could eat them............. that's gotta be healthy.

You know, I never realized how poor we were until I first took my lunch to school......... all of the other kids had their designer plastic lunch boxes ( Inspector Gadget, GI Joe, Transformers), drank Capri Sun out of those astronaut pouches, and had Chocodiles for desert. My ass was eating potted meat, stale saltines, and drinking generic tang out of my dad's old thermos. Best of all, I was packing it in a paper sack. Of course, I tried to draw some GI Joe action scenes on it to fool the other kids, but they weren't buying it.

Spam is preppy food.

[Doctor_Doom]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
See, this is the benefit of giving free legal advice to doctors. :( :D

Next thing you know cats will lie down with dogs.

"Dude, he's a lawyer, don't work so hard."
"Yeah, but he gave me free legal advice, so let's try not to kill this one."

:D

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Doctor_Doom
Next thing you know cats will lie down with dogs.

"Dude, he's a lawyer, don't work so hard."
"Yeah, but he gave me free legal advice, so let's try not to kill this one."

:D

Consider yourself fortunate that an attack on your profession would be one on Teutates's spouse!

My Dad is a retired MD and I hear this stuff all the time from him. I'm actually quite pro-doctor in the med mal wars.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Consider yourself fortunate that an attack on your profession would be one on Teutates's spouse!


Damn counselor, you really did learn something in college - LOL.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Damn counselor, you really did learn something in college - LOL.

Nah, I just don't like concrete or needles. :p

[Doctor_Doom]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Consider yourself fortunate that an attack on your profession would be one on Teutates's spouse!

My Dad is a retired MD and I hear this stuff all the time from him. I'm actually quite pro-doctor in the med mal wars.

RL, I attack my own former profession all the time. I left for a reason.

To borrow from Sneaky, I like lawyers, as lawyers, I mean. :D

Except my ex, she's a snake and a liar... perfect for corporate litigation...

[Scotty]

First ya'll are busting on volleyball, the real national passtime, and I haven't even gotten any sand donations for the court! Fucking MDBGBGLMNOP (Mikey) can't even spell SPAM correctly, my hero Sneaky has gone fucking yuppy on me, Two-tit-tays has been laughed at and nobody's dead yet, and to top it all off, I saw Jerry Lewis on TV last night and he looks like he ate the Goodyear blimp!

The Apocolypse is nye and ya'll don't even see it coming up to bite you.

BTW, diced and pan fried SPAM rules with ANYTHING.

Scotty

PS - I had a rusty METAL SQUARE lunch box (none of that plastic shit) and it had my favorite show (Emergency!) pictures RAISED on the front. You whippersnappers and your plastic gizmos. I swear. Mnyaa.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Yuppy your ass.

I had a metal lunch box with 12 O'Clock High dudes on it. And rusty corners and the latch didn't work. Bought at a garage sale. Mine was USED when I got it.

[zog]

mmmmmm, Dixie.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Yuppy your ass.

I had a metal lunch box with 12 O'Clock High dudes on it. And rusty corners and the latch didn't work. Bought at a garage sale. Mine was USED when I got it.

You didn't go out and shoot some varmint for lunch?

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Not for lunch. Although I have taken squirrel and dumplings, fried quail and venison backstrap (breaded) to lunch in the box.

[Scotty]

This is gonna get some folks confused. Sneak, remember BOOK STRAPS? Before those "bookbags" ever existed I had a rubberized strap that held my books together. When I got my first actual book bag, I used the strap to hold my lunchbox together. I think the latches on lunchboxes had a 6 month half-life!

Scotty

[Doctor_Doom]

I had a schoolbus shaped lunchbox that had all the Disney characters in it, metal, raised impressions.

All I wanted was the Battlestar Galactica.

How does one prepare squirrel, and what kind of dumplings go with it?

Only the big kids, 6th graders, had bookstraps...

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Scotty
This is gonna get some folks confused. Sneak, remember BOOK STRAPS? Before those "bookbags" ever existed I had a rubberized strap that held my books together. When I got my first actual book bag, I used the strap to hold my lunchbox together. I think the latches on lunchboxes had a 6 month half-life!

Scotty

Of course I remember them - the rich kids had them. We used bailing twine.:D

[Scotty]

IN THE SEVENTIES?

Scotty

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Scotty
IN THE SEVENTIES?

Scotty

?

[Guy]

Had to report to the CO to get paid...no direct deposit then.

We used spaghetti straps and butt packs in basic training to carry equipment to the field.

Tent halves were the norm.

Beer in the soda machines at airborne school.

Shoeshine hajii was making big bucks.

Was over here the first Gulf war...now I'm back and this place still sucks.:D

Take care.

[Scotty]

I thought straps went out in the '50s and '60s. I was still carrying one IN THE SEVENTIES!?

Aw hell, I'm going back to the SPAM.

Scotty

[ktek01]

Originally posted by Guy
Had to report to the CO to get paid...no direct deposit then.

We used spaghetti straps and butt packs in basic training to carry equipment to the field.

Tent halves were the norm.

Beer in the soda machines at airborne school.

Shoeshine hajii was making big bucks.

Was over here the first Gulf war...now I'm back and this place still sucks.:D

Take care.

I remember around 87 or 88 the first noobs started to arrive that had mandatory Direct Deposit. We were grandfathered in until the next time you re-upped.

Only time I used a tent half was in OSUT

Still had beer in the soda machine in the barracks, at my first duty station. That stopped shortly after I arrived, when they raised the drinking age to 21.

[Doctor_Doom]

Originally posted by Scotty
I thought straps went out in the '50s and '60s. I was still carrying one IN THE SEVENTIES!?


Dude I'm talking about 1981. There were parts of NYC that were tough...

[Doctor_Doom]

Originally posted by Doctor_Doom
How does one prepare squirrel, and what kind of dumplings go with it?

Come on Sneaky, I know I'm a "lib" but I'm curious...

[zog]

so you're "lib" curious?

[Doctor_Doom]

Yeah, if she's hot.

[Solid]

Just to cast in my .02...

Islam is very, very much like Christianity. It certainly has a comparable spectrum of extremism, and it could be said that pro-life bombing mirrors hostage taking or something along those lines.

However, I think the key question is: where does the magnification between the two come from?

In my opinion, Christianity and Islam differ in several ways. Firstly, it should be noted that both acted as 'consolidating forces' during the Imperial eras in Europe and the Middle East. The 'power divide' between Constantinople and Rome was mirrored in the divisions of Islam (Shiite, Sunni, etc), as both were divisions in leadership.
It should also be noted that both religions have a very bloody past: the infighting between Rome and Constantinople, to mention but one ‘Holy War’, mirrors the blood spilt in the unification of the Syrian States. Simply seeing the difference between Western religions and Islam in terms of ‘murderous tendencies’ could be seen as naïve.

I think that Christianity and Islam separate during the Protestant Reformation. Islam never had a Martin Luther (to the best of my knowledge) and I think it is important to investigate why this is the case.
I think the root of Martin Luther's actions, or the freedom in Catholicism that allowed Martin Luther to think of and then perform these actions, is in the religious melee that existed throughout Europe as a result of Christianity's pagan predecessor. Primary documents from the before the Reformation, such as Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, indicate that there was a strong mix of Catholicism, Pagan (largely Classical) religion, and superstition. This mix may have generated a perception of more than one God that resulted in enough free thought and innovation for Martin Luther to reconsider the teachings of the Catholic Church and begin the Protestant Reformation. Islam did not have such widely known or previously ingrained 'pagan' religions. Therefore, it lacked the free thought to trigger a reconsideration of Islam. It should be remembered that the level of religious education/indoctrination was far higher in Muslim states than in Christian Europe. Class differentiations did not impede the spread of Islam as it did in Europe, where the Third Estate participated in, but did not so much study, Christianity.

So, Islam remained unified within its borders whereas Christianity split into many different variations, most falling into Catholic or Protestant categories.
In my opinion, the Reformation injected even more religious freedom, and, therefore, choice, into Christianity. This is the key difference between Islam and Christianity- whereas when one is born Muslim, one stays Muslim, a protestant does not always have to remain protestant.

A good example of the link between multiple religions and religious choice:
When Muslims are introduced to Western Culture and Christianity, the religious freedoms that they are introduced to often leads them to either become more moderate in their beliefs, or abandon Islam altogether.
This demonstrates the importance of the arrival of Protestantism and religious choice in the West.

However, it should be recognized that within Muslim countries, very few people have access to mass media and those that do are often limited to ‘Muslim’ media such as Al Jezzera. What this does, in my opinion, is isolate Muslims from the global community, facilitating their indoctrination into ‘radical’ movements like AQ, but also prevents them from experiencing the religious diversity that would likely lead to a more moderate religion.
In other words, because Muslims lack either strong contact with ‘alternative’ religions, or a ‘Martin Luther’ figure, the religious spectrum in these countries is very limited.

This limit is what I see as a magnifying device. In the West, where religious diversity exists, there are still extremist groups who use violence, or ‘terrorism’ to meet their goals. The numbers of such extremist religions, and therefore their empirical ability to do serious harm, is limited because there is a wider spread of religions in the West. However, in Muslim worlds, where religious diversity is almost non-existent, and therefore there are more people concentrated on the extremes of the religious spectrum (this is also helped by propaganda), there is empirically more ability to do damage. Thus, the difference in scale between a Pro-Life fire bomb and the September 11 atrocities.

Therefore, in some ways Yotanka is right in referring to Islam as a 'cult' because it does have an imperially larger extremist portion than Judeo-Christianity. However, Islam is still certainly a religion, just like any of the religions in the Judeo-Christian faith. In fact, both have a God, some form of Messenger, either a Messiah or a promise of one, and both (most importantly) preach that killing non-combatants is a sin. However, the religious choice that arises from a broad religious spectrum in the West does not exist in the Islamic nations, and, as I have argued, THIS is the reason AQ, Hezbollah, the PLO etc are so powerful.

To further strengthen my point:
The Crusades were religious wars that relied on religious propaganda to create an enemy unseen by most of Christendom. Terror, mass executions, raping, and pillaging ensued in the name of Our Father. The public, including educated members of the 2nd Estate (nobles etc) all fought without question for this cause. The Crusades occurred before Martin Luther and his reformation, during a time of religious unity.

And contemporarily:
The 'Jihad' is a religious war that relies on religious propaganda to create an enemy unseen by most of the Muslim world. Terror, mass executions, raping, and pillaging ensue in the name of Allah. The public, including educated members of the upper classes (like OBL) all fight without [serious] question for this cause. The Jihad occurs during a time of religious unity in the Muslim World.

I think that the one main difference between the times is the effects of the media, which has created a slightly more moderate business elite in the Muslim World. However, anti-western propaganda disseminates easily, and the few televisions available to the general public actually help this propaganda spread.

I wear a cross around my neck.

Thank you for reading, I hope that my points were clearly made and well supported so as not to waste anyone's time.

David


ps: SPAM is unavailable in the UK :(

[fish78]

Originally posted by Doctor_Doom
RL, stop speaking about what you and I might actually like and toe the college boy line... I like lacrosse, but have taken up squash and crew, as well as wearing pink sweaters around my neck with yellow button down shirts with plain front khakis.
:D

Easy Doom, you are describing my entire wardrobe, just don't forget the Bass WeeJuns. Will be joining a bunch of other college boys at Homecoming tomorrow. We will drink Bloody Mary's and beer before the game, Bourbon at the game and beer after the game...now that's college.

[zog]

151 proof rum, fish. Economy of force. Sip the bourbon later.

[fish78]

Anyone not drinking Bourbon or relatively cheap Scotch at a GA football game is immediately sent someplace else, its what we do. Rum, never, never, its just not done.

[Doctor_Doom]

Originally posted by fish78
We will drink Bloody Mary's and beer before the game, Bourbon at the game and beer after the game...now that's college.

I heard that.

[echoes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scotty
[B]my hero Sneaky has gone fucking yuppy on me, Two-tit-tays has been laughed at and nobody's dead yet...
The Apocolypse is nye and ya'll don't even see it coming up to bite you.

BTW, diced and pan fried SPAM rules with ANYTHING.

Scotty

Scotty: I am right with you here....weird, huh? :)

Sneaky: Though I have never had the pleasure of eating SPAM, I would be willing to prepare it any way you like it, if I could just win your BOOTS!
Seriously, I will put them on, and nothing else, and march my self right in to the kitchen/ woods to prepare all the SPAM you want!!! :D

Holly

[zog]

Green Eggs and Spam

[1026]

Originally posted by zog
Green Eggs and Spam

I will not eat it, Sam-I-am.

[specwarnet]

Holly just offered to cook in nothing but boots and you two are sitting there doing nursery rhymes?

[1026]

There's no reason we can't enjoy Holly and Dr. Seuss.:D