Smart people's thoughts on war

[Jimbo]

This article is strong.

http://www.calresco.org/beckermn/nonlindy.htm

Sun Tzo, John Boyd...if they had just thrown in some Trinquier, I'd have a new bible.

[IrishEKU]

Outstanding read!

Oh man is my Poly Sci prof going to go balistic! Just the ammo I needed to light a fire in that class.;)

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Jimbo
This article is strong.

http://www.calresco.org/beckermn/nonlindy.htm

Sun Tzo, John Boyd...if they had just thrown in some Trinquier, I'd have a new bible.

Keep it up with the phrench phag shit and I'm hitting the ignore button. Roger was a loser.

l'll read it again, but I don't think I like the article. War is about preparedness, logistics and fighting spirit. You can't really analize it scientifically because when you do, the exceptions become the rules. Like I said, I'll read it again, but I'll probably be back to kick your ass after PT tomorrow.

[Teutates]

Originally posted by Jimbo
This article is strong.

http://www.calresco.org/beckermn/nonlindy.htm

Sun Tzo, John Boyd...if they had just thrown in some Trinquier, I'd have a new bible.

It’s strong as in odiferous.

OODA, Will we ever end renaming the decision matrix?

“Non-Linear Dynamics of War” I never knew someone in the 21st century would think of war on a linear level?
(Is my tax dollars paying this Phd’s salary?)

I’ve always perceived war as multi-dimensional, and from what I heard that is going by way of the dodo. Quantum nDimensional chaos theory, now that’s a war theory. Linear, bah.

(I bet she teaches at the War College.)

Teutates

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
You can't really analize it scientifically because when you do, the exceptions become the rules.

uhh..Sneaky, you agree with her:
The consequences of becoming fixated on a single line of thought are that we become predictable. In a competitive arena, predictability makes us vulnerable to the adversary and provides him an opportunity to negate our attempts to adapt.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Teutates
I’ve always perceived war as multi-dimensional, ...
I believe this was written for the same Pentagon that thought the Stryker was a great idea.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Not the same thing.

Like I said, I'll read it again and digest it a little.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Roger was a loser.
Touche.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Are you talkin' phrench to me?:D

[(1VB)compforce]

yep, but he said it with a southern accent...

[Anakin]

"Hate war but love the warrior."

Don't know where I heard that and don't know who said it but it's so true. War is hell but love the brave souls who fight it. That's the smartest thought I've ever heard on war.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by DeadlyAnakinSkywalker
"Hate war but love the warrior."

Don't know where I heard that and don't know who said it but it's so true. War is hell but love the brave souls who fight it. That's the smartest thought I've ever heard on war.

Yes, Anakin, but do you love the warrior?

I'm getting worried about you, please tell me you're a girl.

[Anakin]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Yes, Anakin, but do you love the warrior?

I'm getting worried about you, please tell me you're a girl.

Nope, I'm not a girl but I did used to love the Ultimate Warrior from WWF, now I think he's berzerk. ;)
Wrong choice of words I guess. I admire the warrior.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Hey Jimbo, what do you think about my tag line quote in the context of your article and the sit in Iraq?

[Teutates]

“The consequences of becoming fixated on a single line of thought are that we become predictable. In a competitive arena, predictability makes us vulnerable to the adversary and provides him an opportunity to negate our attempts to adapt.”

Jimbo,

I was taught the above quote by a Vietnam Vet over twenty years ago. It goes something like this,

“Professional Soldiers are predictable, but the world is full of amateurs.”

I’m glad someone finds the reading interesting. I take back what I said before, she couldn’t teach at the War College, she never used the word “synergy” once in her paper.


T

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Hey Jimbo, what do you think about my tag line quote in the context of your article and the sit in Iraq?
I've actually thought about it a few times, more, though, in relation to general conflict resolution. It made me think of a concept in conflict resolution called a "hurting stalemate" (Zartman 1989). Basically "where unilateral solutions are blocked and when the parties recognize that continuing violence will damage all sides", but I digress...

Carl's thoughts combine the concepts of overwhelming force, perception management (http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/doddict/data/p/03995.html) and a wee bit of Zartman.

Now that I write this, I am reminded that I was going to write someting on the role of 'will' in conflict. But, the weather was pretty sweet, the honeys were out and I went for a ride. MAybe by Wednesday.

Oh, yeah, I also owe a intro to a discussion of complexity in IR.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Teutates
Jimbo,

I was taught the above quote by a Vietnam Vet over twenty years ago. It goes something like this,

“Professional Soldiers are predictable, but the world is full of amateurs.”

I’m glad someone finds the reading interesting. I take back what I said before, she couldn’t teach at the War College, she never used the word “synergy” once in her paper.


T

There are no new ideas. Just new ways of applying old ones. As you pointed out with the OODA loop/ decision matrix. I don't find it particularly interesting. Its just another tool to use in setting up a framework to fuck up the enemy. Or at least sell your plan for fucking up the enemy up the chain.

I loathe the word synergy. I often use it ironically with few catching on.

[Roguish Lawyer]

I find the article too painful to read all the way through. She should learn to write in English. :rolleyes: Social science bullshit, that's all it is. :p Get a real job, Linda.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Oh, and one more thing: I challenge anyone to give me a single meaningful practical application of this stupid "OODA Loop." What a bunch of academic garbage! Let's describe the obvious in the most dense manner imaginable, shall we? :rolleyes:

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
What a bunch of academic garbage!

Col John Boyd, the guy who developed the OODA loop concept, would disagree. He developed his OODA loop briefing out of his Aeria; Attack Study while a fighter-pilot instructor at the Fighter Weapons School (FWS) at Nellis AFB. He was so good at dominating other people, he had a standing challenge; $40 that he could beat anyone in simulated air combat in under 40 seconds.

11 March 1997

To the Editor:

I was deeply saddened to learn of the passing of Colonel John Boyd, USAF (Ret). How does one begin to pay homage to a warrior like John Boyd? He was a towering intellect who made unsurpassed contributions to the American art of war. Indeed, he was one of the central architects in the reform of military thought which swept the services, and in particular the Marine Corps, in the 1980’s. From John Boyd we learned about competitive decision making on the battlefield—compressing time, using time as an ally. Thousands of officers in all our services knew John Boyd by his work on what was to be known as the Boyd Cycle or OODA Loop. His writings and his lectures had a fundamental impact on the curriculum of virtually every professional military education program in the United States—and on many abroad. In this way, he touched so many lives, many of them destined to ascend to the highest levels of military and civilian leadership.

Those of us who knew John Boyd the man knew him as a man of character and integrity. His life and values were shaped by a selfless dedication to Country and Service, by the crucible of war, and by an unrelenting love of study. He was the quintessential soldier-scholar—a man whose jovial, outgoing exterior belied the vastness of his knowledge and the power of his intellect. I was in awe of him, not just for the potential of his future contributions but for what he stood for as an officer, a citizen, and as a man.

As I write this, my mind wanders back to that morning in February, 1991, when the military might of the United States sliced violently into the Iraqi positions in Kuwait. Bludgeoned from the air nearly round the clock for six weeks, paralyzed by the speed and ferocity of the attack. The Iraqi army collapsed morally and intellectually under the onslaught of American and Coalition forces. John Boyd was an architect of that victory as surely as if he’d commanded a fighter wing or a maneuver division in the desert. His thinking, his theories, his larger than life influence, were there with us in Desert Storm. He must have been proud of what his efforts wrought.

So, how does one pay homage to a man like John Boyd? Perhaps best by remembering that Colonel Boyd never sought the acclaim won him by his thinking. He only wanted to make a difference in the next war … and he did. That ancient book of wisdom—Proverbs—sums up John’s contribution to his nation: " A wise man is strong, and a man of knowledge adds to his strength; for by wise guidance you will wage your war, and there is victory in a multitude of counselors."* I, and his Corps of Marines, will miss our counselor terribly.

Sincerely,

* Proverbs 24:5-6

C.C. Krulak General,
U. S. Marine Corps
Commandant of the Marine Corps1


But, I'm no gentleman, so I likely can't discern between academic garbage and worthwhile analytical thought.

[Roguish Lawyer]

I don't think you've addressed the issue, Jimbo. I'm sure Col. Boyd was a fine man and I'm not attacking him. I just don't see anything special about this OODA Loop thing. Like many other social science concepts, it just describes something without offering any meaningful practical benefit.

If I'm wrong, let's see some practical applications that make a difference. :)

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Git 'im Jimbo!

[Sneaky SF Dude]

http://www.d-n-i.net/

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/awc-thry.htm#boyd

I haven't jumped into them yet, but these are looking like some good links.

(Watch the Team Sergeant come and kick my ass for over-analyzing it. LOL)

[Solid]

Perhaps it is necessary to describe and analyse the very simple in order to create solid and well-understood building blocks for the more complex? A bit like the use of 'core assumptions' for advanced mathematics (or all mathematics?). The practical benefit might therefore be the ability to use the concept as a tool to decipher other, larger, concepts, or as a looking glass to make sense of observations.

Solid

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Solid
Perhaps it is necessary to describe and analyse the very simple in order to create solid and well-understood building blocks for the more complex? A bit like the use of 'core assumptions' for advanced mathematics (or all mathematics?). The practical benefit might therefore be the ability to use the concept as a tool to decipher other, larger, concepts, or as a looking glass to make sense of observations.

Solid

WTF? Are you posting in your sleep? SPEAK ENGLISH BOY!

[Solid]

Sorry.

What I was trying to say is this:

The OODA loop attempts to describe a very simple and primary process of descision making. When Roguish Lawyer pointed out that it, like many other social science concepts, does not have any 'meaningful practical benefit', I aimed to suggest that by understanding very basic things, like the decision making process, those simple things would then become 'truths'. These 'truths' could be used to either understand larger, more complex related concepts, or indeed simply be used to better understand our own observations.

I'm pretty sure that the above view belongs to a Greek Philosopher, but I can't remember which one. Maybe Socrates??

I hope that the above made sense, and hope that my first post made more sense than all the 'bifurcation' Dr. Linda was talking about... Bifurcate? How about 'halve'?!

Solid

[ktek01]

Originally posted by Solid

all the 'bifurcation' Dr. Linda was talking about... Bifurcate? How about 'halve'?!

Solid

That was making me hungry, I thought she was talking about clams.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Are we going to debate Jimbo's post for real or just play around?

[RipperTOW]

I read as much of that article as I can stomach, but there's only so much pompous, psuedo-scientific, impenetrable drivel I can stand in one read.

All the trappings of science, without one iota of science's usefulness. Only a parade of needlessly complex and pretentious scientific verbiage. I know, I know Jimbo... you're one of the self-appointed shamans of complex concepts and all, but this is even more pretentious (and useless) than the crap that passes off as economics these days - and that's saying a lot!

This article is strong, eh? I guess if technical language and needlessly complex formulations are your benchmark. Otherwise, that essay is so much useless academic masturbation. I really hope this is not indicative of the way most "analysts" are spending their time these days.

"Do not muddy your waters to make them appear deep." -- Nietzsche

[zog]

It's like trying to march through knee-deep mud. And I even tried to run it through PowerPoint to make it easier. More glazed over than a fresh Krispy Kreme.

Gimme a week and I might be able to translate it into something readable. Jeez.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Its not exactly a Conan novel is it?

[zog]

It does have pictures, I'll give it that.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Jimbo,
I read it three times. You're right, I agree with most of it, but this is a very convoluted way of restating the Ranger Creed or Che's Guerrilla Warfare.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Now here in my NY office, and I see that Ripper has my flank and Jimbo is still looking for a practical application of the OODA Loop.

Solid, I'm sorry, but I am a busy guy and I need to focus my efforts on Jimbo today.

[ktek01]

I think I kind of agree with her, being unpredictable and able to adapt to changing situations is a good thing. However if you try to devise a formula to tell you how to wage war you will only become more predictable.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Good point.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Now here in my NY office, and I see that Ripper has my flank and Jimbo is still looking for a practical application of the OODA Loop.

Solid, I'm sorry, but I am a busy guy and I need to focus my efforts on Jimbo today.

And I'm a busy guy who does not have access to the ol NIPRNET all day to answer questions.

Ripper,
Yes, I am posting high-mided-sounding articles in an attempt to muddy the waters of my shallow intellect. (Really, I'm trying to get you to like me).

As Teutates stated, these are old ideas. Gussied up and resold to the organization that likely came up with them in the first place. However, it has at least been my experience that when you revisit old concepts presented in new ways with varied emphasis, you can take formerly marganilized ideas, combine them with more fashionable ideas and come up with an unexplored solution.

I make no claims to be a deep thinker, but I'm not afraid to mine the hard work of others.

To sum up the points of the article: an organization must continually adapt its orientation to survive. Further, the faster you adapt to your environment (information, physical, etc) the more able you are to kill your enemy. This can best be achieved at an individual level, akin to chaos. However, you have to have some kind of common understanding, short of rigid doctrine to be to operate off in order to minimize blue on blue and maintain economy of force. This is the same finding that the 1992 SOLIC conference authors came to in their analysis of whay the Soviets got their asses handed to them in Afghanistan.

Rogue guy, what isn't a practical application of understanding how a person makes decisions? As a lawyer you should be using this shit every day. If you need me to spell it out, we need to start at concepts much more basic than the OODA loop.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Ripper,
Yes, I am posting high-mided-sounding articles ....

We agree on one thing.

[Jimbo]

Can I get you to concede that philosophy is the most useless of all social sciences ever?

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Can I get you to concede that philosophy is the most useless of all social sciences ever?

Not me - I AM the quintessential Warrior - Philosophifizer:D

[Jimbo]

I'm off to PT. I'll check back in later.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Jimbo
I'm off to PT. I'll check back in later.

Poodles and manholes, brother. Poodles and manholes.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Can I get you to concede that philosophy is the most useless of all social sciences ever?

Philosophy is not a social science.

I will certainly concede that what passes for philosophy today is even more useless than that article you posted.

As for philosophy in general, I don't think so. I like to think that Aristotle's discovery of logic has been at least a little useful.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Can I get you to concede that philosophy is the most useless of all social sciences ever?

This one may not have been addressed to me, but philosophy is not science. Philosophy and science are at war with one another -- you are Socrates or Nietzsche, and there is no rational middle ground between those two.

[Roguish Lawyer]

By the way, Jimbo, you still haven't answered my question. :)

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
you are Socrates or Nietzsche, and there is no rational middle ground between those two.

What I just say counselor? Socrates/Nietzche/Ninja

Medic/Philosophifizer/Warrior

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
By the way, Jimbo, you still haven't answered my question. :)
What question is that? You want a practical use for the OODA loop? Its a tool, dude, a model. You use it to understand things. Examples: effects of negative domestic news on a politicians stance on a particular issue. Or maybe you can use it to figure out where the New Yorkers are hiding their Cope.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Or maybe you can use it to figure out where the New Yorkers are hiding their Cope.

Now that's a practical application! :D

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
Philosophy is not a social science.

I will certainly concede that what passes for philosophy today is even more useless than that article you posted.

As for philosophy in general, I don't think so. I like to think that Aristotle's discovery of logic has been at least a little useful.

My apologies. Its a humanities subject, right? Great.

Logic is useful to an extent, but it is also a huge constraint.

What specifically is you beef with the article, aside from its use of big words and my posting it?

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Or maybe you can use it to figure out where the New Yorkers are hiding their Cope. http://www.virginiarangers.com/tom/funny/matrix%20owned.jpg

DAMN!

[Roguish Lawyer]

That your photoshop, Sneaky? Or is it now sNeAkY? LOL:D

(Ducking for cover . . . ):D

[Jimbo]

.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

I stole it like I do everything else. I don't know how to work any of that shit. Its all I can do to post the pics and it took a month and everybody on the baord to get that far. LOL.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Jimbo
.

LMFAOROTL! Pretty good one, Jimbo!

[Sneaky SF Dude]

http://stats.foreverchat.net/owned16.jpg

Damn again. Jimbo OODAd you. LOL

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Damn again. Jimbo OODAd you. LOL

^%$^%$ got inside my OODA Loop. How'd you block his access?

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
^%$^%$ got inside my OODA Loop. How'd you block his access?

HFCUI, but its too late - he has the book. LOL

[Roguish Lawyer]

Back on topic, I don't find the article interesting or useful. That's all.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Back on topic, I don't find the article interesting or useful. That's all.

And THAT'S why he's in your loop.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
And THAT'S why he's in your loop.

I don't think he even understands what I'm saying. He still hasn't answered the question; just changed the subject with a joke.

"If he is in superior strength, evade him." -- SunTzu

Jimbo's got the right idea there.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

LOL - he's gonna come for you now for sure.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
LOL - he's gonna come for you now for sure.

OK, time for a dip then. And I do have to get some work done at some point too . . .

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
I don't think he even understands what I'm saying. He still hasn't answered the question; just changed the subject with a joke.

You have posed no question.

Nelson: "Why are you throwing tomatoes at yourself, huh? Why are you throwing tomatoes at yourself?"
Martin: "Your very question is faulty!"

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Oh, and one more thing: I challenge anyone to give me a single meaningful practical application of this stupid "OODA Loop."

Ok, Trebek.

"Does the OODA Loop have a single meaningful practical application?"

Nothing you've said so far suggests the answer is yes.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Ok, Trebek.

"Does the OODA Loop have a single meaningful practical application?"

Nothing you've said so far suggests the answer is yes.

You want a practical use for the OODA loop? Its a tool, dude, a model. You use it to understand things. Examples: effects of negative domestic news on a politicians stance on a particular issue.

So, yes, the OODA loop can be used to help understand the decision making process of an entity. If you want me to walk you through an example, step by step, you are going to have to cough up some dough for my time.

[Jimbo]

.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Jimbo
You want a practical use for the OODA loop? Its a tool, dude, a model. You use it to understand things. Examples: effects of negative domestic news on a politicians stance on a particular issue.


So, yes, the OODA loop can be used to help understand the decision making process of an entity. If you want me to walk you through an example, step by step, you are going to have to cough up some dough for my time.

1. You can understand "the effects of negative domestic news on a politician's stance on a particular issue" without "understanding" the OODA Loop. That's my point.

2. You don't have to walk me through an example step-by-step unless you want me to think your time is worth paying for. I'm not convinced of that just yet.
;)

3. The People demand Loops for the Loopless!

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Jimbo,
do the Copenhagen one
Cultural traditions - "Yankees don't know copenhagen is good for them"

LOL

[Roguish Lawyer]

Well now, we have an answer! OK, fair illustration. I surrender.

Still didn't get anything out of that article, though! :)

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Jimbo,
do the Copenhagen one
Cultural traditions - "Yankees don't know copenhagen is good for them"

LOL

[ktek01]

Wild West Cowboys don't back away from a fight. LMAO So the OODA Loop is just an explanation of the decision making process. The better you understand the process the quicker you can figure out what action your opponent will take and beat him to the punch. Or get inside his loop.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by ktek01
Wild West Cowboys don't back away from a fight. LMAO So the OODA Loop is just an explanation of the decision making process. The better you understand the process the quicker you can figure out what action your opponent will take and beat him to the punch. Or get inside his loop.

And there you have it.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by ktek01
Wild West Cowboys don't back away from a fight. LMAO So the OODA Loop is just an explanation of the decision making process. The better you understand the process the quicker you can figure out what action your opponent will take and beat him to the punch. Or get inside his loop.
That's it.

[ch0ker]

Originally posted by ktek01
So the OODA Loop is just an explanation of the decision making process. The better you understand the process the quicker you can figure out what action your opponent will take and beat him to the punch. Or get inside his loop.

And somebody was made famous because of this? I'm glad I had never heard of it until today.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by ch0ker
And somebody was made famous because of this? I'm glad I had never heard of it until today.

Not much call for it in tennis, golf or craps.

[ch0ker]

Apparently, with the fourth activity, you see a practical application. I concur.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by ch0ker
And somebody was made famous because of this? I'm glad I had never heard of it until today.
I don't know if 'famous' is the right word for more or less losing your career and being all but forgotten by the service you gave your life to. There were only two uniformed Air Force officers at his funeral. And at least a dozen Marines.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by ch0ker
Apparently, with the fourth activity, you see a practical application. I concur.


Obviously, think about it for a minute. Do you wish you had heard of it before today now?

[ch0ker]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Obviously, think it baout for a minute. Do you wish you had heard of it before today now?

Oh, I suppose I'm a tad bit smarter as a result. But, really, I think it deeper than necessary. I don't refute it. Shit, it is what it is. I just don't find the obvious interesting. That's all.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by ch0ker
I just don't find the obvious interesting. That's all.

Obviously. Didn't I see you and 18X in a post somewhere?

[ch0ker]

I don't know if 'famous' is the right word for more or less losing your career and being all but forgotten by the service you gave your life to. There were only two uniformed Air Force officers at his funeral. And at least a dozen Marines.

Brevity has confused my first post. My post was just stating my opinion that what I quoted:

Originally posted by ktek01
So the OODA Loop is just an explanation of the decision making process. The better you understand the process the quicker you can figure out what action your opponent will take and beat him to the punch. Or get inside his loop.

....is hardly worthy of recognition. Not you ktek01, but the subject of your summary.

[ch0ker]

Doubt it, too old to be interested. REP-63? Yes.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Ok.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Jimbo


PS- (c) Jimbo Industries 2003.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Jimbo
My apologies. Its a humanities subject, right? Great.

Logic is useful to an extent, but it is also a huge constraint.

What specifically is you beef with the article, aside from its use of big words and my posting it?

Specifically my problem is those big words. I've now read most of the article, or enough to get the gist, and I am more convinced than ever that this person is just stating some obvious facts, and a few more subtle points, but certainly nothing profound. But of course, nobody is impressed with just stating the obvious. What impresses are paradigms, models, whatever, that sound veeeeerrrrrry scientific. That's how you get promoted in academia anyway. This guy missed his calling. He should've been an MIT sociology professor.

On this subject, I am a BTDT. I've written a thesis, based on a big computational economic model where I developed an algorithm to test the sensitivity of economic agents' willingness to seek jobs to changes in the level of unemployment insurance benefits available to them. You would've been really impressed. The whole thing was full of calculus, double sigmas, digressions into the randomness that underpin the Monte Carlo aspect of the simulation. I had to buy special software to get all the thetas, alphas, integrals and deltas into the text. It was a tour de force in modern intellectual masturbation. I had some great flow-charts too. In the end, I had 60 pages published, pats on the backs from my professors after I defended the thesis with lots of assurances that it would grease some skids into good grad programs. It's available. Anyone with a sleep disorder should request to borrow the copy from the University of Houston Library (you can do this via your local university library).

But my whole thesis was really just an obvious, basic brute fact: if you pay people enough welfare money they will become de-incentivized towards finding employment - except I wrapped in a lot of academic mumbo jumbo. It was, in other words, a 60-page restatement of an obvious fact. I wasn't happy about it, but that's what it takes to be an economist in academia. That's why I'm in industry. If I just made that statement in class, everyone would have looked at me and said, "so what?" Same with your article. If you strip off that veneer of pretentiousness, what is the ground breaking new idea? I sure can't find one, and I'm not in the least intimidated by topology or bifurcations or differentials - I deal with that stuff all the time at work. So the problem is that the only thing that's really in that article is bunch of big words. Other than that, some of what he says is true but everyone with 4 brain cells to rub together already knows it. Is there some profound message locked within that essay I'm not getting? I'd sure like to hear you explain it if there is. Otherwise, I think about all he's doing is making some pretty mundane, and in several cases incorrect, observations about how people think.

The reason this is a problem is because the article pretends to be something much bigger, as all academic bullshitting (my own thesis included) of this type does. It's really a set of unimpressive observations pretending to be profound. I dislike pretension in intellectual matters for the same reason I dislike pretenders in military matters. If some private goes to the PX and buys himself a Silver Star, he may look like a hero. But he's only dressing himself up in the trappings of heroism to make himself appear to be more than he really is. That is the analog in the military realm to what the OODA loopers of the world do in the intellectual realm. I find it lame and dishonest.

But as you pointed out previously, most of us around here are more "common-thinkers," who don't grasp these complex concepts so well. Maybe it's just me.:rolleyes:

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
Specifically my problem is those big words. I've now read most of the article, or enough to get the gist, and I am more convinced than ever that this person is just stating some obvious facts, and a few more subtle points, but certainly nothing profound. But of course, nobody is impressed with just stating the obvious. What impresses are paradigms, models, whatever, that sound veeeeerrrrrry scientific. That's how you get promoted in academia anyway. This guy missed his calling. He should've been an MIT sociology professor.

On this subject, I am a BTDT. I've written a thesis, based on a big computational economic model where I developed an algorithm to test the sensitivity of economic agents' willingness to seek jobs to changes in the level of unemployment insurance benefits available to them. You would've been really impressed. The whole thing was full of calculus, double sigmas, digressions into the randomness that underpin the Monte Carlo aspect of the simulation. I had to buy special software to get all the thetas, alphas, integrals and deltas into the text. It was a tour de force in modern intellectual masturbation. I had some great flow-charts too. In the end, I had 60 pages published, pats on the backs from my professors after I defended the thesis with lots of assurances that it would grease some skids into good grad programs. It's available. Anyone with a sleep disorder should request to borrow the copy from the University of Houston Library (you can do this via your local university library).

But my whole thesis was really just an obvious, basic brute fact: if you pay people enough welfare money they will become de-incentivized towards finding employment - except I wrapped in a lot of academic mumbo jumbo. It was, in other words, a 60-page restatement of an obvious fact. I wasn't happy about it, but that's what it takes to be an economist in academia. That's why I'm in industry. If I just made that statement in class, everyone would have looked at me and said, "so what?" Same with your article. If you strip off that veneer of pretentiousness, what is the ground breaking new idea? I sure can't find one, and I'm not in the least intimidated by topology or bifurcations or differentials - I deal with that stuff all the time at work. So the problem is that the only thing that's really in that article is bunch of big words. Other than that, some of what he says is true but everyone with 4 brain cells to rub together already knows it. Is there some profound message locked within that essay I'm not getting? I'd sure like to hear you explain it if there is. Otherwise, I think about all he's doing is making some pretty mundane, and in several cases incorrect, observations about how people think.

The reason this is a problem is because the article pretends to be something much bigger, as all academic bullshitting (my own thesis included) of this type does. It's really a set of unimpressive observations pretending to be profound. I dislike pretension in intellectual matters for the same reason I dislike pretenders in military matters. If some private goes to the PX and buys himself a Silver Star, he may look like a hero. But he's only dressing himself up in the trappings of heroism to make himself appear to be more than he really is. That is the analog in the military realm to what the OODA loopers of the world do in the intellectual realm. I find it lame and dishonest.

But as you pointed out previously, most of us around here are more "common-thinkers," who don't grasp these complex concepts so well. Maybe it's just me.:rolleyes:

Maybe you should stop thinking so highly of yourself, quit altogether the mental masturbation, and go back to the FIRST PAGE where there was some discussion about these being old ideas, repackaged.

Don't get all in a huff because I accused you of not being very complex. And don't make it seem that I cast such aspersions on the collective identity of this site. I made my observation based on your either inability or unwillingness to concede that there are shades of grey when it comes to religious extremism or Islamic fundamentalism or whatever was being argued about when I made that comment. If it makes you feel better, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. You are the most complex, intricate and involved person I have ever communicated with.

Now, do you have any problems with the ideas presented in her paper?

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
[i] Otherwise, I think about all he's doing is making some pretty mundane, and in several cases incorrect, observations about how people think.

Wow. Sorry I missed your point. It was buried in there with all those big words and impressive talk about theses.

Now then, what observations about how people think, in your opinion, are incorrect?

[Xdeth]

Sorry to interrupt,

If there is a follow up that includes working models differential or otherwise of "non-linear warfare" that might be interesting and possibly useful. Maybe she leaves that for later or is just echoing something heard at an applied mathematics symposium. Systems Engineers routinely miss or purposefully overlook intractable details on the road to developing broader ideas that may or may not be worth anything, they are the philosophers of the Enigeering fields.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Maybe you should stop thinking so highly of yourself, quit altogether the mental masturbation, and go back to the FIRST PAGE where there was some discussion about these being old ideas, repackaged.

Don't get all in a huff because I accused you of not being very complex. And don't make it seem that I cast such aspersions on the collective identity of this site. I made my observation based on your either inability or unwillingness to concede that there are shades of grey when it comes to religious extremism or Islamic fundamentalism or whatever was being argued about when I made that comment. If it makes you feel better, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. You are the most complex, intricate and involved person I have ever communicated with.

Now, do you have any problems with the ideas presented in her paper?

Not some of them. Stability and adaptability are antithetical - you don't need a model to tell you that. A dictionary will suffice. There are benefits to stability, and benefits to adaptability. There is an obvious necessity to limit change so as not to become entirely predictable, while there is simultaneously a need to maintian enough adaptability to respond to a situation which is not predictable. It's a problem as old as change itself. The real world is non-linear. No problem there. As for the OODA loop, I'd like to pop a few of those little clouds under "Orientation" and think that the author overemphasizes it in the human decision making process (at least as a broad generalization).

That's the problem with non-linear models in the social sciences - they're so unstable that they make great material for a thesis, but the conclusion is always the same: the system is too sensitive to paramaterization to have any predictive value. The reason, IMO, is that as badly as these witch-doctors want to describe people like compressed gas molecules flowing through a system of pipes, there is no way to account for the uniquely human quality of volition in any mathematical model. It works in the physical sciences, but not when people are involved. But don't those bifurcation graphics look nice!

As it relates to human behavior I think linear models, in almost every case I am aware of, provide a more useful model if predictability is your ultimate goal. But they're not in vogue, because the math's not so robust.

I read your statement on the first page about the value of rehashing old ideas. Fine. But why all the pretentiousness. In case you haven't been reading my posts, that is my primary problem with your article. It smacks of pretentiousness. I don't think there is enough in the way of ideas in that article to generate much in the way of discussion.

If you don't like people telling you the article you posted is crap and not addressing any of the "ideas" in the article, then post an article that has some ideas for people to address. Were you really trying to get a dialogue started over the compatibility of stability and adaptability? Give me a break. Or how about the topology of our "Fitness Landscape?" I honestly doubt you even know what in the hell that is really describing. Am I wrong Jimbo? Are you up on mapping the topology of non-linear systems of differential equations? You up on your diff-eq?

I'll tell you what: just give me the first idea that you understand the math behind that "system" (here's a hint: it's a system of differential equations) and I'll concede that you're bringing it in here was not overt pretense on your part. C'mon, speak my language. Show me you understand the math Jimbo. You posted an article on a model here for every one else to see with your strong recommendation, you obviously understand it, right? Show me that you understand it and I'll apologize for ever accusing you of being pretentious. Just give me enough to show me that you've got the knowledge of diff-eq to understand the system, and what terms like instability mean in the context of a system of equations. PM if you don't want to bore everyone.

Until then, I stand on my earlier point.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
there is no way to account for the uniquely human quality of volition in any mathematical model.

Or in your view of the Muslim world.

I don't get math. I can't tell a differential equation from a fractal. But I don't need to to understand that article and your contention to the contrary is a weak.

I am facinated by the following statement. Please, expand on it. Feel free to use all the equations you want:
As for the OODA loop, I'd like to pop a few of those little clouds under "Orientation" and think that the author overemphasizes it in the human decision making process (at least as a broad generalization).


If you don't like the fancy-talk, find an article that discusses the trade offs between stability and adaptability in warfare that even those of us without your commanding knowledge of numbers can wrap our brain around.

[BackInTheDay]

When one has trouble getting his argument to stand on its own merits, one tends to attack personally.

You girls are getting personal and getting away from supporting your arguments.

Back on track please.

(BackInThe Day returns to his Lazy Boy and picks up his popcorn to watch the rest of the "I'm smarter than you" show)

[Scotty]

Have I missed something? While I freely admit I don't read a damn thing any of you write, I thought OODA was "Orthopedic Operational Detachment - Alpha" I thought this was Sneaky, Doc, Two-tit-tays, and the Reaper's old unit.

I thought the "OOD-A Loop" were those from the unit who were "in the know" on things related to that unit.

What the hell have I been missing? Please tell me as I'm lazy and don't want to read back to find out what you're talking about.

Thanks for your support,

Scotty

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Jimbo
This article is strong.

http://www.calresco.org/beckermn/nonlindy.htm

Sun Tzo, John Boyd...if they had just thrown in some Trinquier, I'd have a new bible.

Just quickly read this simple article. It's very clear.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
Just quickly read this simple article. It's very clear.

LOL

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Scotty
Have I missed something? While I freely admit I don't read a damn thing any of you write, I thought OODA was "Orthopedic Operational Detachment - Alpha" I thought this was Sneaky, Doc, Two-tit-tays, and the Reaper's old unit.

I thought the "OOD-A Loop" were those from the unit who were "in the know" on things related to that unit.

What the hell have I been missing? Please tell me as I'm lazy and don't want to read back to find out what you're talking about.

Thanks for your support,

Scotty

LOL

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by BackInTheDay
When one has trouble getting his argument to stand on its own merits, one tends to attack personally.

You girls are getting personal and getting away from supporting your arguments.

Back on track please.

(BackInThe Day returns to his Lazy Boy and picks up his popcorn to watch the rest of the "I'm smarter than you" show)

LOL - no worries, just two pitbulls pissing on trees in the same park.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

"If Edward N. Luttwak warrants high praise for his rigorous examination of the workings of paradox as key to 'the universal logic that conditions all forms of war', John Boyd deserves at least honorable mention for his discovery of the 'OODA loop'."
...

"Just as Luttwak's logic of paradox permeates all levels and kinds of conflict, so Boyd's loop can apply to the operational, strategic, and political levels ofwar, as well as to tactics for aerial dogfights.
...

"The OODA loop may appear too humble to merit categorization as grand theory, but that is what it is. It has an elegant simplicity, an extensive domain of applicability, and contains a high quality of insight about strategic essentials, such that its author well merits honorable mention as an outstanding general theorist of strategy. The ambitious reach of Boyd's isnight is conveyed by this briefing note:

Strategy
penetrate adversary's moral-mental-physical being to dissolve hid moral fiber, disorient his mental images, disrupt his operations and overload his sytem, as well as subvert, shatter, seize, or otherwise subdue, those moral-mental-physical bastions, connections, or activities that he depends upon, in order to destroy internal harmony, produce paralysis, and collapse adversary's will to resist."

[Polar Bear]

Originally posted by Scotty
What the hell have I been missing? Please tell me as I'm lazy and don't want to read back to find out what you're talking about.

Thanks for your support,

Scotty

Scotty,
It all started off with me tripping over my shoelaces. I did not know how to tie them. Papa Sneaky had to fly up and give me remedial training. It still did not work so he bought me some Velcro gym shoes…Oh you mean the discussion going on, it is interesting, you should read some of the articles posted. It is about, out thinking your opponent and winning the fight and/or business decision. It is somewhat more in-depth then that but that is the tall and skinny of it. I am still trying to digest it all.
:D

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Its about strategy and strategizin' and what not.

[Sigi]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
LOL - no worries, just two pitbulls pissing on trees in the same park.

Pretty impressive dialouge at that.

I don't know too much about all the fancy words and 'dif-eq', but it seems Ripper has been pretty straightforward with what he disagrees with.

[Xdeth]

Even in the physical world non-linear systems are hyper constrained in order to study their behavior or make some predictions in the small portions of the phase space. Predicting the weather I think is a good example of this, the weather is accurately predicted most of the time within a 5 or 6 day time frame.

[Scotty]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Its about strategy and strategizin' and what not.

What in tarnation is "STRAGEDY"? You want something done: "Hey, PVT! 'Member back when we stuck knives on the end of the guns and ran yelling and pokin' it inta things?"

"Yeah, ah think ah do."

"Go poke that Ay-rab over there like'en ya did back then."

"Okie dokie, Sarge."

How inna hell does that require STRAGEDY?

Scotty

[RipperTOW]

This is one thread that could use a good hijack.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
This is one thread that could use a good hijack.
Giving up? :D

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
This is one thread that could use a good hijack.
Giving up? :D

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Giving up? :D

LOL, I don't even know what the argument is.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Me either.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
LOL, I don't even know what the argument is.
Yeah, keeping track of things really wears ya out. Whoo, hard work.

Ripper was asked which clouds under "orientation" he would pop and, if he had the calculations handy, why.

I'm glad I don't have to do this shit for a living. Well, back to the beer cozy factory.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

What do calculations have to do with the orientation clouds?

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
What do calculations have to do with the orientation clouds?
Not a thing. It was my immature jab at Ripper for implying that one must have a firm grasp on all thing mathematical in order to have an opinion on the referenced article.

I get a little punchy when people misquote me in attempt to redirect a discussion..

[RipperTOW]

I've put far more into addressing this article than it deserves already. I'm sure you can dig out what objections to the "Orientation" phase of your little OODA loop I would object to if you care enough to read back through some of my prior posts.

Are we going to have to take this to the pugil stick pit, or what Jimbo?

http://www.snapfastener.com/PugilStick/Defaul23.jpg

Don't make me break out "The Terminator."

:p

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by Jimbo
I get a little punchy when people misquote me in attempt to redirect a discussion..

...or point out your pretentiousness, LOL.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
I've put far more into addressing this article than it deserves already. I'm sure you can dig out what objections to the "Orientation" phase of your little OODA loop I would object to if you care enough to read back through some of my prior posts.

Are we going to have to take this to the pugil stick pit, or what Jimbo?

http://www.snapfastener.com/PugilStick/Defaul23.jpg

Don't make me break out "The Terminator."

:p

Ok. You the man. This was awesome. I'm off to have a burrito and go to work.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
...or point out your pretentiousness, LOL.
if you mis-quote me in an attempt to point out my pretentiousness, does that mean I'm not pretentious, logic-boy?

[RipperTOW]

I'll think about it. :D

In the mean time, I take it back. Go get your burrito.

[Xdeth]

So in conclusion, if you can't easily use your models to cull the state space and weed out low probability events, or generate reasonable predictions under specific paramterization, then they are uselss tools except to guarantee repeatability. Now where are the case studies?

[Footmobile]

This thread makes my head hurt.

[Sigi]

I didn't follow everything in the article, but RipperTow brought it into perspective for me.

Jimbo and RipperTow - I have never heard a debate that was this intense or felt so important.

Both of you offered a startling display of intellect.

I am new here, and I would have to say that RipperTow BLEW ME AWAY. (No offense Jimbo)

Absolutely the most intimidating prose I have EVER seen. (Mostly because Ripper showed how intelligent he is without losing me - he uses large words as well as simple, articulate, basic examples.)

I have read RipperTow and Jimbo before. Both have the superior intelliect to articulate what is beyond my grasp. That may not be hard, but both (sometimes Jimbo) express thier position so that I may understand.

Like it really matters - But RipperTow is extremely easy to follow.

And not once did these two attack personally.

Outstanding exchange!

[RipperTOW]

Jimbo taught me everything I know. And XDeth is smarter than both of us put together. That's to say nothing of Sneaky, who is being recruited for an honorary chair at Harvard.

LOL, you should write stuff like that more often, Sigi. In fact, can I borrow that post for my signature?:D :D :D

[Sneaky SF Dude]

I'm just a dumbass hillbilly - I agree about XDeth - although he is an X-clusionist at times:D

I think you have a fan club Ripper. LOL

My personal favorite - "I am new here, and I would have to say that RipperTow BLEW ME AWAY. (No offense Jimbo)"

[Sigi]

[i]

My personal favorite - "I am new here, and I would have to say that RipperTow BLEW ME AWAY. (No offense Jimbo)" [/B]

I meant the intellectual thou..........ah, forget it. I figured Sneaky would cut me at the knees. *sniff, sniff*

(Going back to the intellectual basement.)

[Xdeth]

I had help after reviewing an old textbook, I failed the class after failing to attend past the fifth week. I plan on re-taking it one day, seriously....

ISBN 0-534-34550-6

[ch0ker]

It's over?

Jimbo, next time....shillelagh. K' pal. :) Though, you're probably rested after making Ripper do the gymnastics. Props.

Ripper, after further consideration, that makes what used to be here retractable. You don't get smiley's.

Xdeth, you didn't even pick a side???? Nice. The real winner!

Sneaky, I'll shut up now.

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by ch0ker
Ripper, ... Fucker.

Whoever you are:

Next time you call me a fucker you better put about 5 smiley faces at the end of it.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Xdeth
So in conclusion, if you can't easily use your models to cull the state space and weed out low probability events, or generate reasonable predictions under specific paramterization, then they are uselss tools except to guarantee repeatability. Now where are the case studies?
Can I use this as a jumping off point for how much I hate computer modeling and war gaming? Specifically, the cultures that grow up around these two subject areas? Talk about a class of people in desperate need of a wedgie...

[Jimbo]

Oh, yes...I'd also like to take this opportunity to say 'sorry' to anyone who has read this thread. Total waste of your time. Carry on.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Xdeth
ISBN 0-534-34550-6
New: $111.95
Used: $11.00

What's with the low resale value?

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
Whoever you are:

Next time you call me a fucker you better put about 5 smiley faces at the end of it.

Holy Mary Mother of God!

[Xdeth]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Can I use this as a jumping off point for how much I hate computer modeling and war gaming? Specifically, the cultures that grow up around these two subject areas? Talk about a class of people in desperate need of a wedgie...

Heh heh, well wherever you have model of something computer scientists are bound to be found nearby looking for a way to optimize it, declare it infeasable, or turn it into a porn site.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Can I use this as a jumping off point for how much I hate computer modeling and war gaming? Specifically, the cultures that grow up around these two subject areas? Talk about a class of people in desperate need of a wedgie...

I like war gaming - but not the geeks that made a sub-culture out of it. I like to war game, then go shoot somebody in the face while completely ignoring the just developed plan.

Don't know about computer modeling.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Don't know about computer modeling.
Lots of war gaming crap is tied in with modeling and simulation now.

edit: meh

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Sounds like anything, have to know who to invite.

[NewportBarGuy]

Anyone picking on Jimbo is going to face my full wrath.

Someone stole my thesaurus, so I had to translate this entire post through Boolean Logic, and then through SirLinksALot, then I had to post it on the MTV Real World message board for input on the OODA Loop, followed by posting the counter argument(s) on a teletubbies message board (Thanks Xdeth) to gain a better insight.

I have Jimbo's back. Ask him about my amazing gun handling skills. He even has pics.

Chicken Ch0ker... Ever talk like that to Ripper again and you'll find yourself very unhappy.

Topic shift to War Games? Are we talking Matthew Broderick or HALO?

[Bravo_One_Three]

I think now is a good time for this:

[NewportBarGuy]

Coolest... Guy... Ever...

Did he live 5 days past that pic?

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by ch0ker
Ripper, ... You don't get smiley's.

Awwww, pleeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzz

What ARNG unit are you talking to? 20th? Where and when are you getting started? PM.

[Solid]

Is that shadow or has the guy in the picture actually wet himself?

Great, great thread.

As for 'war gamers':
I remember this one incident in a gaming magazine (PC Gamer) two years ago. PC Gamer has a set of field 'experts' who have columns at the end of the magazine. One is called 'Desktop General' or something to that effect. In one magazine he was talking about a battle (I'm sorry, I can't remember which) in which a US island garrison was lost to Japanese tanks (I think?). Either way, he talked about the battle in reality, the 'failings' of the tacticians and men fighting for that garrison, and then said that he had achieved success 'in game'.

His next column consisted mostly of a letter. 'Dear Sir-', it read 'I was one of the men garrisoned on that island when it was taken by the Japanese'. It continued to explain more of the battle, the mistakes that the General made, and then expressed anger and sadness at the fact that the General had based an extremely controversial statement, one which directly accused the garrison of inefficiency, on his successes in a video game.

The Desktop General apologized.

So, yes. Wedgies for all !!

Having said that, the US Army apparently developed a game that is to be used for MOUT training. The engine is now being used to create a game for the XBOX called 'Full Spectrum Warrior'. Should be interesting.

Anyway, just wanted to say that,

Great posting!

Solid

[MK19 (mod 3)]

Solid, if you make it to a Ranger Battalion, I am going to track down your TM Leader and make certain that you are fucked with relentlessly. I will copy ALL of your threads from this site and recommend 25+1 push-ups for every word over 3 syllables.

Fuck it...If you make it through RIP, pm me your Batt Assignment and I'll re-enlist and smoke your wordy ass myself. Better hope you don't get 1st Batt: I'll have the CSM find you personally.

Can you hear the whoop whoop of a blurry black object in the far distance....Sounds like its inbound.

[MK19 (mod 3)]

Originally posted by Solid

So, yes. Wedgies for Sneaky!!



Whats that supposed to mean?

[MK19 (mod 3)]

This is the actual definition from dic.com:

wedg·ie ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wj)
n.

1. A shoe having a wedge-shaped heel joined to a half sole so as to form a continuous undersurface. Often used in the plural.

2. The condition of having one's clothing stuck between the buttocks, often from having had one's pants or underwear pulled up as a prank.

[ch0ker]

Chicken Ch0ker... Ever talk like that to Ripper again and you'll find yourself very unhappy.

I probably should have told Ripper he was on my buddy list, indicating some respect for the fella', before I called him a fucker (jokingly, I might add).

As far as you, NBG, you could have given that advice while leaving out chicken. We'll chaulk it up to cyber balls. This time.

[Scotty]

I've run out of things to say now.

Ripper, smart. Jimbo, smart. NBG, can't spell SPAM. Tarzan good, fire bad.

Scotty

[RipperTOW]

Originally posted by ch0ker
I probably should have told Ripper he was on my buddy list, indicating some respect for the fella', before I called him a fucker (jokingly, I might add).

As far as you, NBG, you could have given that advice while leaving out chicken. We'll chaulk it up to cyber balls. This time.

LOL, no worries. See PM.

[ch0ker]

Originally posted by RipperTOW
LOL, no worries. See PM.

Okay, here're the smiley's, Fucker :) :) :) :) :) LOL!

PM back at ya'.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

So who won?

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
So who won?

Can't you let this thread die? :mad: LOL

Ripper and I won. Duh!

[Sneaky SF Dude]

No.

Actually I came back to pledger..pladge..copy some of what Jimbo posted. I'm planning a contingency to attack Arizona in case that Team Sergeant does actually get my boots. He's been awful quiet lately. Nothing tripping EWDs yet, but he's a guerrilla fighter, so I gots to be prepa..prap..ready.

[C-M-R]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude


Actually I came back to pledger..pladge..copy...

plagiarize

The thesaurus that other medic got me for Christmas a couple years ago comes in handy.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

It was my hillbilly act.

[C-M-R]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
It was my hillbilly act.

I hate it when you do that. I waste good toe picking time looking those words for you and you don't need it or appreciate my efforts.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
It was my hillbilly act.

Act? :D

I hear that Teutates often is completely immobilized in front of his BBQ for 45 minutes at a time, if that helps with your planning. I know I'm just a spectator and should keep my mouth shut about these things, but I can't help suggesting that you call in an air strike while he's in front of that BBQ. Better not to get within his range, I would think! :)

[ktek01]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
No.

Actually I came back to pledger..pladge..copy some of what Jimbo posted. I'm planning a contingency to attack Arizona in case that Team Sergeant does actually get my boots. He's been awful quiet lately. Nothing tripping EWDs yet, but he's a guerrilla fighter, so I gots to be prepa..prap..ready.

LOL, working on your Mel Tillis bit?:p

[Teutates]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Act? :D

I hear that Teutates often is completely immobilized in front of his BBQ for 45 minutes at a time, if that helps with your planning. I know I'm just a spectator and should keep my mouth shut about these things, but I can't help suggesting that you call in an air strike while he's in front of that BBQ. Better not to get within his range, I would think! :)

RL,

While my attention may be focused on the “grill” that does not insinuate that I have let my defenses “down.” (You take me for an amateur?)

I have two support troops that constantly watch my “six” and both have received the necessary training to “deal” with most unforeseen circumstances. (Sneaky should be so fortunate.)

The only hindrance I experience with said support troops is the fact they are only two years of age and both have difficulty reloading M-4 magazines. Soon, (with Master Sergeant Teutates instruction) they will find reloading magazines as easy as shooting 1000 meter targets.

Teutates

[Anakin]

[Teutates]

Originally posted by DeadlyAnakinSkywalker
Many people can discuss War but surely the only people who can truly have a valid and accurate view on War are the ones who've been to War, engaged in Combat and seen the effects of War. That seems obvious but I believe it to be totally true.

When my Grandfather talks to me about War, I listen cause he was at War for 3 years and no matter how many movies I watch, I'll never know what it's like.

DAS,
Do me a favor, post less read more. Change your screenname and your avatar. Post when you have a question.

Teutates

[Anakin]

[RIT_MEDIC]

DAS:

PM one of the Admins and ASK him to change your screenname for you. Be careful in your choosing a new one though.

James

[Teutates]

Originally posted by DeadlyAnakinSkywalker
Sure.. how do I change my screenname though Sir? Change it to just "AnakinSkywalker" if you would Please? Thankyou.

PM sent.

I'm sure if you ask nice an admin will help you out. Tell them I sent you.

Teutates

[Anakin]

[Bandaid]

Originally posted by Teutates
I have two support troops ...The only hindrance I experience with said support troops is the fact they are only two years of age and both have difficulty reloading M-4 magazines. Soon, (with Master Sergeant Teutates instruction) they will find reloading magazines as easy as shooting 1000 meter targets.
Teutates

Teutates-
Will you send me the field manuals you developed for your 0-3 mos old training period ? I want to give my little ones every advantage... What would the standards be for PT scores at that age? How long did you wait before you had them doing overnight ruck marches with a hand drawn map and a compass ONLY? ;) :D :D :D
If yours need their "six" watched in the Gulf of Ms area.... look for these two warriors. LOL Crap..another Hiijacking:D

[Teutates]

Originally posted by Bandaid
Teutates-
Will you send me the field manuals you developed for your 0-3 mos old training period ? I want to give my little ones every advantage... What would the standards be for PT scores at that age? How long did you wait before you had them doing overnight ruck marches with a hand drawn map and a compass ONLY? ;) :D :D :D
If yours need their "six" watched in the Gulf of Ms area.... look for these two warriors. LOL Crap..another Hiijacking:D

Ok, they should have completed Airborne school by now and concluded SFAS.

While 292 on the Armed Forces APFT is not required they should have at least scored a 240.

Weapons qual should demonstrate a proficiency with all shoulder fired weapon and include a basic knowledge of 93% of foreign weapons systems.

I could write more concerning the topic of discussion, but OPSEC precludes me from writing supplementary training prerequisites.

I hope this helps and I have included my support troops pics, again OPSEC prevents me from revealing their true identities.

Teutates

[MikeC2W]

Very nice. By the looks of it they've gone over the fence.

Beautiful girls dude.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

They look just like their Dad, black bar over the face and all :D

You're a very lucky man Team Sergeant, as am I.

Junior Medic has the flu, so we will delay the execution order for a later date (when he has the flu, he coughs during the stalk. He's only nine and hasn't learned to control it yet. His Gung Fu is excellent though.)

Plus Osama Bin Mama's been in a really good mood since Ramadan started, so we're expecting activity near the base camp. Now's not a good time for extended long range patrols.

[Anakin]

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Anakin
Many people can discuss War but surely the only people who can truly have a valid and accurate view on War are the ones who've been to War, engaged in Combat and seen the effects of War. That seems obvious but I believe it to be totally true.

When my Grandfather talks to me about War, I listen cause he was at War for 3 years and no matter how many movies I watch, I'll never know what it's like.

Are you under the influence?

[Anakin]

[Bandaid]

Beautiful girls..... except for those black birthmarks across their eyes!! LOL I am dure Doc T can get rid of those surgically when prom comes around.

I see they must have already been through a mountaineering course therefore requiring ALL of those gates. :D

[Sneaky SF Dude]

The older girl appears to have either a GPS (which I doubt, Teutates would still have them on terrain association - no crutches) or some kind of remote firing device.

The little one is obviously holding a ring of det cord disguised as a tractor wheel.

Note the camo - pigtails to present a benign and disarming appearance. I have no doubt they have been trained to use every item in the playpen as a weapon.

Also notice the sniper hide veil behind them - ready at a moment's notice to disappear and blend into the environment.

[Teutates]

anakin.

Shut up.

You need not answer all posts.

Move out and draw fire.

Remember what I told you.

Teutates

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Training hard - notice how the pants match the drapes and the top blends with the blinds. Shortly after this picture was taken, he stepped back and it took me a week to find him.
Correction made.

[Bandaid]

Ahhhhh.. to be a proud Dad. Strapping young chap there SneakySF. Is he HALO qualified yet or simply a "little grasshopper" ninja in training. :cool:

[Sneaky SF Dude]

No Ninja - he does Gung Fu to keep his mind right. his real training can't not be shown in photos - you wouldn't be able to see him.

He's done ground training in HALO - he jumps off the dresser onto the bed. We're still looking for the right platform for accelerated free fall - the roof is only three stories.

Completely bi-lingual English/Spanish. He's got the phonetic alphabet down, but his code is only about 5/5.

[Bandaid]

WTF????

Did you take his picture off Socnet? wait, he must be practicing his art again, nevermind. SneakySF Kid :D LOL

[Teutates]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Training hard - notice how the pants match the drapes and the top blends with the blinds. Shortly after this picture was taken, he stepped back and it took me a week to find him.

I will have to report this breech of OPSEC to higher. You have violated an “operators” ID and will now be set upon by the forces to be.

I am however surprised by the fact you found the “operator” in only one week after he slipped away in complete daylight. I will utilize that as a teaching point.

The operator in question should be veiled as such:

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Thank you Team Sergeant. I don't know how to do the bars yet. Its not the Operator's fault, his handler isn't up to snuff.

He doesn't mind being photoed in mufti. When he's operational it pisses him off though.

He's not ready to tangle with the "Support Troops" - girls scare him. LOL

[MikeC2W]

You guys are killing me, Sneaky...that pic is awesome.

My little guy finished his first road march this evening. For the first time ever, he crawled about 6 feet. Away from his mother over to me! I was very proud, next week we're doing a ruck run.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by MikeC2W
You guys are killing me, Sneaky...that pic is awesome.

My little guy finished his first road march this evening. For the first time ever, he crawled about 6 feet. Away from his mother over to me! I was very proud, next week we're doing a ruck run.

LOL - Hooyah! I ended my last road march crawling about 6 feet. LOL

Good for him!

[Bandaid]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude

He's not ready to tangle with the "Support Troops" - girls scare him. LOL

My two will have no such problem with troop coordination. They will be familiar with both the Yen and the Yang..... :cool:

[Bandaid]

hitting the rack... I have enjoyed this. :D

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Outstanding Sacamuelas. Instant sparring partners. LOL

I'm out too.

Stand to 05:30

[ch0ker]

.

[ktek01]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Thank you Team Sergeant. I don't know how to do the bars yet. Its not the Operator's fault, his handler isn't up to snuff.


Same way you add tag lines to photos, only in black.

[Bravo_One_Three]

This is the Coxwain, The Scout Swimmer, and the Port-Side #1/Ground Watch.

Bear in mind, these guys are so HSLD that this is a picture of thier shadows... the photographer was detained and sent to Gitmo as a routine precaution.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Outstanding boat crew!

[MikeC2W]

Here's my guy prepping for a Halloween neighborhood infilitration.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Beautiful boy!

[Teutates]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Beautiful boy!

That's "Beautiful Soldier!"

(I see a serious lack of orange cammie missing from hands face and neck. Hopefully even withou it, the mission was a success.)

Teutates

[shadowflyer]

Here is daddy's lil princess...:) Dangit ..it didnt show up...

[shadowflyer]

Daddy and his lil princess....Edit for PERSEC/DADDYSEC

[shadowflyer]

Here are my 2 lil ones....yes I am a proud daddy ...:D Edit for PERSEC

[lrd]

What's with the black bar? Aviators do their OPSEC/PERSEC with STYLE!!! :D

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Teutates
Ok, they should have completed Airborne school by now and concluded SFAS.

While 292 on the Armed Forces APFT is not required they should have at least scored a 240.

Weapons qual should demonstrate a proficiency with all shoulder fired weapon and include a basic knowledge of 93% of foreign weapons systems.

I could write more concerning the topic of discussion, but OPSEC precludes me from writing supplementary training prerequisites.

I hope this helps and I have included my support troops pics, again OPSEC prevents me from revealing their true identities.

Teutates

Beautiful girls, Teutates. I'm glad to see we're not the only family that turned our house into a cage for childproofing purposes. LOL. I'd post photos of my boys, but I can't figure out how to put that bar over their eyes. :) They're about the same age as your girls (one is 3, the other 1 1/2).

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Beautiful young troopers all around. Congratulations guys.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Beautiful young troopers all around. Congratulations guys.

Yours too Sneaky. Better keep your promise to that kid, 'cause it looks like he'll beat you senseless if you don't! LOL

[Teutates]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Beautiful girls, Teutates. I'm glad to see we're not the only family that turned our house into a cage for childproofing purposes. LOL. I'd post photos of my boys, but I can't figure out how to put that bar over their eyes. :) They're about the same age as your girls (one is 3, the other 1 1/2).

LOL, I wish I could say the “indoor fence” was there for child proofing. One of those young soldiers (which shall remain nameless for purposes of National Security) can/would/could scale that barrier in 2 seconds flat.

The fence is now there for a physical reminder and to keep the dog from eating their Scooby snacks.

The day is fast approaching that one of the two (or both in collusion) will breech that barrier without tripping any of the EWD’s and alerting me to their attempted foray into unexplored territory.

Teutates the Vigilant

[Bandaid]

This will be my last post like this, so I don't eat up JR's bandwidth to much.

Teutates and SNeakySF Dude:
After briefing my two with your suggestions and inspirations from your soldier examples, I caught my two attempting to emulate them. I have now restricted them from the web and will no longer allow them to have access to "older" soldier's experiences until they have mastered the basics. :D They almost skipped over all the soldiering and went straight into the Black ops. Thank god I caught them...... they should wait until they are 6 mos at least, right? :D

[Teutates]

Originally posted by Bandaid
Teutates and SNeakySF Dude:
After briefing my two with your suggestions and inspirations from your soldier examples, I caught my two attempting to emulate them. I have now restricted them from the web and will no longer allow them to have access to "older" soldier's experiences until they have mastered the basics. :D They almost skipped over all the soldiering and went straight into the Black ops. Thank god I caught them...... they should wait until they are 6 mos at least, right? :D

That brought tears to my eyes and coffee through my nose.

Teutates

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Teutates
The day is fast approaching that one of the two (or both in collusion) will breech that barrier without tripping any of the EWD’s and alerting me to their attempted foray into unexplored territory.

Teutates the Vigilant

Our family room used to have a 3.5-foot half wall separating it from the living room, which is an adjacent room with a 20-foot-high ceiling. The drop-off from the top of the half wall to the living room below is about 10 feet, so we installed a wrought-iron fence on top of the half-wall. Totally ruins the look of the house even though the fence is painted white -- looks like a big cage. But the idea of having a little kid break his neck falling from one level to the next made it easy to justify the fence.

Now my three-year-old is easily climbing up to the fence and pulling himself on top of it -- preparing to jump 13 feet down to the next level. Deterrence is now the only option, as I'm not extending that fence all the way to the &^%*&^% ceiling. LOL

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Deterrence is now the only option, as I'm not extending that fence all the way to the &^%*&^% ceiling. LOL

negative. teach him to do a proper PLF. 13 feet ain't shit.

[Bandaid]

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
negative. teach him to do a proper PLF. 13 feet ain't shit.

LOL The requirements the Team Sergeant sent to me require successful 20 ft. landings by the age of 9 mos. :eek:http://herbertholeman.com/para/images/plf.gif

**edited: this does not use the bandwidth up as I used the image link button and not the attachment option, therefore my word is still good from my prior post. LOL:cool:

[Roguish Lawyer]

Here's the drop in question:

[Roguish Lawyer]

My oldest:

[Roguish Lawyer]

My youngest (thanks to Teutates for the fieldcraft):