Che Impact [Archive] - SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network

RipperTOW

2 December 2003, 15:56

Not to change the subject, but do you see Hugo Chavez as being cut from the same cloth as Guevarra? Or, at least trying to fashion himself this way - as a kind of Guevarra that made it to the top? I don't think Chavez is so much an idealist as a megalomaniac with a touche of Don Quixote Syndrome. Maybe Che really was an idealist (in the butcherous, Leon Trotsky sense of the word), I don't really know. Does anyone see what's going on with Chavez as a sign of a kind of rennaissance of insurgencies with Marxist or populist bents in Latin America?

Seven or eight years ago, the financial world was hailing Venezuela as the next rising star. Venezuela today looks to me to have been a very fragile debutant, whose promise was shattered by what, by historical standards, was a garden variety economic downturn. At the first sign of trouble, it appears they are falling back on the same old anti-Imperialist dogma. Is the emergence of someone like Hugo Chavez a harbinger of things to come?

Sigi

2 December 2003, 16:02

Originally posted by rmediver2002
Better than most sites I have seen....

http://www.popsubculture.com/pop/bio_project/ernesto_che_guevara.html

Thanks rmediver2002

Sneaky SF Dude

2 December 2003, 16:04

I see Chavez as a Castro-wannabe. I think he might be frustrated by not having had a revolution to carry him to the top. I think he is a simple minded populist, same cut as Lula (but not as smart), Guterrez in Ecuador (but smarter), etc. There is definitely a wave of populists being elected.

Jimbo

2 December 2003, 16:11

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
I see Chavez as a Castro-wannabe.
They are all trying to cast themselves in the mold of Bolivar. I wonder if it irks them that a statue of him is in Washington DC?

Sneaky SF Dude

2 December 2003, 16:11

Originally posted by Scorpion6
was Speaker of the House at that time. (1987)

You know what's funny? I can't find a copy of the "Dear Comandante" letter anywhere on the internet.

Scorpion6

2 December 2003, 16:16

There is nothing that I can find that link the two individuals. All searches revert back to the Castro/Ortega meeting on Aug. 13 1987.

That and all bullets point to Iran/Contra.

Sneaky SF Dude

2 December 2003, 16:20

I found references to the letter, but not the actual letter.

Scorpion6

2 December 2003, 16:23

Here ya go Sir Sneaky.

Dear Comandante (Fidel): More than 30 years ago our fathers bid us farewell; they left to continue the ideals of Bolivar, of Marti; a continent united and independent. They also did not see this triumph. They were aware that it takes great sacrifices to achieve great dreams. We never saw them again. At that time we were very young; now we are men and women, who are at this moment living through much pain and sorrow. We know how things occurred and we suffer. Today we receive their remains; they do not come defeated; they come as heroes forever young, valiant and strong. Nobody can take that way from us; they will always remain alive among their sons and their people. They knew that they could always return to their people and that our people would receive them with love; and that our love would heal their wounds; they knew that you would still be their friend, their leader.
That is why Comandante we ask you to have the honor of receiving their remains; because far from being our fathers they are the sons of the people that you so proudly represent; receive your comrades in arms, your companions. We also would gladly give of our lives.
To eternal victory.
Liberty or death, we shall overcome!

RipperTOW

2 December 2003, 16:24

Sneaky SF Dude

2 December 2003, 16:24

That's not it - LOL. It was one Wright and nine other libs sent to Ortega.

Scorpion6

2 December 2003, 16:26

This one was from Guevara's daughter to Castro.
I'll keep looking.

Jimbo

2 December 2003, 16:28

Originally posted by RipperTOW
:D
That is fantastic.

Sneaky SF Dude

2 December 2003, 16:33

Excellent work Ripper

Scorpion6

2 December 2003, 16:47

The meeting happened at the same time that the Vatican Assembly visited. Feb. 17 1986.

I don't believe I have ever had to search this hard just to find a scarce referrence to something.
Or was it on Nov. 13 1987 when Ortega was in Washington to meet with Wright and the Vatican Assembly again?

Damn it!

Bandaid

2 December 2003, 17:04

haven't found the actual letter either.
here is a reference to it....
Then congressman now Senator Robert Torricelli joined with then Speaker of the House Jim Wright (D., Texas) and others in a fawning letter to Sandinista strong man Daniel Ortega. "We have been, and remain," the 1984 letter read, "opposed to U.S. support for military action directed against the people or government of Nicaragua." They then praised the man who was importing Soviet tanks, missiles, and anti-aircraft guns in record numbers for "reducing" press censorship -- though they acknowledged how difficult this must be "in the midst of ongoing military hostilities on the borders of Nicaragua."

still looking. Is this what you are referring to Sir Sneaky?

Sneaky SF Dude

2 December 2003, 17:07

That's it. Think Jim Wright wiped the internet?

jsmurphy

2 December 2003, 17:16

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
That's it. Think Jim Wright wiped the internet?

Or maybe Al Gore did when he invented it.

Scorpion6

2 December 2003, 17:17

Somebody's keeping this damned thing close to their person.

rmediver2002

2 December 2003, 21:21

Nobody could find anything on it?

I found a couple pages refering to it but never found the document.

Lexus Nexus only pulled from 1985 and on, the letter was 1984 according to the other pages.

lrd

2 December 2003, 21:32

Originally posted by rmediver2002
Nobody could find anything on it?

I found a couple pages refering to it but never found the document.

Lexus Nexus only pulled from 1985 and on, the letter was 1984 according to the other pages. Ditto. I found many references, but no letter.

2 December 2003, 23:24

The report is accurate in that the death of Che stopped what would have otherwise have been a Viet Nam/Cambodia/Laos in South America. The 7th SF Group did a lot of good in training, organizing, and directing the soldiers who actually killed Che (they are the "Green Berets" mentioned in the report). What was left in South America was internal conflicts, the Maoist Shining Path is still active in Peru today, but after the 7th SFGA built up indigious forces to the point where there was no chance of communist cross-border operations.

There have been -- probably always will be -- civil conflict within almost every South American country, hell, there were armed peasants revolting against in Mexico recently. but they are small and isolated, not supported from the outside like when Cuba/USSR was supporting Che.

So I think the report was accurate not so much for the singular effect of the death of Che, but because of the force development that caused his death.

PSYWAR 1-0

3 December 2003, 00:47

Splitting hairs here, but wasnt it 8th group who did the training? I know they were redesignated as 3/7 right around that time, but I thought it was after Che got wacked.

3 December 2003, 01:15

Psywar:

Don't know, I wasn't there in the 60's (I was assigned to the 7th SFGA in July 1975). Team room chat was that the 7th Group claimed to have been the trainers for the shooters, but that could have been the personalities, not the unit.

We had 1st and 2nd Bns at Bragg, 3rd Bn in Panama.
When I was there our AOR was Korea since 1st Group on Okinawa had been inactivated.

bikewrench8541

3 December 2003, 01:21

From what I've read about Che Guevara in Bolivia it almost reads like Don Quixote. Nearly no support from Cuba or the USSR except for a few locally recruited peasants (potentially good fighters) and a few 'townie' intellectuals (really completely useless) and at least one double. This is based on the book by the CIA operative who was the interrogator trainer with the Bolivian Army at the time.
(I'm sorry but I can't find the book, but he served in Cuba, Vietnam, El Sal and maybe Guatamala)
Anyway it was interesting that he (the CIA op) thought that Che was a 'True believer' and felt sorry for him as he knew that he was to be executed. Knowing that they would lose valuable intel. was part of it. But, the interesting part was the author was an upper middle class Cuban who lost everything.
He does wear Che Guevaras watch still.
When I find it I'll post it. Guy was covert in Cuba for the Bay of Pigs and before.

ratamojada

3 December 2003, 03:00

Felix Rodriguez was the name of the CIA operative on the ground at the time of Che's capture.

PSYWAR 1-0

3 December 2003, 06:52

From Global Security website:
"At the same time Special Forces were expanding into Latin America. In May 1962, the advance party from Company D, 7th Special Forces Group departed for Fort Gulick, Panama Canal Zone, to establish what was later designated the 8th Special Forces Group, 1st Special Forces. The 8th Special Forces Group was deactivated in 1972 and the unit redesignated as the 3rd Battalion, 7th Special Forces Group."

longrange1947

3 December 2003, 10:13

Since 8th is part of the linage of the 7th, then 7th gets bragging rights, however, it was the 8th that had teams on the ground.

CB - I got to 3/7 in 1976, what company were in?

Che was a waste of oxygen, while he could forment rebellion, he was a total incompetant at reading the people and conducting a revolution. Look at the ones he started, never finished. Bolivia was not the best target. There were a number of better suited countries for his revolution, but then again, he could not read the people. I firmly believe that he is a product of the hype of the liberals and "revolutionary wannabes". He never really showed a true gift for unconventional warfare. He was more self proclaimed and book knowledge from others.

Did that end a lot of the possible revolutionary activites in SA and CA, yes. Did it end it all and stop all insurgencies, hell no. Nothing will do that. As long as there are rich spoiled kids that feel guilty over having something that a poor peasant does not have, even if the the poor peasant does not know about it, then they will run revolutions forthe poor down trodden. Hell look at the background of most of the terrorists. Rich kids with a guilt complex.

One of the "Congresswomen" in the group of liberal tratiors was the lovely female from Colorado and the one that now gives your retired pay to a wife that leaves you. Can you remember her name, starts with Pat S.

She also hosted the cuban intelligence chief at her house party during her last term.

Enough babbling.

rmediver2002

3 December 2003, 10:45

As long as there are rich spoiled kids that feel guilty over having something that a poor peasant does not have

Shit, if they had to try earning what they have they would not feel any pangs of guilt!

Jimbo

3 December 2003, 10:49

Yet another website I hate, but:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB5/index.html

Jimbo

3 December 2003, 10:51

Originally posted by ratamojada
Felix Rodriguez was the name of the CIA operative on the ground at the time of Che's capture.
He also has a nice Rolex.

Polar Bear

3 December 2003, 11:00

Originally posted by ratamojada
Felix Rodriguez was the name of the CIA operative on the ground at the time of Che's capture.

How real is this guys story? I just read his book this past week.
...I am trying to play catch up with you guru's I am breaking out all my old books and rereading them

C-M-R

3 December 2003, 11:40

Originally posted by longrange1947

One of the "Congresswomen" in the group of liberal tratiors was the lovely female from Colorado and the one that now gives your retired pay to a wife that leaves you. Can you remember her name, starts with Pat S.

Are you asking because you can't remember or because you want to see if he knows?

Here's a little bit about her - She was in the House of Reps for 24 yrs. Longest serving female, never defeated. Is now the CEO of the Assoc of American Publishers. She is not one of my favorite people, but there are things about her that I admire.

"She was also active in military issues, expediting the National Security Committee’s vote to allow women to fly combat missions in 1991, and working to improve the situation of military families through passage of her Military Family Act in 1985."

3 December 2003, 12:32

Longrange:

B Company, 2nd Bn, 7th SFGA
SFOD(A) 751

longrange1947

3 December 2003, 12:42

CMR - I will always remember that female for being pro El Sal insurgents, pro Sandinista, pro everything left wing while anti military. Her work to get the female in combat was BS and she all but admitted it.

Oh well.

lrd

3 December 2003, 13:24

I emailed Mona Charen (the source of Bandaid's quote) and asked where I could find the full text of the letter. Her reply:

"It's in The Revolution Lobby by Michael Waller if I remember correctly."

Does anyone have this book?

Jimbo

3 December 2003, 13:46

No, but I used to have Waller's e-mail address. Let me see if I can find it again.

C-M-R

3 December 2003, 14:01

Originally posted by longrange1947
CMR - I will always remember that female for being pro El Sal insurgents, pro Sandinista, pro everything left wing while anti military. Her work to get the female in combat was BS and she all but admitted it.

Oh well.

She isn't on Chuck's Christmas card list either.

bikewrench8541

4 December 2003, 01:50

Felix Rodriguez was the name of the CIA operative on the ground at the time of Che's capture.

Thanks for the reminder. I still can't find that book, it was a paperback.
Filling in your profile is required around here.

longrange1947

4 December 2003, 08:34

Originally posted by CB
Longrange:

B Company, 2nd Bn, 7th SFGA
SFOD(A) 751

OK, I was with C Company, 3rd Bn, 7th SFG(A) in Panama at that time, A-16. I was a lowly SSG at the time but had a great time!

C-M-R - Not on my Christmas list either. Her and Billary sent money to the El Sal insurgents ($5000.00 each for "humanitarian aid") and I have always wondered what part of that 10,000 dollars still floats around in my neck, arms and side of my face.

Sneaky SF Dude

4 December 2003, 10:43

Che's death and prior to that his failures, IMO, had another significant impact on movements in LATAM. It caused them to doubt the Cuban model and led to a relatively brief period of focus on urban operations. Something we still see from time to time. In short, it caused them doubt, which increased internal conflict over strategy, which prevented them from being as organized and focused as they would have been otherwise.

ratamojada

4 December 2003, 10:58

The urban experiment, espoused by Regis Debray, also turned out to be a failure. Interesting though, was the effects that Che's failure had on Abimael Guzman in Peru. He placed extensive emphasis on "hearts and minds" operations while realizing, unlike Che, that the poor people will not inherently lean towards revolution based on econmic disparities. The Sendero Luminoso spent countless years formulating revolution at the university level, then filtering their message down to the peasant level. By the time the Peruvian government knew what was happening the altiplano was effectively in the control of the SL. Guzman, despite his earlier patience proved impatient as their revolution pressed on, and eventually turned against the very populous that was supporting him and began to inflict some pretty heinous acts against the basic infrastructure of the Quechuan and Aymaran social system. Basically they weren't jumping online fast enough and he turned to terrorist acts against his support base....wrong answer!....but to get to the point, his earlier patient posture for fermenting a revolution was a direct response to the failures of Che.

Sneaky SF Dude

4 December 2003, 11:00

Good example.

PSYWAR 1-0

4 December 2003, 11:14

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
It caused them to doubt the Cuban model and led to a relatively brief period of focus on urban operations.

A brief period that they are revisiting at present

Sneaky SF Dude

4 December 2003, 13:56

You think they're doing a strategy change now?

PSYWAR 1-0

4 December 2003, 15:14

The Farc have stated that Americans are now targets, dosent matter who they are, AD, Contractor, Emb ect. The BBC grenade attack was just the opening salvo. I think we will see attempts to overrun bases where Plan Colombia and MTT pax are based in the new year.

Sneaky SF Dude

4 December 2003, 15:17

LOL - dude, Americans have always been targets. They're just saying it out loud.

I'll bet when its all said and done the BBC had nothing to do with 'Mericans.

All the same, if I was in Arauca, I'd be wearing a vest 24/7.

Bandaid

8 December 2003, 18:17

Originally posted by Jimbo
No, but I used to have Waller's e-mail address. Let me see if I can find it again.

"It's in The Revolution Lobby by Michael Waller if I remember correctly."

Did anyone find the letter? My local library doesn't have the referenced book. Any luck Jimbo?

PSYWAR 1-0

11 December 2003, 02:09

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
LOL - dude, Americans have always been targets. They're just saying it out loud.

I'll bet when its all said and done the BBC had nothing to do with 'Mericans.

All the same, if I was in Arauca, I'd be wearing a vest 24/7.

Got some feedback from the "Interview" of the grenade thrower. Good thing they couldnt find a parking space or it would have been a MG attack. Police presence did its job as he felt he wouldnt be able to walk up the street with his AK. Im predicting a major push to get some more of those Rock River Arms 9in barreled ARs that were captured down in Tumaco up into the city. :(

Of course since most of the people banned from going to areas in the zona rosa actualy live in the zona rosa the entire embassy will probably be fired for not following its own directives LOL Thus there will be no more targets

lrd

17 December 2003, 20:02

From THE REVOLUTION LOBBY, by Allan C. Brownfeld and J. Michael Waller.
The “Dear Commandante” letter would not have deserved much publicity had it been written by the leftist fringe in Congress that rushes to embrace every anti-American revolutionary movement it can. This is why the letter was so alarming to many observers--the signers were the top foreign policy men in the House. They were the Majority Leader, the Majority Whip, the chairman of the Intelligence Committee, the chairmen of three important subcommittees on the Foreign Affairs Committee, two Foreign Operations Subcommittee on Appropriations members, and two other members of the Foreign Affairs Committee. One signer, Representative Lee Hamilton, is now [1986] the new Chairman of the Intelligence Committee. (page 100)
The Letter:
Congress of the United States
House of Representatives
Office of the Majority Leader
Washington, D.C. 20515

March 20, 1984

Commandante Daniel Ortega
Coordinator de la Junta de Gobierno
Case de Gobierno
Managua, NICARAGUA

Dear Commandante:

We address this letter to you in a spirit of hopefulness and good will.

As Members of the U.S. House of Representatives, we regret the fact that better relations do not exist between the United States and your country. We have been, and remain, opposed to U.S. support for military action directed against the people or government of Nicaragua.

We want to commend you and the members of your government for taking steps to open up the political process in your country. The Nicaraguan people have not had the opportunity to participate in a genuinely free election for over fifty years. We support your decision to schedule elections this year, to reduce press censorship, and to allow greater freedom of assembly for political parties. Finally, we recognize that you have taken these steps in the midst of ongoing military hostilities on the borders of Nicaragua.

We write with the hope that the initial steps you have taken will be followed by others designed to guarantee a fully open and democratic electoral process. We note that some who have become exiles from Nicaragua have expressed a willingness to return to participate in the elections, if assurances are provided that their security will be protected, and their political rights recognized. Among these exiles are some who have taken up arms against your government, and who have stated their willingness to lay down these arms to participate in a truly democratic process.

If this were to occur, the prospects for peace and stability throughout Central America would be dramatically enhanced. Those responsible for supporting violence against your government, and for obstructing serious negotiations for broad political participation in El Salvador would have far greater difficulty winning support for their policies than they do today.

We believe that you have it in your power to establish an example for Central America that can be of enormous historical importance. For this to occur, you have only to lend real force and meaning to concepts your leadership has already endorsed concerning the rules by which political parties may compete openly and equitably for political power.

A decision on your part to provide these reasonable assurances and conduct truly free and open elections would significantly improve the prospect of better relations between our two countries and significantly strengthen the hands of those in our country who desire better relations based upon true equality, self-determination and mutual good will.

We re-affirm to you our continuing respect and friendship for the Nicaraguan people, and pledge our willingness to discuss these or other matters of concern with you or officials of your government at any time.

Very sincerely yours,

Jim Wright, Michael D. Barnes, Bill Alexander, Matthew F. McHugh, Robert G. Torricelli, Edward P. Boland, Stephen J. Solarz, David R. Obey, Robert Garcia, Lee H. Hamilton.
(pages 102-103)Edited to correct for new glasses.

Bandaid

17 December 2003, 20:30

gracias

Sneaky SF Dude

18 December 2003, 09:57

That's the one. Thanks lrd.

C-M-R

18 December 2003, 10:16

Jim Wright, Michael D. Barnes, Bill Alexander, Matthew F. McHugh, Robert G. Torricelli,Edward P. Boland, Stephen J. Solarz, David R. Obey, Robert Garcia, Lee H. Hamilton.
(pages 102-103)

What a stooges gallery. Boland Amendment, phtttht

“What we asked for were weapons so that we could defend ourselves, that's what we asked of the Soviet Union, of the socialist countries of Eastern Europe, of the Algerians, of the Vietnamese; and that's what we received so that we could arm the Nicaraguan people and defend ourselves in that war imposed on us by Ronald Reagan's Administration over a number of years” – Daniel Ortega

Matchanu

18 December 2003, 10:29

I don't know if it's been mentioned but there was a movie about Che starring Omar Sheriff, I think it was in the 70's.

Anyway, just thought I'd point that out.

Roguish Lawyer

18 December 2003, 13:20

Sneaky:

If one wanted to learn about Che's thinking, which book(s) should one start with? Gracias.

Sneaky SF Dude

18 December 2003, 13:41

1) Guerrilla Warfare - Che
2) Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life by Jon Lee Anderson
3) Companero : The Life and Death of Che Guevara by Jorge G. Castaneda
4) The Diary of Che Guevara: The Secret Papers of a Revolutionary by Che Guevara

Roguish Lawyer

18 December 2003, 13:44

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
1) Guerrilla Warfare - Che
2) Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life by Jon Lee Anderson
3) Companero : The Life and Death of Che Guevara by Jorge G. Castaneda
4) The Diary of Che Guevara: The Secret Papers of a Revolutionary by Che Guevara

Muchas gracias, senor Sneaky. I'll start with the first two. :)

rgrnate

19 December 2003, 11:43

Originally posted by SGTROCK
What I wanna know is why all these young kids I see are wearing Che T-shirts and stickers on their car. I love enlightening these idiots with who he really was. I really hate ignorant people!!

ROCK

oh man, NOTHING said getting laid better than the burning of incense, a velvet poster of che, hippie beads hanging in the doorway and a black light.....

Sneaky SF Dude

19 December 2003, 11:45

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Muchas gracias, senor Sneaky. I'll start with the first two. :)

I like number 3

okami1

20 December 2003, 01:31

How does the book by Castaneda compare to the biography written by Anderson? I have read the latter and found it in depth and informative, however, I did feel that it was lacking in historical perspective and future implications of Che's revolutionary ideology. On one hand, it can be left to the reader to determine the current state of affairs in LATAM and how it relates to the legacy of Che, but a more extensive revision and discussion of the impact on the societies involved would be excellent as per the original discussion of this thread.

Roguish Lawyer

20 December 2003, 11:00

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
I like number 3

Jeez, you know you could have made it #1 then! LOL

Ordered 1 & 2 already, but I'll get to 3 in good time . . .

Sneaky SF Dude

20 December 2003, 12:11

They're all pretty good. #1 was the place to start, although he didn't really have any revelations. Mao was more original.

Roguish Lawyer

20 December 2003, 13:16

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
They're all pretty good. #1 was the place to start, although he didn't really have any revelations. Mao was more original.

I'll take your Mao suggestions too. I'm pretty well versed in Soviet thought, at least during the Bolshevik period, but don't know much about other commies.

Sneaky SF Dude

20 December 2003, 13:27

Mao is the man on popular protracted war.

What's the one by Lenin? What to do now or something? That is the work on conspiratorial strategy, albeit on a large scale.

Che's book is Mao's theories adjusted for Cuba, thinking it would work in all of LATAM, IMO.

Roguish Lawyer

20 December 2003, 14:10

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
What's the one by Lenin? What to do now or something? That is the work on conspiratorial strategy, albeit on a large scale.

"What is to be done?," I believe. Back when I was reading this stuff, it was great because the Soviets made cheap copies available for American peasants such as myself. Allowed me to just buy it all at the school bookstore and write in the margins. :D

okami1

20 December 2003, 19:52

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
I see Chavez as a Castro-wannabe. I think he might be frustrated by not having had a revolution to carry him to the top. I think he is a simple minded populist, same cut as Lula (but not as smart), Guterrez in Ecuador (but smarter), etc. There is definitely a wave of populists being elected.

I am interested to hear what you guys think the future holds for Venezuela and Colombia, having to deal with groups like the FARC and others gaining ground. What do you think the political future of these countries will be?

Sneaky SF Dude

20 December 2003, 19:57

Check the Colombia and Venezuela threads and come back and tell us.

okami1

20 December 2003, 22:00

Before I start mouthing off about where the political future of these countries lie, I would like to better understand the past.

My initial observations and comments...

This quote from the Venezuela thread seems to epitomize the direction and indications coming from within VE.

"I think that there will be a succession of coups, confrontations and insurrectional strikes. I mean that there is a confrontation over the political regime, over oil, but the two currents that face each other are both neoliberal, even if they represent different tendencies. On the one hand there is the bloc that could be called the Fourth Republic, composed of the politicians of the traditional right, the bosses and their media, some putschist military elements and some 'moderate' trades unionists [social democratic or social Christian] in the CTV federation. This bloc supports an old and classic neoliberalism in the distribution of wealth. On the other hand, there is a neoliberalism that is much more advanced in its philosophical conception of capitalism: this is the bloc that supports the government. What is lacking here is a third force, revolutionary and patriotic, capable of confronting the power of the bourgeoisie and imperialism."

Chavez seems to have embraced the revolutionary ideologies put forth by Bolivar and Che, and implements them on a somewhat effective level, but it seems that he is more concerned with the bones of it rather than the meat. That is to say, he is providing an outward appearance of following in the noble cause of Castro's struggle against imperialism, while at the same time tacitly obtaining support for his causes from the "imperialists" themselves by maintaining ongoing trade relationships through his control of the PDVSA. The fact that the CEO of the PDVSA was a guerilla under the command of Ponce, is an excellent demonstration of the party's adherence to Cuban revolutionary doctrine, but at the same time would indicate a straying from it by the acceptance of support (i.e. $$$) from the "enemy". Am I way off here?

While Chavez has openly followed Cuba's example, his close ties with Fidelito would suggest that his overall purpose is to institute the type of Socialist reforms that Cuba has. The most glaring difference seems to be the fact that VE has a national product vital to not only the stability of its own economy, but important to the maintenance of other players as well. Cuba did not have this same type of chip in the big game.

With VE's support of the FARC, the ELN, and the birth of the FBL, falling in line with the LATAM socialist path, one question I have has to do with the murder of Edgar Patino, who Chavez supporters claim was assassinated by the ELN. If the Chavez government is providing refuge for these groups, why would they take out a vocal supporter of his regime? Given the fact that in the province where it took place it could have been anyone, but it still remains to be wondered, why would there be fighting amongst the ELN and nationalist Chavez supporters? If Chavez is really a friend to the FARC and ELN by providing them with training sites inside of VE, it makes you think twice about the real negotiations going on between the CNE and the ELN/FARC.

It also occurs to me, that as the pressure has risen inside of VE both politically and socially, that turning to support of terrorist elements both within and without of the country proper is something that is looked upon by the Chavistas as a possible means of strengthening their own cause. This is a double edged sword, whereby someone mentioned in the VE thread that they seek to provide just enough terror to empower the government, but not too much so as to provoke a backlash against it. This also, as you said, may push the outside pressures (the US) from providing indirect intervention to participation in more direct efforts. And rightfully so in my mind.

Am I in the ballpark here? Before I go on and stray farther from the reality, what am I missing from this assessment?

Going back to read more...

PSYWAR 1-0

23 December 2003, 06:11

Originally posted by PSYWAR 1-0
The Farc have stated that Americans are now targets, dosent matter who they are, AD, Contractor, Emb ect. The BBC grenade attack was just the opening salvo. I think we will see attempts to overrun bases where Plan Colombia and MTT pax are based in the new year.

I was a week and a half early on the overun attempt..................

Roguish Lawyer

24 December 2003, 16:04

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
2) Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life by Jon Lee Anderson

Jeez, Sneaky! It's going to take me a year to read this monster! :mad: :D

That's OK, why start with something introductory when you can just go right to the definitive treatise, right? LOL

Sneaky SF Dude

24 December 2003, 21:09

If it was easy, it wouldn't be worth having. That's why those green and tan (should still be black) berets are "earned not issued".

Merry Christmas counselor.

d3b2

26 December 2003, 00:11

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Che was headman for the cleansings done after the revolution. Yeah, he would comitt atrocities.

I don't hate him.

Sneaky SF Dude, hi, I am doing some inquiry into Ernesto Che Guevara. Until recently I thought my inquiry was balanced, but discussions on this bulletin board are giving me pause. Could I benefit from your previous research? Specifically, I would like to know which of the four books that you have recommended talk about atrocities/cleansings committed by ECG, or if you have some other source. Thanks for any help.

d3b2

Dark Helmet

26 December 2003, 00:46

This is somewhat off topic, but about a year ago my wife played Eva peron in the musical Evita. Go here (http://www.stdunstanstheatre.com/evita_backstage_pics.htm) to see a photo of her standing next to the guy that played Che (second photo). Last photo on the far right of that series shows her and "Che" partying it up after one of the performances (no worries, he's gay as a three dollar bill). She's wearing a wig (Eva was a brunette in her youth). Our son is in the third picture in that series. Her hair was blonde (http://www.stdunstanstheatre.com/evita_programpics.htm) then, and much longer.

The guy that played Che did a ton of research on the guy for his character, and the deeper he dug, the more interesting it got, for sure....I learned quite a bit that I did not previously know.

Back to your regular programming.....

Sneaky SF Dude

26 December 2003, 10:46

Originally posted by d3b2
Sneaky SF Dude, hi, I am doing some inquiry into Ernesto Che Guevara. Until recently I thought my inquiry was balanced, but discussions on this bulletin board are giving me pause. Could I benefit from your previous research? Specifically, I would like to know which of the four books that you have recommended talk about atrocities/cleansings committed by ECG, or if you have some other source. Thanks for any help.

d3b2

The information is out there, but you have to dig deep. A lot of it went un reported becuase it would dispell the myth.

d3b2

13 January 2004, 02:56

still digging to shatter the myth.

This book Che Guevara : The Revolutionary Life is very good reading so far. Its interesting to read about the Truman administration lobbying for mutual defense treaties, the Rio treaty, and "panamericanismo" as a salve against Soviet Communism. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, so now I am wondering if communism is still a big theme in terms of Castro trying to forment support for insurgencies, and how much a perceived threat of non-soviet communism still plays into anti-insugency policies, or cracking down on the left.

Sneaky SF Dude

13 January 2004, 03:05

Hint: look at what they said (Castro/Guevara) then look at what actually happened in Cuba.

They aren't communists. Didn't even claim to be before 1960.

okami1

13 January 2004, 03:33

Che and Fidel were leaning more towards an Agrarian reform philosophy when they began the revolution, is this incorrect? It seemed as if their involvement with the Soviets and Soviet communism was more a result of Che's urging and the desire to have the industrial and economic backing to stand up to the USA. This was something I got when reading about that time period in this book.

ratamojada

13 January 2004, 09:41

If I remember correctly their was even some interesting talks with the Chinese and Castro near the end of the revolution which sparked even more interest by the Soviets. The Soviets were scared of a potential Maoist influence in their otherwise Soviet ridden area. Castro was/is simply an oppotunist, and Che was just his misguided attack dog.

Sneaky SF Dude

13 January 2004, 11:43

I'm talking about the actual conduct of the revolution. You guys are way to strategic. What is the basic doctrine of Marxist revolution? What group (class) is the key?

d3b2

13 January 2004, 12:28

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
I'm talking about the actual conduct of the revolution. You guys are way to strategic. What is the basic doctrine of Marxist revolution? What group (class) is the key?

class strugle - the worker.

someone else can answer about post-rev cuba.. I'm not that far yet.

I guess you are implying that the actual conduct of the revolution i.e. the tactics (and potentially even the aims and goals) are completely different than envisioned in Marx or Mao, or whoever else were giving inspiration to Che.

good point, that even the U.S. may not have viewed it as a Soviet-Communist threat.

Sneaky SF Dude

13 January 2004, 12:41

Right, the worker. Political indoctrination is more important than military action. You have to prepare the masses, usually for years before initiating military action so they will rise up. The Party is dominant and sets strategy. The objective conditions must be in place.

Castro actually fought with the Party in Cuba and LATAM in general. He made the Party subordinate to the military side. Called them cowards. He started changing his tone in 1968 - what happened in '67? Debray changed hs tone as well.

The US put an arms embargo on Batista.

Despite the ramnce novels, most of the fighting and dying in Cuba was done in the cities, not the Sierra. There was no "Rising Up" in the rural areas to surround the cities.

Batista fell because:
1) A corrupt putrid rotten regime
2) Nobody helped him
3) Castro maintained his personal moral while Batista gave up
4) Batistas military knew nothing about counter-insurgency
5) The intellectuals and land owners helped Castro
6) Castro had a dedicated core group

I could have other thrown Batista with half a Girl Scout Troop, a platoon from the Salvation Army, and a phrench flute player.

Surf n Turf

13 January 2004, 23:20

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
1) Guerrilla Warfare - Che
2) Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life by Jon Lee Anderson
3) Companero : The Life and Death of Che Guevara by Jorge G. Castaneda
4) The Diary of Che Guevara: The Secret Papers of a Revolutionary by Che Guevara

Sneaky,
Finished #3 Companero: The life and Death of Che Guevera / Castaneda just before Christmas - good book, well researched

Sneaky SF Dude

13 January 2004, 23:24

Good job. Anything surprise you?

Surf n Turf

14 January 2004, 07:51

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Good job. Anything surprise you?

Sneaky,
Yes - The treatment of his mother. Even though she was on the far side of the angels, (and birthed and tutored an incompetent, inept revolutionary, that was pure evil), you don’t turn a dying woman away from a hospital in her final hours, in terrible pain. At least shoot her up with some morphine before you send her on her journey to the river Styx

Sneaky SF Dude

14 January 2004, 14:13

Bogota Mayor: Castro's Health Declining
34 minutes ago

BOGOTA, Colombia - Weeks after meeting with Fidel Castro during a vacation in Cuba, Bogota's mayor said Wednesday the 77-year-old Cuban leader's health appeared to be deteriorating.

"He seemed very sick to me," Luis Eduardo Garzon, a former communist union organizer, told Caracol Radio. "You could tell he had physical limitations, especially in his speech."

Rumors about Castro's health circulate regularly, especially in the Cuban exile community. But he has not had any known serious illnesses and remains energetic for a man his age, recently speaking for eight hours at a meeting of Cuba's parliament.

Garzon, who met with Castro in December before taking office Jan. 1, said Cuba has made significant advances in the fields of education and health but that he was disappointed with the revolution there.

"One expects debate ... but in Cuba, everything is driven and controlled by one party," Garzon said. "That's not right. I have always said there should be no dictatorships, neither from the left nor the right."

Castro has been in power for 45 years, making him the world's longest-ruling head of government.

Garzon took office with a pledge to combat poverty in the capital city of 7 million. He has vowed to oppose some of hardline President Alvaro Uribe's more controversial tactics in the government's campaign to crush a leftist, four-decade rebel insurgency.

_____________________________________

Well DAMN! Now I gotta pick a new one.

Roguish Lawyer

14 January 2004, 14:15

This calls for a new thread, I think.

Sneaky SF Dude

14 January 2004, 14:16

Or maybe we could get a mod to rename the thread Cuba.

Sharky

14 January 2004, 21:11

Originally posted by bikewrench8541
Thanks for the reminder. I still can't find that book, it was a paperback.
Filling in your profile is required around here.

I have it in hardback.

d3b2

14 January 2004, 22:33

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Bogota Mayor: Castro's Health Declining
34 minutes ago
Garzon took office with a pledge to combat poverty in the capital city of 7 million. He has vowed to oppose some of hardline President Alvaro Uribe's more controversial tactics in the government's campaign to crush a leftist, four-decade rebel insurgency.

SSFD, Is the mayor Lucho a communist, or a Castro communist? Is a difference that one wins elections, and one cooks insurgencies?

Sneaky SF Dude

14 January 2004, 22:39

Just my opinion now.

Lucho is a card carrying member of the Communist Party - its not illegal there. He is also a sort of Hoffa with the unions, that are mostly communist led.

Castro to me is not a communist. He's a dictator with no other ideology than to keep Castro in power. I think if he feels it slipping away, he is more than capable of reversing himself and becoming the world's greatest promoter of capitalism.

He is a pragmatist. He let people believe he is a communist because communism was cool when he took over, he needed help from the Soviets, etc. Latins (gross generalization) are sort of socialist by nature. None of the intellectuals I ever met had any problem with communism in theory.

Sneaky SF Dude

14 January 2004, 22:41

I didn't know you were a girl until today. Can you shoot too?

d3b2

14 January 2004, 23:06

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
I didn't know you were a girl until today.

are you serious?

Can you shoot too?

not here, now.

but yes, if I have to, and I dont aim for the horse.

d3b2

15 January 2004, 16:39

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Just my opinion now.

Lucho is a card carrying member of the Communist Party - its not illegal there. He is also a sort of Hoffa with the unions, that are mostly communist led.

Castro to me is not a communist. He's a dictator with no other ideology than to keep Castro in power. I think if he feels it slipping away, he is more than capable of reversing himself and becoming the world's greatest promoter of capitalism.

He is a pragmatist. He let people believe he is a communist because communism was cool when he took over, he needed help from the Soviets, etc. Latins (gross generalization) are sort of socialist by nature. None of the intellectuals I ever met had any problem with communism in theory.

It doesnt seem that communists are content with being accepted "in theory". Apparently there was alot of anti-communist rhetoric in the U.S. in the 60's, yet the U.S. targeted a true believer, and not Castro the pretender? In retrospect, was the U.S. misled at the time?

Well, I guess these answers will come when I dig more. or not.

Sneaky SF Dude

18 January 2004, 13:20

ROSARIO, Argentina - More than 36 years after his capture and execution, Ernesto ''Ché'' Guevara is about to be reborn. As a celluloid hero.

The Argentina-born, anti-American revolutionary, perhaps best known today for millions of appearances on T-shirts and posters, is the subject of a much-anticipated movie, The Motorcycle Diaries, which will debut Saturday at the Sundance Film Festival in Park City, Utah.

The movie -- directed by Brazil's Walter Salles and produced by actor-producer Robert Redford -- is based on diaries Guevara wrote during a 1952 road trip by motorcycle and thumb across South America. Guevara, then an asthmatic 23-year-old medical student, sweated his way across the Chilean desert, played soccer with lepers in Peru and rafted down Amazon River tributaries to Colombia.

The nine-month trip introduced Guevara, a son of an upper-middle-class engineer, to the harsh realities of poverty and the indifference of the region's ruling classes to the poor. What he saw led him eventually to seek revolutionary change in Latin America. Were Guevara still alive, he would now be 75.

According to Salles, the movie focuses on Ernesto, the young man coming of age, not Ché, the revolutionary he became. Salles describes his film as the ``story of two young men's search to discover for themselves an unknown continent -- before the age of television and globalized information . . . the story of two young men crystallizing their identities in the process.''

Movies often reshape public perceptions of history. Likely to be overlooked in this instance is the fact that Guevara, when he was a little older than he appears in the movie, preached a gospel of violence and advocated a nuclear showdown with the United States during the Cuban missile crisis of 1962.

JOURNEY TO CUBA

Guevara was born June 14, 1928, in Rosario, about 110 miles northwest of Buenos Aires. After the epic journey, he became a doctor in 1953 and soon afterward met Fidel Castro in Mexico City. After Castro seized power in Cuba in 1959, Guevara held numerous government posts before parting ways with the communist leader in 1965.

The author of a treatise promoting guerrilla warfare, Guevara tried to export rebellion in the Congo but failed. He then sought to spread revolution in Bolivia but was hunted down by U.S.-trained Bolivian soldiers and executed by them on Oct. 9, 1967. To prove his identity, his face was spared from gunfire and his hands cut off for fingerprints.

Three decades later, his handless skeleton was sent to Cuba for burial.

Today, Guevara lives on as a fashion statement. College students worldwide wear T-shirts bearing his handsome bearded face. Internet retailers hawk his trademark soldier's beret for $16.95 plus shipping.

''He has become a plastic Ché,'' lamented Eleuterio Fernández Huidobro, 61, a former leader of the Tupamaros, an armed urban guerrilla group in Uruguay during the 1960s and 1970s to whom Guevara was an inspiration.

''What lingers is the image of an age when youths were the protagonists, the clothes, the music, revolution, a new way to see sex. It was a cultural revolution that swept the world,'' said Fernández, who's now an influential Uruguayan senator. ``All the leaders then were 20-somethings. Today we have a youth that complains a lot but is unwilling to act.''

In Rosario, there's no plaque on the elegant apartment building where Argentina's most famous, or infamous, son once lived on the second floor.

Elderly doorman Miguel Gili gladly showed a reporter the damaged steps where Guevara sympathizers, angry at neighbors' refusal to place a plaque on the building, blew off the front door with a homemade bomb several years ago.

A group of local professionals has tried for years to create a Ché Guevara museum. The city renamed a small plaza in his honor, and city fathers last year named him an ''illustrious person.'' But they won't go any further than that.

`DIDN'T EXIST'

''Here in Rosario, Ché didn't exist,'' said Diego Sciascea, 32, a psychologist who is a museum proponent. ``I've been struck by his humanity, the disposition to change things, more than the guerrilla part of him.''

His group gives away bottles with a quote from Guevara inside: ``The only fight you lose is the one you abandon.''

Verónica Domínguez, a clerk in a convenience store near Guevara's apartment building, said she'd had a surprise encounter with the famous revolutionary symbol.

When robbed at gunpoint recently, Domínguez noted that the crook wore the telltale rebel's badge on his arm: a tattoo of Guevara's face.

''I wondered if he knew what Ché was about,'' she recalled thinking.

María Masse, a Buenos Aires painter of T-shirts with Ché's image, had this answer about who he was:

``When Ché died, I was just a kid. I didn't know what his revolution was all about. The image I formed is of a man following his ideals. . . . This spirit is what I see. Only every now and then someone like him comes along.''

zog

18 January 2004, 15:23

Serious question, Senor Sneaky: Ya gonna see the flick? I assume you've read the book.

Sneaky SF Dude

18 January 2004, 15:26

Sure, I'll watch it if it comes on. I won't pay to go see it. I read the diaries a loooong time ago and can't find my copies. Guess I'll have to buy them again.

The interesting thing about this to me is its been almost 40 years and the fu#!er won't die. He's like that damn pink rabbit with those batteries. DAMN!

Roguish Lawyer

18 January 2004, 15:33

You know they're going to portray him as a big hero, right Sneaky? Bring your air sickness bag!

zog

18 January 2004, 17:57

Heck, the Motorcycle Diaries is a road-trip story. He didn't go to the DARK(helmet?) SIDE until later. But I suspect you're right, RL, it'll be more than a travelogue.

zog

18 January 2004, 17:59

Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Sure, I'll watch it if it comes on. I won't pay to go see it. I read the diaries a loooong time ago and can't find my copies. Guess I'll have to buy them again.

The interesting thing about this to me is its been almost 40 years and the fu#!er won't die. He's like that damn pink rabbit with those batteries. DAMN!

And for the true belivers, it was the evil Roman centurions who killed him.

Sneaky SF Dude

18 January 2004, 18:36

Originally posted by zog
Heck, the Motorcycle Diaries is a road-trip story. He didn't go to the DARK(helmet?) SIDE until later. But I suspect you're right, RL, it'll be more than a travelogue.

That trip put him on the dark side.

tex80

18 January 2004, 18:56

411: Sundance Flips for Che Guevara
Sunday, January 18, 2004
Roger Friedman

Sundance Flips for Che Guevara

Walter Salles has already made the much-admired movies "Central Station" and "Behind the Sun," and he executive produced "City of God," the movie that should have won Best Foreign Film last year.

Now he's gone and directed "The Motorcycle Diaries," an adaptation of the early writings of Latin American revolutionary Che Guevara, into a film of such enormous gifts that all the various movie studios represented here are fighting over it. Once the deal is made with Focus Features, Sony Pictures Classics or any of the others hoping to get their hands on it "The Motorcycle Diaries" could easily go on to become the first Spanish language nominee for Best Picture.

When "The Motorcycle Diaries" was shown last night at the Eccles Theatre, the place went crazy with standing ovations. After a long, frustrating two days of odd movies that didn't quite make it, seeing the Salles film was like a tonic for the audience.

And this was a group that included executive producer Robert Redford and former Vice President Al Gore, of all people. (Gore, who came in with little fanfare and a few family members, sported longish hair and a red and gray ski parka. He was friendly but spit out the words, "I'm not doing interviews" almost before I could introduce myself.)

But this had to be the response to a sly masterpiece, the kind of film that people will be talking about for a long time to come and will be the toast of Sundance for the remaining six days.

If it's marketed right, "The Motorcycle Diaries" should make rock stars out of its two main actors Gael Garcia Bernal and Rodrigo de la Serna. Bernal is already known to American audiences from "Amores Perros" and "Y Tu Mama Tambien," but his portrayal of a young Che Guevara should do for him what "Before Night Falls" did for Javier Bardem. Equally good, and with more comic material, is de la Serna as Guevara's sidekick and youthful buddy Alberto Granado.

Just as a quick aside, Granado, who is very much alive and living in Cuba, was denied a visa to come to the United States and be part of the Sundance Festival. As a footnote to the film, the real Granado pops up during the film's closing credits in which he gives an interview about Guevara and their experiences. Because de la Serna has made him such an endearing figure on screen, it only adds to the film's poignancy.

The film tells the true story of Guevara and Granado's 1953 adventure when the former was 23 and the latter was 29. Together, the medical student and biochemist set out from Buenos Aires for a motorcycle trip north through South America, with Caracas as their destination.

The trip was recounted in a recently republished edition of the "Diaries." Guevara, who came from a wealthy Argentine family, was catalyzed by the poverty he saw along the way, especially in Peru. He eventually joined Fidel Castro and became a Cuban revolutionary. He was killed by the CIA in Bolivia in 1967.

Salles tells the story very much like "On the Road" (he'd make a perfect director for the Kerouac classic that was published in 1957), concentrating on the young men's youth and naivete about the world. The politics of the era are treated with a light touch. Instead, what could have become a polemic turns into a story of friendship and coming of age with the political part used as a backdrop.

Remarkably, Salles told the Eccles audience that the movie had only been finished a couple of days earlier. But there was nothing about it that seemed rush. Every bit of "The Motorcycle Diaries" shows a real artist at work. The attention to detail of the period, not to mention lovely cinematography and production values, makes the film a kind of instant classic, something much more than a foreign film. I think no one who was at last night's screening can wait to see it again. Bravo!

Spinner

24 September 2006, 18:48

I just can't get over the irony that a socialist revolutionary has turned into a capitalist tool. Give me an iconic figure, and I'll give you a T-shirt...:D

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-che24.html

Che's iconic image keeps revolutionary alive

September 24, 2006

BY MARTHA IRVINE

There's something about that man in the photo, the Cuban revolutionary with the serious eyes, scruffy beard and dark beret.

Ernesto ''Che'' Guevara is adored. He is loathed. Dead for almost 40 years, he is everywhere -- as much a cultural icon as James Dean or Marilyn Monroe, perhaps even more so among a new generation of admirers who have helped turn a devout Marxist into a capitalist commodity.

Of all the pop culture images that surround us, it is Guevara's face -- immortalized in the photograph taken by Alberto ''Korda'' Diaz Gutierrez -- that often stares at us, from T-shirts and posters, refrigerator magnets and tattoos.

'I have no idea who this is'

Part political statement and part fashion statement, the image sometimes overshadows the man, as one T-shirt wryly acknowledges. Below the photo, a caption on the shirt reads: ''I have no idea who this is.''

Panayiotis Lambropoulos, a young Greek immigrant who lives in Chicago, is someone who took the time to learn about Guevara. He saw his first Che shirts a few years ago and thought everyone who wore one must be a rabble-rouser. Then the investment analyst ended up buying one for himself.

Fascinated with Guevara, he began reading whatever he could about the man who helped lead the Cuban revolution and promoted armed uprisings in Africa and Latin America until he was slain in Bolivia.

''In a way,'' Lambropoulos said, ''I've wanted to earn my T-shirt.''

The photo's journey from Cuba to that shirt has been a long one. Taken in Havana on March 5, 1960, the shot captured Guevara attending a memorial service for dozens who died in an attack on an arms freighter. Cuba blamed the incident on U.S.-backed counterrevolutionaries.

Korda, a fashion photographer turned photojournalist, was on assignment for the Cuban newspaper Revolucion. The photo was used publicly in Cuba, eventually becoming a symbol of national pride and the basis for a drawing of Guevara on Cuban currency. But the outside world didn't see it until years after it was taken, when Korda gave copies to an Italian publisher who made posters with it. After Guevara's death in 1967, it was used as a cover for some of his diaries.

The image of Guevara is widely considered one of the world's most reproduced and emulated photographs.

Time and again, it surfaces -- on a Madonna album cover; on a T-shirt worn by guitarist Carlos Santana at the 2005 Academy Awards; in a New Yorker cartoon by artist Matthew Diffee that depicts Guevara wearing a T-shirt with Bart Simpson's face on it.

Those who despise Guevara and his role in helping put Fidel Castro in power in Cuba also have created their own images and T-shirts. The obvious one shows a red circle and line crossing out Guevara's face.

'Che is Dead -- Get Over It'

''The ultimate irony is the millions of dollars that capitalists and bourgeois merchants have made selling the image of Che. He's probably rolling over in his grave,'' said Henry Louis Gomez. A 36-year-old Cuban-American who lives in Miami, he sells T-shirts from his anti-Guevara Web site, including one that says ''Che is Dead -- Get Over It.''

Since creating the site 1-1/2 years ago, Gomez estimates he has sold 20 or 30 shirts -- a tiny number, he realizes, compared with the many worn by fans of Guevara.

Pablo Garcia-Pandavenes, of Oakland, Calif., whose father was born in Cuba, is one of those fans. Among other things, he credits Guevara, who was trained as a physician, with helping set up Cuba's socialized health care system.

True of many Che fans, Garcia-Pandavenes, who is 34, was born after Guevara was killed. Yet, the man -- and that image -- still resonate.

''Guevara was the ultimate revolutionary because he fought to the death, and the ultimate poster boy because he was chic,'' said Alvaro Vargas Llosa, a senior fellow at the Independent Institute.

Such comments trouble Vargas Llosa, who wrote The Che Guevara Myth and the Future of Liberty. He questions whether Guevara's admirers really understand who he was.

Among other things, his detractors accuse Guevara of overseeing the executions of those who opposed Castro.

''Perhaps my consolation is in the fact that people do not tend to associate Guevara with the Castro revolution but with an abstract idea of revolution that does not and will never exist,'' Vargas Llosa said.