why?

[nightinsertion]

Why is the the 75th the only unit? what do they do that puts them with SF?

[Mac679]

I direct your attention to a little something called Operation: Eagle Claw. They can act as a rapid response, direct action force should the need arise.
Mac

[abn_rngrr]

Mission Statement of the Ranger Regiment:

PLAN AND CONDUCT JOINT SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATIONS IN SUPPORT OF U.S. POLICY AND
OBJECTIVES.

The following is from the 75th Assocociation website @ www.75thassoc.org: (http://www.75thassoc.org:)


The 75th Ranger Regiment is a flexible, highly-trained, and rapidly-deployable
light infantry force with specialized skills that enables it to be employed against a
variety of conventional and special operations targets.

What makes the Ranger Battalions capable of conducting specia military operations? Training. The Ranger Battalions train twelve
months of the year. Ranger Battalions have no post support requirements; no police or guard details; and no personnel on special duty (SD). Training is continuous except for two, two weeks of block leave each year. During these breaks, two weeks in the summer and two weeks during the Christmas/New Year holidays, every Ranger is given the opportunity to take leave. Block leave serves as a safety valve to relieve the pressure of the demanding pace of training and also assures the commander that he will have a full complement of personnel for training.

The result of having maximum personnel available for training and few external distractions is numerous off post deployment
exercises. The battalions conduct arctic, jungle, desert, and mountain training periodically. Amphibious training is also
conducted. The individual Ranger is exposed and challenged by every imaginable type of terrain and climactic conditions. He is
tested by elements, his peers, and evaluators.


My input:
The biggest mistake made by those that get through RIP is that they've "made it". You never actually make it in the Regiment. The expertise for conducting "special operations" exists WITHIN the Bns and once you get into a Ranger squad you are under the constant scrutiny of EVERYBODY in the squad. This is unlike any training environment wherein you are just one of many students. The result is that you learn quickly and earn the trust of your squad, or you leave. The largest exodus of newly assigned personnel occurs not in RIP (although plenty fail there too) but in the first few months in the Bn. If you survive this and earn the right to go to Ranger School you're most likely "good to go". BUT if you cop an attitude and figure you can slack, you can still be sent packing. As has been often said, "the scroll is a way of life, and you earn it everyday".

The result of this training environment, coupled with the above described optempo means that Ranger Bns, although "just" light infantry battalions, are capable of operations that NO OTHER infantry in the US, and few in the world, are capable. That is why

RLTW

[LRSC Grunt]

Its because they kick ass!

[nightinsertion]

they do kick ass, does being a part interfere with them doing conventional war situations?, lets say in war time, would they still be under specops command or would they be tasked just all over the place?

[Hardrock Charlie]

The Regiment is part because it deploys with a forward JSOTF (Joint Special Operations Task Force). It can conduct missions on its own or it can also be used in a supporting role in conjunction with other elements. Due to OPSEC, those of us who know really cannot get into much detail about specific Regimental mission assignments or training while attached to the JSOTF. The best thing I can tell you is to enlist, volunteer for duty with the Rangers, and have a blast conducting JRT.

If ya aint got it get down!!!

RLTW

[Mike]

To Hardrock Charlie
Are you copying Ranger Robert Black's famous quote, "If you ain't Ranger, you ain't shit."

[Jack Ryan]

To ab_rngr:

In your responce you said - although "just" light infantry battalions, Rangers are capable of operations that NO OTHER infantry in the US, and few in the world, are capable.

I'm not trying to start feud, but just out of curiousity, what missions do the Rangers perform that a Marine MEU(SOC) is not capable of. I ask this because you said no other infantry unit it the U.S. is as capable as the Rangers.

[Fred]

The amateurish article written is rife with inaccurate statements and misleading information.

[Hardrock Charlie]

No, I don't copy anyone. If you're referring to my comment of "If ya aint got it get down", then I guess I have to explain...In Bn, A tabbed Ranger Yells "If ya aint got it get down". That means that anyone who isn't tabbed gets down and starts knockin out push ups...

I guess you have to be there to understand

[x:C-1/75 Ranger]

Been there done that... and one for the "Airborne Ranger in the Sky!" What Batt are/were you Hardrock Charlie. 1st Batt Leads the Way! RLTW!

[Mike]

to Jack Ryan,
if the Rangers can do anything, then all three battalions should rotate to do the CT role instead of setting up the Delta Force, like the SAS's 4 Sabre Squadrons do. One battalion is doing the CT, the other one learning, and the third one on alert duty and so on.

[Jack Ryan]

To Mike:

I don't totally understand your post. I never said Rangers can do anything. My question was to abn_ rngr who said and I quote "Rangers are capable of operations that NO OTHER infantry in the US, and few in the world, are capable."

My question was and still is what capabilities do the Rangers have that a MEU(SOC) does not?

Jack Ryan

[Snake]

JR,
Airborne capability for one.
The ability to put a full Battalion -Anywhere- on the surface of the Earth in 18 hrs. Surprise factor, as a Ampibious Group sitting off the coast is rather obvious.
Continental Penetration, can reach the interior of landmasses rather easily, whereas the MEU's cant. THIS IS NOT PUTTING DOWN THE MARINES, just answering the question.

Snake
25th ID(L)

[JSOCMarine]

Snake,
I am a HUGE fan of the Rangers. I think they are the premier light infantry force in the world today, the best at what they do. But, you should think about the capabilities that you mentioned in your post. Most require aircraft full of Rangers to fly to a DZ or airfield. This assumes air superiority and the ability to at least neutralize enemy air defenses. And, with the basic radar capabilities possessed by most target countries, a wave or two of C130/141's will not go unnoticed. There is a big difference in having the CAPABILITY to do something and ACTUALLY PULLING IT OFF. Think about trying to drop a battalion of Rangers near Chechnya (SP?) next week for an assault. The air threat may require the alteration of DZ's,etc. This in turn may cause the Rangers to have to conduct longer movements to the objective,increase their exposure, minimize their strength as shock troops,etc. And, think about the need to resupply the force, Rangers travel light, and follow on resupply aircraft may be necessary. Planners in ALL services break out into hives when the S-2 starts talking about AAA and S/A missiles. One cannot always assume that Spectre will be able to fly over and perforate everything in advance.

There are numerous studies detailing the concern about the "Forced Entry" capability of airborne forces. Some of these studies were funded by the ARMY itself when some idiots were trying to disband all airborne forces. One glaring factor that always shows up is the need for air superiority (at least temporarily) and supression of enemy air defenses. Thats why the PRUDENT use of Rangers or other airborne forces, or even the aerial insertion of your Light Fighters or the Marines requires a few factors falling into place. If not, the planners are back to square one.

I know that you respect Marines, but you are still a bit unschooled in the nuances of amphibious warfare. The fact is that the days of assaulting beaches (ala WWII) are largely over. A lot of this knowledge is rarely taught (or needed) prior to the Command and General Staff College level. Thats why most older officers and enlisted acknowledge that all services have strengths and weaknesses, and that no one unit is ideally suited to ALL contingencies. Show me a General who says his service can do it all better than anyone else, and I will show you an out of touch idiot who has read too many of his own briefings! (The Marines have a few of these!)

An ARG off the coast of a country often stays a hundred miles or so out from the coast for surprise and force protection reasons. I have done helo raids from as far as 100km offshore, hit the objective and spent as little as an hour on the deck. Our boat companies also do OTH raids routinely. It's not a fun ride, but hey - no guts,no glory!

The Marines routinely conduct what you call Air Assault Ops from the deck of ships. When I went to IOAC, I found that most Army captains did not truly know how Marines fight from Navy ships. I, in turn, never knew just how awesome an ACR was if employed in the right environment.

Rarely does an ARG get close enough to allow people on land to see them. If they do, it is planned as a show of force. Many of the thousands of Marines stuck on ship during the Gulf War never saw the shores of Kuwait during the entire 8 months they were there.

To give you an idea of the flexibility that an ARG gives a commander, think of the entire east coast of the U.S. An ARG floating off the coast is capable of launching an assault anywhere from Maine to Key West, Florida within 72 hours(assuming the ancient ships will turn screws!). If they want to attack key West or do a NEO, they can drive down there, loiter off the coast 50-75 miles or so, and wait for the execute order.

The strength of this capability is that they can wait FOREVER (resupply at sea=routine op) in relative safety and refine planning,etc. I can tell you that after sitting for as much as 4 months off the coast of some arab or african countries it is boring as hell, but the longer you sit the better the intel and planning gets, and yes, it allows other U.S. assets (Rangers in a few instances) to fly to the ship and use it as a launch platform whenever the word is given. Now, there are also factors that can neutralize these strengths, weather, sea state, enemy air or naval presence,etc. As I said, no one force can do it all, all of the time.

Realize also that surprise is not always associated with the enemy not seeing you or knowing of your presence. Surprise is also having your presence gnawing at an enemy psychologically, as he wonders about the TIME and PLACE of your attack,etc.

I personally think that Rangers are the very best at Airfield Seizures and limited objective raids. When used for what they are designed for, Rangers are a force to be reckoned with. I served extensively with the Regiment in a liaison role, and I know that most Marines will never truly appreciate how good these guys are.

Sometimes though, Rangers or other forces simply cannot get to the AO in time to respond to a crisis,etc. Thats when the ARG steams into position and the Marines may conduct the mission, many times not as pretty as the experts would do it, but the job gets done. This is the sole reason why our Force platoons ever got into HR and CQB. They are capable of conducting "In Extremis" HR when National Assets cannot get there in time, and the op must be executed now.

As a bit of trivia, did you know that the Army conducted MORE amphibious landings than did the Marines in WWII? And, do you know that the U.S. Army TODAY owns more active troop carrying amphibious ships than does the U.S. Navy. There are soldiers who actually spend their career driving ships! Kind of puts a different spin on your comments in another string relative to Marine Air Wings and the lack of justification for such redundancy, eh?!! (could not resist that!)

I learn a lot from your posts Snake. You are obviously a student of the Warrior Art. I sleep better at night knowing there are guys like you out there! Semper Fi!

P.S. Sorry so long-winded!



[This message has been edited by JSOCMarine (edited 11-26-1999).]

[This message has been edited by JSOCMarine (edited 11-26-1999).]

[abn_rngrr]

To Jack Ryan:

As stated above by Hardrock Charlie, the full capabilities of the Regiment reside well under OPSEC. Remember the Regiment trains year round for their missions, are mission deployable that entire time, and have full personnel selectivity. Although the MEU(SOC)'s are fine units, a unit that is raised from scratch, takes over a year to bring up to speed, then deploys can't mimic in full the capabilities of the Regiment. In case anybody misunderstands, this is NOT an indictment of the capabilities of the USMC or the MEU(SOC)'s. In that regard, JSOCMARINE has stated these points, above, more clearly than I could.

RLTW

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

To JSOCMarine,

Many a jumo have been made and many an air insertion have been made by a Ranger unit of some type WITHOUT air supperiority. Thats one of the reasons the Ranger RGT is the only unit in the Army allowed to make 500ft jumps.

RLTW

And yes The Ranger RGT can do more things than an MEU

[Jack Ryan]

TFRANGERMEMBER,

You say many air insertions have been made by Rangers. I can only think of one since WWII. I am no historian so please correct me if I am wrong.

I have nothing against the Rangers, but I don't believe the Rangers are any more capable than a MEU(SOC) and vise versa. Both are great units each with their few weaknesses and many strengths.

I am curious though as to what you believe Rangers can do that a MEU(SOC) cannot, other than airborne insertion.
Jack Ryan

[This message has been edited by Jack Ryan (edited 12-01-1999).]

[abn_rngrr]

To Jack Ryan:

I tried to motivate for you the differences between the training and personnel selection of the Regiment vs. an MEU(SOC), which in turn should hint that there must be some difference between the capapbilities of the two units. I'm sure you understand why nobody can tell you the full capabilities of of the Ranger Regiment. Even the lowest ranking individuals in the Regiment must get secret clearances; as you move up the chain of command the clearances go higher. There's a reason for this. Enough said.

On paper any infantry unit can perform any mission another can. Any objective can be reduced to a set of battle drills, TTPs and SOPs. But we all know that units vary widely in capabilities. Listing a set of missions says nothing about the proficiency with which a unit can perform a particular mission. In the end you can believe as you wish. Nothing of what you believe changes what is, and is not true, however.

By the way, the modern Ranger Bns. have performed two published low level parachute assaults since 1983. Grenada and Panama. Other Ranger units have conducted other ops.

[Michael Robertson Moore]

A while back I posted a question about Rangers training with foreign units overseas, but I didn't get any answers. Does discussion of this violate Opsec? If so, I'll drop it. But I'm curious.

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Ok jack,

AS I SAID MEU(SOC) DOES NOT DO LOW LEVEL JUMPS (regardless of if the RGT has not done any much in the past few years the MEU does NONE). THEY DO NOT DO HALO AS THE RRD IS QUAL FOR.

MEU(SOC) is not trainined in AIRFIELD Seizure. They do NOT SPECALIZE IN GURIELLA TACTICS LIKE THE RANGER RGT.

I mean it is so cut and dry the differences that I don't even know why we are having this discussion.

AND by the way Jack...TWO NON-OPSEC jumps of low level, and possible several more we DONT KNOW ABOUT.

RLTW

[Snake]

JSOC,
I wasnt arguing the relative superiority of the 75th vs. MEU's. I answered a question of what, exactly, the Rangers could do that MEU's cant. Hence the whole Airborne-ops thing. I fully recongnise the merits of the MEU's/ARG's, or there would be threads full of me calling for their disbandment. However, with each strongpoint, comes an equal (or greater) limitation. Neither Rangers nor MEU's come packing the Heavy equipment. On the other hand, think about trying to land Bradleys on a contested beach.....

Snake
25th ID(L)

[alohanick]

To whom it may concern, I see alot of people in these forums that DO NOT seem to do their homework. First and foremost, there is a pecking order in the military. It's precedent is established by 1)Mission 2)Function 3)Funding and unfortunately 4)T.V, Media, and movies. The special operations community is a tool box. Within that toolbox are very SPECIFIC and PRECISE tools. Some tools are used more than others, but in some situations there is a need for a tool that cannot be substituted for. We should take pride in the fact that we (the U.S) have a "complete set of tools". Now, for a little point of contention... Snake, you mentioned a lack in the landing of heavy equipment in Ranger ops. Well then, PLEASE tell me how many airfield seizures you or any of the MEU's have been on where you had to facilitate and control the landing of several heavy planes and op-sec equipment. That is only after a BN JCT with Special guest stars have had to fight, clear, Hotwire vehicles, and do many other tasks. I have been a proud member of the Ranger Regt, and my pop was a plank owner SEAL TM2 w/30 years in the Teams. I have worked with darn near everyone and can tell you that some units should keep their day jobs and try not to be a Spec-Ops "Leatherman Tool". Thats how dead people happen. For the Ranger skeptics I say this... We are good at what we do and do it better than any of the competition. For proof look at the selection, training, and $$$$$. The Ranger Regt spends more money on ammo a year than the whole Marine Corps combined! Staggering but true. To be fair to the Corps; I must say that their rifle marksmanship, basic training program and esprit decor for ALL their soldiers, men and women, is a testament to their commitment to excellence. With that being said, I wish ALL the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines a very merry Christmas, and ask all of you to maintain your vigilance and love of country as we press on into the next millenium to battle the next foe who thinks he has more tools than us. Sincerely, Nick

[Hardrock Charlie]

Okay fellas, let's stop crap about the Regimental D*** being bigger than the MEU D***. It's getting boring and there is enough of that on the other threads. There is a place for everyone in a combat operational environment.

I too was a member of the Regiment (2nd Platoon, "Hardrock Charlie" Company 1/75) and I too have trained with many other SOF units as well as the USMC. Understand, MEU (SOC) elements DO (or at least did) train in airfield seizure operations in the same way that we train for harbor raids. I love my Regiment, however facts are facts, the MEU is a versatile force and they deploy on many operations around the world. Their record speaks for itself. As far as a special operations force goes, the MEU is very capable. I don't think that they get as many high speed toys as we do, but the make the most with what they have. Sometimes they just "happen to be in the area" and can move across the beach quickly. They have the heavy stuff and can pull security operations sometimes better than we can.

In our case on the other hand (75th Ranger Regiment), we train to take down specific targets, period. Sometimes these are stand alone operations consisting of units within the Regiment or in support of another SOF. We can go in anywhere at any time and do the deed. We have the capability to insert via static line parachute, foot, vehicles, helos, and Zodiacs. When I was in 1st Batt. we also had teams (outside of the RRD) qualified in SCUBA and MFF techniques. But remember, that's only how you get to work. It what you once you get to the objective where it really counts.

RLTW

[Hardrock Charlie]

Something I forgot to say in my last post. Having good SEAD is important. However AFSOC trains to penetrate airspace regardless of if the enemy has lost his AD capabilities or not. The AFSOC capabilities here are honed to a razor's edge. I don't want to talk about how and why I know this, but trust me, it is an absoloute fact.

By the way, yes the Ranger Regiment deploys to other countries and trains with Foreign SOF all the time.

[Mike]

Interesting discussions. There are 7 MEUs and they trained for 6 months and then deploy for 6 months on a rotational basis. They have the air support and the logistics support. Sure they don't parachute. On the other hands, the Rangers train for DA but they don't have the logistic support like the MEUs do. There was an article in Early Bird about the new C-130 not being able to help anyone with a parachute to jump quickly.
Beside, everyone in the Marine Corps (regardless of their MOS or sex or assignments) is trained as an rifleman. The Army doesn't trained everyone as infantrymen and that totaled into lack of support and understanding. I heard Gen. LeMoyne, the Infantry School CO (and the brother of the late Admiral LeMoyne, the first SEAL to achieve Admiral rank) challenged anyone if AIT or other training were not tough enough nor reality enough. We need more soldiers to stand up to commanders at the risk of losing their Army career and recommend suggestions and solutions (instead of talking about problems). It is the training, and training and training which distinguish the Marine Corps and the Rangers and SF and Delta and this and that from the others. No units is the best.
Michael Moore; The answer to your question is:
"A Breed Apart: U.S. Army's Rangers Train Hard to Go the Extra Mile," Armed Forces Journal International, October 1999, p. 86, 87, and 90.

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Look, no matter who says what no ones opinion will change. By the way RGT does have outstanding logistical support, perhaps not from within the RGT, but it is supported by units rather well. Just like in all of SOCOM.

No as far as Hardrock Charlie goes...

Were you in during the "lock down"?

RLTW

[x:C-1/75 Ranger]

Hardrock Charlie,
Were you in 2nd PLT around the same time as a SFC Malloy, John. I got to 2/C/1/75 in late '94.

[JSOCMarine]

Some great posts on the Ranger vs MEU-SOC comparison. I would like to offer a few thoughts on my original posts, and some of the follow up ones.

I think I may have confused some folks when I pointed out the need for air superiority when attempting to send transport aircraft into contested airspace to conduct paradrops. I did not say that the Rangers had not conducted combat jumps. We all know they have.

What I was pointing out was that being able to fly a wave of C130/141's somewhere in 18 hours is speculation that you can reach the destination alive. This is something that cannot be taken for granted. There has been some mention of the real capabilities of the Regiment that are classified,etc. This is true in that the SOP's are classified, and of course operational matters,etc.

I am well acquainted with and have actually written parts of some of those SOP's. The average Ranger in a line company does not see much of the ones concerning higher level planning, thats why their clearances are largely limited to Secret, and others (typically certain commanders, planners, and special attachments) get higher,more compartmented levels of access.

I can say without violating OPSEC that the Regiment (and the 82nd,USMC,etc) does indeed have pretty specific GO/NO-GO criteria when determining feasibility and supportability of aerial insertion. If the factors come up a NO-GO, scratch the airmobile or paradrop option...at least until something changes, or can be changed to make it a GO.

These are precious lives we are talking about here, and the planners, rightfully so, are loath to send planes stuffed with good men into a shooting gallery if there is another way. It has nothing to do with a lack of toughness or courage,both of which the Rangers possess plenty of. Dont get me wrong, Rangers (or paratroopers, or Marines,etc.)will fly into bullets if necessary, but they will not be sent into a nonpermissive environment where the probability of massive casualties is prohibitively high.

The mention of the jumps in Grenada and Panama illustrate my point entirely. There were no enemy air forces to deal with, period. Thats a big deal! It's big GO for planners.

There were also limited air defenses, another big deal. In Panama, I believe that Spectre and other assets were able to overfly the DZ's and render them permissive. There was also heavy intel work and eyes on target prior to the assault. It was about as good as it gets for a paradrop, and thats the way it should be!

In Grenada, the Rangers jumped at 500 feet ( some participants are convinced they jumped at less than that). It is a fact that the air defenses, specifically ZPU-23's located at overwatch positions near the airport were unable to depress their barrels below about a 750' level. In other words, the aircraft flew under a good amount of 23mm fire. This was not as a result of planning, the intel was almost nonexistent. It was a combination of the Rangers jumping low as per SOP for a combat jump, and the lack of professional competence on the part of the PRA and their Cuban advisors. They forgot to check their deadspace. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that had those guns been able to depress lower there would have been a lot of casualties.

These guns and others were silenced by Marine Cobra's from the 22nd MEU. These Cobras ran CIFS for the Rangers on the ground until the need diminished. When the Rangers and Delta did some combined raids on the prison,etc., they also provided support. During one of the attacks, I personally witnessed two Cobras get shot out of the sky by 23mm, a gun that the enemy had not fired before. All four pilots died. These aircraft came from the Navy ships offshore, exploiting the capabilities that I mentioned in my initial post.

Contrary to what some think, the MEU's do train for Airfield Seizures, it is a checklist item in the SOC qualification package. I have done them from significant distances over the horizon. Why do we practice them? In case a situation arises and the Experts (see Rangers) cannot get into the AO in quickly enough. The MEU has folks who can hotwire rolling stock, clear the airfield,etc. This op is routinely practiced in CONUS and abroad.

That said, I personally feel that the Rangers are hands-down the best in the world at this. And yes, I have been with the Regiment/Battalions during the conduct of this particular op. It's a thing of beauty when done well, thats for sure. The MEU SOC SOP's for this mission look a lot like the Regiments. The Regiments SOP's for NEOs and some other ops look a lot like the MEU's. Ever hear of exchange officers?!!!

Please note that the SOC in MEU SOC means Special Operations Capable....not Special Operations Forces. That means that if the Tiers cannot get to the AO in time and the MEU can, the MEU has practiced and attained a certain level of proficiency at, and can execute a number of tasks normally conducted by SOF. Look at the O'Grady rescue and countless other events...it may not have been pretty, but the bottom line is that a weapons platoon of plain old grunts flew in on two 53's and picked him up. The situation simply could not wait for SOF to get there. It all worked out well..but again, we all know that certain other units are the real pros in Personnel Recovery.

I think that people on this net should remember that there will always be a lot of younger guys stopping by asking the same high school level questions that basically ask, "who are the baddest MF'ers?", or "what is the toughest gutcheck?" I asked those questions at 16 and 17 too. We should expect to see questions like this for as long as this board is up.

Maybe there should be a FAQ section listing the various services and units missions and capabilities? I think it surprises many of the young guys when they realize how much respect real professional warriors have for one another. It is a sign of maturity and self-confidence. Semper Fi!



[This message has been edited by JSOCMarine (edited 12-04-1999).]

[This message has been edited by JSOCMarine (edited 12-04-1999).]

[Dark Helmet]

There is a good book out there called "Crippled Eagle; An overview of US Special Operations from 1979-1996". Highly reccommend this to anyone that is curious about the development of SFOD-D, JSOC, 1st SOCOM, and USASOC. 80% of the book focuses on the planning of OPERATION RICEBOWL (later named EAGLE CLAW) and the Desert 1 Iran hostage resue attempt incident.

The author is a retired USAF officer that was the J-2 for JTF1-79; Rod Lenahan. Good read.

[Snake]

Alohanick,
I didnt say that there was a lack of capability re:landing heavy stuff. I said that the 75th and MEU's were Light -units-, as opposed to Army Mech Divisions. I think you misread me.

Snake
25th ID(L)

[Hardrock Charlie]

TF Rangermember, I don't understand your last post "No to Hardrock Charlie" any chance you can clarify?

Also, which lockdown are you referring to? I've been locked down a couple of times and I'm not sure which you are referring to.

Thanks and RLTW

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

Sorry Charlie..I meant Now not No...it should have read

"No to Hardrockcharlie"

Anyway..the lockdown that involved that Sergeant selling eqpt to the mafia or something like that.

RLTW

[Hish]

Just my .02 as you guys put it. and this is in response to some stuff i read in this thread.

1. The Ranger and SF tabs are not the only ones attainable as an "Individual" skill tab. There is the Presidents 100 tab and there is another i can remember at the moment.
2. You mentioned something about the rangers having secret clearances starting from the lowest private, and this lending to the hooah-ness of them... well MP's all start out with at least a secret. so HOOAH

MP's LEAD THE WAY!

just my .02

Hish

[TFRANGERMEMBER]

No...Rangers Lead the way, how many MPs jump at 500ft level to take over an airfield so it can be set up for operations? Granted MPs move in rather fast...but they don't lead the way.

RLTW

[Snake]

Ahh, but TFR....

Are not MP's feared and hated by Dog-Kennel owners everywhere? Remember Panama?

Woof woof....<pop>.....Yipe,Yipe!

Snake(Who has never, ever assaulted a Kennel)
25th ID(L)

[Hish]

No, MP's do not jump out at 500ft and secure airports and do shit like that, but damnit we should!
I must admit, i should have joined the army with the ranger contract. Went ranger for my 1st enlistment. Then became an MP, then go SF. I wish i had all the good training and knowledge that comes with being a ranger. But i dont damnit, and im awful mad about that But i still have the SF option, and damnit its a good one.


MP's lead the way!

[Hish]

Snake: that was mis-communication...

... it happens

suck it up, adapt and overcome!!!

a funny story it is though

MP's lead the way!

[LRSC Grunt]

Why dont we just follow the marines example and make 82nd Abn into 82nd Abn (SOC), 101rst Abn (AA)(SOC), and 10th Mt. (SOC);(it would piss them off dearly). I mean come on. No offense to the marines I believe the entire corps kicks ass, but I do believe the "(SOC)" is nothing more than the marine corps trying to get their piece of the pie within the JSOC and SOCOM community. I know for a fact that any brig task force within the 18th Abn. Corps is mirrored to the capabilities of an MEU. But when you compair MEUs to the Ranger Regiment, MEUs just wont cut it. When I was in 101, which is in the 18th abn corps, my brigades METL consisted of airfield siezures, deep behind the lines raids, EBCR, ect. Just our division alone has more helos than the entire us air force(nine aviation batalions!!!). Who cares if we didnt "claim" to be "(SOC)", so why the hell does the marines have to claim themselfs as "(SOC)"???

According to this official USMC URL there are a total of seven MEUs, and every single one of them claim to be "(SOC)". Also notice the description of an MEU. They are the exact same thing as any Brigade Task Force within the 18th Airborne Corps.

http://www.usmc.mil/meus/meus.nsf/$Help?Open

Notice at the end of the URL address, it says "/money help?". HHMMMMM...I wonder what that means??? Could they be trying to get their "piece of the pie" too???

BTW,HISH!!! Quit trying to steal the rangers motto you poge!!!




[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 12-17-1999).]

[Jeff Rambo]

Funny how times never change.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Rambo (edited 12-02-2001).]

[MrPotatoHead]

Everyone is "Capable" to perform just about anything. I can CLAIM to be sniper capable but does that make me a sniper? I have 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 eyes and a rifle. I go to the range and shoot quite often. Hell, I'll even go so far as to say that I'm a pretty damn good shot with my rifle. That said, I am sniper capable but am I a sniper? Fuck no. I have neither the time, energy, patience, money or desire to train myself in all the nuances of precision shooting, stalking, range estimation, etc, etc, etc at this point in my life. The same holds true for the SOC MEU. You are never going to get the answer you are looking for on a public bulletin board in regards to your question. The only way you are going to find the answer is to go to a Ranger BN yourself. That is the only place where you will/can find them.

That said, I wonder when we are all (Rangers and Marines) going to get together and brawl at a bar to settle this once and for all? We will have to do this on a military installation so all the participants can turn on a common enemy.........the MP's, if and when they show up. Then we can all become friends, compare black eyes, and get plowed while the MP's are held in place in the corner. Then we can all get back to work, stop worrying about who's better at what (Peter principal), realize that we all have a job to do, and do it.

[Battboy From Hell]

Ya know, if only I weren't a good little Ranger and adhering to OPSEC, I could explain why Marines lost part of their METL.

But I can't, so I won't.......

Hey, everyone has a mission, and they are all imporantant. Everybody better damned well be an expert at "Their" mission, or we got problems bigger than "who's dick is bigger than who's".

Weigel

[Gary]

I'd like to leave a well written and professional post like JSOC's but he did a good job of explaining to you helmet heads what the "real deal" is.

I'll just say, "who IS doing it?!"

[Greenhat]

Originally posted by Gary:
"who IS doing it?!"


Special Forces.

De Oppresso Liber


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De Oppresso Liber

[Snake]

Ah, the callow youth I was...
Jeff, see if you can dig up more of the old JSOCMarine vs. SGT Snake debates. Those were fun. At least before I spent a year out in ROTC, and found out JSOC was -right-!!

Snake
A/1/504th PIR

[Sgt Vinson]

I would just like to say that this has been a very enjoyable post to read.

But, RLTW!, always http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/wink.gif

Ya'll have a great holiday!

[Tracy]

IMHO, the biggest problem with MEUs and Rangers is there isn't enough of them. Thanks, in part, to the G*!! D!@#$% Navy and Air Force buying more fighters instead of freighters.

Did anyone note the significance of the force deployment to Afghanistan? DoD sent in two MEUs, completely intact; and stripped out a Carrier Batle Group's aircraft and replaced it with SOF forces. Think about that.

[Snake]

Tracy,
I imagine The Honorable Secretary Rumsfeld is taking notes and names all through this...

Snake
A/1/504th PIR

[Pawn]

First, I'm non-military so please bear with me.

I keep reading that the Ranger Regiment can deploy in 11 hours and the 82nd can do so shortly there after. But is this kind of rapid deployment really necessary? When was the last time NCA committed ground troops just 11 hours after outbreak of hosilities?

It seems to me weeks will go by before the intel is analyzed, strategies studied and air-superiority established before we can consider dropping a division somewhere.

The Rangers may have an advantage, being a small enough unit to be air-lifted out. But if something goes wrong with the 82nd, there would be no way to reinforce them for weeks - long after everyone's dead.

[Snake]

Actually,
they dont intend to just drop us any old place. If we can, we'll seize and hold an airstrip, so we can be reinforced by C17/151/130's. Failing that...we wing it. We can fight for about 72 hours with the stuff we jump with. After that, it gets interesting. Since we lost the M551's, we no longer have a light armor contingent, so our best hope is to dig in and wait for the heavy's to be flown in. We're a forced-entry unit, so hopefully, the rest of the Army is coming behind us.

Snake
A/1/504th PIR

[Enfield]

Originally posted by Pawn:
First, I'm non-military so please bear with me.

But is this kind of rapid deployment really necessary? When was the last time NCA committed ground troops just 11 hours after outbreak of hosilities?

It seems to me weeks will go by before the intel is analyzed, strategies studied and air-superiority established before we can consider dropping a division somewhere.





The French did the rapid reactin thing at Kolwezi in the 70's, the Brits have done it as well - Sierra Leone for example. There are some situations where the solution is black and white, or can only get worse.

[Ranger1]

Originally posted by nightinsertion:
Why is the 75th the only unit? what do they do that puts them with SF?

Because Rangers are kewl.(Sorry, Ivan's melting my brain.)

-Kirk

[Greenhat]

Originally posted by Pawn:
First, I'm non-military so please bear with me.

I keep reading that the Ranger Regiment can deploy in 11 hours and the 82nd can do so shortly there after. But is this kind of rapid deployment really necessary? When was the last time NCA committed ground troops just 11 hours after outbreak of hosilities?

It seems to me weeks will go by before the intel is analyzed, strategies studied and air-superiority established before we can consider dropping a division somewhere.

The Rangers may have an advantage, being a small enough unit to be air-lifted out. But if something goes wrong with the 82nd, there would be no way to reinforce them for weeks - long after everyone's dead.




Do a little research on the events of October 20 to 30, 1983. Might give you some perspective.


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Pugnare, Fornicare, Autmori

[Gary]

If you are referring to Grenada, the “bloody coup” occurred on Oct 13. The invasion didn’t start until Oct 25. The Navy had quite a flotilla off the island by then.

[realpolypro]

You know...I hate coming late to a long thread. I read the first couple and think "ooo, ooo, wait til I finish this! I'm gonna ream so and so a new a$$hole on that one"! Then by the end, I forget the beginning. let me see if I have the "gist" of this thread...

1. What makes the Rangers so special?

2. The MEU's compare equally to the 75th

3. MP's Lead The Way.

Well, for #1 I say...nothing, we suck. We're just like every other pogue ass leg in all military branches. The military was duped into giving us huge amounts of time and money with no return on their investment. The Army is one big 75th, there is no difference-hence the black beret.

For #2 I say...I don't f'n know, never been a Marine or in an MEU. Let's hope Rumsfeld knows.

Now I don't mean to go off on a rant here...

For #3 I say GIVE ME A F'n BREAK! Mr. unregistered was in Battalion and then went pogue? What, you get kicked out? Real smart, give an 18 year old a gun and a badge...oh yeah, he'll act real professional. "Sgt, you know that your road guard vest needs to go over your backpack also, when riding a motorcycle". "It doesn't F'n fit over it einstein...don't you have some Krispy Kreme's to snarf somewhere?" And man oh man, is there any MP out there that wears something OTHER than X-Large/Short? I love the Japanese! Why, because they produce legal, road going, two wheeled vehicles that weigh in at 390 LBS with 160 HP. That's your revenge for these doughnut snorting, got their milk money stolen, aint sh^t without their badge and gun, hypocritical (speed everywhere they go, off duty too. I've even seen some with the Georgia "Good ole' Boy" Don't stop me I'm on the job, blue reflective sticker on the back window.), anal, whining POGUES! "Nuthin could be finer than to be at redliner at one-sevvvvvvventy" And don't you DARE bring up your new Impala's...I don't care how fast it will eventually go...aint doing it in 4 seconds! Ah Hahahahaha! Radios? Ah Hahahahaha, beat them too...15 of them I believe, right Shark? LOL!!!!!!!!!!

As Willem Dafoe say's in Flight of the Intruder.."I hate SAM's, I get all worked up just thinkin' about em" http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Gary, according to CNN the Marines are doing "It"...havn't seen the "Boys" on TV...guess they went home. http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/smile.gif Which leads me to believe that there are more SEALS crawling around than on a Monterey pier.



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My ISP said "If they connect to a known trojan port, you can rip out their hearts for all we care"

[Snake]

<Soothing voice>"That's it, Poly...Dont repress..."
Heh.

Snake
A/1/504th PIR

[Greenhat]

Bishop and a large number of Grenadians were killed on 19 October. The OECS met on 21 October. The request for aid was issued on 23 October. The Naval and Marine forces that were deployed were diverted from steaming to the Med. That was just plain luck. Grenada is a perfect example of a situation which occurs and comes to head too quickly for forces other than Airborne troops to be able to react to it.

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Pugnare, Fornicare, Autmori

[Scotty]

Damn I love a good Poly rant in the morning!

Hey Poly, "VIIIIIIIINNNNNNNGGGG.... VIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNGGGG.... SCREEEEECH!" (I miss that noise)

Blacked out, 0'dark thirty, Benning to Charlotte in 2.8 hours. Make it so, numbah one!

Scotty

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Some people call them "terrorists", these boys have simply been misguided

[MrPotatoHead]

Originally posted by realpolypro:
Radios? Ah Hahahahaha, beat them too...15 of them I believe, right Shark? LOL!!!!!!!!!!


At least, I was CQ one of those nights. Thanks Poly!

[Gary]

Originally posted by realpolypro:
Which leads me to believe that there are more SEALS crawling around than on a Monterey pier.

Coronado is pretty quiet these days.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Greenhat:
Bishop and a large number of Grenadians were killed on 19 October. The OECS met on 21 October. The request for aid was issued on 23 October. The Naval and Marine forces that were deployed were diverted from steaming to the Med. That was just plain luck. Grenada is a perfect example of a situation which occurs and comes to head too quickly for forces other than Airborne troops to be able to react to it.



Sometimes I feel like I'm beating my head on a brick wall. SEAL's and Recon Marines were the first US troops there. Plain luck doesn't exist when you have prepositioned MEU's at sea all the time. The 24th MAU would have been at sea if we were in beirut or not. Besides, your above posts gives us 5 days to deploy. Give the kid a better example of sending in troops at the drop of a hat.

[Snake]

Kolwezi. 2nd REP. I'm guessing, but I believe it was with 48 hrs warning.

Snake
A/1/504th PIR

[Gary]

While 2e Regiment Étranger de Parachutistes brilliantly executed the Kolwezi raid, there was a disastrous Para Drop by Zairian paratroopers on May 16 with 2REP on standby. 2REP was given the word to go on 18 May and went in the following day. No drop of the hat there.

[rgrjoe175]

ARRGGGG... what the hell is all this type of nomenclature is killing me...hahahah can anyone say.... hook pile tape lowering line assembly not locked properly to the right d-ring...... sheeze I hate jumpmaster school.... I am from fucking east texas....give me a break.....

Joe

[abn_rngrr]

Originally posted by rgrjoe175:
ARRGGGG... what the hell is all this type of nomenclature is killing me...hahahah can anyone say.... hook pile tape lowering line assembly not locked properly to the right d-ring...... sheeze I hate jumpmaster school.... I am from fucking east texas....give me a break.....

Joe

........fully seat the slide-tab thong fastener..........

Funny how this shit sticks with you 20 years later.

[Sharky]

Pack closing tie not properly routed through pack opening loop........10 years here.

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F.I.D.O.

[rgrjoe175]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sharky:
[B]Pack closing tie not properly routed through pack opening loop........10 years here.

And those fookin blackhats would stand there at parade rest and give a fookin sermon on the gd nomenclature...and you would watch folks fall by the wayside...helment liner with roster number on the desk....fugg me...
was absolutely shocked when they gave me the diploma.... my first primary was coming back from panama to rock dz in 82 ....thinking man these guys are fucked..hahahahahaah Me the primary..hahahahahah

Joe

[mcdude]

My personal favorite 'pack opening spring band misrouted over ripcord grip'....I actually found that once, while inflight rigging, and JMPIing my AJ.

I thought that he did it, and laughed. He asked me what was funny, and I showed him....his face turned white! OOOPS!

Ah...nomenclature. A major malfunction is still a major malfunction, by any other name! As long as it ain't at JM school.

BTW, we are way off topic from the original thread--I just ran with it!

MD

[This message has been edited by mcdude (edited 12-07-2001).]

[RLTW]

Rotate one jumper to the left...."JUMPMASTER!!!!!!!!!!!"