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Mike
2 May 2000, 16:30
Marine Times 4/24/2000
Review May Make Going Recon Easier

By Gordon Lubold

The commandant of the Marine Corps wants to make life better for reconnaissance Marines.

Gen. James Jones has told Corps officials to "fix" the reconnaissance field, which is still feeling the effects of the military-wide downsizing 10 years ago and has remained undermanned despite high operational tempo. It is unclear exactly how the changes will affect individual "recon" Marines or their units. Promotion opportunities might increase for some, but, depending upon how the changes are made, they may decrease for others.

Either way, Corps officials hope the 26 recommendations now being reviewed by Jones will create a healthier, more stable community that can handle its increasing workload. And ultimately, operational tempo could come down for some of recon's overworked corporals and sergeants. Now, the 0321 reconnaissance military occupational specialty is manned at about 80 percent, a Marine official said.

The commandant "is concerned that, because of the changes that have occurred over the last decade, we do not have the robust reconnaissance community that we once had," said Lt. Col. Mike Robbins, head of the ground combat section for the Plans, Policy and Operations Section at Headquarters Marine Corps. "We want to get back to that; we want to get back to a community that is grown and nurtured."

To fix the shortfall, Jones will consider recommendations to lower the general technical, or GT, score required to get into the program from 110 to 105; standardize the Corps' two basic reconnaissance courses held in Virginia and California; and even shorten the 11-week course by 10 days.

About 64 Marines, E-1s through E-4s, may move laterally into the 0321 specialty, which would bolster officials' efforts to fully man the field.

Robbins said he could not talk specifically about the entire recommendations list until after Jones has approved them. But the effort to improve the program ultimately will be felt not only by the ground reconnaissance community that reports to the division commander, but also by the "deep" or force reconnaissance population, including aerial, sensor and radio recon, which reports to the Marine Expeditionary Force commander, Robbins said.

Improving recon is a work in progress, Robbins said, and will continue for some time. By Jones' order, the field should be stable by July 2004. The focus now, however, is to improve the lot for ground reconnaissance Marines -- those who report to the division commander -- who are selected for the basic reconnaissance course out of boot camp. Keeping enough of those entry-level Marines qualified for recon is a problem now, said Maj. Duffy White, the infantry occupational field manager at Marine Corps Headquarters.

"That's where we're hurting the most," he said. Recon was considered a "robust" specialty until the drawdown of the early 1990s limited the number of recon Marines. Then, in November 1998, the Corps began using a recruiting tool that "guaranteed an opportunity" for recruits to apply to the recon program. It also made 0321 a primary MOS.

The recruiting program has been somewhat successful. Just halfway through this fiscal year, it is filled to capacity with more than 230 men. However, problems with training and other difficulties is resulting in a shortage of qualified Marines entering the recon field.

Attrition at the basic reconnaissance course, which includes swimming, scuba and parachuting, is down to 30 percent from roughly 50 percent two years ago, White said. But that's still high, so Jones is looking at ways to further reduce attrition and put more qualified Marines into the recon field. Shortening the training schedule between recruit training, the school of infantry and the basic reconnaissance course, for example, is one possibility. Lowering the GT score, which would widen the pool of potentially qualified applicants, is another. Studies have shown that lowering the score would widen the pool of eligible Marines, but not have an appreciable impact on the quality of the applicants, who nonetheless have to pass the recon course anyway.

In coming months, officials also will address the problems for those sergeants and above who are now in the recon field. Tours with recon as an additional MOS are offered now, but only lance corporals and privates first class can make lateral moves into the recon field and change their primary MOS to recon. That improves promotion opportunities for the junior Marines while at the same time allowing E-5s and above to compete for promotion within the larger infantry population.

Ensuring that the Corps keeps more senior recon Marines happy is just as important, Robbins said, because of the valuable experience they provide. "It's not just the number of Marines, but we're also looking to the experience of Marines because of the unique requirements of the recon Marine," he said.

josepy
2 May 2000, 19:30
What I am reading is, lower the bar so we can fill more seats.

Anyone disagree?

RAT
2 May 2000, 21:34
You know I don't. Lat move e-1 to e-3 OK, no NCO's unless they go thru SOI,S/S,ARC, Ranger. All I see is a bunch of NCO's looking for the jump and dive club (Badge hounds). At least young Marines can be trained in the S/S or Recon way of programing, NCO's have to be traind that a e-3 with 2 years on a S/S or a Recon team knows a bunch of stuff and can lead a team Suqad, Plt, or company if need be. This was done at 3rd Recon when I was there it was a bad move. In order to do this the Marine must have a good GT score, NCO's can't have I'm a MARINE NCO attitude, and the standards have to remain high or else do away with recon all togther; have recon squads out of the div line co's. Like they do do with the MEUSOC now.
My .02
RAT OUT!!!

[This message has been edited by RAT (edited 05-02-2000).]

josepy
3 May 2000, 01:01
That is one thing I liked about STA. You could 86 someone at a drop of a hat. Come in with a 'tude? Later.

lavbo0321
3 May 2000, 01:21
Let the Hazing Begin!!!

The only way this could work is if they created a school that is a selection and training course. Not just watered down BUD/S.
Make it heavy on seletion so we can get those born with the three most importent triates a recon Marine should have.

Intelligence
Dedication
Self-reliance

Of course the wash out rate would be high, but it would be worth it in the end.

Call it RIP (Reconnaissance Introduction Program) make about twelve weeks long and focus on patroling and all the skills it entials.

Rope
3 May 2000, 18:46
I completed 9 weeks of RMAT and now going through 12 weeks of RIP which began, as a matter of fact, this Monday. This RIP course is designed as to be the same as the BRC in EWTGLANT,Fort Story VA. Upon gradutation of this course, we will be awarded the 0321 MOS.

It appears to me that everyone is very convinced that the basic training standards are low, and that the current "screening" tryout process has lowered the quality of new Recon Marines. I am convinced otherwise....

We have lowered the try out process, but training standards are the same. We still all the crazy shit you senior members of the communtiy remember. Hazing, is a dead policy in goody-2-shoes Marine Corps, not here. Today being the 3rd training day, we have had 2 DORs already. How many more? I don't know. As you can see from this, those who don't pack it might make it through the screening, but they won't make it out into the teams. In order to graduate RMAT, you had to take the INDOC, which we all know, in 2nd Recon, hasn't changed since the 80's. (I don't know about the 70's) Those who don't pack the 110 GT score have paid. They work harder to catch up with academic classes, and understand the task at hand. On the other there are many 125 and above wiz kids that can solve high-speed mathematical equations but cannot patrol because they lack common sense, which as we know is one the 5 principles. I myself posses a 111 GT score which 1 point above the baseline requirement, and there were guys with much higher GT scores. I, however, graduated as the academic honor grad from RMAT. So lowering the GT score requirements to 105 won't make that much of a difference if you ask me. Those who want it, will excell.
I do, however, disagree with shortening the course. There is much to learn in very little time. I myself think it should be another month longer so things could be taught throughly. (then again, you'll more and the more important stuff, such as SOP once you get to the teams.)

Got to get ready for tomorrow. Semper Fi

YTDEVIL
3 May 2000, 21:49
Well put Rope......well put....

JPT
3 May 2000, 21:58
Rope,
I am curious to find out more about this RMAT program and the RIP program that you are in. I am very familiar with the West coast to Okinawa Marine Reconnaissance Units selection and training methods, but this RMAT program is new to me. I am sure that it is new to all of the other team guys that have been around for a while who visit Tom's site. Although it is a new program, it sounds as if RMAT is a combined unit RIP program. Where is it run at and what unit runs it (i.e. 2nd Recon Bn.)? Also what unit conducts the RIP that you are currently in. Is it a primary MOS producing course? I am sure that your RIP cadre is letting you guys off by 1430 and you've been hanging out at the beach (haha), but if you have the time I would be interested to hear what is going on over there. Hang in there Marine, although you are just starting off, believe me it is worth it in the end. "Fin Faster, Fin Harder! Drive on Recon!!"

lavbo0321
4 May 2000, 15:19
Rope

You are in the first week of RIP, Wednesday night and you are on the internet.

UUUmmmm

Naw. Standards haven't changed......

My first week in RIP (1987) Wednesday night we just began a four day no sleep and no food. Unless you have a lap top in your Ruck the standards have changed. DOR. Drop on Request. I never heard of it until G.I. Jane came out. We call them quiters.



[This message has been edited by lavbo0321 (edited 05-04-2000).]

Cayenne6
27 May 2000, 08:23
I am new to this board and being one of the semi-old corps Recon age I really have very little understanding of what training is like now. I am sure that it is tougher that it was back then. I was with Recon in Nam and some of the guys I served with didn't have any Recon training at all. Recon needed warm bodies fast and they pulled them from the grunts and put them through a 5 day indoc and then stuck them in a team. Most of them servived. Some of them even became team leaders. While I agree that the standards should be set high and selective there is such a thing as too high. Myself, I wasn't jump or scuba qualified and was in Bn rather than Force. But in Nam both units did the same job. Both had excellent records and I believe clearly defined their roles. I realize that today things are vastly different but if the standards are lowered a little there will be some men that would make it that other wise wouldn't. There would be some bad ones also but Recon has a way of getting rid of them just naturally. If I tried today I might be one of the ones that would just barely miss the mark. But I have no doubt that I could do what I did in combat back then. Was a team leader, decorated 3 times for valor under fire, and kept my men alive. All I am trying to say is that Jones, who is highly pro Recon, is trying to better Recon. It will be up to the individual units to weed out the bad ones.

JOE-BOO
27 May 2000, 20:29
WOW...you guys really do want to be like your big sister (service)...Are you trying to get some of our action again????

I can't beleive they have to lower the bar to get 64 guys from the Corps. This doesn't make any sense...hhhmmmm....I wonder if they allow interservice transfer.....(pipedream)

OldSFer
27 May 2000, 23:02
Time to play on the internet while a trainee!! My, my what is the Corp coming to these day?

Happy Memorial Day Marines

Unferth66
31 May 2000, 09:31
Hello everyone,
I think that lowering the GT score will have little effect on the quality of the Marines in the Recon indoc program. I'm strongly opposes to the shortening of the training by 10 days. Marines and all branches of the service need to know all the skills that will keep yourself and the team alive in combat. Actual Combat is what we're training for, not a paintball game. I don't know about everyone else, but I would like to as much as I can to win and keep myself alive in a real world situation. Shortening the course will leave the Marines not as well prepared for combat, and isn't that what this is all about in th end? I'm not in the service yet, but in June I will be attending the Naval Academy to become a Marine officer, I don't know everything, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Dave

JOE-BOO
31 May 2000, 11:36
A common theme I hear is "you will get more training at your unit"...I do not know if this is neccessarily a good thing...but I do know this...Schools are not wear you get the best training (generally)...What is a problem is that school appear in my eyes to be places of valuation rather than education..."Come here knowing your shit and we do not have to focus on teaching as much"...

To length of a school is not relevant to overall product...its methods and the mindset of the students and cadre make the difference

I took a three day/30 hour H2H course and learned more than many people who study martial arts for years...I could go into secifics, but the important factors are the enviroment, teachers level of knowledge, and student's ease of adaption and method of communication...time is part of enviroment

Example...Airborne is 3 weeks/15 days...it could be taught in 3 days or less...why 3 weeks???...logistics mostly

11ZULU out

josepy
31 May 2000, 14:30
"What is a problem is that school appear in my eyes to be places of valuation rather than education..."Come here knowing your shit and we do not have to focus on teaching as much"...

That is nothing like Marine Sniper School.

JOE-BOO
31 May 2000, 16:21
damn...I hope not....but 30 years ago Airborne was not a finger drill either...but sniper is a much more in depth and life risking activity

Snake
31 May 2000, 21:55
Uh, Lt,
I gotta call you on that one. Airborne school may be easy....but, wait until your first live Brigade-level drop, and the Air Force fumbles the ball(you!). One second, "GERONIMO"...The next, "AHHHH, TREEEEEEEEEEEESSSS!!!". Been There, Done That. Airborne school prepares you for "Parachuting, Military, Static-Line". It does not do a good job of preparing you for the Drops, when you look around and see a bunch of people not getting up, and hear "Medic". Unimproved surfaces are
-different- than the sandbox at Benning. Add in darkness, no moon, iffy winds, and hearing the riggers brag about "last night's bender", and things get awful interesting, awful fast.

Snake
25th ID(L)

JOE-BOO
1 June 2000, 00:37
Snake...that was what I was saying...these schools are just that...the serious training is at the units...what I was trying to say is that common perception is that more time at school means better qualified student...big nada....time at school should not be an assessment of the quality of the students it prodces....after all CGSC is a year!!

Snake
1 June 2000, 08:12
Ahh,
gotcha, Sir. One thing I'll point out to back that up: While your at Airborne school and whatever high-speed, bad haircut school you've gotten, all the skills, not being taught at that school, are quietly rotting...

Snake
25th ID(L)
"Lightning Leads The Way"

Rope
12 June 2000, 20:07
Those out there who think training and school's now a days are easy and are a joke,
I am sure your training and days were harder than everyone elses'. But then again, isn't that the common attitude of those older guys?
"When I went through, it was so hard that...blah blah" Yeah yeah, you're the hardest motherfucker that walked on the face of the earth, whatever.

We've had 2 additional "quitters" (for lavbo since you can't accept "DOR" in your vocabulary). Next week starts our 10 day patrol, and I am sure the one you guys went through was harder.... whatever. 100lbs ruck is still 100lbs, 300 flutter kicks is still 300 flutter kicks, 50 8-count body-builders are still 50 8-count body builders regardless of time, right?

YTDEVIL
12 June 2000, 21:03
When I was your age I walked 5 miles to school in the snow, barefoot, going up hill both ways. And you know what? We liked it. We didn't have Nintendo, we had rocks, that's all we had to play with rocks!

Just thought I would lighten up the situation, with an impersonation of all of our old salty ass fathers.
YTDEVIL S/S PLT 1/1 96-98

Rope
14 July 2000, 23:26
Good Evening everyone. This my final update before graduation. 2 DORs in Greece, 2 DORs and 2 Med Drop from Patrol phase, and 1 Med drop from amphib phase so far. The class is very small right now.

FYI...my ruck and duece gear weighed 124lbs before stepping off on the 10 day patrol, the heaviest man's was 156lbs. Yes, on the knee the entire time if not moving.

Approx. a week and a half till graduation. Will give a final report then. At that time everyone decide for yourselves on how current basic reconnaissance training is conducted.

mioshfletch
15 July 2000, 17:52
ROPE,
I was wandering was the operation in Greece called "dynamic mix 2000" ? Just curious because I talked to a man named GySgt William Shantz who gave me an article on the Reconnaissance Marines Awaiting Training(RMAT). It is about RMAT-2 platoon at Camp Alexander, Greece and there is a picture of 4 marines from RMAT-2 along side this article.I am guessing this is where your platoon had the two DOR's?
Who knows the picture could be you, if you want it let me know i will be happy to mail it to you.
mitch