Favorite technique

[chokeu2]

In the interest of generating some discussion in here, and for the sake of learning from others; I am curious to know what your favorite technique of the moment is.

Being a BJJ, Thai, and Kali guy that is where my interest can be found, and I can be fairly dogmatic about it. So I am intersted in knowing what others are working on because I figure if nothing else, I can spur more practice on defense of things that i may not have thought of.

Right now, I am particularly interested in sweeps from the guard. This has come from working with some sizeable guys (300+), and getting my ass taken down hard. Being that I float between 215 and 220, trying to take down a guy that big is akin to a moth running into a car. I especially like sweeps that offer very rapid retaliation, like a scissor sweep to triangle or armbar. A necessary tactic when going against a larger opponent.

Naturally, having a good sweep in a grappling situation is always handy when you need to set someone up. My thinking towards grappling is all about positioning, and nothing gets you into position better than a good sweep. `

[fish78]

Beyond opening gambits I think that you cannot afford favorite techniques. I think you have to take targets as they present themselves. As I have no interest in sport fighting, I concentrate on edge of hand blows, elbows, chin jabs, tiger claws and low kicks (edge of boot) and knee stomps. The key is aggressive forward drive.

[chokeu2]

Agreed, perhaps I could have worded it differently by asking what it is that individuals are working on right now.

I too work on "real world" technique, it is a crazy person that does not. And I go through phases of working on striking more than anything else. Right now I am enjoying turning the tables.

[Daredevil]

My sweeps are lousy. Especially in a no-gi situation. At 165, I'm one of the smaller guys where I train and I find myself on the bottom often. Sweeps are just too hard when a larger guy bases out so I mainly go for subs from the guard. Lately, I've been practicing chaining them together. Armbar to Omaplata to Triangle, things like that.

I'm mainly trying to practice my triangles. I personally feel like that is an excellent move for a smaller opponent against a larger one. I have a hard time sinking the triangle and it's because my technique isn't what it should be. What I've been doing wrong has been pointed out to me, but it's a matter of applying the knowledge that I'm having trouble with.

I learned a couple good no-gi sweeps when Pauslon was in town recently, but again, against someone a lot bigger, I just can't get it to work. Again, I don't think it's the technique is bad, just my attempts to apply it.

I've rolled against a couple 300+ guys. No such thing as a triangle at that kind of difference, I can't even use a closed guard against them. They usually go Muslim on me (lay and pray) anyway since they're often beginners.

[chokeu2]

Originally posted by Daredevil
They usually go Muslim on me (lay and pray) anyway since they're often beginners.

LMFAO! I just coated my keyboard with a fresh layer of good hot black currant tea!

I've had the same issue working sweeps on bigger guys, and thats why I to work them. There are a couple of scissor sweeps and spider guard sweeps that actually do not finish as a sweep but rather morph to an attack at completion that I can post if you're interested.

[XS2]

Originally posted by fish78
Beyond opening gambits I think that you cannot afford favorite techniques.

Bollocks I say!

One of the primary reasons beginner to intermediate fighters struggle against seasoned fighters is exactly because they have no primary techniques to rely on!

You're never going to be able to make anything really functional untill you spend the time to specialise in pet techniques, and develop all the intricacies involved in setting them up.

Untill that happens, you'll just be pissing in the wind waiting for the right time to do whatever, in the hope an opportunity actually presents itself. What you really need to is be able to create your own openings and make techniques happen, and that only comes through specialising in a core arsenal.

[fish78]

OK, what about something similar to an Osoto Garo and a stomp to his throat...I don't like grappling with anybody much less a behemoth...as always bows MUST preceed throws. I have had this done to me by a smaller oponent and I was wheezing for brath 10 minutes later.

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by chokeu2
I've had the same issue working sweeps on bigger guys, and thats why I to work them. There are a couple of scissor sweeps and spider guard sweeps that actually do not finish as a sweep but rather morph to an attack at completion that I can post if you're interested. Absolutely, love to see them, I think I've seen some similar things to what you're talking about.

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by fish78
I don't like grappling with anybody much less a behemoth...as always bows MUST preceed throws. Not necessarily. A guy with a fast shoot can have you down before you know it.

I train with a former collegiate champion wrestler. He can close the gap and have you down and be on top of you faster than you can blink. I'm lucky to get the chance to sprawl.

[fish78]

Have you tried fingers in his eyes?

[socket]

It is far more difficult than you'd think to put up any kind of offense against an A level collegiate wrestler's shot. They are so fast, so smooth, and so good at it you're down before you know it. I have a good sprawl and I'm a very strong guy and I weigh about 230lbs, but when I wrestled a 180 pound guy who came in 2nd place in the Big 12 tournament, he had me on my back before I could do much to stop him, much less jam some fingers into his eyes. These guys shoot low, some even go Cael-style and go for the ankle pick. Too low and too fast to do much about if they're good. You can't really sprawl an ankle pick.

Anyways, back to the sport side of things. I'm good with sweeps, those don't worry me. I like the armbar from the back mount, that's probably my favorite thing to do in a grappling match besides the RNC.

[Daredevil]

When I boxed regularly, I sparred guys that couldn't lay a glove on me, much less hit a target as small as my eyes.

When this guy shoots in so quickly that you don't have time to react with an uppercut or knee, and all you're doing is scrambling for some sense of control as he gets a full mount on you, you aren't going to get his eyes.

When he's fully mounted and raining punches down on you, attempting to grab his throat or strike his eyes is the kind of move a grappler prays for.

[chokeu2]

No need to keep this sport related!
Open discussion about what your currently enjoying working on.

a big no shit on pissing around with a good wrestler! Their domain is getting someone to the ground, and that may seem limited; but damn it when one of them puts you there hard. It will knock the stank right out of you.

OR, some of the judo guys and some of their sweeps and throws! In fact, he is not a judo guy, but my friend that just joined (JGraves) this site is a cop that has one NASTY ass sweep that cleaned my clock one day so fast, it was all I could do to get my composure back and roll on.

Going down like that makes it hard to focus on a specific target such as the eyes, especially if you're up against a guy that has some game. I had guys come and train who always did the "yea but what if I did this" question after they've been shown something, and then they get the answer when the chance for them to try it is thrown out there. In the instance of a guy going for my eyes, it is going to be hard for him to get them because I'm not going to be looking at him and he will not have clear shot to make.

It is actually instances like this that got me into working more on my sweeps. I ended up against some guys that are bigger and stronger than I and needed to work on the stuff that would save my ass, mat or street.

That being said, as Fish said, one cannot really be prepared unless you know where those dirty shots are. No training program that is "real world" geared is complete without such things.

[Caddy]

If a big guy bases himself, and seems unmovable, make a small circle with your lead foot on the ground so that you come in contact with the inner portion of his lead ankle. In is effort to "stay afloat" he's going to adjust, either backwards or to the side....either way he just lost about 40% or so of his body weight against you. Shoot and score.

As far as dealing with wrestlers, you'll need to make a decision, do I maximize distance (or can I for that matter) or do I fight this guy on the ground. If you chose the latter, open up and let him shoot, then execute.

NOTHING IN THIS WORLD IS CERTAIN!

[mac3982]

fish said "tiger claw":D

[fish78]

Originally posted by mac3982
fish said "tiger claw":D
Its what WEF called it, its good enough for me.

[fish78]

http://gutterfighting.org/cestari_tigers_claw.html

[mac3982]

old movie line... :eek: movie was called the new guy.

[fish78]

Originally posted by mac3982
old movie line... :eek: movie was called the new guy.

Old movies were made in the 30s and 40s:D

[RLK]

The Achilles lock.

http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/catch/jsachilles.html

[mac3982]

my fave is the one that works an stops all aggresion, theirs to many to list once you have trained an used them an train some more.

[martialboxer]

Sport: Ippon Seoinage - not a technique that can be applied in every situation... But it's dominating if done right at full speed.

Other than that, I do like that one move that's used in the movies where you look up and once the other guy looks up, you kick him in the groin.

[tony762]

Originally posted by martialboxer
Sport: Ippon Seoinage - not a technique that can be applied in every situation... But it's dominating if done right at full speed.

Other than that, I do like that one move that's used in the movies where you look up and once the other guy looks up, you kick him in the groin.

had a friend of mine at a bar once with another guy, the other guy got into an altercation with a guy, so he takes a big step and a huge swing and kicks the guy right in the balls, my friend reckoned it lifted the guy off the ground, the guy who was kicked laughed and advanced, the kicker ran like f**k! :D
the secret i think (IMHO) is not to line someone up etc.. dont square up to anyone, be passive, then explode on them with eye, throat strikes etc... my goal is to end the fight immediately in the first strike (or two), the biggest thing i work on is mental conditioning.

[Ranger002]

Atemi followed up by Iriminage "toss" works both on boxers and grapplers. The key for me is timing I have to get the guy to bite when I open for him and then just let him in. Most do however...LOL

It always surprises folks from other Martial Arts when they see we have effective punching, kicks, and "sweeps" My only problem in practice is that we have to go "full speed" more often to get the timing down..and that can hurt :D

William Hazen

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by tonyh762
had a friend of mine at a bar once with another guy, the other guy got into an altercation with a guy, so he takes a big step and a huge swing and kicks the guy right in the balls, my friend reckoned it lifted the guy off the ground, the guy who was kicked laughed and advanced, the kicker ran like f**k! :D
the secret i think (IMHO) is not to line someone up etc.. dont square up to anyone, be passive, then explode on them with eye, throat strikes etc... my goal is to end the fight immediately in the first strike (or two), the biggest thing i work on is mental conditioning.

"In (our) Aikido The fight is over the moment of first contact"

Shoji Nishio Shihan.

This is a great discription of what a real world encounter with someone who trained in our Aikido would look like..and also the challange of practice. I have a difficult time in my dojo trying to get my students to go full speed during practice.


William Hazen

[chokeu2]

Hazen, I'm not familiar with Iriminage "toss". Is that something that would be effective against a good double leg takedown from a wrestler? I ask because you said that is effective against grapplers, and I've never had the pleasure of rolling with an aikido guy. Some I'm very curious.

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by chokeu2
Hazen, I'm not familiar with Iriminage "toss". Is that something that would be effective against a good double leg takedown from a wrestler? I ask because you said that is effective against grapplers, and I've never had the pleasure of rolling with an aikido guy. Some I'm very curious.

Well I cross train with with BJJ and MMA folks and I practiced Judo for about 15 years or so I am familier with most of the attacks and sweeps... Basic Iriminage is were the Nage (Defender) guides the Uke (attacker) by presenting a vulnerable position to him. Once the Attacker commits (in your example a double leg takedown I wrestled and did judo in high school :) ) The defender steps slightly off the line off the attack and unbalances the attacker throwing and pinning him. If it is needed a sharp strike to a vulnerable area helps further guide the attacker. If the attacker succeeds well that calls for a change in technique. :D

We measure our technique ONLY by how effective it is against other Martial Arts and it is constantly evolving... when Ju-Jitsu came back on the scene we Borged it. within the realm of Aikido of course. I hope this answer was clear...

William Hazen

[chokeu2]

Clear!
So it is a basic misdirection of energy. It does allow me to see a basic tactical difference in style, which is cool. Correct me if I am wrong, but your intent in that situation would have been to end the situation right then?

If you don't mind, indulge me for a second and tell me what you would have done had this takedown been succesful. I'm glad to know you're an aikido guy. I know a couple of aikido guys, and they seem a bit sensitive to such questions, so I've hesitated to hedge a technical discussion because I wouldn't want them to think that I was trying to assert some type of superiority or some junk like that.

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by chokeu2
Clear!
So it is a basic misdirection of energy. It does allow me to see a basic tactical difference in style, which is cool. Correct me if I am wrong, but your intent in that situation would have been to end the situation right then?

If you don't mind, indulge me for a second and tell me what you would have done had this takedown been succesful. I'm glad to know you're an aikido guy. I know a couple of aikido guys, and they seem a bit sensitive to such questions, so I've hesitated to hedge a technical discussion because I wouldn't want them to think that I was trying to assert some type of superiority or some junk like that.

Almost...More like using your energy against you. The harder you attack the easier it is to apply a technique. Of course learning this is difficult and takes years that is why the learning curve of an Aikido person is about ten years just to understand the basics very well. It is quite a challange let me tell you...

Well most but not all Aikido guys should feel sensitive... although some Aikido features Suri-Waza (spelling) aka "kneeling" techniques Aikido does not have ground fighting per se and it is not taught in most Aikido Dojos. It is a definate weakness. The opportunity to end a fight occurs several times within one technique as our Aikido (this is a key principle here) beginning with the moment of contact and ending with pinning your opponent. Properly executed your opponent is always open and vulnerable and you are always "safe" A key differance between us and most Aikido Schools is that we emphasize the Martial Aspect first and the Philosophy second. Shoji Nishio Shihan sees no point in learning something that has no practical value and leaves a person defenseless against another Martial Artist or fighter.

The thing that surpises most MMA and BJJ practicioners is how difficult it is to get a well trained Aikido person to the ground. The first thing a person learns in Aikido (and it takes years) is to move from your center and to be fluid and grounded at the same time. A good Aikido person is very hard to move. I would hope that thier Aikido Sensei is like ours and encourages them to learn from you. They can only benefit from it.

Now you know the reason I am cross training in ground fighting is to suppliment my Aikido... Knowing how to cross face, brace and pin someone and/or choke them out or arm bar them is a very good thing to learn. :D

I am blessed to be able to start learning from Santos Flaniken. He is one of the best here in So Cal and we both agree we have much to offer each other in the way of cross training. He is still going down twice a week to LA and training with Gokor and Gene Labell and thier crew of fighters. I just spoke with him Sunday and I hope to attend his class next Sunday.

This old dog loves to learn new tricks :D

William Hazen

Take Care

[SGTROCK]

william,do you know of a good Aikido scholl in Hong Kong? A friend of mine asked and I had no clue about Japanese arts in China! thanx

Kirk

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by SGTROCK
william,do you know of a good Aikido scholl in Hong Kong? A friend of mine asked and I had no clue about Japanese arts in China! thanx

Kirk

http://www.aikido.com.hk/

Seems to be the only school...I don't know much about them but they practice Hombu (Old school) style however I would not be surprised if they have been influanced by the many different Chinese styles and Sifus.

William

[tony762]

Originally posted by RangerHazen
"In (our) Aikido The fight is over the moment of first contact"
Shoji Nishio Shihan.
This is a great discription of what a real world encounter with someone who trained in our Aikido would look like..and also the challange of practice. I have a difficult time in my dojo trying to get my students to go full speed during practice.
William Hazen

i hear you with the training, its not so easy to do when every move is so damageing.
i know of a mantis kung fu school, who train wearing googles, so as not to loose an eye etc... during training, quite realistic from what i hear.

[Gryfen-FL]

Favorite technique: insert puppydog eyes here "Don't hurt me, im just a little girl". :D

In all seriousness....I 'm curious about the sweeps Chokeu2 was talking about:
There are a couple of scissor sweeps and spider guard sweeps that actually do not finish as a sweep but rather morph to an attack at completion that I can post if you're interested

[socket]

RangerHazen, what exactly would you do to stop me from taking you down? For argument's sake let's say I shot a single leg.

I'm not trying to be a prick here, I'm just trying to learn.

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by socket
RangerHazen, what exactly would you do to stop me from taking you down? For argument's sake let's say I shot a single leg.

I'm not trying to be a prick here, I'm just trying to learn.

I have no defense against guns....Ohh you mean like grab my leg? LOL Well it would depend I guess... how can I get specific here... Lets just say what I would do is "offer" my leg for you to take down and depending on how you moved I would connect and blend with your attack ( in basketball and football they call it beating you to the spot.Timing is the key) When in the Dojo I am not allowed to break fingers or arms, gouge eyes, or punch you in the throat. What throws folks I cross train with is that there is no fighting stance in our Aikido and hence no way to judge my intention...I also present a passive posture which further dissipates an attack from a psychological/emotional point of view. We call it Yurusu Budo or the "Budo of Acceptance." Rather than resist such a move I would "open up to it" by entering into it towards you (not try to counter or avoid it) and then blend with it and use your energy to guide you. I don't know if I can tell you as much as show you so hopefully someday you'll see it. :)

I hope I explained it.

Here is an old clip of Shoji Nishio Shihan Demonstrating back in 1986 and it kind of gives you an idea of what our Aikido is like. Sorry it's a bit fuzzy

http://www.hvezdicka.cz/ba/mpeg/005_Nishio_High.WMV

William Hazen

[martialboxer]

Who is the guy on the left? Compared to Shoji Nishio Shihan, he is nowhere near as graceful or smooth in his movements. It might be the fuzziness, but is he punching with his knuckles? Then again, most people would look a bit awkward facing your late instructor.

Anyway, I have done a bit of training in kenjutsu but even then, I hear this and that about "Aikido 'Swordsmanship.'" This probably have come from the various people being drawn toward the exotic nature of swordsmanship and its value in history. Nothing wrong with that, but then you get people who cannot even hold a sword properly who attempt to cut logs and trees and have forms with fancing twirls and swirls. It would not be that bad considering a well-made folded sword will range over $800 and a monosteel blade usually ranging from $250-$700. Then you have the people who try to cut with $40 stainless steel wallhangers. Swords are sharp and even the smallest error will have you bleeding on the way to the hospital.

Shoji Nishio Shihan does a good job of dispelling the conceited view that "real kenjutsu" practitioners have. Yes, I have an untrained eye in swordsmanship, but anybody can see how quick and deliberate every one of his movements are.

[tony762]

Originally posted by RangerHazen
Here is an old clip of Shoji Nishio Shihan Demonstrating back in 1986 and it kind of gives you an idea of what our Aikido is like. Sorry it's a bit fuzzy

nice video, very smooth and effortless.
two questions,
1, have you come up against a style you have had particular trouble with, technique wise?
2, have you trained with any good kung fu styles?

i have dabbled abit with wingchun and found it to be very effective, but not quite as complete a style as i would have liked.
was looking at ju jitsu or aikido to round things out but not really too sure about them.

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by tonyh762
nice video, very smooth and effortless.
two questions,
1, have you come up against a style you have had particular trouble with, technique wise?
2, have you trained with any good kung fu styles?

i have dabbled abit with wingchun and found it to be very effective, but not quite as complete a style as i would have liked.
was looking at ju jitsu or aikido to round things out but not really too sure about them.

We used to share space with Jon Fong who is a Sifu in Kung Fu San Tzu (San Soo) as it was taught to him by the great Jimmy Woo. Our styles were remarkably alike in allot of ways and since I am always learning and I have had two left feet since I was born. I am always having trouble with new styles. LOL Our Aikido is vastly different from most and if you practice something like Wing Chung, Ryu Te, or JKD they will compliment each other rather well. Nishio Shihan made it a point to incorporate strikes and kicks into our "style" and indeed all our techniques start and end with the "Rythem of Atemi" (strikes). If you look closely you will see that the movements with the Bokken (sword), Jo (staff) and empty hand are the same and this is deliberate. Yoshinkan Aikido is also very very good and more Martial than most Aikido so if you find a good Yoshinkan school that would be a good way to go.

William Hazen

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by martialboxer
Who is the guy on the left? Compared to Shoji Nishio Shihan, he is nowhere near as graceful or smooth in his movements. It might be the fuzziness, but is he punching with his knuckles? Then again, most people would look a bit awkward facing your late instructor.

Anyway, I have done a bit of training in kenjutsu but even then, I hear this and that about "Aikido 'Swordsmanship.'" This probably have come from the various people being drawn toward the exotic nature of swordsmanship and its value in history. Nothing wrong with that, but then you get people who cannot even hold a sword properly who attempt to cut logs and trees and have forms with fancing twirls and swirls. It would not be that bad considering a well-made folded sword will range over $800 and a monosteel blade usually ranging from $250-$700. Then you have the people who try to cut with $40 stainless steel wallhangers. Swords are sharp and even the smallest error will have you bleeding on the way to the hospital.

Shoji Nishio Shihan does a good job of dispelling the conceited view that "real kenjutsu" practitioners have. Yes, I have an untrained eye in swordsmanship, but anybody can see how quick and deliberate every one of his movements are.

Shoji Nishio is still alive and just retired from active teaching last year. And boy are you right about Kenjutsu and Koryu practioners LOL but most of them have no idea about our Aikido which is based on the Sword. I had a very destingushed Kenjutsu practioner come to our Dojo ealier this year and he had never seen our kind of movement before in Ken te Ken. Nishio Shihan has a huge following in Japan and Europe but has few real Sensei's here. Hopefully that will change in my lifetime.

William Hazen

[chokeu2]

RH,
Thanks for the well thought out reply. Definitely makes me want to consider learning more about aikido.

However, socket does raise a good question. I understand about being compliant, I'm a BJJ guy and that is part of our game too. And I understand about allowing or offering an opening in an effort to bait your guy; but what if you have a guy who, like me knows how to shoot in for a double leg, single leg, or an ankle pick? This happens very fast, and the blunt force to the knee's and lower body is very high, which doesn't really allow for a redirection let alone an opportunity for the shooter to further harm himself by applying more of his own pressure.

Do you make provisions to sprawl and apply a choke, joint lock or pull to guard?

[Daredevil]

I'm not used to this level of reasoned and intelligent style vs. style debate....

How about them sweeps friend? :cool:

[Bingo King]

Thanks for sharing that video of Nishio Sensie...that was beautiful. I formerly studied under Saotome Sensei for about 15 years....they appear to be similar in intent and movement.....but that video shows clarity and integrity of movement that I might have seen only once or twice in all my years.

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by chokeu2
RH,
Thanks for the well thought out reply. Definitely makes me want to consider learning more about aikido.

However, socket does raise a good question. I understand about being compliant, I'm a BJJ guy and that is part of our game too. And I understand about allowing or offering an opening in an effort to bait your guy; but what if you have a guy who, like me knows how to shoot in for a double leg, single leg, or an ankle pick? This happens very fast, and the blunt force to the knee's and lower body is very high, which doesn't really allow for a redirection let alone an opportunity for the shooter to further harm himself by applying more of his own pressure.

Do you make provisions to sprawl and apply a choke, joint lock or pull to guard?

Well yes we do make provisions but in my training I am still getting used to these types of attacks as they relate to Aikido. I am personally very comfortable with all three techniques both from Judo and BJJ. This is all hypothetical of course but If I were facing and experianced MMA like Socket or yourself then I might just have to toss my Aikido out the window. You know the old saying "When in Rome"... This may change over time if and when I figure out how to incorporate the spirit of Aikido into a double or single leg take-down. :) Believe me I am used to dealing with both MAA and BJJ folks and so far Aikido works perhaps a quarter of the time and I have a long way to go with it.

William Hazen

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by Daredevil
I'm not used to this level of reasoned and intelligent style vs. style debate....

How about them sweeps friend? :cool:

Sweeps are fairly easy to blend with... since the root of Aikido is Ju-Jitsu and in our case Judo if you put your hands on me then I can control your movment a bit better and blend with/counter the sweep.

William Hazen

[chokeu2]

Originally posted by Daredevil
I'm not used to this level of reasoned and intelligent style vs. style debate....

How about them sweeps friend? :cool:

You suck!! :D

Happy?

Right on there man. It is nice indeed. This is just the kind of discussion where I might screw up and learn something.

Gimme a bit to write all that stuff out.
Hazen, the sweeps he is asking about ground based. Knowing there is an aikido guy about, I wouldn't think of trying to detail a stand up sweep!

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by chokeu2
You suck!! :D

Happy?

Right on there man. It is nice indeed. This is just the kind of discussion where I might screw up and learn something.

Gimme a bit to write all that stuff out.
Hazen, the sweeps he is asking about ground based. Knowing there is an aikido guy about, I wouldn't think of trying to detail a stand up sweep!

Who said anything about standing? :)

William Hazen

[67 Fastback]

"Yeah, you look like one of those wristlock motherfuckers."

- guy from my Gungfu school

Locks, I love any kind of lock, particularly wrists. I've had three opportunities to real world apply my techniques, and they did end the altercations by restraint. Bear in mind though, none of these were pissed off drunk 25 year old hardasses...these were guys my age.

Any advice from the very much more experienced guys on here about this would be very welcome. Thanks fellas.

[ch0ker]

Armbars. You can get an armbar from damn near any position. BTW, who saw Hughes' armbar last week in UFC 50? That was beautiful.
Anyway, make that the only move you strive to get and don't let up until you get one. When I trained a lot, I would tell my opponent what arm I was going to bar, so he knew what I was going to do. Do it this way and you learn to trade and manipulate arms, positions, fakes and leads. Of course, a lot can be learned from all these new positions and where you find yourself. "Hey, if I do this and he does this, I can now get this." Like a simple wrist lock after faking an armbar. Or, while opponent is in your guard, and you're crawling up his back and you're setting up an armbar and you let him pull one out arm and slap the triangle on him. Before you know it you're faking one thing to get the other thing and if it doesn't work you reverse it. Fuck this, I'm going to class this week. This is getting me fired up!

Daredevil, you're down in PW County, right? I think we "talked" a while back and there was a Ben, I think his name was, who came from your school to Yamazaki. That cat had a vicious Triangle. You remember who I'm referring to?

You UFC fans will know who my instructor is...the referee Mario Yamazaki. He's a pussy.:D

[Daredevil]

Yep, I know who you're talking about. Ben went and got himself married. Moved to NC and opened Pat's only affiliate school.

We have another guy that trains at a Yamasaki school every so often. Name is Rick. Used to wrestle at GMU and did some MMA matches. He moved away and opened his own place but I think he goes to one of the Yamasaki schools every now and then, as well as coming down where we are every so often.

[Biker B]

My favourite technique? Why Kotegaeshi, of course.


The solution to many of life's problems

[Whiteboy]

Belt buckles on a good leather belt is a good technique along with a glass bottle in the other hand imo. I do think that martial arts are good to train you in fighting discipline, but everyday objects lying around and imagination seem to work better for me.
My mom used to have this extension cord technique that you couldn't defend against.

[tony762]

Originally posted by Whiteboy
Belt buckles on a good leather belt is a good technique along with a glass bottle in the other hand imo. I do think that martial arts are good to train you in fighting discipline, but everyday objects lying around and imagination seem to work better for me.
My mom used to have this extension cord technique that you couldn't defend against.

a good martial art will teach you to use 'everyday objects lying around and imagination'

[chokeu2]

Originally posted by tonyh762
a good martial art will teach you to use 'everyday objects lying around and imagination'

Roger that.
Just because I've been doing what I've been doing for 20 years does not mean that I do not know about a good ole belt buckle and a handful nastiness. :D

[Snake]

Tegatana to the side of the head, just forward of the ear, or to the side of the neck near the junction of the shoulder and the neck.

Worked for me, once in Afghanistan, and twice in Iraq.

Forward thrust-kick to the dantien also works quite well.

That said, if you havent mastered* these basic techniques, trigger-do is your game.


*- by "mastered" I mean of course, developed the skill to generate the force required to attain the desired effect. Just flicking a foot into someones abdomen does not a thrust-kick make. If someone is still moving around and capable of standing upright, you havent mastered it. Same for the tegatana.

There is a reason that mastering a Martial Arts skill is one of the most horrifically boring activities known to man. Rewarding though...

[RagNar2/75]

Striking? Low kicks and knees from the thai clench.

Takedowns? My favorite take down is a single leg or arm drag (Marcelo Garcia style). Pretty effective, the arm drag can really get the back for you.

Submissions? When rolling I like the bicep cutter from the spider guard or a good 'ole triangle.

I HIGHLY doubt that any aikido guy is going to stop an olympic quality wrestler from taking them down. Hell, even a NCAA wrestler. Those shots are so fucking fast and smooth, you wont even see 'em coming. The only defense to a take down like that is to have a great sprawl, which I've never seen any Aikido guys try. I also don't see aikido stopping leg kicks from a thai fighter. In my opinion, to be the most well rounded fighter you can be, you'd learn muay thai or boxing for your standup game, wrestling or judo for your takedowns and brazilian jiu-jitsu for the ground.

[socket]

Nice to see you posting here again RagNar. If you don't remember, I was the one on Sherdog who PMed you and told you about SOCNET. Hope all is well.

[Ranger002]

Striking? Low kicks and knees from the thai clench.

Takedowns? My favorite take down is a single leg or arm drag (Marcelo Garcia style). Pretty effective, the arm drag can really get the back for you.

Submissions? When rolling I like the bicep cutter from the spider guard or a good 'ole triangle.

I HIGHLY doubt that any aikido guy is going to stop an olympic quality wrestler from taking them down. Hell, even a NCAA wrestler. Those shots are so fucking fast and smooth, you wont even see 'em coming. The only defense to a take down like that is to have a great sprawl, which I've never seen any Aikido guys try. I also don't see aikido stopping leg kicks from a thai fighter. In my opinion, to be the most well rounded fighter you can be, you'd learn muay thai or boxing for your standup game, wrestling or judo for your takedowns and brazilian jiu-jitsu for the ground.

So how many Olympic quality wrestlers or NCAA wrestlers have you sparred against? How about Pro Boxers? I will forgive you bro on your lack of knowledge about Aikido, it's origins, techniques, and many different flavors. I for one spar against Muay Thai Boxers and TKD folks all the time. There are plenty of "Aikido" techniques that work. One is to simply close the distance and let the guy kick himself right off his feet. It may result in me getting tagged a few times but it works. Aikido also has ground techniques so I am not sure why you would think that if someone took an Aikidoka to the ground that they would somehow be defenseless? Our Aikido measures it's worth by how effective it is against other Martial Arts. I have no doubt that if I got into the ring with my bro Socket that it would take him only a few minutes to work me over good but that does not mean Aikido doesn't "work" Socket is a Pro and I am a Joe Citizen so when you use the anology about Olympic Quality Wrestlers well having met Dan Severin, the only way I would beat him is to shoot dead center with a 12 gauge. I have not yet run into a situation where Aikido did not work. None. But I am not stupid either. You won't find me in the Octagon anytime soon! Descretion and Awareness are two important hallmarks of the Martial Artist. LOL

Like I tell my students if your Aikido doesn't work it's not Aikido's fault. Practice Hard!

William Hazen

[RagNar2/75]

So how many Olympic quality wrestlers or NCAA wrestlers have you sparred against?

One All American from Colorado. I rolled with him for three years. One All Army Wrestling team guy for about a year. Half a dozen or so NCAA wrestlers as well. No Olympic, but I've gone up against my fair share of good wrestlers.

How about Pro Boxers?

No professional boxers, only professional thai boxers. Pick your poison.

I will forgive you bro on your lack of knowledge about
Aikido, it's origins, techniques, and many different flavors.

I've actually debated these points with aikido guys plenty of times. I heard stories about the founder of aikido defeated half a dozen men at once, and that he caught a jab from a champion bantamweight fighter. He could provide no evidence other than aikido websites to support his claims, defiant of logic as they were.

I for one spar against Muay Thai Boxers and TKD folks all the time.

Shame on you for mentioning TKD with Muay Thai in the same sentence.

There are plenty of "Aikido" techniques that work. One is to simply close the distance and let the guy kick himself right off his feet. It may result in me getting tagged a few times but it works.

The staple foundations of thai boxing are to use elbows, knees and the clench up close, and low kicks at a distance. Stepping in against a low kick moves you into greater danger, and even if you completely avoid it, it's very easy to recover from missing the kick.

Aikido also has ground techniques so I am not sure why you would think that if someone took an Aikidoka to the ground that they would somehow be defenseless?

A base ground game is nice, but against anybody with a submission wrestling background, BJJ or judo, you're probably fucked.

Our Aikido measures it's worth by how effective it is against other Martial Arts.

Then why aren't there more aikido guys in PRIDE/UFC/Shooto/Pancrase and all the other shows out there? I always get the same responses.
1. TRUE martial artists don't have to prove themselves.
2. Their techniques are too deadly for any mere sport.


SHIIIIIIIIT.

I have no doubt that if I got into the ring with my bro Socket that it would take him only a few minutes to work me over good but that does not mean Aikido doesn't "work" Socket is a Pro and I am a Joe Citizen so when you use the anology about Olympic Quality Wrestlers well having met Dan Severin, the only way I would beat him is to shoot dead center with a 12 gauge.

I didn't know that socket was a professional fighter, but I'll assume he knows more brazilian jiu jitsu, muay thai/boxing and wrestling than aikido.

I have not yet run into a situation where Aikido did not work. None. But I am not stupid either. You won't find me in the Octagon anytime soon! Descretion and Awareness are two important hallmarks of the Martial Artist. LOL

I'm sure it works better for situations where you have no other choice but to deal with an armed opponent at close range. That being said, the best aikidoka will get hammered by the best MMA guy in that weight class.

Like I tell my students if your Aikido doesn't work it's not Aikido's fault. Practice Hard!

However, if Aikido doesn't teach you how to check a low kick, it's aikido's shortcoming and not the student's.

William Hazen

Keepin' it real, son! Good discussion.

[Ranger002]

One All American from Colorado. I rolled with him for three years. One All Army Wrestling team guy for about a year. Half a dozen or so NCAA wrestlers as well. No Olympic, but I've gone up against my fair share of good wrestlers.

I wrestled in High School and was in Judo for 13 years before I came to Aikido. I picked Shoji Nishio's style of Aikido for one simple reason. It's techniques when properly applied work effectively against all Martial Arts. It's designed that way. I can't say that about all styles of Aikido however.



No professional boxers, only professional thai boxers. Pick your poison.

A good friend of mine Ricky Jay... fought in Thailand for a couple of years and has been gracious enough to spar with me on occasion. Aikido techniques are not designed to out a box a boxer or out wrestle a wrestler. They are designed to end the confrontation as quickly as possible and (THIS IS KEY) without harm to the attacker (if possible). As a Budo we show our Attacker that at anytime we can hurt them during a technique but we only hurt folks if it is there is no other way and we need to protect or own life. Shoji Nishio Shihan's Aikido combines the very best of the Koryu (combat) Arts with the philosophy of Aikido. I highy doubt you have seen as though is is hugely popular in Europe and Japan. He has few dojos here. I am blessed to have found one. There are other styles of Aikido that are more "combat" oriented but make no mistake Aikido is not about fighting. Nishio Shihan realizes that for Aikido to florish it must be effective in "combat" FIRST then focus on Love and Harmony SECOND. Actually our whole life is dedicated towards blending these two ends of the spectrum together.



I've actually debated these points with aikido guys plenty of times. I heard stories about the founder of aikido defeated half a dozen men at once, and that he caught a jab from a champion bantamweight fighter. He could provide no evidence other than aikido websites to support his claims, defiant of logic as they were.

O'Sensei was simply put... one of the greatest Martial Artists ever (but not the only one) He a had major background in the Koryu (combat) Arts long before he founded Aikido in his 40's. Though some of his stories err on the side of myth I have no doubt that in his prime he could best anyone...Because of his stature he often fought several times a day in his prime as just like in the wild west there is always someone trying to prove themsleves against the very best.



Shame on you for mentioning TKD with Muay Thai in the same sentence.

LOL I guess you don't think too much of TKD but I assure you it's techniques in the hands of a master are the equal of Muay Thai. That goes for any martial art... Otherwise we'll just go round in circles about FORD or Chevy. LOL



The staple foundations of thai boxing are to use elbows, knees and the clench up close, and low kicks at a distance. Stepping in against a low kick moves you into greater danger, and even if you completely avoid it, it's very easy to recover from missing the kick.

Aikido at its best uses the opponents own energy to finish a technique. Allot of folks who see it think its about someone grabbing your wrists.LOL In our Aikido that is true as well. We train beginners in the use of Aikido and it's principles through wrist grabbing. However there is no wrist grabbing with advanced or experianced Aikidoka. Iremi (opening) Maai (distance) Atemi (punching) and/or kicking then execution.



A base ground game is nice, but against anybody with a submission wrestling background, BJJ or judo, you're probably fucked.

Naaaah I hold my own most of the time...:)



Then why aren't there more aikido guys in PRIDE/UFC/Shooto/Pancrase and all the other shows out there? I always get the same responses.
1. TRUE martial artists don't have to prove themselves.
2. Their techniques are too deadly for any mere sport.

Well I think your friends have big mouths typical of most dumbasses so I can't argue with you there.

You will never see an Aikidoka in the ring ever because Aikido is not about fighting but that doesn't mean it would not work. Who knows perhaps some flavor of Aikido like Tomiki or Yoseinkan will show up some day but mainstream Aikido would never ever work in a sport setting.


SHIIIIIIIIT.



I didn't know that socket was a professional fighter, but I'll assume he knows more brazilian jiu jitsu, muay thai/boxing and wrestling than aikido.

I was just giving Socket and the rest of the folks who have dedicated thier lives to mastering thier art proper respect.



I'm sure it works better for situations where you have no other choice but to deal with an armed opponent at close range. That being said, the best aikidoka will get hammered by the best MMA guy in that weight class.

See above.



However, if Aikido doesn't teach you how to check a low kick, it's aikido's shortcoming and not the student's.

Again see above. At least in our Aikido it makes no differance how you attack me. :)



Keepin' it real, son! Good discussion.

Love you too man. But not in a Southern Leg Shaving Batt boy kind of way.:)

William Hazen

[Snake]

One of the main reasons that 90% of wrestlers (HS, NCAA, Olympic) and Boxers (all sorts) will almost always defeat 90% of "Martial Artists"*, is that the wrestlers and boxers are -athletes-.

This has several implications:

1) The -average- Karateka or or Disciple of the Monkey Paw, trains -maybe- 6 hours a week (3x2hrs/week). I never wrestled or boxed in High School, but I played football. Varsity team trained a minimum of 3 hrs a day M-Th, with massive amounts of hrs put in during the Summer.

2) The Boxers and Wrestlers work within a complete stength/endurance plan. Running, weights, calisthenics, sprints, bag workouts, as well as sparring. "Martial Artists" are notorious for thinking that a warmup workout and kata/forms will supplement sparring adequately, and pumping iron will make you "musclebound". Sanchin-kata doesnt cut it today, if it ever did. Someone in great shape with so-so technique will murder a someone who is in lousy shape but has excellent technique. Consistantly.

3) No contact or light contact sparring. Please. If you don't get hit, hard, on a regular basis, Joe the Boxer(who does) has a surprise for you.....

4) MMA practitioners have their own fantasies, regarding how safe it is to get up close and personal with someone who -really- wants to hurt you, whether he has friends in the AO or not. As long as they remember where the sport leaves off and the real world begins, they're OK.

5) If what you want is to get fit, go to the gym and run. Martial Arts arent all that competitive on that front.

6) If you want to defend yourself, get a sidearm and a CCW. Then hit the couch and grab a beer and a pizza.

7) If you want to master your physical capabilities, and develop a weapon that no one can easily take from you, then begin studying a martial art. Bear in mind that 6 hours a week gets you next to nothing. Try 12-15hrs per week, that you could be spending with your wife and kids, or going to school, or hitting the town. It's really boring, and won't seem very impressive to most people. I'm lucky, my Wife is fanatic about her training (Aikido, and now Isshin-ryu) as well.

*-technically, Wrestling and Boxing are martial arts as well, but we nowadays make a false distinction between them and, say, Judo.

**-I am a Sandan (3rd dan Black Belt) in Kyokushin karate, this is what I've studied all my life. I've also had extensive experience (Shodan/1st Dan) in Judo, and have studied the basic techniques of Xingyiquan kung fu. This should give you an idea of where I'm coming from.

[Ranger002]

One of the main reasons that 90% of wrestlers (HS, NCAA, Olympic) and Boxers (all sorts) will almost alway defeat 90% of "Martial Artists"*, is that the wrestlers and boxers are -athletes-.

This has several implications:

1) The -average- Karateka or or Disciple of the Monkey Paw, trains -maybe- 6 hours a week (3x2hrs/week). I never wrestled or boxed in High School, but I played football. Varsity team trained a minimum of 3 hrs a day M-Th, with massive amounts of hrs put in during the Summer.

2) The Boxers and Wrestlers work within a complete stength/endurance plan. Running, weights, calisthenics, sprints, bag workouts, as well as sparring. "Martial Artists" are notorious for thinking that a warmup workout and kata/forms will supplement sparring adequately, and pumping iron will make you "musclebound". Sanchin-kata doesnt cut it today, if it ever did. Someone in great shape with so-so technique will murder a someone who is in lousy shape but has excellent technique. Consistantly.

3) No contact or light contact sparring. Please. If you don't get hit, hard, on a regular basis, Joe the Boxer(who does) has a surprise for you.....

4) MMA practitioners have their own fantasies, regarding how safe it is to get up close and personal with someone who -really- wants to hurt you, whether he has friends in the AO or not. As long as they remember where the sport leaves off and the real world begins, they're OK.

5) If what you want is to get fit, go to the gym and run. Martial Arts arent all that competitive on that front.

6) If you want to defend yourself, get a sidearm and a CCW. Then hit the couch and grab a beer and a pizza.

7) If you want to master your physical capabilities, and develop a weapon that no one can easily take from you, then begin studying a martial art. Bear in mind that 6 hours a week gets you next to nothing. Try 12-15hrs per week, that you could be spending with your wife and kids, or going to school, or hitting the town. It's really boring, and won't seem very impressive to most people. I'm lucky, my Wife is fanatic about her training (Aikido, and now Isshin-ryu) as well.

*-technically, Wrestling and Boxing are martial arts as well, but we nowadays make a false distinction between them and, say, Judo.

**-I am a Sandan (3rd dan Black Belt) in Kyokushin karate, this is what I've studied all my life. I've also had extensive experience (Shodan/1st Dan) in Judo, and have studied the basic techniques of Xingyiquan kung fu. This should give you an idea of where I'm coming from.

Thank You Snake. I think this should be posted on every Martial Arts Forum.

William Hazen

[chokeu2]

That is well worded, but I think that on a couple cases it make some generalizations that are not quite accurate. Taking all of the jazz about getting a ccw, and agreeing with it, I think that it is important to note simply because you chose to mention mma practicioners living in a "fantasy". Just know that while the generalizations do apply for many if not most, mma does place focus quite a bit on "real world" incidents. Its not all about getting to the ground and wailing on someone or trying to pull off an armbar or a triangle; its not all "sport" related. Also, the training for mma guys who do take it seriously is much more than 6 hours a week, and most of the guys are know are on paths very much like what you mentioned for wrestlers. As many of us are former wrestlers, and that is apparent in much of the training in a good group.

This is not to disagree with what you are saying, but perhaps an attempt to evolve upon your statements for the sake of a little more clarity.

That being said, I love what you said about a fighter in better shape with just so-so technique, whooping the ass of the guy with perfect technique. That is gospel. We make sure our fighters know that the conditioned fighter wins the fight, almost always.

[Snake]

you chose to mention mma practicioners living in a "fantasy". Just know that while the generalizations do apply for many if not most, mma does place focus quite a bit on "real world" incidents. Its not all about getting to the ground and wailing on someone or trying to pull off an armbar or a triangle; its not all "sport" related. Also, the training for mma guys who do take it seriously is much more than 6 hours a week, and most of the guys are know are on paths very much like what you mentioned for wrestlers. As many of us are former wrestlers, and that is apparent in much of the training in a good group.

.

I was unclear. I was referring to the UFC/BJJ guys, who -do- seem to attempt to resolve every situation with their forte. Get inside, take it to the ground, submit/strike/choke. Obviously this works well in a UFC-like format, but then, those competitions were set up by and for those folks. In the mid-90's the dominance of MMA and BJJ in these competitions was held up as incontravertible proof of effectiveness. This was in spite of the fact that the Gracies went around openly stating that their habit of going to the ground was only due the fact that their first few opponents were almost exclusively strikers. Notice that when Shamrock and Severn entered the game, the matches started running upwards of 30 minutes. Works for a sport, not for hurting people.

As for training hours, or lack thereof, I was speaking of people who do not, really, take it seriously. People who are in it to excel put in more than 10-20 hours per week. I know a 16 yr old girl who trains in Shotokan for 30 hours a week. I fluctuate, due to duty, between 10 and 18 hrs weekly. However, people like us are in the distinct -minority-. The way it typically breaks down is this:

1) You hit the Dojo 2-3 times a week. 1-1.5hrs each. 15-20 minutes of each session is taken up by warmups.
2) Maybe you run through the kata you know, on the days you do not have a class session.

This is unnacceptable, and is why dan-ranked Karatekas and other traditionalists get their teeth kicked in by some jackass who boxed for 6 months or has a year of BJJ.

Traditionalists (a tribe I reluctantly number myself among) have, largely, drank the koolaid. They believe that proper technique and esoterica will allow them to compensate for weakness in other areas. This is false. 10 years experience in Aikido or Kyokushin will not make up for being 40lbs lighter and weaker than the guy who wrestled for a year in High School.

The sad fact is, you must be at a higher skill level (technique and knowledge), stronger, faster, and better able to manage pain. Any amount of pain. Only once these are achieved can you walk into a confrontation with any certainty of victory. Unless you will confine yourself to fighting only those you percieve to be easy marks.

People respected Oyama Masutetsu because he displayed awesome skill, great strength, excellent speed, and did not fear getting bloodied in a fight.

He also spent the majority of waking hours his entire adult life constantly training. He frankly didnt do much else.

To learn a set of techniques is easy and quick. To learn to -effectively- employ a Martial Art (WHich is a complete -system- of combat) against someone of equivalent skill, who does not like you....requires an investment of time and energy equivalent to that put in by Olympic athletes. Over years and decades.

Unless it's an obession, buy a gun and find another hobby.

[martialboxer]

I'm currently doing both TMA and MMA. Many "regular MA" guys aren't very good training partners because they lack in athleticism, the mentality, or whatnot. In wrestling, there are always very experienced and skilled guys ready to roll with you or drill. In MMA, I've met my share of guys who aren't willing to work and as a result, don't make the best training partners but that number is substantially lower than your typical McDojo. I guess it all depends on yourself, your goals, your instructor, and the atmosphere of your gym.

[Snake]

I'm currently doing both TMA and MMA. Many "regular MA" guys aren't very good training partners because they lack in athleticism, the mentality, or whatnot. In wrestling, there are always very experienced and skilled guys ready to roll with you or drill. In MMA, I've met my share of guys who aren't willing to work and as a result, don't make the best training partners but that number is substantially lower than your typical McDojo. I guess it all depends on yourself, your goals, your instructor, and the atmosphere of your gym.

This is endemic in the "martial arts" culture that has sprung up over the past 3 decades. Several factors have encouraged this:

1) Liability. A LOT of schools and associations forbid sparring, or limit it to
light/no contact point sparring. Insurance would be a nightmare, otherwise.
Especially with kids and teenagers involved. Boxing gyms and school
sports are treated in a vastly different manner, by the insurance
companies.

2) Ego. If you are too "deadly" or "civilized" to use your techniques in a non
scripted encounter, such as contact sparring/randori, nothing is affirmed.
Nothing is disproved, either. So little Joey can go on thinking his 2 Kyu
is proof of combative skill. Until he needs them, then he's dogfood.

3) Incompetant instructors. Notice that most schools produce a Shodan,
then immediately funnel him/her into the "instructor" program? Then they
hit Nidan and open their own club/school. Not every Black Belt is
instructor material. Damned few, in fact. But let's not let reality
intrude on the process of making money, and catering to a wannabe
"sensei's" ego.

4) Fear of pain/injury. People who have not been struck simply cannot
handle the concept of deliberately placing themselves in a pain rich
environment. My WTF-TaeKwonDo friends think I'm nuts for
practicing "knockdown" Karate (no pads, full contact, no hand-to-face).
People who practice Shotokan flinch at the idea of full contact kicking,
in the manner of the WTF, even with torso pads. But no one looks
askance at Judoka tossing each other into the floor, with considerable
force. No one gets punched and kicked, and that seems to be the key.

Not to sound judgemental (no, never that!!!), but if my goal is to develop the ability to emerge victorious from personal combat, and personal combat implies being struck by people who do not like me.....does it not make sense to practice being struck, among friends and in a controlled environment? If I know how what to expect and know I can fight through pain and shock, does this not improve my chances?

As I said, 90% of people practicing martial arts are completely wasting their time, as well as muddying the waters for those who are -truly- serious.

Another 9% are seriously attempting to push their skills as far as they can.

The last <1% are the folks with something to teach worth learning. Guess how easy to find they -arent-?

[Snake]

To rant onward,
Ask the average karateka how often he uses the makiwara or heavy bag for striking practice.....I'll give you a dollar if he -doesnt- look at you like you just started speaking like a "Team America" Arab. Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad.

The neglect of -basic- skills and drills is shocking. How do you know your punches will impact with sufficient force, if you never actually -hit- anything?

Perhaps a basic strength training regimen and speedwork would also help? If you've got great technique, you still must be able to generate energy to put into the technique, and the technique must move through it's range with enough velocity to penetrate and connect.

Technique without Power and Speed = Useless.
Technique with Power but no Speed = Target isnt there.
Technique with Speed but no Power = Who cares.
Technique with Power and Speed = Ouch.

Also, if you havent mastered at least the basics of a system, why do you waste your time picking up another one? "I've got a Brown Belt in X, a Blue in Y, and a Shodan in Z". Wow, you stuck with nothing. This tells me that you probably fight like a drunk. Holding a Shodan tells me that, theoretically, you have mastered the very -basic- techniques of a given style. Kicks and punches and basic movement of the body. That's it!

Far better to invest time in a system, any system, for the long haul. Dedicate yourself to the ideal of mastering a specific system of fighting and I guarantee you, you will be formidable. The Gracies arent famous because of Brazilian Jiujitsu, BJJ is famous because of the Gracies. Bruce Lee could have been trained exclusively in wrestling or Judo, and he would still have been awesome. The style is more or less irrelevant, all things being equal, it's the Will behind it that makes someone dangerous.

BTW, most karatekas do their kata waaaayyy too slow. You're supposed to do them kind of slowed for examinations, so it's obvious that you are doing the correct techniques, in a correct manner. However, when using them as a training tool, do them as fast as you can and still perform the techniques correctly. I have spoken. Fear me.

[3dRanger]

Snake:
This is some of the best points I have ever heard in a Martial Arts Forum. I mean no disrespect to those that choose to study whatever Martial Arts they choose, I studied for eight years. Just realize that a few self-defense classes and a few hours a week at McDojo are just going to get your ass kicked in a real confrontation. People like Chokeu2 and others on this forum are the exception not the rule.

Ray Barger

[colt1rgr]

Katas are like really low speed shadow boxing sessions.

[Snake]

To add to my pompous diatribes:

An update from Italy.

I just got back from a couple of days training with the local Bujinkan group. No names will be mentioned, as they were extremely nice folks, and I have some harsh things to say about them.

To bring everyone up to speed: The Bujinkan (Warrior-God-Training-Hall) is an organization founded by Masaaki Hatsumi to propogate the Nine (9) ryu(systems/schools) he is heir to. 6 of the 9 ryu are basic Shogunate/Meiji-era jujitsu systems. 3 of them are....controversial, in that they -appear- to be ninpo/ninjutsu systems. There is some debate as to whether 8 of the 9 can be traced back earlier than the 1920's, but that is a story in itself.

Now, I spent 48hrs working with these, again very nice, folks. I encountered them through one of my buddies on Post, and was invited to train. I managed to get a good feel for their capabilities.

They suck.

Bad.

They epitomize what is wrong with 95% of Martial Arts practitioners. Judgmental, arent I? Let me explain.

They know hundreds of waza(techniques).
They are not physically capable of bringing off most of these techniques,
against an unwilling adversary.
They cannot strike (punch/kick/knee/elbow) effectively. I mean WAY
wrong.....
They talk (a lot) about Budo No Kokoro, and Warrior esoterica as the
key to victory.
They do not talk about maybe hitting the gym or the track, to shed
that excess 20-30lbs thats slowing you down and throwing your
balance off.
Uke is WAAYYYY too friendly and helpful.
People get tossed into the floor, but nobody gets hit*.
Shidoshi(Instructor) isnt familiar enough with the subject matter.
Nine (9!!!) different ryu are taught in a big jumbled mess of contradictory
techniques and strategies.**

I'm not just being That Karate Guy, whaling on the "exotics". I'm using these nice folks to illustrate the problems that afflict the Dojo-going masses.

If you arent physically strong and fast and balanced enough to fire a technique past the guard of someone who doesnt like you, what's the point? Get in shape, FIRST! I mean really, really, really good shape. Not AMA-recommended "I don't have to worry about arteriosclerosis"-shape. 300 APFT-shape. Guess how you do that? Eat healthy and hit the gym, fatass.

I don't care how your Gansekinage or Kotegaeshi looks, if you cannot punch or kick me in a manner which will reduce my ability to beat you to a pulp. Basics. Basics. Basics. If you cannot throw a punch that will hurt, or kick in such a way as -not- to lose 60% of the power to bad technique, you suck.

A hundred techniques do not mean anything, if you cannot close the distance, seize the opponent, perform the technique, and move off/in. This is Taijutsu (body-movement). You could spend a year just learning to transition between ranges (outside/distant/close/inside). You cannot learn to use techniques in isolation.

Friendly Uke is fine. For people who just started. For those who have presumably become proficient at a technique....HE IS THE ENEMY!!!!! People who you try to perform the O-Goshi on, will occasionally object. Train for this.

Do not try to learn a new thing each week. Master what you have, and only then should you consider moving on. ref:kicks and punches.

If your instructor just recently learned something, he should NOT be teaching it. Also, an instructor should/must have a LOT of experience with the given subject/system/art. No, two or three years does not suffice. Try ten. You can learn to play football pretty well, in a couple of years. Think you should apply to Coach at the University of Florida? No jokes, please.

My nutshell, off the cuff analysis of the Bujinkans problems boils down to this: Lack of oversight. Lots of Shodans getting courtesy bumps to Instructor-rank (whatever it is), and then being turned loose with little or no oversight. Trying to cover 9 ryu as a whole, with no differentiation between them. I.e. you cannot just learn Togakure-ryu, it's mixed in with the other 8. As some of these ryu neccessarilly contradict each other with regard to philosphy, technique, and overall strategy, it leave you trying to learn a mess.

This is what happens within (many) MMA programs, where they simply try to layer Muay Thai techniques onto a BJJ matrix. Two diametrically opposed combative outlooks shoehorned together.


*-if you want to survive a fight, train that way. That means hard contact, knockdown sparring.

**-Imagine if, in college, they taught you Calculus, Chemistry, and Latin randomly in a single 90-minute class with no overarching structure.

[Snake]

BTW, I feel it important to add:

I have been to the Bujinkan Hombu Dojo, in Chiba. Both Soke Hatsumi and his Shihan (senior instructors) are true badasses. Nagato-sensei, in particular, is a man I'd like on my side in a fight. Soke Hatsumi was a high level Judo competitor -before- he met Takamatsu and began training in Ninjutsu. Snappy dresser, too.


The quality problem emerges when folks get out of sight of the Honchos. Lots of folks got courtesy ranks and then went back home, portraying themselves as legit instructors. Even more did the bare minimum to achieve instructor status, then blazed a trail home to transmit their crappy skills. _I_ think that the original group was so excited about how they were recieved, outside of Japan*, that they let unscrupulous folks run wild.



*-telling the avergae Japanese that you are training in Ninjutsu, is comparable to letting it slip to a New Yorker that you are training to become Batman...

[socket]

This is what happens within (many) MMA programs, where they simply try to layer Muay Thai techniques onto a BJJ matrix. Two diametrically opposed combative outlooks shoehorned together.

Talk about a sweeping generalization. Please explain how you came to this conclusion. How many MMA gyms have you trained at? Which specific gyms are guilty of this in your experience?

[Daredevil]

The head of my school is also certified in Jun Fan and Kali/Escrima under Dan Inosanto. He tends to focus on those for the self-defense-get-your-ass-out-of-trouble-in-a-hurry situations.

He likes to say that what works in the ring won't always work in real life, and what would work in real life won't always work on a guy who has trained to fight in the ring.

I'm convinced that trying Jun Fan stuff against a trained fighter in a ring would be the fast track to getting your ass beatdown. However, against some untrained beligerent dickhead that his blocking your ability to leave a bad scene, it would get the job done fast and in a hurry. Especially if you train Paul Vunak style and going all out with your straight blasts on a partner wearing a motorcycle helmet.

Either way, someone who seriously trains in a good MMA curriculum has usually developed the skill set and the physical attributes to handle their average attacker IMO.

[Snake]

Talk about a sweeping generalization. Please explain how you came to this conclusion. How many MMA gyms have you trained at? Which specific gyms are guilty of this in your experience?


University of West Florida BJJ club. Pensacola, FL.

Thunderzone Martial Arts. Honolulu, HI.

Daimyo Martial Arts. Tampa, FL.

Define MMA for me, as opposed to Jujutsu (Brazilian or Japanese)?

Also, I put a caveat in my statement. "Many". Not all, not most.

Anytime you figure, "Well, if I take Muay Thai on Mondays and Thursdays, and BJJ on Saturdays..." and think you have anything resembling a coherent fighting strategy.......your kidding yourself.

Note: I have a narrower view of "MMA", a term which I do not like, as it isnt precise enough. BJJ, Shootfighting, Pancration, JKD, etc, would not fall into the MMA bracket, as they were not -mixes- at all, but coherent systems built from the ground up.

[Snake]

Having said horrible things about the MMA community, I will now complement them, sort of....

The average MMA practitioner, or UFC-wannabe, trains about 3-4 TIMES as hard as the top 10% of karateka. From PT, to # of hrs on the mats. Trained physical ability makes them good.

[Spinner]

2) Ego. If you are too "deadly" or "civilized" to use your techniques in a non
scripted encounter, such as contact sparring/randori, nothing is affirmed.
Nothing is disproved, either. So little Joey can go on thinking his 2 Kyu
is proof of combative skill. Until he needs them, then he's dogfood.



I attended my nieces holy communion a couple of years ago and her cousin on my brother-in-laws side was there, young girl about 10-11 years old. She and her parents are going on and on about how she will be "testing" for her black belt in a couple of days. I just played along to humor her, but what I really wanted to do was set her and her parents straight. She was getting her belt after only studying for about 8 months, and not intensively either.

A lot of these schools are like puppy mills, they just churn 'em out, for the right amount of cash. It's more of an ego boost for the kid than anything else, but it seemed like her dad especially was into this whole "my daughter is getting her black belt" jag. What a joke.

[3dRanger]

Here is my input, just remember you get what you pay for. I studied Japanese Jujutsu for two years. I learned enough to have my ass handed to me if I tried to use anything other than having someone grab me or try to put a choke hold on me. Then I "may" have been able to hurt you. After that I took Kempo Karate for five years. I loved it. I was in great shape. I had just left the Rangers. I lifted, ran, and took Kempo almost everyday sometimes twice. I felt very confident in my skills and owning a Redneck bar I had to use them quite often. Sometimes they were drunk, but many times they were not. The point I am trying to make is that any style will have some people that can fight and it will also have others that cannot. We had people in Kempo with upper ranks that had great technique and speed, but no power and did not have the killer instinct. In a real fight with someone with skills, many of them would have had their ass kicked. On the other end, we had lower ranks that if you didn't watch them they would ring your bell and I would have trusted them to have my back. Point is every style has something to offer, but don't let it fool you into thinking you are invincible. I don't care who you are there is always somebody around the corner that can take you out if you give them the opportunity.

[Snake]

The point I am trying to make is that any style will have some people that can fight and it will also have others that cannot.

Point is every style has something to offer, but don't let it fool you into thinking you are invincible.


Exactly. Its the person, not the style.

Some -organizations-, which are built to promulgate the style, however, manage to muddy the waters by presenting the style in a substandard manner. Which is what happened to Shotokan Karate. They started having tournaments, and all of a sudden -everything- was reoriented towards that goal. TKD, same. Judo got in the Olympics, ditto (largely). Victims of their own success.
However, due to their own personal drive, some folks come out of these organizations with massive skill and power. These are the 2-3%.

[socket]

University of West Florida BJJ club. Pensacola, FL.

Thunderzone Martial Arts. Honolulu, HI.

Daimyo Martial Arts. Tampa, FL.

Define MMA for me, as opposed to Jujutsu (Brazilian or Japanese)?

Also, I put a caveat in my statement. "Many". Not all, not most.

Anytime you figure, "Well, if I take Muay Thai on Mondays and Thursdays, and BJJ on Saturdays..." and think you have anything resembling a coherent fighting strategy.......your kidding yourself.

Note: I have a narrower view of "MMA", a term which I do not like, as it isnt precise enough. BJJ, Shootfighting, Pancration, JKD, etc, would not fall into the MMA bracket, as they were not -mixes- at all, but coherent systems built from the ground up.


You said BJJ isn't MMA (I agree) but you list a university BJJ club as an MMA gym. I don't think so. The others I've never heard of. Offering classes in both BJJ and MMA on seperate days does not an MMA gym make. By your own admission, those gyms you've visited that teach only both MT and BJJ aren't even MMA gyms.

How is Pankration not MMA? Traditionally, it's a mixture of boxing and submission wrestling.

MMA, to me, is a mix of techniques meshed together that enables the practitioner to fight in a variety of different situations (on the feet, in the clinch, on his back, on top of his opponent). Techniques are usually drawn from wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, boxing, muay thai and kyokushin karate.

Exactly. Its the person, not the style.

I agree for the most part, but certain personalities are attracted to certain styles (walk into a TKD school and see what kind of people train there, then walk into a boxing gym in the ghetto and see what the differences are).

[Snake]

You said BJJ isn't MMA (I agree) but you list a university BJJ club as an MMA gym. I don't think so. The others I've never heard of. Offering classes in both BJJ and MMA on seperate days does not an MMA gym make. By your own admission, those gyms you've visited that teach only both MT and BJJ aren't even MMA gyms.

Snake: Those are the -gyms/Dojos- that I have actually attended (not trained at). I have worked out with several MMA practitioners, mainly in Hawai'i, and have a basic level of skill in BJJ. You asked what my qualifications for making that statement were.
When bunches of folks tell me something similiar to "I am a MMA-er, and practice a mix of Muay Thai and BJJ(or wrestling/submission system), primarily formulated by taking the two seperately", I don't need to be a genius to figure out what they are doing. What, their lying?

How is Pankration not MMA? Traditionally, it's a mixture of boxing and submission wrestling.

Snake: Pancration, as in Mu Tau Pancration, via Jim Arvenitis. Which probably has the best claim to the title, as it was first (1970s). It's no more a "mixed" Martial Art than Isshin-ryu Karate is. Or Araki-ryu jujutsu. The strategy came first, then movement, then techniques. A coherent system, not a collection of techniques. Some people mix boxing and wrestling and call it Pancration, but it is still a -mix- of boxing and wrestling, with -two- combative strategies that must be reconciled.

MMA, to me, is a mix of techniques meshed together that enables the practitioner to fight in a variety of different situations (on the feet, in the clinch, on his back, on top of his opponent).

Snake: Then, by your definition, Judo is a mixed martial art. Strikes, throws, submission, chokes, top and bottom position strategies. What quite a few people seem to mean by MMA, is "Hey! They wear speedos instead of gis!!". I'm joking of course, but it is near to the truth.


I agree for the most part, but certain personalities are attracted to certain styles (walk into a TKD school and see what kind of people train there, then walk into a boxing gym in the ghetto and see what the differences are).

Snake: Agreed, and that is a tragedy. TKD and Karate are their own victims. They portrayed themselves as a safe "everyone wins" afterschool activity for the kids and soccer moms. They did that long enough that it took. Drove away quite a few good people, and kept others from giving them a second look.



..

[jojoB375]

Gun foo, Triger kata with 4 lb force!

[Snake]

Gun foo, Triger kata with 4 lb force!

Now thats just laziness, son.

[mac3982]

WOW, what a great discussion, i'm just gonna sit back, an keep reading :D

[Ranger002]

When I recieved my Shodan after 8 years of intensive Aikido and Weapons training Shoji Nishio Shihan only said one thing to me. "All a ""Blackbelt" means is that you are a good student. Practice hard." Shoji Nishio Shihan passed away on March 15 One of the last of the Post War Era Aikidoka (he began in 1950)

The understanding of Budo is a life long pursuit. Victory in combat is only one of those goals and although it's an important, there are other aspects of Budo which are equally important.

To Resolve Conflict with Honor.

To Live an Honorable Life.

To Act with Grace and Dignity.

To Know One's self (inner spirit).

I am in my 40's now and when I was younger Snake I was like you. I admire and respect your dedication and I hope that your zealous pursuit of Martial Excellance is an example for others to follow. You must pass on what you have learned. Great discussion guys.

William Hazen

[martialboxer]

Historically, weren't all martial arts "mixed martial arts?" It isn't as if people of different styles had no interaction with each other whatsoever during history. I've studied kenjutsu and although there are certain characteristics of certain styles such as Jigen Ryu and Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, I'm pretty sure that the two systems have had some sort of interaction between its practitioners.

Even within a system, you get various "styles" represented by the practitioner. Muhammed Ali didn't box like Ken Norton. The fundamentals were the same, but many boxers would "cross-train" with certain types of opponents before a bout. I'm young and inexperienced, but I do know that if I had a bout with someone who was lanky and liked to throw long jabs, I'd watch all his tapes, devise a set strategy, and train with people who followed my opponent's style.

[Gryfen-FL]

Historically, weren't all martial arts "mixed martial arts?" Makes sense. I guess the traditional guys would call it lineage. The style I first started in was definatly 'traditional' and built from Shito and Tetsukin.

[Ranger002]

Historically, weren't all martial arts "mixed martial arts?" It isn't as if people of different styles had no interaction with each other whatsoever during history. I've studied kenjutsu and although there are certain characteristics of certain styles such as Jigen Ryu and Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, I'm pretty sure that the two systems have had some sort of interaction between its practitioners.

Even within a system, you get various "styles" represented by the practitioner. Muhammed Ali didn't box like Ken Norton. The fundamentals were the same, but many boxers would "cross-train" with certain types of opponents before a bout. I'm young and inexperienced, but I do know that if I had a bout with someone who was lanky and liked to throw long jabs, I'd watch all his tapes, devise a set strategy, and train with people who followed my opponent's style.

Great Post.

William Hazen

[Dale Seago]

BTW, I feel it important to add:

I have been to the Bujinkan Hombu Dojo, in Chiba. Both Soke Hatsumi and his Shihan (senior instructors) are true badasses. Nagato-sensei, in particular, is a man I'd like on my side in a fight. Soke Hatsumi was a high level Judo competitor -before- he met Takamatsu and began training in Ninjutsu. Snappy dresser, too.


The quality problem emerges when folks get out of sight of the Honchos. Lots of folks got courtesy ranks and then went back home, portraying themselves as legit instructors. Even more did the bare minimum to achieve instructor status, then blazed a trail home to transmit their crappy skills. _I_ think that the original group was so excited about how they were recieved, outside of Japan*, that they let unscrupulous folks run wild.



*-telling the avergae Japanese that you are training in Ninjutsu, is comparable to letting it slip to a New Yorker that you are training to become Batman...

FNG here -- short-time lurker, first-time poster -- and Snake, I want to compliment you on your "sense of balance" in this post. I feel that both the compliments and criticisms you presented are valid. I'm also pleased to see that you like Nagato sensei, as he and Noguchi are the two (apart from Hatsumi) I spend the most time training with when I'm over there.

Not all "Booj" dojo are created equal, by any means, and all Hatsumi sensei really seems to care about is the people who come to train with him and the shihan; and unfortunately some people have agendas other than just trying to learn what's being taught and it becomes apparent when they get home.

A friend/student of mine (Army staff sergeant) just deployed to Astan the first of this year, and the people he's playing with are getting a somewhat different view of the Bujinkan. :p He sent an e-mail to my dojo list Monday, and I'll share it here:

HI everyone. I thought some of you would like to hear about my training over here so far. I have been training with one of the MP's that works in my Holding Facility. Really great guy, very humble. Built like a freaking tank! He was a professional MMA before joining the Army.

Tonight I was showing him Ganseki Nage and some variations. He loved
it. I started with the base form, which he was picking up surprisingly
fast. Then I started adding some strikes into it, like a rising
koppo ken coming up into the face just as the uke starts to go
over. This started a discussion about unbalancing the opponent.
I asked him how he was unbalanced. He gave me the pat answer
about his weight being off-center, up on his toes. Normal stuff.
I then asked him what the koppo ken did to him. He thought
about it and his face lit up. He smiled and said it kept him
mentally off-balance as well. We worked on how to set up Ganseki Nage, or something similar, from a tackle with the arms wide or held in close to the body. Since he was a wrestler also, I had him do a double-leg takedown with drop step(think of a big step going to your knee). I stepped off-line and set it up while going to a knee. He pointed out that he would continue to move around me since I had moved off line. We did it again. This time as he tried to move around to establish proper alignment with me, I simply blocked his knee that needed to move and threw him again with GN. We were both laughing and having an absolute blast playing with this. I pointed out that the attack wasn't important as long as I took the space that he needed to move or attack me.

We played with that idea for a while and then moved to some knife work. Needless to say, he loved it. I showed him how to use the knife to take the mental balance also. Placing it in front of the face to cause a startle reflex. Showing him the knife before placing the spine against the neck. I worked Ganseki Nage right back into the knife defenses.

I then showed him how to draw the weapon with his body. I pointed
out that it was the same as drawing his pistol. He is a big
dude. I had him crushing my wrist to hold my hand in place so I couldn't draw my knife. You should have seen the look on his face when not only did I draw it, but cut
right where his body armor would stop.

We played with this for a bit and then moved into ground work. I think, for once,
a grappler got it. I showed him how to draw a weapon while mounted
or with the opponent in your guard. I showed him all sorts of
Dale's sneaky shit while on the ground. I think it was the first
time I have ever heard a ground fighter say that what we were
doing was better for a real fight than what he was doing.

I plan on going into the gym when he and his buddies are rolling. I want to train with them a bit, just to have some fun and play with our stuff in their world. I figure we'll all have a blast and all learn something.

Anyhoo, I hope you are all doing well. Take care and be safe.

Nice news for me to hear, of course; but I'll concede that the caveat (emptor!) remains that people's mileage with Bujinkan training will vary -- hugely -- depending on who they train with.

[martialboxer]

I don't know what it is, but I find that most of the McDojo practitioners are the most closed-minded group of people I've ever met. Anything that isn't part of the instructor's cirriculum does not exist, is too brutal or unrefined, etc. A takedown or a simple jab at a TKD McDojang is a no-no. This isn't to say I haven't experienced this type of thinking with MMAists. Anything that isn't in the UFC or Pride is useless and impractical. Anything that isn't wrestling, BJJ, muay thai/boxing is a waste of time.

Then again, a lot of the MMA guys (usually the more experienced ones) are open to various techniques found in different styles. I admire their ability to learn whatever they can, wherever they can, regardless of style association, gym affiliation, or country of origin.

[Raider Rakkasans]

Totally agree martialboxer. You have to explore and take those techniques that become part of you and move on. One thing I am learning is that not all techniques are for everyone.

[chokeu2]

Anything that isn't in the UFC or Pride is useless and impractical. Anything that isn't wrestling, BJJ, muay thai/boxing is a waste of time.

Then again, a lot of the MMA guys (usually the more experienced ones) are open to various techniques found in different styles. I admire their ability to learn whatever they can, wherever they can, regardless of style association, gym affiliation, or country of origin.

I'm glad that you included that last paragraph. However, in my experience, the overwhelming majority of guys that I've ever met that lean towards "MMA", are of an open minded sort. The reason that I, and again, the people that I know took this route is that it was "non-traditional" and open to anything. That is not to say that there is anything wrong with traditional teaching mind you. I got away from the traditional stuff because it seemed to restrictive and I didn't make a connect on how form equaled a win in a real fight. That what just me.

So I found thai. I got punched, kicked, elbowed. The light went on, not out. There was no restriction on how I learned, but do what it took to get it right and be in shape for the fight. My first thai instructor was Thai. Because of the physical conditioning he required, I learned that there was no limit to the journey. Enter Kali, a slight come back to forms, but only enough to learn how to move free form. Finally BJJ, and for ME, it was the icing on the cake. Again, no limits, no rules on how or what to learn. Just endless variations to tie together and learn. The fact that there were hundreds of variations on just arm bar still fascinates me.

Perhaps the moniker MMA, traditional, non-traditional can and will go away and replaced with something like "structured" or "unstructured"? I don't know. I just know that everyone needs to find their own way, and not a one of us is fit to tell the other how to get where they want to go.

I enjoy my track because I can and am as physical as my mind will allow me. I've learned that my body will keep going as long as they mind can hang. My martial training has gone way outside the mat, cage, street, whatever and has shown me how to push to excel in everything. But I have to admit, this realization didn't come home till about 1993. I had the game, and the physical down, but the mental extentions to other places didn't then.

Suffice it to say, perhaps the best technique is the one that you find on your own. Not in some style.

[Snake]

I believe that there are two(2) kinds of learning in the Martial Arts:

1) Foundations. Absolutely -must- be structured. Basics must be learned, and absorbed(two vastly different things), before you know anything.

Until you accomplish #1, which is probably going to take the better part of a decade (should have spent the time going to Med School...), you simply cannot make technical decisions about your skills. I.e. this works/does not work, I'd like to ignore the midrange and just transition thru it really fast, etc...

and

2) Technicals. Once you have -mastered- the foundations of a single system, you build off of it. Pirate a technique from Aikido, learn it, absorb it, fit it into your strategy. As you already have a -coherent- fighting strategy, it isnt dominated by the new "alien" techniques, so you do not have to flip between differring overall strategies on the fly.

A classic example of #2 is, of course, Bruce Lee. From a fair-to-middling (i.e. years of training) background in Wing Chun, he developed (from the Wing Chun) a personal, stripped down, style(Jun Fan). He then trained himself to technical mastery over everything he -already- knew. From that, he found he could integrate techniques from Jujutsu, Savate, Karate, Muay Thai, etc, into his arsenal, without them dictating his overall strategy.

The important difference between such people, and so-called Mixed Martial Artists, is that there is no "mixing" at all. Bruce would use shin kicks and elbows, but he didnt fight like a Muay Thai boxer, because the techniques were no longer "Muay Thai", they were JKD/Jun Fan, having been meshed into his strategy.
When you fight as a Thai Boxer when you are upright, but a BJJ/Wrestler when you are on the floor, you keep having to switch between two very different mindsets. This is one of the reasons the Gracies keep winning, with pure BJJ, even over people who have mixed Boxing/Thai Boxing techniques with their BJJ or Wrestling. Not because groundfighting is king, it's not. It's because the Gracies have a strategy, proceeding -from- their system/style, that is coherent and continuous, from the moment the fight begins to the end.
I hate to reference it, but look at the UFC. In 1-5, the purists -completely- dominated. Royce, Shamrock, and Servern, all technical wizards in a single art (GBJJ, Shootfighting, and Wrestling, respectively), brutalized the competition. By #5, they were mostly facing guys with "Mixed" as their background. Hell, #3 was won by Steve Jennum (some form of Ninjutsu. Bujinkan?).

No single Art has all the answers, but mastering a single Art is better than spreading your attention thinly. Once you are a badass TaeBo master, then you can start learning Dim Mak. Until then, grasshopper, work on transitioning between Long Range, and the Inside.

[chokeu2]

I'm not sure if that was said in my direction or not. However, if it is I'll have to say that you may have a basic misunderstanding of those who go outside the traditional mindset such as myself. Learning the basics is a given, period. The limits to learning anything about a particular art is in the individual. As somone who was doing "MMA" when it was early on, I can say that the guys who you call "purists" were not winning because they were singularly focused on their "style". They won because they were doing something that people were not used to seeing done.

Back to the comment on learning the basics. Those who take our non-traditional, mma, hybrid, whatever you choose to call it, training seriously completely understand what it means to KNOW the basics, not just learn them. We pound away on the basics until they become instinctual and easily adapted as necessary depending on the situation. Being able to manipulate the basics is completely foundational to success in the way that we train.

Frankly, I'm not even sure what to call the way I train in this discussion because it seems that there is still a bit of a condescending attitude to those of us who've stepped outside the norms. Almost as though we need to be lectured on how to learn, how to train, and how to structure our learning. So it seems as though no matter what is said, there will be someone to come along and find the "limit" in it.

We do not see ourselves as fighting as "anything" (insert thai boxer, wrestler, BJJ guy). We just fight using what works in that given moment. And for those of us who do take this as serious as you do Snake, we get it. We get what it takes to do things right. There is no granularity of a single system mindset required to be succesful. One just must have the skills to do what the fight calls for. That normally involves assessing your opponent and going for his weaknesses.

I've had this discussion to no avail face to face at a predominantly traditional, regional organization in which my group was the only non-traditional group in attendance and in membership. That group being the PCMA (Professional Combined Martial Arts Assoc). They refused to believe that we could train and teach enough of anything for our students and fighters to KNOW what to do instinctively. We even had a group there that was supposedly teaching "counter grappling". The only way to show how effective proper "mma" training was, was to engage in some friendly mat time.

So please understand that training to grapple well and training to strike well is NOT spreading attention too thin by a long shot. You have to understand the ranges and what to do in all of them to fight well. Another mention of the basics in what we do.... A fighter is considered to be learning the basics all the way until he earns his black belt, which on average for us take 6-8 years. First promotions generally come between 1 and 2 years. We understand the basics brother. And we understand the strength in the basics and how they rate to the "basics" of other systems. Don't take that to mean that we focus on rank, we do not, but it is a gauge for the purpose of this discussion.

[martialboxer]

I do get the point of trying to learn so many things at once. I believe it was Bruce Lee who came up with the tree metaphor on how you need a trunk and roots before you get branches and flowers. I can see how learning to kickbox where different strategies and rules comply and then immediately switching over to the "takedown" mode. Some people are natural geniuses and put it together easily but they're exceptionally rare. When you move up the ranks though, even though they list fighter profiles as BJJ/boxing or BJJ/muay thai or wrestling/judo or wrestling/muay thai or whatever, it isn't that they train the two arts seperately. It wouldn't be productive to practice kickboxing and not have to worry about a shot and then a few hours later, practice submission wrestling without worrying about getting struck. I'm fortunate enough to live near Gresham, OR (Team Quest) and yes, they do have pure kickboxing and pure submission wrestling classes but when they teach, they keep everything in context. It's not two systems meshed together, it's as if something from the ground up. It's only two different systems in name.

Almost every single professional Pride or UFC fighter has a strong foundation. Randy Coutoure and Matt Lindland have wrestling backgrounds. Tito Ortiz has a strong wrestling background. Chuck Liddell has a karate background and a strong wrestling background. Noguiera has a very strong BJJ background. Sakuraba has a stronb submission wrestling background. The top MMA contenders didn't start out by learning all these differing styles at once.

I don't know about Bob Sapp but I think he tried learning all these styles at once and it really doesn't work for him. I could tell in some of his fights that there seems to be a pause in-between moves, especially against Noguiera. In his first fights, everything was natural and instinctive (although not very technical). I'm saying that he would've been dominated either way by a quicker, slicker, more technical Noguiera but Sapp just seemed slower and a bit more methodical, common to everyone starting in martial arts. It might just be me. It might just be that Bob Sapp was intimidated after being hit in the face a couple of times.

[chokeu2]

MB, Please do not lecture me on training methodologies. I have been doing this for 23 years, quite successfully. I am well aware of the training techniques of the guys in Pride and the UFC. Our fighters have been there, as they have in Pancrase by virtue of the only 6x King of Pancrase as a current example. This discussion should not be about how a more linear arguably more "traditional" type of training is "better", "smarter", more in the "martial way", than the way we train across genre's. To us, its all Vale Tudo.

It seems to me that the issue that is becoming clear is that there are many who have a fantastic grasp of the way they train, in your more or less "traditional" fashion. But you do not have a grasp on how those of us who've stepped out of the bounds of tradition train. We do not train as hobbyists, we train as atheletes, as the very people that Snake so eloquently spoke about in his very thoughful, well worded post.

The very first thing we do is train people to develop strong, rooted foundations. You do not understand that very strong foundations are laid when people train the way that we do if committed to the training. So your analogy from Bruce Less is very appropro, and it applies to as very nicely as we do train foundationally strong, much more so that you comprehend.

We do not look at stand up, or ground training as opposing styles. We see these things as a part of what we need to do. The training paradigm is much different than you apparently comprehend as shown through your own words. Thing is, things like what you've said are not new to me in the least. Whenever we meet with the organizations that are traditionally based, such discussions arise. It is no big deal until it gets to the point of someone deciding to tell us that we are wrong for the way that we train, and that would could not possibly be effective as martial artists or fighters. It is you who sees the various training "styles" within what we do as you make note. As I said, it is just part of what we do.

It does not take someone who is "exceptionally rare" to be good at both standing and ground fighting. The fact that you'd say such a thing shows that you've not trained long in my type of environment. It does not take a genius to do both well, and to tie it all together. It takes repitition, and lots of it. Which is precisely what our type of students get. Sometimes we will focus on only a couple specific techniques over a couple week span. Variations come naturally through trying to pull the move under extreme duress via an unwilling training partner, not through genius thought.

You cannot have a guy come in and be able to give you a hundred different variations on an armbar without being foundationally strong. Chokes, locks, etc. Just to get the first promotion a fighter is responsible for several hundred techniques, all built upon the foundation of the basic movements. And the way that we train, it comes naturally, then tied to instinct as the student is thrown to the wolves to fight full speed, no pulled punches(open hand to the face), no luke warm take downs, over and over again. Five, six minutes rounds as a minimum, full speed, with a minute break in between; just long enough to change partners. No, the foundation is well poured into our guys.

On a lighter note, it is interesting that you bring up Nogi. He was coached by the very man that is my daughters godfather, and my coach. So I'm well aware of how he's trained. Do you think that we just choose to swing a few armbars tonight, then try something different the next? Maybe some thai boxing for kicks? The warmups just to get through to the technique portion of the night is an atheletic endeavor that most people do not last in. We lose most of the people that come to train with us because they didn't expect it would be so intense and foundationally strong. We drill the basics into our fighters heads to the point of absurdity. The entire way we do things is rooted in being foundationally strong. Above all, positioning is the most important tactical advantage we strive for in a fight. A fighter gets the best positioning through conditioning and being able to whether anything that goes on.

Oh, as to Nogi, all he does is the basics. Umo, traingle, kimura, ankle, then he mixes it up. Also, it is not so much as though he is methodical, it is just that the situation is that well in hand, because the foundation is strong. Standing or on the ground. Now as to bringing up Bob Sapp, gimme a break. He is a side show and not someone that is serious about training. So don't bother with the comparisons to the rest of the MMA community. He doesn't fit in, and unless he really shows himself to be dedicated to training, he never will.

I do not want this pleasant discussion to turn into a traditional v. non-traditional chest thumping match. So why don't we avoid passing judgement on what you think you may know about this subject. Perhaps the statements would be better served as questions, so that this could be a dialogue, not a monologue.

[Husker19D30]

Just wanted to thank all you guys. I'm not a martial arts practitioner, but the subject has lately become interesting to me. At the age of 36 I doubt I would ever be able to step in and be competitive in a MMA forum. But thanks to your discussion I'm going to go seek out some training, and see if I can learn a thing or two. The thing is, I don't even have a solid idea of why I want to do this, other than it interests me, and seems like it'd be fun.

I've gone through and through this forum, I think I can spot a McDojo at this point. I'm in fair shape (could be better, and I've made a committment to serious physical fitness that I'm working on now), but I could use some advice just the same. The problem is, even after reading I'm not sure how to phrase my ignorance. What's my goal? To punch around , learn some combative skills, and have a good time doing it. So... Where to go? What to seek out? Jiu Jitsu at the Y? Hapkido at the dojo up the street? Shoot fighting at the muscle head gym across town? So many variables, so much effort and dollars potentially wasted.

A little help for a well intentioned neophyte gentlemen, if you don't mind.


Murph

[Snake]

We do not train as hobbyists, we train as atheletes,


...And this is where you, I, and about 2% of Martial Artists differ, from the other 98% of people who take 2-3hrs of TKD(Karate, Judo, Wu Xia, etc) . Its really the only way you -can- train. Anything less, you're just someone with a weird hobby.

As some of you guys may know, in the Classical World, personal combat was viewed as the practical application of the normal athletic pursuits. "Train as you fight"? IIRC, there was an event in one of the counterparts(Nemean?) to the Olympic Games, which consisted of an endurance race, in full hoplite gear, cross country.

[Snake]

So... Where to go? What to seek out? Jiu Jitsu at the Y? Hapkido at the dojo up the street? Shoot fighting at the muscle head gym across town? So many variables, so much effort and dollars potentially wasted.

A little help for a well intentioned neophyte gentlemen, if you don't mind.


Murph


Murph,
scout around town, see what's on offer. Especially look at University clubs (often fairly serious-minded environments. No kids/old folks). Let us know what your selection is like, then we can advise you.


Edited because my Google-fu wasnt up to it...

[martialboxer]

MB, Please do not lecture me on training methodologies. I have been doing this for 23 years, quite successfully. I am well aware of the training techniques of the guys in Pride and the UFC. Our fighters have been there, as they have in Pancrase by virtue of the only 6x King of Pancrase as a current example. This discussion should not be about how a more linear arguably more "traditional" type of training is "better", "smarter", more in the "martial way", than the way we train across genre's. To us, its all Vale Tudo.

It seems to me that the issue that is becoming clear is that there are many who have a fantastic grasp of the way they train, in your more or less "traditional" fashion. But you do not have a grasp on how those of us who've stepped out of the bounds of tradition train. We do not train as hobbyists, we train as atheletes, as the very people that Snake so eloquently spoke about in his very thoughful, well worded post.

The very first thing we do is train people to develop strong, rooted foundations. You do not understand that very strong foundations are laid when people train the way that we do if committed to the training. So your analogy from Bruce Less is very appropro, and it applies to as very nicely as we do train foundationally strong, much more so that you comprehend.

We do not look at stand up, or ground training as opposing styles. We see these things as a part of what we need to do. The training paradigm is much different than you apparently comprehend as shown through your own words. Thing is, things like what you've said are not new to me in the least. Whenever we meet with the organizations that are traditionally based, such discussions arise. It is no big deal until it gets to the point of someone deciding to tell us that we are wrong for the way that we train, and that would could not possibly be effective as martial artists or fighters. It is you who sees the various training "styles" within what we do as you make note. As I said, it is just part of what we do.

It does not take someone who is "exceptionally rare" to be good at both standing and ground fighting. The fact that you'd say such a thing shows that you've not trained long in my type of environment. It does not take a genius to do both well, and to tie it all together. It takes repitition, and lots of it. Which is precisely what our type of students get. Sometimes we will focus on only a couple specific techniques over a couple week span. Variations come naturally through trying to pull the move under extreme duress via an unwilling training partner, not through genius thought.

You cannot have a guy come in and be able to give you a hundred different variations on an armbar without being foundationally strong. Chokes, locks, etc. Just to get the first promotion a fighter is responsible for several hundred techniques, all built upon the foundation of the basic movements. And the way that we train, it comes naturally, then tied to instinct as the student is thrown to the wolves to fight full speed, no pulled punches(open hand to the face), no luke warm take downs, over and over again. Five, six minutes rounds as a minimum, full speed, with a minute break in between; just long enough to change partners. No, the foundation is well poured into our guys.

On a lighter note, it is interesting that you bring up Nogi. He was coached by the very man that is my daughters godfather, and my coach. So I'm well aware of how he's trained. Do you think that we just choose to swing a few armbars tonight, then try something different the next? Maybe some thai boxing for kicks? The warmups just to get through to the technique portion of the night is an atheletic endeavor that most people do not last in. We lose most of the people that come to train with us because they didn't expect it would be so intense and foundationally strong. We drill the basics into our fighters heads to the point of absurdity. The entire way we do things is rooted in being foundationally strong. Above all, positioning is the most important tactical advantage we strive for in a fight. A fighter gets the best positioning through conditioning and being able to whether anything that goes on.

Oh, as to Nogi, all he does is the basics. Umo, traingle, kimura, ankle, then he mixes it up. Also, it is not so much as though he is methodical, it is just that the situation is that well in hand, because the foundation is strong. Standing or on the ground. Now as to bringing up Bob Sapp, gimme a break. He is a side show and not someone that is serious about training. So don't bother with the comparisons to the rest of the MMA community. He doesn't fit in, and unless he really shows himself to be dedicated to training, he never will.

I do not want this pleasant discussion to turn into a traditional v. non-traditional chest thumping match. So why don't we avoid passing judgement on what you think you may know about this subject. Perhaps the statements would be better served as questions, so that this could be a dialogue, not a monologue.
Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to lecture anyone, especially somebody who's been doing this longer than I've been alive.

I haven't said that it's extremely rare to have someone who's well-rounded in both stand-up and groundfighting. I wasn't clear enough and it's my fault. What I was trying to say was that it's very difficult for somebody to work in a duo-style environment vs. a MMA environment.

Now I misused the word genius. However, I do believe that it takes a lot of natural ability to get in the top 1% (which is true for almost all competitive sports) as well as insane training.

I've never intended for it to be a TMA vs. MMA thread. Being judgemental or condescending was NEVER my intention.

[Snake]

Mixed Martial Arts? Ha!


Your skills are nothing compared to the Dorm Ninja....


http://www.compfused.com/directlink/705/

[Daredevil]

So please understand that training to grapple well and training to strike well is NOT spreading attention too thin by a long shot. You have to understand the ranges and what to do in all of them to fight well. Another mention of the basics in what we do.... A fighter is considered to be learning the basics all the way until he earns his black belt, which on average for us take 6-8 years. First promotions generally come between 1 and 2 years. We understand the basics brother. And we understand the strength in the basics and how they rate to the "basics" of other systems. Don't take that to mean that we focus on rank, we do not, but it is a gauge for the purpose of this discussion.
Well said.

[Daredevil]

Not all "Booj" dojo are created equal, by any means, and all Hatsumi sensei really seems to care about is the people who come to train with him and the shihan; and unfortunately some people have agendas other than just trying to learn what's being taught and it becomes apparent when they get home.

There is a Bujinkan Ninjutsu school in Texas that has competitors that fight in MMA competitions. They actually have a decent record overall. I don't know how good their connection with Hatsumi is or any of that other stuff, and I don't know the secret handshake to figure if they're full of shit or not.

I also know of a Ninjutsu school in California that has a BJJ program. Kind of surprised me actually, as my most of my exposure to people who claim to train in the Bujinkan has lead me to believe they aren't real open minded about training in systems outside of the 9 disciplines.

[Dale Seago]

There is a Bujinkan Ninjutsu school in Texas that has competitors that fight in MMA competitions. They actually have a decent record overall. I don't know how good their connection with Hatsumi is or any of that other stuff, and I don't know the secret handshake to figure if they're full of shit or not.

I also know of a Ninjutsu school in California that has a BJJ program. Kind of surprised me actually, as my most of my exposure to people who claim to train in the Bujinkan has lead me to believe they aren't real open minded about training in systems outside of the 9 disciplines.

I'm guessing the Texas school is my friend Luke Molitor's dojo in the Dallas area (www.jigokudojo.com), and that the CA dojo is David Dow's. Interestingly, both instructors train a lot with Toshiro Nagato in Japan, whom I consider a friend as well as one of my own teachers. One of the Booj instructors at the place where I teach, a sort of "Bujinkan cooperative" we've set up in San Francisco (www.sfbuyu.com), also trains occasionally in BJJ and various other things.

I don't "supplement" my own Bujinkan training (21 years' worth) with other arts (I did 14 years of other stuff before this), but I go to seminars occasionally to play with/explore things I find interesting. I've known Don Angier, Soke of Yanagi ryu Aikijujutsu, (http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_angier_0501.htm) for about 17 years, and I have found that the different approach to using many of the same principles we use helps to illuminate the principles themselves. Ditto with Russian Systema, which seems to me much like a fusion of elements of two of the Bujinkan's 9 ryuha: Shinden Fudo ryu (no formal kamae, emphasis on "natural" movement, etc.) and Gyokko ryu (circular movement and whiplike or "wavelike" motion).

A number of my students still train regularly with Angier sensei whenever he gets up here from SoCal, and several of my students (one of them a police officer and a senior-level Booj instructor himself) also train in Systema.

So I'd say we're pretty open-minded out here, at least. . .mileage will vary in other areas. :p

(EDIT: Just for grins, here are a couple of pics of Nagato sensei from a public embu or demonstration held 09 NOV 04 in Noda: http://www.blosphere.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=148&pos=20
http://www.blosphere.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=148&pos=28

The "telephone pole" in the second photo is a feudal-era battlefield weapon called a nyoibo)

[tony762]

2) Technicals. Once you have -mastered- the foundations of a single system, you build off of it. Pirate a technique from Aikido, learn it, absorb it, fit it into your strategy. As you already have a -coherent- fighting strategy, it isnt dominated by the new "alien" techniques, so you do not have to flip between differring overall strategies on the fly.

A classic example of #2 is, of course, Bruce Lee. From a fair-to-middling (i.e. years of training) background in Wing Chun, he developed (from the Wing Chun) a personal, stripped down, style(Jun Fan). He then trained himself to technical mastery over everything he -already- knew. From that, he found he could integrate techniques from Jujutsu, Savate, Karate, Muay Thai, etc, into his arsenal, without them dictating his overall strategy.



My sources tell me Bruce Lee did not "master" anything in Wing Chun.
he was not fully trained in this style, therefore his foundation was weak, he knew this.
his techniques were not fully learned let alone perfected, and so all his 'improving' on Wing Chun was a bit laughable.

[martialboxer]

I'm guessing the Texas school is my friend Luke Molitor's dojo in the Dallas area (www.jigokudojo.com), and that the CA dojo is David Dow's. Interestingly, both instructors train a lot with Toshiro Nagato in Japan, whom I consider a friend as well as one of my own teachers. One of the Booj instructors at the place where I teach, a sort of "Bujinkan cooperative" we've set up in San Francisco (www.sfbuyu.com), also trains occasionally in BJJ and various other things.

I don't "supplement" my own Bujinkan training (21 years' worth) with other arts (I did 14 years of other stuff before this), but I go to seminars occasionally to play with/explore things I find interesting. I've known Don Angier, Soke of Yanagi ryu Aikijujutsu, (http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_angier_0501.htm) for about 17 years, and I have found that the different approach to using many of the same principles we use helps to illuminate the principles themselves. Ditto with Russian Systema, which seems to me much like a fusion of elements of two of the Bujinkan's 9 ryuha: Shinden Fudo ryu (no formal kamae, emphasis on "natural" movement, etc.) and Gyokko ryu (circular movement and whiplike or "wavelike" motion).

A number of my students still train regularly with Angier sensei whenever he gets up here from SoCal, and several of my students (one of them a police officer and a senior-level Booj instructor himself) also train in Systema.

So I'd say we're pretty open-minded out here, at least. . .mileage will vary in other areas. :p

(EDIT: Just for grins, here are a couple of pics of Nagato sensei from a public embu or demonstration held 09 NOV 04 in Noda: http://www.blosphere.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=148&pos=20
http://www.blosphere.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=148&pos=28

The "telephone pole" in the second photo is a feudal-era battlefield weapon called a nyoibo)
From the website:
Yanagi-ryu is such a complicated and exacting art that it can only be taught in very small groups, usually no larger than six or eight at a time. Basic requirements to enter our dojo include, but are not limited to:

Dedication.
Commitment.
An even, non-disruptive disposition.
A sense of humor. (People who take themselves too seriously are never accepted.)
The ability to blend and work with the other students, and never to be satisfied with one’s progress.
An intolerance for mediocrity.
Students are also encouraged not to mention that they study Yanagi-ryu or with me, and to never give out the address of the dojo.
I Googled Yanagi-ryu Aiki Jujutsu and found...

http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia.php?entryID=767

The present headmaster is Don ANGIER, Yoshida's leading student, who presently instructs in southern California. Yanagi-ryu Aikijujutsu, 1436 E. 53rd St. , Long Beach, CA 90805 USA (213)423-3917.

Is the address old?

I do understand that some instructors do not want to be bothered and don't want students who aren't fully committed, but I don't understand the part where it says to not having Don Angier as your instructor. I could understand how people throw out names for their own gain but I don't see the logic in never mentioning your instructor. To know whether someone is credible, you usually look at their rank and lineage (what rank you hold and who you received it from) and their fight record if applicable. Is there any benefit in witholding [b]all[b] information about your school, instructor, and system?

[Snake]

My sources tell me Bruce Lee did not "master" anything in Wing Chun.
he was not fully trained in this style, therefore his foundation was weak, he knew this.
his techniques were not fully learned let alone perfected, and so all his 'improving' on Wing Chun was a bit laughable.


That is not what I said.

I said that he had a "fair-to-middling" background in Wing Chun. He trained with Yip Man, or more likely YM's senior students, for several years. Later, he took what parts of Wing Chun he had been taught, stripped out stuff that did not work FOR HIM, and created Jun Fan. He stayed withing his technical range, and mastered everything that he had learned. After that, he could learn a new technique, mesh it with the overarching principles of his strategy, and place it in his arsenal.

[tony762]

That is not what I said.

I said that he had a "fair-to-middling" background in Wing Chun. He trained with Yip Man, or more likely YM's senior students, for several years. Later, he took what parts of Wing Chun he had been taught, stripped out stuff that did not work FOR HIM, and created Jun Fan. He stayed withing his technical range, and mastered everything that he had learned. After that, he could learn a new technique, mesh it with the overarching principles of his strategy, and place it in his arsenal.


i wasnt trying to say you were wrong, sorry if it came across that way.
was just trying to clarify his background.

[Daredevil]

Jun Fan at it's earliest and most basic form was Wing Chun hands paired with boxing footwork. That's still the base of it today. Bruce never cared about being labeled a master of Wing Chun.

One of Bruce's biggest strengths wasn't just his openmindedness, it was his more westernized approach to training and realizing the importance of physical conditioning.

[chokeu2]

One of Bruce's biggest strengths wasn't just his openmindedness, it was his more westernized approach to training and realizing the importance of physical conditioning.


Gospel

[Hoepoe]

Curious:

What ever happened to Bruce Lee's school for Jeet Koon Do?

Not talking about splinter, or copycat schools, but THE school.

Do any of Bruce Lee's students teach today?

Hoepoe

[Daredevil]

Curious:

What ever happened to Bruce Lee's school for Jeet Koon Do?

Not talking about splinter, or copycat schools, but THE school.

Do any of Bruce Lee's students teach today?

Hoepoe
The original school kind of went away after Bruce died.

Dan Inosanto was his longest student and very close friend. If you look at a lot of Bruce Lee's instructional books, you'll see Dan as his demo guy in most of the pictures. In fact, Dan taught most of the classes at Bruce's school while Bruce was pursuing his movie career. Dan still teaches, and still learns and trains in new things at his school in L.A.

http://www.inosanto.com

My own teacher is a full Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do Concepts instructor under him, as well as Filipino Martial Arts instructor under him.

They teach everything there, Ajarn Chai is the Muay Thai coach, Erik Paulson teaches CSW there, the Machados have a BJJ program there. Guro Dan really takes the JKD concept to heart at his academy. Really nice guy, and very humble. My brother went to Ajarn Chai's Thai Camp last year and Guro Dan was there living and training like he was just another student.

[Hoepoe]

Thanks DD

Interesting info.

Hoepoe

[Atekomi]

I'm guessing the Texas school is my friend Luke Molitor's dojo in the Dallas area (www.jigokudojo.com),

Dale,

He could also be thinking about Ralph's school. Even though he is no longer in the Bujinkan, I think he still mentions he is a student of Hatsumi Sensei.

BTW, welcome to SOCNET.

[tony762]

Bruce never cared about being labeled a master of Wing Chun.

you cannot be considered a master in anything unless you complete the training, he did not, therefore the point is moot.

[Dale Seago]

Dale,

He could also be thinking about Ralph's school.

Ack, barf, gag.

Even though he is no longer in the Bujinkan, I think he still mentions he is a student of Hatsumi Sensei.

BTW, welcome to SOCNET.

He can say that all he wants; Hatsumi sensei doesn't feel that he is.

Good to see you here, George!!

[Beerbelly]

wild, thrashing thumb in the eye, while opposite hand pulls in the back of head, to make sure no one squirms away. i've never tried it, but seems like one of those things you just know will work.

[67 Fastback]

I like throwing elbows too...

I find them to be rather efficient.

[tony762]

guy i knew once threw a straight high kick at an opponants face, the guy caught his foot held it there and danced with him for a short time before smashing his nose with a beautiful haymaker, it was classic :D
needles to say he never tried to kick anyone in the face again :D

[chokeu2]

wild, thrashing thumb in the eye, while opposite hand pulls in the back of head, to make sure no one squirms away. i've never tried it, but seems like one of those things you just know will work.

I love when guys have tried this in the past. Doesn't work well at all, just makes it fun for someone like me.

[martialboxer]

guy i knew once threw a straight high kick at an opponants face, the guy caught his foot held it there and danced with him for a short time before smashing his nose with a beautiful haymaker, it was classic :D
needles to say he never tried to kick anyone in the face again :D
Yeah, high kicks are somewhat risky. However, I like to throw head kicks anyway as it's my most powerful weapon and has the highest success of a KO. CroCop favors them as well, and IMO, nothing looks as cool as when somebody knocks a guy out with a beautiful kick to the head in Pride, the UFC, K-1, etc. If somebody sets it up and is quick enough and executes it with good timing, they can be dangerous. Again, not the most practical move but you look good doing it. :o

[Snake]

Two things to ask yourself before you attempt to kick AT ALL:

1) Am I fast enough? If you can't zoom it into the target area before your opponent can intercept, then do not kick.

2) How's my technique? There are correct ways to kick, and incorrect ways to kick. A matter of biomechanics and transmission of force. If you lose 70% of your force because you don't have your leg or hip aligned, why bother?

[CREWSAFE]

Head kicks are the fastest way to lose a fight. Sure, they look "Bruce Leeish" when executed in Kumite (UFC are some hardchargers, but their is still a referee in the ring), but in a real mix up you will find yourself flat on your ass. I teach NEVER to throw a roundhouse kick above the waist line, preferrably at the knee or thigh. I use the front kick, either from a front or back stance, to aim either at the solar plexus (to double your opponent over), or at the sternum area (in order to push your opponent back), thus giving you some room to maneuver.

I also concentrate on a strong back kick, thrust kick, stomping kick, knee kick & front kick to the groin area. However, the majority of my instruction involves using the kick only after a block, counter punch/strike combination. I do this to allow for the proper stance to be obtained prior to delivering a kick. Still I have techniques which use the kick as the initial attack as an element of surprise.

My favorite technique: Which ever one works in a given situation.

[67 Fastback]

I'm not much into kicks. I like having my legs and feet underneath me. I have, in my experience, found that some kicks served a purpose for reaction or retaliation.

Had a friend in a sparring session move in and go for a backfist, purely on instinct I spun and put my heel right into his diaphragm.

I hadn't been soft. He got kicked back against a wall and had to take a minute to get his breathing right.

I just got clocked in the face.

The thing I remember about it, was that it was a split second action/reaction affair, neither of us were keeping up any guard. Sort of the equivalent of rushing blindly for a takedown, one guy gets knocked down, the other eats a fist, knee, or foot.

But here, I'm just a puke in training around a bunch of guys who have some serious skills and background...please poke holes in the situation, I'll learn.

[chokeu2]

Kids to the head are a bad idea in only the most rare of circumstances. I keep my training fairly simple and use rudimentary tools when it comes to striking. Those being my shins, knee's, elbows, fists, forearms; and the occassional head butt... :D All blunt force, gross body movement oriented. That being the case, I absolutely employ whatever tool necessary, and really enjoy that with guys that see no use in kicking (not directed at you Mr Fastback! :D) But it never ceases to amaze me how very few long time trained individuals have no clue how to defend against kicks to their thighs and knee's from someone like me with a thai background. I'll absolutely destroy a guys legs, then pick him apart either via striking or hit the ground. For anyone, no matter what style, it make the best of sense to condition your shins, and learn to use those at clubs. They are far more effective than spinning whizbangers.

I wanna ask a question about "spinning back fists"... I'm curious. Is this something that a lot of you come across a lot? In my world, we see it from time to time, and it ends up being seen as a novelty much like a spinning kick. Is it something that you guys have success with? Is it something that which you advocate common usage of? Whenever I've seen it on my mats the individual usually ended up face down on the mats about to be choked.
Enlighten me.

[fish78]

I am no martial artist, don't play one on TV, and and haven't stayed in a Holiday Inn Express lately, but a kick to the head when the BG is on the ground can be a decissive fight ender. Any other time its not a very good idea.

[martialboxer]

I see backfists at the local amateur and professional shows around here. They do connect but I rarely see anyone get KOed with it. It might be the gloves, I have no idea. Backfists and spinning kicks do provide a good show, but I doubt somebody would use it if a title was on the line (unless they were way better than the other guy and wanted to please the crowd).

I've rarely seen it in top professional shows though. It might work in the local shows maybe because not a lot of people have encountered it? In any case, I've never seen it thrown more than twice in a fight, maybe due to that factor.

What I've seen a lot of that isn't employed extensively in thai boxing in a lot of shows are side kicks, back kicks, and front kicks. I've seen them used as counters and it usually takes the opponent off guard.

[67 Fastback]

I've seen the backfist thrown a few times in the UFC, maybe once in Pride.

If I remember correctly, the guys that I've seen land them were usually smaller dudes, Caol Uno being one of them.

In terms of economics and conservation of movement...I don't see the point in the backfist.

In a normal, straight leading punch, the force comes from your weight being moved at the toes, swung with the twist of the waist, and transferred through your arm and fist.

In a spinning backfist, that weight moves but stays at center. The whole force and impact of the backfist is the weight of the arm being swung at a certain speed; factoring in resistance from pulling at the shoulder and the upper pectoral adjacent to the arm being swung.

You have also turned your back on an opponent and left yourself completely open.

I wouldn't do it...but like I've said, some know better than I do, and I *do* remember seeing them thrown in the UFC.

[Golden Tiger]

I saw a backfist used effectively during a particular barfight in the area. A guy tried to rush another, but the other turned and ran. Naturally the aggressor ran after him, but when he got close the runner turned and planted a nice backfist right between the rushers eyes. Easily one of the funniest things I've ever seen and rusher had no idea what had happened to him.

[tony762]

I saw a backfist used effectively during a particular barfight in the area. A guy tried to rush another, but the other turned and ran. Naturally the aggressor ran after him, but when he got close the runner turned and planted a nice backfist right between the rushers eyes. Easily one of the funniest things I've ever seen and rusher had no idea what had happened to him.


:D

[The Corporate Guy]

Backfists and spinning kicks do provide a good show, but I doubt somebody would use it if a title was on the line (unless they were way better than the other guy and wanted to please the crowd).

I've rarely seen it in top professional shows though. It might work in the local shows maybe because not a lot of people have encountered it? In any case, I've never seen it thrown more than twice in a fight, maybe due to that factor.

UFC bout was won with a spinning back kick last night.

[socket]

UFC bout was won with a spinning back kick last night.
And Shonie Carter KOed Matt Serra with a spinning backfist (although it connected at the forearm) at UFC 31 a few years ago. Josh Thomson also has some lethal spinning backfists.

Spinning backfists/kicks can be fun to watch in competition but they really aren't that practical for the street unless you're REALLY good at them, and have created the right openings.

[Daredevil]

And Shonie Carter KOed Matt Serra with a spinning backfist (although it connected at the forearm) at UFC 31 a few years ago. Josh Thomson also has some lethal spinning backfists.

Spinning backfists/kicks can be fun to watch in competition but they really aren't that practical for the street unless you're REALLY good at them, and have created the right openings.

I think Genki Sudo has done them as well.

I kind of think of them like flying triangles. Some guys can do them and some can't.

[CREWSAFE]

Here is a "Back Fist" technique for you...

Step-by-step.
1. Fake a jab with your LEFT hand, while sliding forward.
2. Turn to your RIGHT into a straddle stance, delivering a RIGHT back fist to the side of your opponent’s face.
3. Slide your LEFT foot backwards to straddle stance and deliver a LEFT outside elbow smash to your opponent’s face

Enjoy. :)

[Snake]

Thump.....


This would have been perfect, had he looked where he was kicking, and then extended through the target. As it is, 5.5 out of 10.

[martialboxer]

One of the coolest KOs I have ever seen was when a kyokushin practitioner shuffled back and threw a spinning back hook kick to the opponent's head. I'll try to find the gif, I think I've seen it on SOCNET.

[chokeu2]

Hmm...
Okay, well, ya'll have fun with them... :D
I can see it in a few circumstances, but nothing I'd count on.

[3dRanger]

Hmm...
Okay, well, ya'll have fun with them... :D
I can see it in a few circumstances, but nothing I'd count on.

Yea, maybe if your opponent is drunk and/or defenseless. :)

[chokeu2]

Yea, maybe if your opponent is drunk and/or defenseless. :)

LOL! You said it, not me! :D

[RagNar2/75]

To me, the spinning backfist is like the spinning back elbow in thai boxing. Everybody knows it, almost nobody tries it. Then again, there's a big incentive to land it in thailand.

[SF_Nevabe]

I've found more usefull information in this one thread, then I have, while training!

Currently working on the one inch punch.

System I am currently studying is Than Vo Dao

http://www.sevenmountainskungfu.com/

[Nightcrawler]

I am 5 foot 5 and 170 lbs, I also have trouble with the triangle on larger opp.. What i do is get my body at a angle to apply the triangle then straight to a armbar from that position. sometimes it works and sometimes not.Crawler