M40A3

[Matterhorn]

I know this has been asked before, but nobody seems to really know...

When and where will we start seeing M40A3 in the fleet?? Is there anything one can do to expedite their arrival? I was told they would be in the fleet by the end of summer, but that's at least not the case here.

Thanks

[Matterhorn]

This past May Quantico told me that they would be ready NLT October. I'm not holding them responsible for anything, I just can't wait to get those rifles!

Who did you speak with in Quantico? You can email me if you prefer to keep it private.

[mada61]

What are the advance's or advantages of the
M40A3 over the M40A2.

[Matterhorn]

The advantages of the M40A3 over the A1 are that it's more accurate, more ergonomic (shooter friendly), and has the option of a silencer.

[longrange1947]

And it weighs a ton.

Unless they have trimmed some serious pounds it will be a pain to carry in the bush.

More a perimeter defense weapon rather than a hump weapon.

------------------
Hold Hard Guys

Rick B

[Pawn]

Well I'm no expert, but looking at the verticle grip, almost "open thumbhole" stock, less angle on the forearm, that new hook at the butt for the left hand, I'd say the Marines are moving away from bag shooting toward bipod shooting. That's probably the biggest change, and is consistant with the new Marine MOUT emphasis.

The adjustable cheek rest probably means they are going to have more optics options. Like night vision for instance.

Correct me if I'm wrong.



[This message has been edited by Pawn (edited 09-19-2001).]

[EchoFiveMike]

Plus the M40A3's are going to be built on NEW receivers(so I'm told) and not recycled 1968-69 stuff. Yeah, the stuff was made right. Yes, it's taken care of(as best you can in the rain and shit) No, it doesn't last forever. They are going to a heavier barrel? Jesus. When I first got issued a M40A1 I wondered why the hell they got that sewer pipe barrel on there when a Palma or heavy varmint taper is fine IME. I got used to it, but...heavier? Oh well, we'll see it when we see it. Until we get our hands on them, we're all just pissing in the wind. S/F...Ken M

[Pawn]

'68! How long do these rifles last in service anyways? I would have thought maybe 10 years useful life even with smithing and rebuilds.

Do you get issued old rifles from previous owners? Do they have marks on them like "Joe was here", "Urgent Fury" carved on the stock? http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Pawn (edited 09-20-2001).]

[Matterhorn]

"Silencer" or "supressor," call it what you like. It's supposed to keep it quite. Obviously there is no such thing as a "silenced" gun.

Yes, it is heavier, but you don't have to put the "supressor" on it if you don't want to. As far as the adjustable cheeck piece, that was a thought introduced into the rifle so that snipers won't have to put their own homemade cheeck pieces on there. I can tell you though that that's not going to happen though. People will still put parts of isomats or whatever for personal customization. One of the reasons the M40A3 was funded was because a General was convinced to give money to the project because he was told that the M40A1s was "unsafe" because of their poor cheeck placement (basically a truth, but an excuse).

Yes, it also has built in bipods, although I wouldn't say there is a move away from rested shooting. Shooters won't be able to use the bipods in school. And the new flat bottom end of the stock is there to help stablize the rifle on your bench rest, gear, etc.

Matterhorn

[Sharky]

Originally posted by Matterhorn:
Yes, it also has built in bipods


Built-inbipods? Do you mean that it will come with a bipod such as a Harris or do you mean that the bipod is an integral component of the stock itself? Interesting.


------------------
F.I.D.O.

[White Devil]

Originally posted by Matterhorn:
[BObviously there is no such thing as a "silenced" gun.
[/B]

Actually there is such thing as a silenced rifle.

A rifle with just a suppressor is a suppressed weapon.

A rifle with a suppressor and sub sonic rounds is a silenced weapon.

[Gary]

Pic of A3 with bipods: http://www.marinescoutsniper.com/sniperrifles.jpg

Pic of A3 without bipod: http://www.marinescoutsniper.com/m40a3pic.jpg

[White Devil]

Touche

[tactical]

I have been shooting a M40A3 since May. Spent a week at Pendeleton with one and yes it is heavy but not so heavy as to be that big a deal. The weight comes mostly from heavier metal pieces in the trigger guard, scope base and scope rings, plus it is listed as a 24" bbl but they now meassure from the front of the receiver ring not the end of the chamber so its closer to 26" by normal standards.

The trigger guard and scope base are so tough you could drive a tank over them.

Rings and scope are up in the air, but I have been testing two scopes from US Optics that I think have a great chance of replacing the old M40A1 scopes. One is a fixed Ten power and the other is a 1.8x10 power. Both have round mildots and the same adjustment system as the M40A1 scopes. Both are 30mm main tubes and 44mm objectives.

I like both better than eith my M40A1 or MK4M3 scopes and that says alot.

On my way out to blast with the M40A3.

Mike

[tactical]

Guinness, never heard that. I spoke with Quantico about two monts ago and they were extremely pleased with groups and overall performance. I have shot the crap out of the one I have and it just pounds them in one hole all day.

[josepy]

Tact

Was your rifle built by a Marine 2112?

[tactical]

Josepy, first off glad to be talking shooting with you instead of other crap.

Long answer short is yes and no. I had a case of the getting it ready to take to Pendeleton, back in May so it was a combo project by GA Precision and Norcal Precision, all to specs. GA Precision has a 2112 that worked on the M40A3 project working there. How much he did I can not tell you. All parts except the scope base are issue and straight from the manufactures. Scope base used was a Badger built to USMC Specs, right down to the clip slot mounting. Truth be known scope bases of Badger and DD Ross Quality are the same anyway. That will piss both off.

I have tried the rifle bedded the new USMC way and the traditional way. I see no difference in the shooting.

I will eventually egt another rifle built by the 2112 with all issue parts but this was for an article and needed to be put together right away.

Great rifle I would never feel bad armed with one.
By the way this old cop got to test several new scope before the corp got them. Some nice stuff coming down to the troop for play time.

Mike

[tactical]

Vinnie any idea what the cause is? Scope, Bedding? How many rounds? I am just about to submit an article based on my shooting but will wait for what you have to say. Sounds like time to call Quantico again. Email me please.

[tactical]

Vinnie, you need to send me your email address unless there is another wya of getting it. No email is listed to you on the site. Would very much like to talk with who ever you are talking about. Wouldn't be CW Davis would it?

[greenfng]

Can someone learn me about the training a Marine 2112 gets? Why is a rifle built by them any better than a custom shop? I've seen some guys working on rifles at Camp Perry and such and they have always been young marines. I don't think someone that young would have developed the skills for a precision weapon.

[Gooch]

Sure wish Quantico had gone with an H-S Precision stock instead of the bedded McMillian boat paddle. When I trained Army and Marines side by side the M-24's were much more user friendly with the sniper being able to take the action out of the stock, clean it and re-torque it without having to worry about a courts martial afterward. Oh well, gotta employ all of them 2112's somehow.

USMC should go with the Leupold MkIV with the M3-LR elevation and windage turrets for the M40 and the SASR.

Actually (and I know this will piss off you Marines) the USMC should have just gone with the M24 with a stock modification. I've used and taught with both systems and the M24 is the way to go. Mostly due to the stock bedding. But Quantico knows best....(right..)

Out

[tactical]

Kent, I disagree on some of your points.

I have used both the MK4 M3 and the new US Optics fixed ten power with M40A1 BDC system. Since I have the original prototype I will assume you have not used thie US Optics scope. Optics, durability and adjustments are better on the US Optics and this comes from me who once said the MK4M3 was the best field sniper scope in the world. Well the new US Optics scope is better. M40A1 scope was better than the Redfield, MK4 M3 better than the M40A1 and the US Optics is better than all of them.

I like the M40A3 stock better than the M24 stock but I do not disagree with you on the advantages to being able to take stocks and change them in the field. Thats makes more sense and you probably only go from a 1/4 to 1/2 to1/2/to 3/4 moa rifle capability in doing so. Since 1moa would be fine anyway no harm no foul. I like that hooked area of the M40A3 stock better but wish the forend was not as bulky. Durability of the McMillan stock is without a doubt better than the HS.

Just my opinion not ment to start a flame guys. I have been shooting the M40A3 a bunch lately.

[Gooch]

Hey Mike what's up?

Like I said, I've worked (taught and trained with) with the M24 and the M40 series (haven't seen an A3 I'll admit) and I'll take the M24 any day.

Problem with the bedded Mac stocks is that as a grunt sniper in the field shit WILL get into the action. With an M24, you take it apart, clean it and retorque it. With an M40 you can take it apart and clean it if you want to but you run the chance of cracking/chipping the bedding which is really a fuck story if you are deployed. Also bedding tends to go tits up without warning. Aluminum bedding blocks are impervious to solvent, oil etc.

While offical HQMC policy is that a sniper can't take an M40 apart, we used to teach how to do it anyway. 8541 just has to buy his own torque wrench. But like I said, screw up the bedding and stand the fuck by.

Where do you get the M24 as a 1 moa weapon? With M118LR most of the ones I shot were .5 moa or better. Even better with Federal. I shot my old beat up M24 in Canada with Norma match and it was an animal!!

When I trained Marines and Soldiers side by side, the M24 system was hands down the favorite. Even the Marines wanted to shoot M24's after awhile. Accuracy wise, we were real lucky and were issued some old M118 match (the real shit not Special Ball). There was no difference in accuracy and if it means anything the high shooters all used M24's.

One problem with the M24 is that there is no required round count documentation which means that concievably a gun could get shot out with out the operator knowing it. But, as a trainer we used to teach the guys to keep track of it anyway. Also, I will say this. The M24 HS stock configuration does suck. I have a HS stock on my Armament Tech C-24 that is much better. Uses spacers instead of the hand wheel shit and has an adjustable cheek piece.

Optics.. Whatever works, I just like the features on the M3LR. Simple, servicable and tough. It is time to shelve the Unertl for sure.

Out

[josepy]

Do you guys have girlfriends?

[realpolypro]

LOL... http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/smile.gif You crack me up!

[tactical]

Josepy, buddy you want a three some? LOL You owe me a beer or do I you? Should be down in the Pendeleton area again soon.

Kent, you dont leave any room to argue. All great points. On the M24 being a 1moa rifle. I know it will shoot better than that but I think the requirement is only one moa. Completely agree on the modification to the rear of the stock being better with the spacers.

This is a hard one guys. Every rifle I have shot shoots better bedded but Kent is right that is a huge problem when you are in tim buck two and do not have bedding compound in your pack. So it is up to you. Bedding really tightens things up and normally will last many many years with todays compounds, but if something goes wrong you have a proble. Now the same thingcan be said about the blocks. They are just glued in with the same type of compound as the bedding. This just comes down to what you want.

Kent here is one not often tried. Take a McMillan stock and use with out bedding. Similar results to the HS unbedded stocks are what I get with frankly a much tougher stock than the HS.

Take care

Mike

[Gooch]

Girl friends?! Are you implying I ain't got a life? You are correct sir! No life! Wait till you retire someday. You hang out on the internet, talk bullshit, get fired up then go back to flip through your cruise books and diplomas. Every now and then when you are really hurting you will get out all of your old databooks and laugh at all of the shitty groups.

Damn youngsters!

I tried that deal with a Mac made LOD (gag!) stock. Torqued in a M24 action to 65 in pounds and shot about 500 rounds through it. When I took it out there was this real fine dust under the action telling me that there was movement (ever so slight) between the action and the stock.

Now, where was that databook from the 3rd MarDiv school at???

Anyone know where MGySgt Mike Latimer is these days?

Out

[KOCOA]

Tactical,

Seems like you are the man. I have surfed this site for some time now and you have all the ansewrs. I do find it funny that everytime someone brings up the differances between Police "snipers" military snipers you get offended.

If you know so much about being in "tim buck two" you would know what my user name meant when it is used in mission planning. And I'm not talking about your annual hunting trip for game.

Fact is you could not drop into the job of a sniper. Your job is more DM specific. Facts are facts........or if you know so much impress us here and put down the standard 9 line breif for air support or how many ellements in a call for fire and how many transmissions?

I know that you have posted that yoiu can't get into the military being that you are 41. Why did you not do it when you where younger like the rest of us. Even if you had it would not have given you a slot at sniper school.

I know you will ask who I am. what differance does it make. I am not saying that you are a fake. I know you are a PD "sniper". Where did I go to sniper School? Brown town you know the old quansit huts at ITS/SOI what ever you want to call it. Class 4-88 SSGT Morris NCOIC, Sgt Larrance, Cpl Conway Instructors. That should narrow it down. lets see how good you are.

Not meant to piss you off....just want to know if you know as much as you think you do. Its much more than just shooting. Thats what gives the military sniper the edge.


Originally posted by tactical:
Josepy, buddy you want a three some? LOL You owe me a beer or do I you? Should be down in the Pendeleton area again soon.

Kent, you dont leave any room to argue. All great points. On the M24 being a 1moa rifle. I know it will shoot better than that but I think the requirement is only one moa. Completely agree on the modification to the rear of the stock being better with the spacers.

This is a hard one guys. Every rifle I have shot shoots better bedded but Kent is right that is a huge problem when you are in tim buck two and do not have bedding compound in your pack. So it is up to you. Bedding really tightens things up and normally will last many many years with todays compounds, but if something goes wrong you have a proble. Now the same thingcan be said about the blocks. They are just glued in with the same type of compound as the bedding. This just comes down to what you want.

Kent here is one not often tried. Take a McMillan stock and use with out bedding. Similar results to the HS unbedded stocks are what I get with frankly a much tougher stock than the HS.

Take care

Mike

[longrange1947]

Gooch - Agree with you 100% and Mike, Mac STRONGER? Block goes from pistol grip to forward of the forestock sling swivel. A little more then "bedded in" I do think. Moving quietly with a weapon of that size and weight is a pain in the patootie and I really wonder who was in charge of weight management. Problems compound when the heavier weapon is banged against something during the adrenlin rush of stress and bullets.

We were against the spacers in 86 becasue of the three steel ball bearing rule with GIs. the adjustment does suck the big one though. We don't advice the students to adjust out further then three finger widths on the normal hand and two on the marine hand. :-)

KOCOA - We use OCOKA where we come from and used OACOK for a bit until some female got upset at the conotation. I would advise strongly agaist challengeing Mike (Tactical) on his knowledge and experience, he has you beat by a few years. While I am an army sluggo, I respect Mike and his knowledge as well as his experience. I do not wish to see another us (mil) vs them (LEO) war start over BS.

Oh well been busy and quiet over a number of things and thought I would jump into this again.

Oh yes, I am married which, as all know, is worse then not having a girl friend.


------------------
Hold Hard Guys

Rick B

[Gunny Hicks]

KOCOA:

As a fellow HOG, I can state without hesitation that Mike is 'good to go' He has never claimed to be Scout/Sniper, and has never alluded to being capable of the military specific tasks that we as Marine Scout/Snipers accel in.
What he is good at (and damned good) is shooting. Hwne he spent the week down here with teh Scout/SNiper School at Pendleotn, he out shot every Marine on the firing line. Everyday, for the entire week. On the stalks...well...not his strongest point. But atleast he had the Ghillie suit and damned well did his best. Made it into his FFP and got off his first shot.

I think Mike will be at the Sniper Symposium http://www.marinescoutsniper.com/symposium.html . You can come on out and chat with him in person. MSgt Morris (Ret.) will also be there. You can rehash old times.

Semper Fidelis



------------------
Master Sergeant, USMC Infantry
Active Duty

[tactical]

Brian and Rick nice to hear from you. Thanks for the kind words. Brian sorry but my teaching partner out here screwed up his back and I have to teach during the event you speak of. Very sorry I was looking forward to you. Started thirteen straigh twelve hour days on Sunday.

As to my experience and whoever you are attacking me,I have what I have. Master Sgt Hicks is right I am not as good a stalker as I would like to be. Hell Brian my old butt got turned sideways to the OP once. Whe I stalked against Rick I found a perfect spot, tunneled inside a rose bush. He never did see me. With that said I also would like to be a better shot. Wouldn't we all? I have been a constant work in progress for twenty years and hopefully another twenty.

As to why I did not go in the military when I was younger, O chose college and then LE. Can I say I would change it if given the chance again? Yes I would have gone into the military before college but the past is the past and can not be changed. Man I am trying ever angle to fix my lack of military experience. I posted that on here because I knew someone who might have an answer would read it and that may happen still. Sorry if you dont like the ramblings of an old cop. Read past then. Take the bad with the good.

I try and share some of what I have picked up and listen to what others have to say. I never stop learning and dont think I have the answers. Rick, Kent, Brian and many others on here and Sniper Country have helped me and I hope I have helped them and others. We agree on many things and disagree on some. Good men can disagree and still be friends. Insult me no problem insult my friends well thats another story. Whats wrong with discussing things? You affraid to learn something or do you already have the answers. You ever see whats inside that M3 Ultra or M40A1 Scope? I have and know whats good and bad of the designs.

I have never claimed to be a USMC/US Army or other Military sniper, but dont be stupid enough to think less of me because we use SMEAC instead of some other acronym (Spelling not my strong point?) I have been to many schools on most aspects of shooting from muzzle contact to 100 yards and past. Spenta few minutes with different supports and used a sling or two. I bet this old dog could teach you a thing or two. One is probably when to puch and the other counter punch. Certaily never bite into anything you dont know anything about.

If we are talking about the M24 versus the M40A3 why dont you tell me of all your experience with the M40A3. For whatever reason I have been lucky enough to put many rounds through one. Just reporting what I think after doing so. Never meant to challenge someone into posting for the first time under an AKA. Dude we can disguse on this and still use a civil tone.

Rick and Kent love the M24 for good reasons. Quantico loves the M40A3 for good reasons. I actually prefer something in the middle, a few pounds lighter. My current favoirte medium range (out to 800 yards) is something I call the Rock built by GA Precison. Kinda a modern M40A1. Funny thing is all the Pendeltonn Instructor got wood when they shot that one.

Now if you dont want to piss me off why dont you either take this to email or be civil. My name is Mike Miller whats yours?

[This message has been edited by tactical (edited 10-02-2001).]

[KOCOA]

Tactical,

Just read my old post. I was a bit harsh.........did'nt mean to be. I certanly do not think less of you. I'm greatful that you are serving our country as a Police Officer or Sheriff's Deputy. Very important job that you do. I would not want to put up with the on the streets.

As far as showing me a few tricks? I'm game. I am always willing to learn. However, biting into something that I know noting about? You assume that I don't know what? Do you want a shooting history? Ok. Been match shooting since the age of 11 (1977)small bore at first then when I was a teen I moved to high power. All NRA matches. In fact I am a leg match away from being distinguished. So I guess I have used a sling or two as well. Supports? Well I have spent a couple of minutes on them as well.

Look, I just wanted to know what your overall sniper knowledge is. I did'nt mean to say that you know nothing about shooting or the intricate workings of ballistics or how a rifle is built. I am quite certain that you know more about something in this game than I do. Just get tired of the PD shooters all over the web trying to fit in. As far as I am concerned you guys are in. I believe that you contribute to the community on many things. But in a different aspect. In my belief more like a DM. Again, my opinion.

I will be direct with you. The way you write makes it seem that you believe your the "man". I mean if you look at your post....this company sent you this, this company sent you that. Hey thats great. Alot of us here get things from companies to try out and then we give them an after action on the gear. Its great that you pass on what you think is good and what is not. Its just your dilivery that puts folks off with you.

Sorry if your still pissed at me. I will not post on here about this anymore.

[Sharky]

Gary said you looked great in a thong in the prone. None of my business though........

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[USMCSNIPERONE]

Kocoa,
S/S school in 88? Just a "Pup"! http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

Semper Fi Sniperone

[KOCOA]

Ya I'm a sexy motherf$%# in the prone. I even get carded on ocation.

[tactical]

KOCOA, look I am no way attcking you or any other sniper out there. You have already proved yourself to get the HOG status. Now where do you get off asking I prove myself to you. If you think I feel the need to prove myself to you or any other forget it. My comments to you were not a challenge and as to you teaching me something I hope you would. Everyone gets experiences from what they do. I will never discount someone because of what they do. As to the best shooters, well that would be between the USMC High Power and Civilian Shooters I have seen. Not snipers. Not me.

As to testing things and getting them sent to me by companies. That whole thing started by accident. Someone who knew me asked, I wrote about it and then several others sent me things that I wrote about. Nothing more nothing less.

My posts are not meant to sound like I think I am the man. Far from it. I think I am fair not great at my skills. If it sounds like I am a know it all, it is just poor written skills on my part. I do write now and then but I am far from a professional at it. Spent more time working out and playing football than in the classroom.

This is obviously a personal issue you have with me. It would probably be best we hook up on the phone or in person and set things straight. Again not a challenge just an offer.

By the way in 88, when you were in your first sniper school, I had been a cop for seven years. I was working U/C street level Crack Cocvaine sales, we had a pretty good size earth quake(freeways falling) to work on, a few swat call outs and then the next thing I remember was a pretty good size firestorm in the hills (lost a friend to that one)

If it makes you feel better to think of me and other cops as DM's so be it.

Mike

[josepy]

In 88 I was still in high school, which just makes you guys older than me.

[Gooch]

Don't ask Rick B where he was at in '88. He often gets 1988 confused with 1888 and starts talking about Sharps Rifles and shit. Heck by 1988 I had traded in my ghillie for Nomex. (Unless you count that litle detour through Benning in '96.) Much more civilized job with neater toys!

Mike Miller is a very sweet guy and should not be poopooed on here or any other site. Even though he is a LE guy from the San Francisco area. I hear he has a pair of Robins egg blue pumps in his deployment bag.

Man, this thread has digressed huh?!

Out

[White Devil]

Originally posted by Gooch:
pair of Robins egg blue pumps


What I find interesting is that you sound like you have much experience with these type of colors and shoes..............whattayatinkJOE?

[This message has been edited by White Devil (edited 10-02-2001).]

[Gooch]

Yeah, I have a feminin side. I developed it whilst going through sensitivity training that DA required after a small incident surrounding sniper coin's with "SS" on them. You ever see "A Clockwork Orange"? The training was something like that.

Anyway, I prefer flats to pumps and earth tones over Robins egg blue. I WAS stationed in Vallejo for 3 years you know....

Out

[josepy]

I don't know Whitey, when I worked you in Oceanside the green skivvie shirt and pink thong worked good.

The dive socks with jungle boots did not work. I liked the jungle pumps on you.

[White Devil]

Jo,

You got me, I can't even respond to that one. Chalk one up for the little gay guy.

[Sharky]

Originally posted by Gooch:
I developed it whilst going through sensitivity training that DA required after a small incident surrounding sniper coin's with "SS" on them.

Heh-heh......."Hi, my name is Roger _____ and I'm an alcoholic! LMFAO!



------------------
F.I.D.O.

[tactical]

Kent, heels? Dude you know they hurt my ankles and make me look too tall. Strickly flat soles. Now Rick he has some very nice spiked heels.LOL

Seriously take care all of you 8541's

[XGEP]

"In 88 I was still in high school"

In 88 I was 4 http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/tongue.gif

------------------
XGEP

[Gary]

The A-3 is a great precision rifle with all the bells and whistles and bend rest shooter would want. The only problem is that it is being built by bench rest shooters right out of MTU and not by Snipers. The weapon has been out of their sight twice since being developed. Once for a Sniper Comp in AZ the other year where it did ok because it was not required to be handled like a SWS and in Scotland the other month for a sniper competition where it failed miserably. After all the stalking and humping, it would not keep its zero and the Marines there got their asses kicked.

The A-3 is already 20 pounds and they are testing more accessories for it. What do the builders know? They’ve never humped or stalked a rifle before. A sniper rifle needs to be rugged and durable. Get back to the basics!

My opinions of course.

[tactical]

Gary, I agree on the weight. It should be less. I also agree, with you, on how they bedded it. They went BR style and did not bed under the chamber area of the bbl. While at first both will shoot equally well at the end the one with a bedding pad (Like the M40A1) will hold up better. The change to try and make this a switch bbl rifle was in my non 8541 opinion a mistake.

The BBL. is great quality but I think a smaller diameter would have been better in that a pound could easily be shaved without killing shooting ability.

The trigger gaurd and scope base are excellent but again weight could have been saved here by shaving maybe half a pound from the bulk.

The stock is very good but why they asked McMillan for a heavier fill I have no idea. I like the butthook area but the forend would be more user friendly if it had a slight angle to it, like a McMillan A3 stock. You could lose 1.5lbs from the stock between the fill and the forend changes. You would lsoe nothing.

So with a few mods you could shave 3lbs off. Mine weighs at 15 1/2 lbs and could go down to 12 1/2 lbs. That would be far easier to carry.

When you really look at it the M40A3 is not very different from a M40A1. Stock Trigger gaurd and scope base are different but its still a Remington 700.

Remington based sniper systems are excellent. No reason the M40A3 can not be field worthy. Mine will certainly shoot with anyother rifle I have shot.

Kent I know you like the M24 better. How much of that do you think is the MK4 M3/Ultra scope over the old Unertals?

Gary I know the USMC is still working with the Unertals and wonder how the lack of Parallex adjustment has to do with the system problems.

Not starting a war here just thinking out loud.

[Gary]

Parallex has never been a problem for any 8541 I know using his Unertle. It's not as easy to fix as some of the modern scopes but fixable non the less.

The Corps in now looking at 10 scopes to find a variable replacement for the Unertle.

[tactical]

Gary, on the Unertal you have one of two choices to adjust parallex. First is leave the retaining nut loose so you can hand adjust the onjective. Works but the objective will tunr on its own if you shoot or crawl much.

Second is to use a wrench and leave tight when not using. This works but as you well know not the best choice for field work.

One of the reasons manys shooters I have worked with liked the MK4/Ultra M3 over the Unertal was the ability to adjust parallex.

Parallex can be a problem if not adjusted properly. You end up with a scope that is only completely clear at a certain range. The one you adjusted for. Impact can be changed by a minute or so because of the parallex adjustment being wrong. I have seen this on Unertals adjusted for short range used at longer ranges. You wont see much of a problem until you shoot past around 500 to 600 yards, then everything starts to stack up and the change is there.

I think this lack of parallex adjustment is one of the reasons for other snipers doing better than the Marines in matches. Its not how the Marines shoot as they tend to be the best shots in the world. I blame it on the scope.

Now I know many guys teach not to play with the parallex adjustment but I think it helps with long range shooting. Your mileage may vary.

Still looking forward to coming to a class.

Take Care

Mike

[Gary]

Proper training and knowing how to use your equipment properly will help alleviate the small problems.

Future Marines won’t have to worry about the Unertl anyway.

[tactical]

Gary you are corrrect sir. Future Marines will not have to worry about the Unertal but the current M40A3's are saddled with them so its not fair to damm the rifle for the scope.
I understand the concerns/complaints about the weight but the rifle/combo of parts will outshoot anyone.

When I get down your way again I will let you shoot my M40A3 all you like. I am going to have another built with the weight saving done and see how it shoots.

No one has ever said that the 2112's could not build a great rifle. I think we all agree they can and do. They take great parts and put them together it should shoot well and mine does. Now I shoot what is typically concidered better than the 118LR you guys do. I use either Federal or BlackHills 175 grain loads which group better in all my rifles so maybe the ammo has something to do with it?

[Gary]

If I may reiterate:

"The A-3 is a great precision rifle with all the bells and whistles any bend rest shooter would want. The only problem is that it is being built by bench rest shooters right out of MTU and not by Snipers. The weapon has been out of their sight twice since being developed. Once for a Sniper Comp in AZ the other year where it did ok because it was not required to be handled like a SWS and in Scotland the other month for a sniper competition where it failed miserably. After all the stalking and humping, it would not keep its zero and the Marines there got their asses kicked."

The more you add, the more it weighs and the easier it is to break. Take your rifle out in the bush for 14 days then shoot a comp. Let me know how it does.

S/F

[Sharky]

Originally posted by tactical:
Gary, I agree on the weight. It should be less. I also agree, with you, on how they bedded it. They went BR style and did not bed under the chamber area of the bbl. While at first both will shoot equally well at the end the one with a bedding pad (Like the M40A1) will hold up better.

Me and Joe were talking about this on the phone the other night. My point is, why bed at all? These aren't Benchrest guns and we aren't Benchrest shooters. If it shoots 1/4 min when the 2112's send it out the door that's great but, how long can it continue to perform in the field? And first let me say that my experience with the M40 is almost none, but, from talking with a lot of Jarhead shooters...

#1. It is said that Marines don't want to send their weapons to Quantico because due to the small number of 2112's and their having to support alot more than just the S/S community, the 40's won't get returned anytime soon. So, they keep the rifles and do the best they can with what they have. With the M24 SWS they supply a kit so that the typical grunt can do most repairs himself. No need for a National Match Armorer. It's not a National Match gun. Here's the tools and the parts, the procedures for fixing it are right in the manual.

#2. Marines take the 40's apart. Whether they are supposed to or not, from what I understand, it happens. We all know that everytime they do, it damages the bedding when it goes back together. Over just a couple of years, you go from a 1/4 min gun to a 1 min gun because of it. The more you take it apart, the worse it gets. With a bedded block, you can take it apart all you like, dump the trash out, spay it out with a waterhose if you want, give it a cleaning and torque it back down, no problem. Maybe you start out with a 1/2 minute gun instead of a 1/4 minute gun but until you shoot the barrel out you will always have a 1/2 minute gun. In the long run, I'll take the 1/2 min gun, that I can repair myself, every time. The advantages are obvious.

#3. In the field. I can't speak for everyone but I've never had a 24 lose zero because of getting a beating in the field. The only way that I can see that happening is if it wasn't properly torqued to begin with.

I guess I'm probably preaching to the choir but I personally think that the Corps could do better than the M40. Tradition is an admirable thing, and one of the best things about the Corps, but when something traditional can be done better it's time to move on. (a la M14 vs M16 for their highpower teams, lesson learned and corrected)

The M24 does have some serious issues without a doubt, but they are correctable at the Grunt level. The biggest shortcomings it has right off the top of my head are the lack of an adjustable cheekpiece and that piece of shit LOP adjustment. The magazine can be a pain sometimes feeding a short action round into a long action but, that can be overcame with training.

As far as parallax goes, I think that the biggest problem that the entire community has with it is ignorance of what exactly parallax is. When I went through school, the 24's hadn't been around for long. We were still stalking with the M21's and ARTII's. The instructors didn't have any clue what the parallax adjustment was on the M3A and just told us to set it on infinity and leave it alone. That was the extent of our training concerning parallax. They just said it wasn't important and to not worry about it. What they meant was that they didn't know themselves and therefore couldn't explain it and didn't want to appear ignorant in front of the students.

One of the things that Gentry and Gooch did was to find out all they could about parallax and it's effects and teach the students about it and how to properly adjust for it. Parallax can mean the difference between a hit and a miss past about 600m. It's hard to correct for something that you don't know exists.

That could explain why the 8541's aren't having problems with it. It's probably biting them in the ass occasionally and they don't even know it. How could they if they don't know what it is? I could just about guarantee you that most Army Snipers don't really understand it nor do they know how to adjust for it.

Bottom line is, as you can guess, that I think that, with a few minor adjustments(spacers and a cheekpiece), the M24 is a better system for the common grunt Sniper. It follows the KISS principle and can go for years without needing to be nursed along, with proper Grunt care and maintenance.

Just some thoughts. Flame away fuckers .....LOL



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F.I.D.O.

[tactical]

Sharky, Gary and others I am coming to the beliefe that the USMC would be better served with putting a M24 style bedding block in the stock instead of bedding it. That is just a different manufacturing process and solve the field problems you talk of. Now do the rest of the things to bring down the weapon and it will be a better field gun. What do you think guys?
Mike

[Gooch]

Oh, oh, oh...

I had a problem with the lack of parallax adjustment once with the Unertl. I was going through the FBI observer sniper course at Quantico with a M40A1 and we were doing a lot of shooting at cop distances (less than 100 yards). My groups at 50 yards were sucking hind tit. So I called big John up at the factory and asked what the deal was.

He told me that when a Marine focuses the scope for parallax at 300 yards as is doctrine you will be parallax free at 300 but have minor parallax at all other distances. (Note: Its not parallax FREE) It gets worse at distances closer than what you are focused at so at 50 I had a ton. So I went out and checked it and sure as shit my reticle was bobbing all over the place so I refocused at 50 and groups knotted back up.

I love the unertl when you need to drive tent pens and take out sentries. Other than that I prefer the M3LR for all field shit. I have an M3LR with target turrets that I shoot in competitions. Gotta have those 1/4 moa for "v" rings.

Gary, your dead right on with the RTE thing. I went round and round with an old 2112 buddy of mine once over the HS stock v bedded mac stock. The 2112's build good guns but only when held by the hand and dragged around. Its called "in-breeding". Hell they want to make the Designated marksman rifle out of an M14!

And they wonder why I drink.

Out

[Sharky]

I know why you drink.......no comment. Are you gonna answer your e- mail or just leave me hangin?

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F.I.D.O.

[Hank]

Hey KOCOA, just a few comments. You may be "real deal" and have a cert or two to show for it, but where did that scope you use come from? Or that bullet? That stock? How about that sling? Who engineered them? Tested them? Produced them?

There are many people involved who are prior service or just pure civvies, and all of them respectable and worthy of that respect. Mike is one of those that has real world shooting and product development experience such that distinguished manufacturers and military/LEO/FLEO organizations desire his consultation. He states who he is dealing with as a way of informing or instructing. He seems to be an instructor at heart. He is not bragging or showing ego. He tells what he can because to some of us it is very interesting. Sorry you seem to have taken it as bragging.

As a someone whose lifelong interest is shooting, I enjoy Mike's input and everyone else's, such as Gooch's. So, sit back, relax, and enjoy hearing what you might not know. It really is very interesting.

[KOCOA]

Hank,

You assume that I don't know where the gear comes from? Where it is tested?

I was just some dude who carried it on a day-to-day basis.

If your wondering since you "assume" that I don't know why don't you look up Gunner Goddard who was key in putting the M40A1 together. I am sure you know the entire story behind that, or why the Army and the Navy could not get Unertals when they were first made for the Marines. That should cover the rifle and scope.

As far as rounds go? We got stuck with M118SB shit ammo. May as well pulled it out of the 60 links. Its a wonder that anyone ever qualed with that shit. The white box ammo was great when you could get it. Rare!

Slings that are used were developed before any of us were born unless you served in WWI. If your talking about those new slings that are out on the market? Show me one that you can make notches in so you can adjust it at night by feel and not have it fray. Or if your using a sling in a combat or even a police environment and you miss due to the sling failing on you........good luck in court. Try and explain why you did not use a supported position.

If all of these so called outside experts would just talk to a sniper who is packing his weapon 300 days a year they would not be putting a weapon together that is for lack of a better term SHIT!!! M40A3 Hello 2112's

I will be the first to say that it is time for the M40A1 to be up graded. I will also say that it is not for me or anyone else besides a sniper that is packing his weapon 300 days a year (training or on deployment) what would or should not be up dated. Give them the new gear to play with and let them pick based on their experiences. After all, they are the ones that will be packing it into battle. This would also build confidence.

Its great to see folks developing new things out on the ranges. Even things that some of the cops have come up with. I would tell you this though. Take it out into the field day in and day out, even a deployment or two. If it holds up and is not shit canned somewhere along the line then put it into the system.

Yes, we need the idea engine up and running. Like I said though. Let the guy packing it have a say in it. Gunner Goddard did.

[Sharky]

Originally posted by KOCOA:
Let the guy packing it have a say in it.

Amen brotha!



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F.I.D.O.

[Andy0331]

Pretty much unrelated but just to piss some off:

When I was in Gitmo in '95-'96 I used to shoot about 100 rds/week of white box Lake city National Match through my 40. When 3/2 was down I would invite them as well to our weekly stalks & shoots & we had plenty for them as well. hell, at the end of the fiscal year the ammo tech tried to get me to put 300+ rounds through my rifle in 1 afternoon.. no way.

Now, I would imagine that there is probably a shitpile of this still down there at RSC Leeward and an enterprising officer or Senior SNCO might be able to pull some strings to obtain it. We only had 2 M40A1's and couldn't possibly use all the ammo, shit, no one down there knew the value of it.

Of course I'm still reloading the brass 5 years later.

Andy

[EchoFiveMike]

In June, I pulled 340rds of LC79 Special Match from the ASP at Lejeune. I felt like Indiana Jones when I cracked the ammo can open, but it shot 3/4inch from my M40A1, which was last rebuilt just after Saudi. It went to the 2112's just after, and I just got it back. The trigger is now lighter(about 3.5lbs) and the action is slick as snot, but now the optics are dicked!! Nice fuzzy halo around the edge of the FOV It'd be nice to get a rifle where everything worked at the same time. S/F...Ken M

[tactical]

Kocoa, you make some good points. Guys who will use any equipment should be using it daily for months before a decision is made. The results you had with Special Ball ammo are also what everyone I know has had. The 118LR tends to be a great deal better.

On several other issues you are plain and simple wrong or need to learn more on the subjects.

Sling adjustment at night by feel. Thats right but by feel for the position you are shooting in would be more like it. Counting the holes would not be the way to go. Beside most I know that shoot with a sling, in the field adjust it before going out. Adjust the damm thing for a seated and you can use in either a seated or rapid prone. It may be a little on the tite side for prone but will work in a pinch. Not using a sling in LE because of liability. You watch too much TV. You use a sling when you have to make a quick shot anbd do not have time to build a position. Never anyones first choice but if you have to make a shot right now and cant go prone/bipod or pack you better be ready for seated and seated slung is far better than seated dink in the air.

M40A3 being crap well lets just go to the source than, because if you say its crap than every Remington 700 based system must be crap. That would include the M24, M40A1, Navy models, ROBAR, McBros and many others. This I also know is wrong. All are based on a good foundation.

As to the M40A3 being made by BR's, well once again you are full of it. One of the main guys that designed the system was Sergeant Jim Owens. I have talked to him about the system several times and most of the Marines that know him tell me he is good to go. Most also say you probably would talk different about the system to him in person. I found him to be an honorable and nice guy who I would not F with. I certainly would not mistake him for a Bench Rester.

As to why the Army did not go with the Unertals, that is many books so I wont bore you with the obvious. No matter they ended with a better scope. Both are now in need of an up grade. Continue to learn and improve or get run over.

This would be far more productive if you explained to the board what makes you an expert on the M40A3. How many rounds you have through one etc? How you reached your conclusions. Hell who are you? For all I know you could be shooting one daily but right now all I have to go by are a few nasty words in my direction.

[KOCOA]

"On several other issues you are plain and simple wrong or need to learn more on the subjects."

Ok, self proclaimed expert. Tell me where I am wrong. Oh and by the way its Master Sergeant Jim Owens USMC Ret. When he had the original concept it was outstanding. He is now gone and the RTE shop has fucked it all up.

Have you carried an M40A1 anywhere on deployment? ............? I thought so. You are a police sniper. You sir are talking about a weapon system that you will, and never have carried in a military sniper role. I don't care what kind of test you come up with. You will never know what its like packing that weapon on deployment somewhere. I have read some of what you talk about and your tech knowledge is good but you have no operational experiance in the military. SO! Tell me where I don't know what I am talking about. I won't get into case law with you about what has happend to police snipers when they make a bad shoot. I am sure that your aware of it. Don't make the mistake of thinking that you know what is best for someone that is on deployment carrying that weapon based on your "expert - never carried the weapon in combat much less deployment - opinion".

I know you are trying to defend your quickcuff sling. Good on you. I have seen it, used it and watched others get pissed at it as well. As far as I am concerned a hasty sling works faster than your quick cuff dose. I will tell you that you have a good idea but it needs work. As far as counting holes. No. Take you knife out and cut small patterns (ie square circle) or what ever you want to corralate for that position. This will only work on leather. Your nylon will only fray.

Watching to much TV. Ok.

As far as shooting the M40A3. Nope just take the words of my brother hogs that tell me it is shit. Don't be stupid and talk about the base of the weapon system. Rem 700 is a great base. Its some of the other things that they are doing to it that makes it shit. Ever here of KISS. Look at the Acuracy International. Great weapon.

Not all of us have had the time to set in our living rooms, drive the streets in a police car, and operate out of the trunk of it before setting up a shot. We where all to busy watching to much TV on the ship while on deployment.

As far as where I get some of my info?
Master Sergeant Neil Morris USMC Ret. and others that are in the know. Not hear say or the RTE's that think they have all the ansewrs. I guess if they were all so great the turn around time on the the M40A1's would be much shorter and the snipers would be better served by them.

So tell me....you have an M40A3 from Quantico huh. Wow, you have some pull don't you. Or is it a weapon that you have had someone replicate. I think if you stuck to your field of expertise (police sniping) you would get more military snipers to listen to you. I know I would.

Plain and simple. You don't pack the same gear that the military sniper dose to acomplish the mission. If you have an idea or some gear that you think would be a benefit to military snipers then call your buddy Hicks and see if he can get it out to the snipers that will deploy with it. Have them test it take it with them and then when they get back give you an after action report on it. If they like it I will look you up and do cart wheels for ya.

By the way.....where did I make referance to bench rest shooting? Hello observation!!!!

I too think that the Army's sytem is better but it was developed after the M40A1. Maybe the Army's political BS is better than the Corps. I don't know. Never served in the Army but have shot thier rifles and loved them. Shot the SEAL's as well and also loved them. 1/4 minute of adjustment is great. Much better than the fine tune.

Keep up the work though Tactical and if I piss you off so bad that you make a great piece of gear just to spite me then we all win.

out

[tactical]

Kocoa, I imagine we would get along fine if we met face to face. A few names,Roll on the floor awhile and then drink beer together. You obviously care about what the USMC gets and I have no problem with that. Hell I respect you for it. I dont think the M40A3 is far from a great system. It needs a little work and we completely agree on HOGs should have been in on it from the start. The AI system is a great one so no arguement there.

On my sling. It is a constant work in progress. It has changed several times dduring the last two years.All of which are up grades and better materials. I also have a sling I left down at Pendleton, in May. It is an improved 1907 design. Has no external cuff and is still fast. By the way with the cuff sling I can make 200 meter head shots from standing in less than five seconds. Any of my students can tell you this is true as I generally demonstrate it in classes. That as you know is pretty hard to do with a Hasty Sling.

For everyone else. Kocoa and I have exchanged personal emails and I dont think he means anymore harm towards me than I him. Many times things are misunderstood in written form. I am glad all of you have told me what you think of the M40A3. I will certainly let it all come out in my article which is being rewritten as we discuss this.

On my use of an M40A1. I used my first, a real one in 1983/84, my memory is bad so I cant tell you the year for certain. I used that for about ten years. I had several scopes on it.

On the deploying from a Living Room. No arguement here. I see cops with gear strung all over hell and back and laugh my ass off. Sneaking into some military schools has taught me how to orginize my gear. "If you cant carry it in a pack you dont need it" I think most Police Snipers should learn to stow gear and what is needed, so no arguement there either.

Dude you give me anyway to make my sling better and I will try. It came from looking for a better way not because I was born with all the answers. Someone out there will come up with something better sometime.

[Hank]

I totally agree with you that a grunt who has to carry and care for gear MUST be involved in its design. Unfortunately, we all know that the "grunt" will most likely be a politician and not a performer.

My point was simply that Mike is someone who has input to share with all of us and does carry in his own profession (cop). He certainly isn't someone who seems to desire to skip your input. Hell, he has had many on-line "discussions" with many end users.

I want to hear ALL input about a product, including yours and Mike's. Mike is just another source of info for me, and he usually has commonsense about it. He isn't a 365 grunt, but he is a professional who can attest to fit, finish, and usability, maybe not 365 durability, but some.

I wouldn't try to argue his credentials as he has stated what they are, but argue his findings. Argue his opinions. Hell, argue his looks! But don't dismiss his input outright because he isn't a USMC S/S. It doesn't always take a S/S to know a good or bad product, alhtough it certainly helps.

[Gooch]

Damn it KOKOA, its spelled "does" okay!

As far as the tuff cuff sling goes I helped brother mike design the thing. It has its applications. If you smuckatelly's couldn't figure out how to use it..well shit you should have been able to unless you tried it with negative waves to begin with. It may be faster to put on a hasty sling than clipping into the tuff cuff but the hasty sling aint half as stable unless you have a hook sewn into your ghillie like is on a Brit sniper smock. Ever seen one of those?

Let me get on this soap box...

One thing about some of you young buck military snipers is that many of you are too full of your own shit. How do I know this? I was one once. Thought I knew everything about anything after I graduated from 3rd MarDiv school in 1980 and knew I knew everything after graduating from Quantico. Then I got stationed at Quantico and started listening to some of the old farts, like Gunny Hathcock and some of the other dinasaurs and figured out that I didn't know shit. After I picked up Warrant Officer I had the opportunity to hang out with more ancient types and had the time to do some actual research into marksmanship and sniper related shit. Man! I look back on my days as a young hard charging NCO and how bull headed I was..

Keep an open mind, try everything more than once, never say never. I like to tell folks that we as snipers need to have a LARGE tool box. We may not use every tool on every mission but the smart man will take a look at everything and slap it in the tool box.

My favorite example was the bull headed resitance to the USMC to adopting the Harris Bipod. Man! Get a grip. Maybe it was because the stud would strip out of the M40A1 stock or some shit. The RTE guys were sold on the Parker Hale Bipod. They put one on an M40 and we screwed with it. Piece of poop. Then later on in my career I went through Benning and learned to love the Harris. Did I use it all of the time? Nope, but my personal bolt gun has one on it now.

When you think you are "the shit", you ain't. Sometimes the good Lt. trait of eyes open, mouth shut is a good thing.

Reading assignment. "Book of 5 rings" by Miyamoto Mishashi. A book on training and tactics by one of the most famous Samuri in history. Might learn something. Or you might not.

Lots of guys would still be around if they had a more open mind about training, tactics, equipment etc.

Semper Gumby.

Out

[longrange1947]

Gooch - I was enjoying the hardheaded prattle! Now you done and made them think for themselves! One true constant is that there is no "right" way of doing this stuff, only adapted techniques for the situation.



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Hold Hard Guys

Rick B

[Sharky]

Bump......just for the hell of it. Still can't believe I didn't get dogpiled by the jarheads......LOL

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F.I.D.O.

[Andy0331]

Originally posted by Sharky:
Bump......just for the hell of it. Still can't believe I didn't get dogpiled by the jarheads......LOL



Fuckin instigator! I think we briefly talked about this down on the border.

Actually/unfortunately most of your comments were pretty much on. My dislike of the M24 is only based on an afternoon of shooting so I can't pass good judgement on it. I hated the HS stock, it just doesn't feel right for me, I hated the fat ass grip! nothig wrong with it per se, I just didn't like it. The adjustable LOP, neat idea, but I hope that it would be my rifle & set to me not adjustable for anyone else. If I remeber correctly, I saw more than a few Army snipers covering the adjustment wheel with duct tape. The long action I would think is unneccessary, does the Army frequently (or ever) shoot .300 Win mag?

The M40 would be better suited to be more maintainable at the user level. I never wanted to see anything go to Quantico, even if it was a legit problem. I remember getting a scope replaced with one from a Barrett after being sent in for servicing, REAL BIG help when you're overseas.

Yep, the M40A1 has been in service for a little too long without major changes, but I'll be th first one to say that I've been out of the loop for 5 years & haven't kept up with the best out there. I know that advancements in building a bolt gun aren't huge, but optics are a different story. Personally, I liked the Unertl the parallax wasn't a big deal as most of my shooting was around 200 yds or less. I like the Mk4 M3, but I don't like the 1 min adjustments for elevation. I would love to see Unertl & Leupold get together & combine the two & make a kick ass, user friendly scope.

Andy

[Sharky]

Heheh.....wondered when you'd show up. You bring up several good points also.

Long Action: This was just the Army trying to look ahead to the future. While misguided, it is heartening to see that someone actually is trying to plan ahead. To my knowledge, nobody outside of SF/Delta has went over to the .300WM on the 24 platform.

Adjustable LOP: Another good idea gone wrong. The setup wouldn't be so bad if it didn't wobble. Most people would have used spacers instead.

Grip: Agree that it's kinda fat and feels funny at first but once you get used to it, it's not a problem for most.

M40 more maintainable at the user level: Gotta disagree. Maybe if it was pillar bedded like the M24 it would come closer. Like I said, with the exception of some major damage or a rebarrel job, most repairs to the M24 can be done by the shooter. The spare parts are right there in the kit and it comes with the necessary tools and a manual to take you through most problems step by step. The biggest problem that I remember seeing was from guys who were trying to adjust the trigger that didn't know what the hell they were doing. I think the external adjustment screw on the trigger was put there for that purpose since it really doesn't do much except make the shooter think he has adjusted his trigger. Some of those guys seemed to want a 1 1/2- 2 lb trigger and thought that playing with the weight adjustment was all there was to it. If you adjust the weight screw without properly adjusting the sear engagement and overtravel screws you can easily wind up with a very unsafe gun. The 24 comes from the factory with a very safe approx 7 lb trigger that works just fine, normally, without adjustment.

Anyway, I'm rambling, so I'll end it and see who else weighs in on this. Still waiting to get flamed....LOL



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F.I.D.O.

[Andy0331]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sharky:

M40 more maintainable at the user level: Gotta disagree. Maybe if it was pillar bedded like the M24 it would come closer.

I agree with you, or at least I meant to. As is, the M40 is not very maintainable at the user level, hell it's barely maintainable at the base level. Maybe if every Bn had an RTE, but that will never be the case. I think that an aluminum? (ala H&S & M24) bedded stock would be a pretty good trade off. I can imagine some Marines causing minor problems with it, but hey if the Army can pull it off.....

No prob on the H & S grip, like I said, I only fired one for an afternoon and it felt heinous but I'm sure I could have gotten over it.

Andy

[Gooch]

Ya'll wanna check out what I consider to be about the "perfect" sniper rifle go to www.armament.com (http://www.armament.com) and check out the C24. I got one and it's "choice". Andy Webber takes the M24 and replaces the stock with one that makes more sense, uses the HS detachable box magazine etc. Scopes will be debated till Christ returns but the rifle is just about perfect.

[USMCSNIPERONE]

Gooch,
I'll have to agree with you! I don't think there is anything else to ask for! I really like the optional 10rnd mags. I'm going to look into getting one!

Semper Fi Sniperone

[fish78]

I posted on another thread, but you guys check out www.tacticaloperations.com (http://www.tacticaloperations.com)

Speciffically the Lima and Delta models.
Claims 1/4 MOA guarentee. Let me know what you think.

[longrange1947]

OK, time to weigh in with some info. I helped develop the M24 in 86 with some guys on SOTIC. We made the first models in 86 on the short action Air Force, never used, Remington 700 Sniper rifles. Special order stuff that approximated the M40. This rifle was wooden stocked with the Redfield Accutrac scope, 3x9. Sound familiar to some of you older than dirts?

We originally used the McBros prone stock then went to the field stock. This was before all the neat tactical stuff. We settled on the H&S Precision because it was more durable and field "fixable", translate into not bedded. We have had them ran over with a 2 1/2 ton truck in 88 and maintain zero. The instructor was charged with 2 cases of beer for failing to check his clearence and the student was whacked for placing his weapon in a really stupid place. We have had them get released at an altitude of 1000 feet due to idiots not releasing their equipment properly on a jump and have never really damaged the stocks while we even had one maintain zero. Our concern at the time was the big picture that stated we could have guys that would not see any maintainence personnel for 6 months to longer and they had to do their own weapons.

Once we had the prototypes built we needed someone to push for it so we got General Guest, SWC commander, to come to Butner and fire the M21 along side the bolt gun. M21 zero at 1000 and bolt gun X with first and only shot. General Guest stated simply "Make it happen" The army jumped in and the M24 was off and running.

First rule of a field gun is that the more accurate the more fragile and there must be a balance. Next rule is if a GI can screw it up then he will thus the three steel ball bearing rule. This meant that the weapon had to be durable and withstand the GI. It must be accurate enough to put a poges dick in the dirt at normal sniper engagement ranges. Next it had to be jumperable and that meant to fit into the M1950 weapons container.

This together meant that the weapon had to have an adjustable stock to close it down to the 1950 length and meant that it must be short barreled. Spacers will be lost, three steel ball bearing rule, and any one sensible enough to shoot knows that a little tape will fix anything. Not elegant, but we were into knocking poges dicks in the dirt not profiling on the range. The scope was a tactical scope and that meant that the scope had to make it to range in one turn not multiple. I also have problems with scopes that move the bullet less then the diameter of the bullet at 100 meters, ie .30 vs .25. I don't care who you are you can't and never will see that difference. I have watched guys fiddle with that 1/4 moa adjustment and never get it right and the Palma Team went to 1/2 moa because of that reason. Too dam many clicks. If you think in your mind you need that then by all means have a ball but when you shoot a full turn off under stress then it is still a miss and that "opps" gets you and your spotter killed.

Remember guys, the more crap you hang off of a weapon the more crap there that can go wrong and get you "kilt".

The long action was there because all of a sudden someone felt that they must be able to change weapons to 300 Win Mag. This is a mistake in my opinion since most shots are fired closer then is required for the 300. If more is needed then take a big step up from 300 and go 338. Now you have a real step and not some baby step crap.

Ok babbeled enough and will take my old self to bed. too long of training days and my students don't need me to be pissed off tomorrow from being a tired old gumpy fart.



------------------
Hold Hard Guys

Rick B

[Sharky]

Good post.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[tactical]

Rick, great post and kinda says it all. On the 1/4moa scopes. I remember useing one for twelve years and then coming to a Match you ran. I shot perfect all week and then the first prize was there for my taking. All I had to do was shoot clean at 400-600 yards. Something I can do anyday of the week. Well somehow I was off one complete turn and short story I had to settle for third place before I figured out why I was missing. You said something to the effect "I was waiting for that to happen" Then something about the time it happened to you someone shot back. Well I never use a 1/4moa scope for field anymore.

On stocks I honestly cant see a difference in shooting between the HS blocked stocks and the McMillan unbedded versions. Both have shot about the same for me. I have not done any long term test to see how the unbedded McMillan stocks hold up but it seems you could issue an unbedded stock if the rare thing of braking a stock happened and then get the rifle in latter to bed. When I have done the unbedded McMillans I have torques them like the HS and that seems to be the answer to making them shoot.

For S... and Giggles I have a HS Stock on the way I am going to include it in the M40A3 tests and see whats gives. Shoot the rifle in the McMillan and HS Stock and get the real difference. I talked with McMillan about bedding blocks but they say the unbedded is just as good as a block.

Take Care

Mike

[Sharky]

Come on Gary......you know you want some of this....LOL....get my e-mail?

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[longrange1947]

Just read my post and found that I had invented words. "jumperable"? What the heck is that. OK, long days on the range with students and burnt eyes reading trace and mirage as they shoot. Sorry guys.

Mike - The difference is not in the way they shoot but in the durability of the stock. The aluminum bedding block gives a strength that just standard stock material can not match. As we found out, we will take durable every day. We have had McBros stocks take the same plunge from 1000 and the result was a busted stock at the pistol grip. Oh yes, the loopie was still functional and boxed perfectly after the fall even though the back two base screws were sheared and the base was canted up. That is the durability that we need to go for our fun and games.

Oh well, again babbeled for too long. Will now bunker in for return fire. :-)



------------------
Hold Hard Guys

Rick B

[EchoFiveMike]

Just read my post and found that I had invented words. "jumperable"? What the heck is that. <<<<

Sounds like North Carolina slang for a car that can be started with jumper cables.

I have to agree with the durability comment. I'll take a 1 minute always works gun, over a 1/4 minute sometimes works gun every day of the week. S/F...Ken M

[KOCOA]

EchoFive,

Well said. If it cuts the paste at a 100, does not feel like packing the M-2 receiver with a belt of ammo and will take a beating in the field?

Sign me up..........again!!!!

[Gooch]

"Jumperable" Sounds good to me....

I slapped an M24 into a none bedded Mac stock and when I took it apart 500 or rounds later the action was covered with green epoxy dust indicating that the surface of the stock was deteriorating under recoil. It shot good, but...

I got into a major league pissing contest wuth the former owner of the former LOD,Inc who sold a Mac built stock and claimed you could "bolt in" an action. It was their stock that I tested.

Sharky, I think you were there for that one.

Out here.

[Sharky]

Yep. I remember. I didn't like that stock anyway. No room for a sandsock underneath that square butt and I didn't like that little elevation wheel either. The Anschutz rail was kinda nice though. What ever happened to your buddy Billy anyway? LOL....

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[tactical]

Ken, when I first tested the McMillan stocks I played with them unbedded but never did a torture test. Rick says the same you do about the powder so I think they need to be bedded.

I shot the piss out of the M40A3 today. First day I felt like getting out of bed in a week. Only an ear infection left so went for it. That thing just pounds them in one whole. Worst five shot group was 1/2moa. But you know my fresh M40A1 with the same 10 US Optics scope equalled it all day long and it weighs 12 pounds with scope.

Next test will be the M40A3 on a new HS Precision stock. No bedding and see how well it does in the next month, beating the hell out of it and shooting many rounds through it.

The LOD Stock. First time I saw one I wondered who had an airplane without landing gear. What an ugly thing. Choate should have made it. When I asked someone who must remain nameless at McMillan how they came about making that the response was "We did not design that!" You know you and Sharky could get two stocks, become SEALs and have super paddles.

[Sharky]

Funny thing is, I deleted out a smartass comment about Choate in my last post before I hit the button.....LOL

Ask Gooch what he did to those stocks that Choate sent us.......hahahahahahah

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[tactical]

Wow this just reared its ugly head again.

[longrange1947]

Wow this just reared its ugly head again.

WHERE WHERE? :D

[tactical]

http://www.snipershide.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=001121#000014

[longrange1947]

I'll stay out of it. I can tell that there is some real "mine is bigger" going on. How anyone can consider a stock that the is bedded more durable than an aluminum bedding block is beyond me. A an aside, I guess that is why one of the Marines form the Adv course that came though SOTIC traded his weapon out for a M24. Also why when our guys went through the advanced course they, the other Marines liked the M24s better.

Oh well, no telling, and as far as the AI weapon hmmmm. Flavor of the month again. :D

[Prozac]

.

[Sharky]

How anyone can consider a stock that the is bedded more durable than an aluminum bedding block is beyond me.


LOL.....I was thinking the same thing. Tradition is hard to break in the USMC I guess. Oh well.

[EchoFiveMike]

Durability isn't the problem, the fact it weighes a ton and is 4' long is the problem. We never had problems with the field durability of the M40A1 rifle, we had problems because the damned things were not properly supported and were just plain worn out. I mean, what other weapon from 1968 was still in use? My issue rifle was a 1968 original, and aside from sloppy bolt travel in the raceways and it's 1980 vintage scope and mounts, it was acceptable. Ain't got shit on my GA Precision guns though. S/F....Ken M

[Sharky]

we had problems because the damned things were not properly supported and were just plain worn out.


My point exactly. Most maintenance issues with the M24SWS are correctable at the operator level. If not, you just turn it in and grab a new one that shoots just as well versus sending your rifle to Quantico where it will spend the next 1-2 years waiting to get overhauled. Nobody is saying that the M40A1-A3 sucks as a sniper rifle. But, when they go down, whether it is a maintenance issue or just plain shot out, they are down for a long time and there arent enough replacements. Someone on the other board was saying that they never break or wear out. We all know that's not true, for either system. If it was true, you wouldn't need those 2112's. You can't mass produce a glass-bedded rifle that will shoot 1/4 MOA. You can however mass produce a pillar-bedded rifle that will shoot 1/2 MOA, and that's good enough for what we do.

For example, let's say you break a firing pin or need a new spring.

M24: I walk to the arms room, get a spare out of the parts kit that comes with it, replace it in 5-10 minutes, and back in business. If it's REALLY FUBAR'ed, I turn it in to the armorer and draw a new one.

M40: Send it off to Quantico where it doesn't just get a new firing pin or spring and returned, it gets in line to be spec'd and rebuilt. You will probably be in another unit and a new enlistment before it comes back.


Which support and maintenance system would you rather have?

[longrange1947]

Durability isn't the problem, .......... S/F....Ken M

Ken, disagree. Durability is a major problem with SWSs. As Sharkey stated, if it breaks, and you have complained about that, your stick is down. The M24 will shoot with the M40 all day long. I know becasue we had Quantico Advanced Course Instructors in our class last year, grouping was the same. However, the M24 could take a beating better than the M40s. Plus, our weapon is reapirable on the range. With the M40, you are FUBARed.

The biggest problem that most shooters do not understand, as well as snipers, is that you can have a durable gun or a tack driver. You cannot have both. the goal is a gun that is durable, operator repairable, and can shoot WITH the shooter. Alot of tack drivers will out shoot the shooter, thus all that high dollar stuff is going to waste any way, AND it is now a fragile weapon system.


My two cents. :)

[Sharky]

Not even sure why anyone is arguing this issue.


Me neither. It seems like some feel that it is an Army way vs USMC way issue instead of looking at the rifles on their own merits. For the grunt sniper, the M24SWS is hands down the better choice. If the M24SWS belonged to the USMC and the M40A1 belonged to the Army, I would still say the same thing.


The biggest problem that most shooters do not understand, as well as snipers, is that you can have a durable gun or a tack driver. You cannot have both. the goal is a gun that is durable, operator repairable, and can shoot WITH the shooter. Alot of tack drivers will out shoot the shooter, thus all that high dollar stuff is going to waste any way, AND it is now a fragile weapon system.

That about sums it up right there. What good is 1/4 minute gun if you cant shoot 1/4 minute? And despite all the shit talked on the net, most snipers cant hold 1/4 minute.


Good posts, both of you.

[0802]

Not even sure why anyone is arguing this issue. The M40A1 and A3 always had durability issues.

Ken your 1968 gun is a 1968 action not a 1968 stock and bedding. The bedding on that A1 was probably changed 25 times to try and keep that thing going. The A3 is the biggest mistake the community made. The Marine Corps Sniper program has based everything it has done on a tradition that has long passed. And because of this the Marine Corps has been playing catch up ever since. There is no reason why a 2112 in Quantico should have anything to do with a sniper rifle. They are there to support the rifle team, not an operational gun. Tell me why the Marine Corps comes out with a "brand new" gun and it's not alot differen't than the one it replaced. Oh wait yes it is it's alot heavier. They decided to put aluminum pilar post in it to solve the problem of over torqing it, but they still put all that bullshit bedding in it. The gun is junk. Lucky that the boys over seas are making due with what they have and killing the bad guys.

People need to drop the tradional bullshit and realize that the Corps is way behind. The M24 is a combat rifle for a lot of reasons.

OK I'm done. Probably have a million spelling errors


You have kind of summed up what is wrong with the Marine Corps when it comes to rifles and doctrine/TTP for their training employment.

[EchoFiveMike]

Ken your 1968 gun is a 1968 action not a 1968 stock and bedding. The bedding on that A1 was probably changed 25 times to try and keep that thing going.

I know that, the last time it was fully rebuilt prior to being turned in for an A3 was 1991 right after we got back from DS/DS. However, a rebuild is new bedding and maybe a new barrel, there's nothing you can do to replace lost metal in the receiver. It's not like they're filling it with weld or sleeving it and recutting bolt raceways. That was my point, the receivers themselves, the thing that actually makes it a gun, are just worn the Hell out.

Concur with A3 points. I even like the M24, except there's no point in having a long action if you're just running 308. Build dedicated 338's if you're gonna run 338 LM, don't try to switch back and forth. 300WM isn't enough of a performance step past the 308Win to merit all the work.

Hey Guinness, you ever meet Sgt Cl-man out at Bridgeport, late 90's timeframe? S/F....Ken M

[longrange1947]

Well, the Marines have broken with Tradition and I am now envious of their new scope. Well done guys! :D

I know the scope and it is a bueaty. Have a similar one on the desk next to me right now, except it is a single.

I never felt this to be a Marine vs Army thing. Simply a durable stock versus a bedded stock thing. :)

[longrange1947]

Just, last week, put Major B in contact with our CBT DEV guy that pushed through our new spotting scopes as a paper trail to help that issue out. Hoping it helps. Our students' ability to see trace and read mirage increased dramatically after we dumped that scope AND the M144. Hell most of our students prefered the M49 over the M144. That tells what piece of junk the M144 is even compared to the M49.

Hope this stuff comes down the pike for you guys. I know that Maj B is really working hard on that end of it. I've talked with him several times now about that, the day scope and the night scope issues.

Hope this works out, hate to see you and your guys working with stuff that can be beat by better off the shelf stuff. :D

[EchoFiveMike]

Well, the Marines have broken with Tradition and I am now envious of their new scope. Well done guys!

Heck Rick, we had the Army beaten good up until you guys fielded the M24 with the Loopie, and the M40A1 with Unertl was/is a good gun when it's not a million years old and you have to run your maintainance through a completely disfunctional system.

We had pre-64 Winchester bull guns, that just defines "high class" :p

There's still three pre-64 M70's on my Bn CMR, sometimes using dinosaur procedures has an advantage:D S/F.....Ken M

[PACMAN1612]

Yeah.....WHATEVER KEN!!:D

[Invisible J]

Yeah.....WHATEVER KEN!!:D

Shouldn't you be bear crawling somewhere piggie? :D

[PACMAN1612]

Later this (oink), week (oink, oink!). Half way through the (oink) stalking package. Three more weeks and I'm oinking the fuck outa here!! (OINK!)

S/F,
Jeff :p

[Invisible J]

Just remember - natural veg is good, overhead movement is bad, and the wookie suit will never make you invisible. Good luck, that Hog's tooth is going to feel good around your neck in a few weeks.

[PACMAN1612]

Roger on all, thanks brother.

[SgtUSMC8541]

Remeber to veg the fuck out of your tripod if you are using one.

[PACMAN1612]

Dude, I've been vegging the fuck out of everything! When I stop to take a piss? Yup. Cammie paint and boot bands around my cock with leaves sticking everywhere...

[SgtUSMC8541]

Then you are on the right track. Keep up the good work.... and stay off the pig trails!

[Sharky]

I never felt this to be a Marine vs Army thing. Simply a durable stock versus a bedded stock thing. :)


Just to be clear, that wasn't directed at you bro. It was directed at the hard core types on that other site who think that if it isnt USMC issue it must be inferior.

[longrange1947]

Just to be clear, that wasn't directed at you bro. It was directed at the hard core types on that other site who think that if it isnt USMC issue it must be inferior.

Sharky, knew that bro. I was just generally reinforcing for any that thought otherwise. That is why I stayed out of the older dust up at Sniper Hide. It was a mine is bigger than yours over there. Here it was mostly on the merits of two different techniques of gun construction.

Hell, I know mine is old and small, I don't need to get into fights to prove it. :D

[EchoFiveMike]

Dude, I've been vegging the fuck out of everything! When I stop to take a piss? Yup. Cammie paint and boot bands around my cock with leaves sticking everywhere...

That's really gonna be a hit with the wife after you use the poison ivy:D

When you get back, you get to shoot the KD course. I already volunteered you for RSO:p S/F....Ken M

[PACMAN1612]

Finished. Its done and official. And after 15 hours on the road, I am now at home in my own damn bed for a change; wife, hog's tooth, and me. :D

[Invisible J]

Congrats HOG!