Special Boat Squadron

[Seoultrain34]

Was it true that the SBS was a fundamental part in training the SEAL teams in CQB? It was also stated that the SBS pioneered the tactics used by SEAL team 6. I have no idea if this is correct and would like to know whether this is false.

------------------
"...Take their rocket positions without a shot fired."

[Samuel]

Have you read my post at Navy Seals?

Read the book FIRST INTO ATION.

[Mike]

It is the Special Boat Service, not the Special Boat Squadron.

[stuart]

how, did they change their name?

------------------
'You are a time bomb, trooper, a time bomb just waiting to explode'.

[baboon]

It was SB Squadron until 1987 I think, when it changed to SB Service with the formation of the UK's Special Forces Group, which includes the SAS and SBS. The SBS now consists of a number of squadrons but is smaller than 22SAS.

[Skip]

They don't take themselves have as seriously as the SAS either. There is no distinctive beret or badge for them, and there has hardly ever been a single book written by a former member, unlike the SAS - which is becoming know as the blades authors club.

JD Ladd was booted out of Dorset for writting the invisible raiders, most of that was utter crap and the boys grew a lot of disrespect for him.

The only distinctive mark is the Swimmer Canoeist badge, which is worn by anyone who can pass the test.

Yes I believe that many tactics were developed by the SBS during the 50s and 60s which are now used by DevGroup, or Seal Team 6. These include subsurface exists that were an idea of Paddy Ashdown who became an MP for the British government.

The SBS also did a lot of the R+D for marintime CT missions - proven on both QE2 jobs.

[This message has been edited by Skip (edited 10-21-2000).]

[baboon]

There is that unofficial badge, the frog over the crossed canoe paddles topped by parachute wings. I read somewhere that the SBS now also recruits from the army, anybody know anything about this?

[Enfield]

Baboon, as I understand it, with the partial amalgamation of the SAS and SBS to cut costs, the SBS recruits from the Army. I believe this was discussed in "First Into Action". Most of Selection is now also a joint SAS/SBS thing.
As I recall, the Marines/SBS don't like recruiting from the army because the soldiers have done the Commando course, and thus aren't rally part of the RM family. And, on bases, they kind of stick out in their army berets.
The SAS has always taken Marines.

Enfield

[Mike]

An article to read is:
Katz, Samuel M., “Becoming an operator (in the Royal Marines' Special Boat Service),”
U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings. 120 (March 1994): 83-87.

There are three sections in the SBS, plus one training section. One of the three sections is the CT unit while the others are standby and training/deployment.

[soup82]

Had a friend of mine tell me a funny story. Sometime in the late 80s or 90s
someone from Guiness had some shirts made up that showed a frogman
jumping into a can of Guiness. The title read
"Not by Strength, by Guiness". SBS motto is "Not by Strength, by Guile:
as close as I can remember. The brass didn't like it and the idea was shitcanned.
However, some of the guys have a few of the shirts around.

The frog is the Drager frog.

Cheers,

Patrick LaRocque

[TonyM]

Let me know if you come across some who wants to sell one of those. That's my own personal motto, aptly applied on every occasion.

[Weekend Warrior]

The SBS and SAS haven't really amalgamated. UKSF Gp is a formation rather than a unit. There has been a lot of discussion in Whitehall on whether or not to go ahead though.
All potential candidates for UK Special Forces undergo a Joint Special Forces Selection Course and then go their separate ways at different stages soon afterwards. Reservists do certain parts of the course, with the rest as per the normal TA arrangements.

[alexander]

how well do sas and sbs get along? and do they ever perform joint missions?

[Samuel]

Alexander,read the book FIRST INTO ACTION.
It shows the rivalry between the two.
They did perform joint missions in North ireland.

[Skip]

Join missions between the two go back to WWII, when there was a large amount of joint ops in the middle east.

The SBS is actually older, by all of a few years. The SBS are very easy going - by there is a lot of uneasyness from the SAS side, perhaps they feel a bit imtimidated - but more than anything it is probably only just a bit of friendly unit rivalry.

[Daredevil]

Here's some word right from the whore's mouth. Click on the link and scroll to the bottom to read the commentary.
http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/United_Kingdom/Royal_Marines/SBS.htm

[Enfield]

Excellent commentary - thank-you to whoever provided it.
Harder than SAS selection? now there's a horrible (and challenging) thought...

Enfield

[Franz29]

I read somewhere that to join the SBS now, a recruit has to first pass selection for the SAS, then take the harder SBS selection. I envision cases where a recruit fails SBS selection and gets RTU'd to the SAS. Not sure if that would happen, but I don't see why not.
Another bone of contention, the SAS troopers still get paid more than the SBS Marine. (Great incentive to keep going with the SBS selection when the going gets tough huh? Drop out, get a pay rise!)

Can't remember which book I read that in, I read 4 SBS books in a short space of time, so the facts get kinda hazy in the memory.

-OK, just read the commentary on the site. Mentioned in there too, although he doesn't say 2 selections, just th eone with further training, but I bet that has a fair amount of drop outs!


[This message has been edited by Franz29 (edited 11-15-2000).]

[Weekend Warrior]

This whole thing about SB Selection being harder then SAS Selection to a certain extent is a... not exactly a myth, but highly subjective. As far as I know it was started by Duncan Falconer in his book, and also an interview with FHM magazine (which I have not read) in which he slagged off the SAS all the way through and made out about SB. Even some guys connected with the SBS said it was completely arrogant and even embarassing.
The SAS and SBS do the same selection course. Whereas the SAS have pre-Selection, the SBS have an aptitude course. Once Selection is complete, prospective SBS members will go on to do specific SBS training, which Falconer claims makes SB Selection harder and longer. What he omits is that SAS troopers will then go on to do troop-specific training. If they are heading for a boat troop, then they will do very similar training to SB. Whether or not swimming so many miles in the freezing ocean at night with Boat Troop or tabbing 60 miles tactically across Norway with a Mountain Troop is to a certain extent down to individual competencies.

[coleme84]

Seoultrain34, as far as I am aware, the idea of the killing house was introduced to the SEALs by the SBS, who got it from the SAS. In 1982, when the SEALs first set up their CT unit, the SBS also advised and helped train them.

[Skip]

Weekend Warrior, hrrrmmmm - I somehow doubt you know many of either. The boys from Poole (SBS) regard it as a matter of each to their own.

This thread isn't about making a comparison of the two knights of combat (comparing the preverbial apples and oranges).

The SBS (like all professional operators I know) don't take themselves all that seriously - and don't make themselves out to be what they are not.

SBS selection is awsom - to say the very least. Canoeing from the Mersey docks to douglas harbour at night time. A HALO Parachuting drop into freezing water, then swim down to a sub that may not even be there.

The SBS must achieve the same qualifications that the SAS counterparts do such as CQB, HRT, language, medical, dems, EOD etc etc etc.

At the end of the day, like all professional elite units, both the SAS and SBS endevour to evolve their skills to the highest level. Their is a lot of joint training and missions (during the Gulf war there were many).

However the SBS have been involved in the creation of almost all NATO marine or amphibious forces during and since WWII - including the SEALS, Australian Commandoes and many others.

[Dragon]

This questions is a little off topic, but maybe one of you can answer for me. Has anyone hear heard of an SBS officer named Carruthers (maybe Caruthers)? I think he served during the Gulf War. I do't expect any details, just want to know if he was in the unit.

Dragon

[jinX]

Do ALL recruits for the SBS come from the Royal Marines? Or can Navy personnel (i know the RM is technically a part of the Navy) go through selection? I read "The Making of a Royal Marine Commando" and the author stated that the majority of SBS personnel are from the Marines, unlike the SEALs, where you HAVE to be in the Navy. Just curious if what I read is still true, as the book was written several years ago.

------------------
"I am not a stormtrooper, I am a soldier of my country."

"I am not a terrorist, I am a freedom fighter."

[Skip]

Dragon can you email me some further details, I can't say I know the name - but then again I don't know that many people there.

Jinx - as was stated in a previous reply, at one stage you had to have served at least 2 years in RM before going for selection (at one stage you had to be nominated, you couldn't ask to try out). Now anyone can go for it, but they are not treated the same once in the squadrons and cannot wear the green beret.

From what I know, it is better to serve with the RM brigades first to gain a true understanding of what will be required and being your skills up to the same standard as everyone else.

You also negate the need to then attend P company to attend the parachute course. The only two ways to get your wings are either P-Coy or RM selection.

[Weekend Warrior]

"I somehow doubt you know many of either." You may well be right, but then I didn't claim to. But I do know the opinions of the guys I have met/do know.

"The boys from Poole (SBS) regard it as a matter of each to their own.";"not exactly a myth, but highly subjective"

What I meant was that I found Falconer's article, and the bits of his book that I have read, rather arrogant and controversial. There seemed to be a pervading element of "one-upmanship". As you implied, a professional soldier doesn't need to bolster his ego by comparing units.
On a slightly different topic, would an RN sailor serving with the SBS wear standard RM S/C flashes or are there special ones for the (presumably) exceedingly small number of RN personnel who apply for the SBS and then go on to pass Selection?

[jinX]

Thanks Skip for the quick and informative reply. I was just curious, as this has been a question asked before on the "American" boards - namely, are SEALs and Force Recon redundant, and should they be merged? Personally, I don't really have an opinion, but I see the merits of arguments pro- and contra-.

As for getting wings / parachute course, I wasn't aware that RM selection got you wings! Wow. Does this mean all RM who pass the commando course also have jump wings?

[I-OP]

Weekend Warrior, I couldn't agree with you more.

Skip, are you saying that the SAS /do/ make themselves out to be something they are not, and take themselves far too seriously? As with the 'SBS selection is harder', this would seem to be another rumour Falconer has started in his book.

Re: SBS being involved in the setup of almost every martime NATO unit, ditto for the Regiment and western CT units (and then some). Not sure what your point is on this one... (?)

Slightly changing the topic, have you read the commentary by the 'former' SBS marine on this site? I have trouble believing it is genuine for the simple reason that he refers to the SBS as a Regiment, something which it most certainly is not. That, coupled with the 'SB get the real missions' line makes me somewhat dubious. Kind of reminds me of the people who come on here claiming to have inside knowledge or be members of DevGru/Delta, only to reply "I could tell you but I'd have to kill you" etc.

[Daredevil]

I have to comment on this because I see it is becoming more and more common for other countries to claim they are "teaching the SEALs". The SEALs do exchanges with the SOF of many countries to share ideas but to say they are out and out teaching them is something else.

Marcinko stated when he was starting SEAL Team 6 that he learned from many countries. Not just the SBS, but also GSG-9, the GIGN, etc. For an SBS guy to say he started the whole program strikes me as something of an exaggeration, but I think guys who get out and write their memoirs are somewhat prone to exaggeration anyway. I definately think the SBS was influential but ST6 developed their own way of doing things.

About SAS attitude, I was talking to a SEAL Team 8 guy who was saying how impressed he was with a demonstration he had seen of the capabilities of GSG-9. I asked him if he had ever been around any 22nd SAS guys and he said he had. I said, "They're supposed to be the best in the world" and his reply was, "Well I don't know about that, but they certainly acted like they thought so."

I thought that was kind of funny.

[Skip]

I-OP - certain former members of the SAS are a bit OTT, to say the least. A friend who went through Sandhurst said that the SAS held a recuitment session one time. They arrived in this totally 'look at me vehicle' tinted windows, etc etc. Very un S.F.

Certain former members of the regiment have bolstered themselves far too high as well, many autobiographies by former members are also entirly fiction. Take B20.

My point on the SBS being involved in the set up of foreign SF units, well that was the origional question, dumb ass.

WW - there is no offical badge for the SBS.

As for not taking themselves as seriously as the boys from hereford, that has been the opinion from many people that work with both.

Yes the SAS have been involved in the set up of numerous foreign SF units, such as the KSK but rarely to the same extend as the SBS.

[I-OP]

Skip, I agree. Drawing attention to ones self is very un-SF - in fact, I would say writing books about ones experiences in either the Regiment or SB units is un-SF, something which former members of both units are equally guilty of.

Re: B20 (or any other books for that matter), can't comment on the authenticity of it's contents.

Re: SBS setting up other units, I took your comments in the context of your message (which was not answering the original question), hence I was querying why you mentioned it. Don't call me a dumb ass, thank you.

[Skip]

The origional question;
Was it true that the SBS was a fundamental part in training the SEAL teams in CQB?

My answer;
Yes I believe that many tactics were developed by the SBS during the 50s and 60s which are now used by DevGroup, or Seal Team 6. These include subsurface exists that were an idea of Paddy Ashdown who became an MP for the British government.

My answer is directly related to the origional question. Maramtime CQC is an art form if for no other reason than the 'ground' you stand on is in constant motion. The ability to access the target, such as an oil rig or ocean liner by stealth is essential. Hence subsurface submarine exits, HALO and HAHO tactics and long range swimming were all in use by the SBS long before Seal team 6 (now called DEVGRU) was born.

B20 has been discussed quite widely on these boards recently and in NZ another member of the patrol is trying to get his book published, Im sure you have seen the news. In it he states that the regiment recieved the patrols comms, but ignored them. On return to Saudi they were told they were expendable.

McNab (I am told) rembers the patrol, but none of the prison term because he was treated so badly. Sorry boys, it's pretty much all fiction.

Yes I agree - joining spec ops means that you shouldn't write books - you must sign the offical secrets act and are party to highly sensitive documents and details that should remain so for the security of the nation, yet some people then just throw those secrets into the public eye.

[Samuel]

I just finished Black Water by Don Camsell.
Anyone who read Falconer's book should also read this one.Falconer told a couple of stories about other operators,Don Camsell is one of them.

[RogueExec]

Jinx, SEALs and Force Recon are NOT redundant and should be left as they are, in my opinion. The missions are different, though they serve the same cause and purpose. If you really want to know whether or not they should be combined, or if they're redundant, I suggest you email RAT or GunnyHicks and ask them. You can usually catch up with one or both on the Navy Seals board.

------------------
"Don't think of it as theft. Think of it as creative augmentation of your operational capabilities."

[jinX]

RogueExec, thanks for commenting on this topic. I always look forward to more information.

There was actually a discussion a while back that I was a part of; if my memory serves me correctly, RAT and GunnyHicks were in on that one as well. I guess my post above was not very clear; perhaps what I should have posted was:

"How about a unified selection process? I know that the different services have their own peculiarities but could these not come to the fore in advanced training while with the unit? The SAS and SBS are doing joint selection now (according to some accounts and posts above); would that be a viable option for the US Military or is the SO Community too large to handle it?

Again, I understand the peculiarities of each service, and while I have NBTNDT, I can see the reasons and benefits behind joint selection. As in any job, there are unifying traits in all professionals of a given job type, and it _might_ help the US Military in general (and JSOC in particular) if there were some standard in their selection process. I know, I know, 'if it ain't broke don't fix it,' right?"

Ok, I suppose that's a bit more clear now =). I didn't mean to offend anyone, and if the term "redundant" was taken wrongly, I apologize. It was not meant to be taken as a negative statement or description.

------------------
"I am not a stormtrooper, I am a soldier of my country."

"I am not a terrorist, I am a freedom fighter."

[Daredevil]

I don't know if that's a good idea for a couple reasons. One of the big ones is I think they look at different things.

From what little I've been able to find out about Delta selection, they emphasize the ability of the individual and how he reacts to stress when he feels isolated and alone. The SEALs on the other hand, seem to really emphasize team work.

That's just one difference but I'm sure there are others.

[RogueExec]

My thoughts on the "unification" of the selection process is this: While streamlining it in that way would probably be more cost effective (which is why it will probably eventually happen!) it takes a certain pride and tradition away from the branch. A little healthy competition is good and, to paraphrase General Powell in his final press conference as JCS Chair, "We want each Air Force pilot going into the sky thinking that he's better than his Navy counterpart. We want each Marine to believe that he's that much better than his Army counterpart. This creates pride and ultimately creates a greater sense of duty." (keep in mind, I was paraphrasing) Streamlining the selection process, in my opinion, would effectively eliminate that pride in service. That could detrimentally effect morale overall and create its own enemy. I say, leave it as it is. The healthy debate of who's the best can continue and so can the individual missions of each SOF group.

------------------
"Don't think of it as theft. Think of it as creative augmentation of your operational capabilities."

[Mike]

jinX,

"I am not a stormtrooper, I am a soldier of my country."
A German soldier can disobey order if he thinks it is not right.

"I am not a terrorist, I am a freedom fighter."
The IRA or the PLO? Which one?

[jinX]

RogueExec, thanks again for replying. That really clarifies things for me and I can understand very well your point of view now.

Mike, my quote is meant to underscore my emphasis on beliefs, patriotism, and partisanship. What is considered right and good is so often influenced not by constants but by fluctuating public opinion. We are all doing what we think is right (in most cases), but how have we come to this belief? We are influenced by our surroundings - by our parents, siblings, friends, media, politicians, the list goes on. People who have been labeled "terrorists" in the past are now labeled "freedom fighters" and vice versa. Public opinion is an beautiful beast that is sadly controlled by many factors.

I could go on an on about my thoughts on terrorist stereotyping (Irish vice Serbian vice Arabic), but I don't want to subject you all to any more of my rambling. If you really want to know, feel free to e-mail me:

jinx@mail.s2net.net

------------------
"I am not a stormtrooper, I am a soldier of my country."

"I am not a terrorist, I am a freedom fighter."

[Weekend Warrior]

WW - there is no offical badge for the SBS.
So they don't wear S/C (Swimmer Canoeist)flashes?

[Skip]

I think you'll find they do - at least all the ones I've seen in Poole and in other places all wear the swimmer canoeist badge, however that qualification is open to lots of people outside the SBS.