Huey Jockeys, I need your input!

[Joe Lippke]

I know that this question would be better suited in an Army Aviation Forum, but since we don´t have such a forum...

I´m planning on building a model of a UH-1C Huey. The kit contains the mounts and the pod of a 19 x FFAR-rocket launcher. I would like to know if it would be realistic to mount additional M-134 Miniguns (the XM-21 weapon system) or would that overload the helo?

Many thanks!


For overall amusement:

The last Huey I completed this weekend.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/lippke/Huey/HueyBoard1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/lippke/Huey/HueyBoard2.jpg


JOE

[KJ]

Nice Apocolypse now huey. I'm not a huey guy, so I don't know the answer to your question. When I was a kid, I did a model of a gun huey with both rockets and twin-M-60's, but that don't mean it was right.
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/2689/india/3-7-3.jpg

[KJ]

http://www.aircav.com/huey/uhgal01/uhmg002.jpg

[KJ]

Although that might be an N-model above, this guys site says this is a photo of a C-model belonging to the 17th Aviation Company, Lancers gun platoon.

http://www.vhpamuseum.org/companies/17ahc/images/Scanned%20Picture%20unk.jpg

[KJ]

In my google search, I found a huey with rocket pods and mini-guns that was in the Vietnam war. The huey also has twin-M-60's. Only problem for your model is, the huey belongs to the Australian forces. This picture is from a huey of the 104th Signals Squadron at the Kangaroo pad on Nui Dat Hill circa 1970.

[Joe Lippke]

Ah, my fault. I know that there were A LOT of Hueys equipped with XM-21 and rockets, it has been a very popular combo. But the used rocket pods always were 7x.

KJs picture I quoted shows the "big" rocket pods mounted on the helo in the back of the pic. Those are exactly the pods that are included in my kit.

BTW: The Huey in front is definetely NOT a N-model, since the N has the exhaust pointed to the right side of the helo, not aft like this one.

Originally posted by KJ


http://www.vhpamuseum.org/companies/17ahc/images/Scanned%20Picture%20unk.jpg

KJ, the first pic you posted is extremely interesting, I´ve never seen such a type of M-60 mounting before.

This is the "usual" way that I know:

http://www.gorilla.net/~118ahc/Resources/Bandit1--64.jpg


JOE

[TigerHooter]

The Huey in KJ's post, 11-28-2004 02:55 PM, is an "H" model, maybe "D", but deffinitely not an A-C nor M. The "hinged-panel" (jump) door is the give-away. The "D" models had a slightly more powerful engine, and different rotor system/blades than the earlier models, so using that or a "H" for proof-of-concept would not be appropriate.

I'm an old Huey guy, but not as old as CPTAUSRET. Being one of the first Cobra pilots in SE Asia, he probably learned initial gunnery on C and M models.

Where is that globetrotter?

TH

[TigerHooter]

Here’s a goood site for Bell aircraft:

http://incolor.inetnebr.com/iceman/tableof.htm

It’s even referred to at the end of the following blurb from TACOM, (U.S. ARMY TACOM - ROCK ISLAND, AIRCRAFT ARMAMENT AND SMALL ARMS COMMODITY BUSINESS UNIT)

http://tri.army.mil/lc/cs/csa/aahist2.htm#UH1M

UH-1M Huey gunship.

The first three UH-1Ms were equipped with the Hughes INFANT (Iroquois Night Fighter and Night Tracker) system which used a low-light-level TV (LLLTV) and Infared searchlight to aim the M21 armament subsystem. The M134 minigun was equipped with flash suppressors and used a 9:1 ratio of ball to tracer ammunition because the normal ratio of 5:1 and muzzle flash blinded the LLLTV camera. The three aircraft were evaluated from December 1969 to February 1970 by the 227th Assault Helicopter Battalion of the 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile). The INFANT equipped UH-1M was moderately successful when flown with two conventional gunships and a Command and Control Slick. The INFANT was used to find and mark the target for the other gunships, but it was felt the AC-130A Hercules was a more capable aircraft for night operations (INFANT descriptive data provided by Larry Tweedie, Stinger 94. Larry died in May 1999 as result of complications from heart surgery).
The UH-1M was also equipped with the AN/AAQ-5 Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) fire control system, a component developed for use on the AH-1G (SMASH) Cobra. The AN/AAQ-5 provided a televised thermal image which enabled the crew to detect, identify, and fire on ground targets during day or night operations. The M21 armament subsystem was integrated with the AN/AAQ-5 FLIR in positioning and fire control aspects.

The UH-1M could also be armed with an M5 40mm grenade launcher and M60D 7.62mm or M213 .50 Cal. pintle-mounted door guns on the M59 armament subsystem. For additional info and excellent photos of the UH-1M, go to Butch Lottman's UH-1M Huey page, http://incolor.inetnebr.com/iceman/uh1m.htm
and UH-1M gunship photos page. listed above

Damn, you're making me fall back in love with aviation.

Tony

[Joe Lippke]

Well, sorry for that... ;) :D

Here we have the, in my eyes, typical Huey-Gunship combo:

http://www.aircav.com/img/cav/bm21.jpg

[Joe Lippke]

I wonder if you could combinate this:

http://www.aircav.com/img/cav/m21m158.jpg

with that:

http://www.aircav.com/img/cav/m200.jpg

Weight difference between the 19-tube and the 7-tube launcher would be about 50lbs per launcher.

Taht would mean additional 100lbs of weapons weight for the helo.


JOE

[bk1133]

An "N" model has two T-400 engines and a pointed nose. The weight difference between a 7 and a 19 shot pod is way more than 50 lbs. A "D" model is identical to an H except the engine, a D has a -11 and an H has a -13b. A M model is basically a C model with the -13b engine. D's, H's, and N's have longer cabins with "wing doors" just behind the crew doors.
The model with the exhaust out to the side is the F model. It has the same engine as the CH-46/H-3, the T-58. Only the Airforce used them as far as I know.

I can get the exact weights of the mounts and systems, I've got an old -10 manual (operators manual) around somewhere. My unit in the Jersey Guard was one of the last to fly M models. I think we got rid of them probably around 1990.

Basically, if you have 19 shot pods, a C model can't carry much else. Especially if it was in Nam.

[KJ]

Beat me to the punch bk, as being a blue suiter the only hueys I flew in were F and N models. Thanks for that great synopsis.

[bk1133]

KJ,

I've been pretty lucky, I like Hueys, and I've been able to work and fly on most versions. I was a Huey Crew chief in the Marines. I worked at PAX River MD as a contractor, as a test & eval base, it was great, especially if you like aircraft. I then worked at Lakehurst NJ for the Army in R&D. And as I said the Guard. The Army operates an N model at Aberdeen, its an old Airforce ship.

My unit in the Guard was one of the last to fly OH-6a's, UH-1M's, AH-1E's, F's, S's and C-Nites. Like I said, I've worked on C's, D's, H's, 412's, N's, an E, both UH and TH-1L's, and some oddballs like SOTAS and X's. I also worked on all but the newest Cobras to include the W when it was still called a T+.

[KJ]

Tell that to CPTAUSRET, and you won't have to buy any beer for the rest of the night!

[Highspeed160th]

Originally posted by bk1133
KJ,

I've been pretty lucky, I like Hueys, and I've been able to work and fly on most versions. I was a Huey Crew chief in the Marines. I worked at PAX River MD as a contractor, as a test & eval base, it was great, especially if you like aircraft. I then worked at Lakehurst NJ for the Army in R&D. And as I said the Guard. The Army operates an N model at Aberdeen, its an old Airforce ship.

My unit in the Guard was one of the last to fly OH-6a's, UH-1M's, AH-1E's, F's, S's and C-Nites. Like I said, I've worked on C's, D's, H's, 412's, N's, an E, both UH and TH-1L's, and some oddballs like SOTAS and X's. I also worked on all but the newest Cobras to include the W when it was still called a T+.

Did you work in the big hanger? I had you guys make me some luggage once...really I did. That blimp hanger was the shit.

[bk1133]

Highspeed160th,

I worked in Hanger 5, there is two blimp hangers seperated from the rest with big red doors on each end. I worked in the one on the right. I can believe the luggage, guys there could make anything.

Judging by your name I guess you know we did mods on some of your 60's and little birds. I flew alot of NV tests on your stuff, we did different NVG's and IR/thermal kits from different countries. Very cool job.

The stories about the weather patterns in the hangers are true. It would rain and snow inside the hangers. There is actually hangers inside of them so you could work without getting wet. The doors are so big they used trains to open them.

I've also been involved in testing different weapons from helos. MG's, rockets, missles, etc. Shot everything from 5.56 to 30mm out of different birds. Was in an N model when it shot a Penguin missle. We tested some configurations during your DAP tests. The engineers put vib gear and strain guages all over the acft then after the shoots we'ed check for cracks, leaks etc. The insp wasn't fun but the shooting was!

The pilots didn't have much fun. The tests had to be done at certain speeds headings etc. to ensure the test shots were the same each time. Each flight getting progressively faster. We also did all the testing that eventually showed up in you flight manuals as limits. All in all great stuff!

[Highspeed160th]

I had a blast while I was there. Worked with weapons department on occasion.

I also got in a minor altercation...when I tried to pump my own gas in the garden state. It seems this is a higly technical position so when I attempted to do it. The PHD in pumpology asked me "What the fuck are doing?" I responded with "what the fuck does it look like?" Which didn't offend him cuz that's the way Ya'all talk up there. He did however take offense after he explained to me that it is illegal to pump your own gas. I responded with "Well taht's fucked up...it don't take a PHD in dumbass to pump gas!" Seems he had made this his lifes work.:D

My favorite place for flight testing was Edwards, pointy headed engineers and prima donna Naval test pilot school grads. But the off time was fun.

[bk1133]

Yeah, pumping gas in the big NJ is very technical, and yes we use the fuck word alot.

When I worked at Pax I was at the RWATD, next to the Naval Test Pilot School. I'm surprised the let the word "pilot" in the title, they seem to prefer "aviator". Thats were I learned that "fucking pilot" is actually two words.

I'm recently out of aviation but not away from pointy headed engineers. I work for the Army training soldiers to use weapons optics. I work with engineers who develope weapons and ammo....real wack jobs (another Jersey term of endearment).

[CPTAUSRET]

Originally posted by bk1133
Thats were I learned that "fucking pilot" is actually two words.


You sure that's two words??

Terry

[Joe Lippke]

Thank you for all the input guys (and the obvious "off-topic"-discussion ;) ), but I have two questions left:

First one:

Who handles the M60s on this Huey?

http://www.gorilla.net/~118ahc/Resources/Bandit1--64.jpg

Does the crew of this helo consist of 4 men (pilot, co-pilot, crew chief, gunner)?


And the other one: When you take a closer look on the men inside my model-Huey, you can see that they are pointing their weapons outside. I already had a discussion in a german forum that firing small arms out of a flying helo would be a strict "no no".
Right or wrong?


Hey Terry, you like my Slick? :)


JOE

[Ace]

Originally posted by Joe Lippke

Who handles the M60s on this Huey?

Does the crew of this helo consist of 4 men (pilot, co-pilot, crew chief, gunner)?

And the other one: When you take a closer look on the men inside my model-Huey, you can see that they are pointing their weapons outside. I already had a discussion in a german forum that firing small arms out of a flying helo would be a strict "no no".
Right or wrong?


The one in your Pic, the CrewChief would be on the left side (Left based on looking forward, inside the acft), the other side is manned by a gunner, MOS dependent but usually an 11 series. It all depends on which side the Tail Rotor is on. If it's on the left, the CE sits on the left, if it's on the right, he sits on the right. One of his functions is to clear the tail upon landing.

Small arms from a helicopter is unit dependant. If you are talking about modern U.S. military, then you are correct, shooting small arms from the acft would be a strict no-no. Understand that Spec Op's units and units during 'Nam didn't have safety guru's that bitched about every little thing and shooting small arms is/was accepted.

If you look at some of the Huey models from around 64, 65, 66 some didn't have gun mounts, they used bungy cords to mount the 60's on (Which led to various acft getting there own rotors shot to shit by the gunner/CE). That technique has come in handy well after 'Nam was over.

[Joe Lippke]

Thanks Ace, that sums it up pretty well! :)


JOE

[KJ]

Right, that is the way it is done on an Army helicopter. I say this because an Air Force helicopter is backwards from that, in a way. The Flight Engineer (not Crew Chief, who have to fix the helicopter as well as fly it) is on the right side. And the Aerial Gunner is on the left. Not because of the tailrotor, but because the FE operates the hoist and the hoist is mounted on the right side. Hoists seem to be mounted on the right side because pointy-headed engineers think that the Aircraft Commander (the pilot, not the copilot), who sits on the right in a helicopter, can operate this equipment by himself while flying the helicopter. And yes, unlike an airplane, the pilot sits on in the right seat and not the left. Hahaha. I laugh. Clear as mud?

[Mikey G]

Originally posted by KJ
The Flight Engineer (not Crew Chief, who have to fix the helicopter as well as fly it) is on the right side. And the Aerial Gunner is on the left.

nice eh? Heh, the only time us crew chiefs get to fly is for an FCF, cross country run, or an out-and-back. I think we are the only service that have helo FE's instead of crew chiefs flying full time.

[Ace]

KJ,

We do something similar. Regular Army doesn't use a hoist (not wide spread) but within USASOC both guys in back are CE (Term for Crewchief, I believe this is a throwback from the 'Nam era, when we log flight time the block marked is "CE" for Crew Engineer).

Regular Army, if a hoist is used, the CE would sit on the side of the hoist, or move to that side when it's use is needed.

[WS-G]

Originally posted by KJ
And yes, unlike an airplane, the pilot sits on in the right seat and not the left.
And of course there are always exceptions. The Enstrom 280 series, for example, is placarded "SOLO FLIGHT FROM LEFT SEAT ONLY". :D

[KJ]

Ace and myself have often had discussions on this. Truly, I feel the Army is taking advantage of their Crew Chiefs by making them fix AND fly. Just my two pesos worth.

[Ace]

KJ,
I completely agree. Nothing sucks more than having a long day: 1800 preflight, followed by mission brief, then crew brief, go fly the mission (anywhere from 1 to 10 hours), then land, pilot does a quick --2 minute-- post flight (good ones actually look at shit), both pilots walk off, the CE has at least another 4 hours of work to get the Acft ready for the next day. Generally a short flight of 2 hours is a 10 hour day for the crewchief.

Then they say "crew rest policy" (or whatever fancy name your unit puts on it, some call it "Fighter Managment") yea right. Maybe for the officers.
If the enlisted guys actually followed the Crew Rest Policy, the O.R. Rate (Operational Readiness) would hit rock bottom because nothing would get fixed in time. On the days you don't fly, you spend all day trying to get parts and fix all the little shit that you didn't have time to fix before.

That's where pride comes in, if you don't have enough pride in the job you do or the Acft that is yours, stay out of this business in the Army.

[Joe Lippke]

I found an interesting picture with a B-Huey that´s really heavy loaded.

Although the pic says that this Huey had a pair of doormounted M60s, what about the crew of an armed Huey without doorguns? Would those "pure" gunships fly with a crewchief also or only with pilot/co-pilot?


JOE

[bk1133]

I disagree with you Ace and KJ, I think that a FE or CE who can't fix what he's flying in is just a passenger with a fancy jacket and sunglasses. I've been in an Army Guard unit were the CE's just fly. I've had to go recover them for BS they should have been able to fix on the spot. It does suck, the long days and nights, but thats just part of the job.

I'm in the habit of calling those guys (non-fixing flyers) flight attendents, no offence to flight attendents. But its only one guys opinion. And that fighter management is a joke, used by the flight attendents to get out of work. It doesn't seem to apply to most enlisted slim.

And yes a CE flies with the gunship, at least we did in the big NJ. We had M models, a few rigged up just like the pic. Thing was built like a truck. Hope I didn't offend you guys with my rant, its just a pet peave of mine.

Bob

[Nuke]

With a sortie that can last 2.0 hours or even two sorties of 2.0 hours a day it can work with a flying crew chief!
Throw some missions that can last 9.0 and up into the mix and plan to do it day in and day out and the crew chief cant be the man to operate the weapon and fix the aircraft also.
The pilot in todays aircraft need someone that is alert to clear the aircraft in tight LZ's and to make good judgment calls to help keep the pilot and aircraft out of a tight fix.

[Mikey G]

Here's a question. I went through the same technical training the Army does for its Helicopter Crew Chiefs (60's). Do all Army CC's fly? or do they have permanent ground crews as well? I'd imagine that if a flying crew chief flys 4.0+ hrs a day (plus give time for mission planning, debrief, post flight inspections, etc) he should still have ground crews to back him up. Also, do Army CC's go through different schools after learning how to fix them?

i have mixed feelings towards the air force having flying CC's vs FE's. I'd imagine we'd have to go through a lot more schools to accomplish this.

If any of this violates OPSEC, disregard and i'll edit the post.

[Highspeed160th]

The Army guys got to do it all. Pre flight, post flight, records, PM, refuel, turn in weapons, covers, push them into the hanger, wash the windows, clean up the trash...and lock up the hanger. Am I forgeting anything?

I wondered what Airforce CE's, FE's, and door gunners did when they weren't flying?

[Mikey G]

Originally posted by Highspeed160th
I wondered what Airforce CE's, FE's, and door gunners did when they weren't flying?

Foosball? :D

[Highspeed160th]

Originally posted by H60CC
Foosball? :D

That was for PT right?:D

[Mikey G]

I'm more of a Ping Pong man myself when it comes to PT :)

[Fire-Gunner]

Originally posted by Highspeed160th
The Army guys got to do it all. Pre flight, post flight, records, PM, refuel, turn in weapons, covers, push them into the hanger, wash the windows, clean up the trash...and lock up the hanger. Am I forgeting anything?

I wondered what Airforce CE's, FE's, and door gunners did when they weren't flying?

Drink beer.

Aim High, Dude!:D

[Ace]

Originally posted by bk1133
I disagree with you Ace and KJ, I think that a FE or CE who can't fix what he's flying in is just a passenger with a fancy jacket and sunglasses.

Which part are you disagreeing with so I know how to answer?

[CPTAUSRET]

Here is a B-model which belonged to A Co 101st, this would have been from around the late 65-early 66 timeframe.

Terry

[bk1133]

I do understand the long hours, missions, paperwork and everything else. May haps the beer was talking abit more aggressive than I ment it. I've been a crewchief and gunner on numerous aircraft types. In the USMC, Army, and civilian. The crew always did everything but heavy maint by ourselves. (By crew I mean pilots crew chiefs and gunner/mech.) And it don't get easier as you get older, I'm 42.

I do believe the CE should be with his acft and know it thoroughly. (Obviously he/she can't know everything) And I do understand the opposite views I'm sure most of you hold. I'm prepared for the scoldings.....

[Joe Lippke]

I have another question: What´s the deal about these nose-antennas you can see on my attached picture? Some B- und C-Hueys have them, some don´t...


JOE

*Edited cause my me dumbass attached the wrong pic*

[KJ]

One thing you can count on, when an Air Force FE or AG are in the window or in the seat, they are not sleeping. They don't use the helicopter for a hotel room or vice-a-versa.

I ain't saying the Army or USMC or anybody else is sleeping while flying. It's just that pulling a 14, waivered 16-hour, crew-duty day with just mission prep, mission flight and post op is a long, long day and can't be done if you have to fix the bird also.

Bottom line: I NEVER slept on a helicopter. Ever! And I am still alive to prove it.