A soldier
18 December 2004, 19:34
When I started this thread it was with the intention of figuring out which martial art was the best for me. Then I went through all of the martial arts posts made here and discovered there wasn't any martial arts system that was "the best".
In my search on Martial arts systems i found that everyewere I searched, a system never went into what I found was an "Adrenal Dump".
XS2 said it best
" Gross motor movements against large targets are all that will work when under stress, when being caught by supprise, when tired, injured, being struck yourself,"
Sound familiar this has happened to me everytime I was in a fight and 5 years of martialarts training would just fly out the window in a middle of a fight because of fear and adrenaline. When I was searching I found someone had even given this effect a name
"The Adrenal Dump".
Ill let the person who came up with this theory (Shihan Mical Pace)
say it best
"" It is my belief that most of what is being taught in probably
ninety percent of martial arts schools, seminars and videos just
will not work on the street....
I came to this realization quite a few years ago....
"Fighting the Bulletman"
I was sitting in a national martial arts convention. This guy was
up on stage talking about adrenaline stress response training.
I had never heard about it at the time. The instructor was talking
about the effects of fear induced adrenaline on the mind and
body during an actual street attack. I was intrigued.
A little later in the demonstration they asked for
a few volunteers. Several men and a women were chosen to go up on
stage. The next thing that happened had most of us feeling the effects
of adrenaline, right in our seats.
Another instructor comes out in this weird looking
suit. He has football shoulder pads and some obvious groin protection.
On his head he wore a huge piece of headgear which I found out later
was a professional football helmet with four layers of special density
foam padding wrapped in silver tape.
They called this ‘monster' the Bulletman, obviously
because of the silver round headgear that looked like the top of
a bullet. One of the volunteers was asked to come out. The instructions
were to try to maneuver around the Bulletman without getting too
close. If the Bulletman attacked they could strike him full force
into the groin and head.
The action began… The Bulletman starts screaming at
the guy. He shouts obscenities at him. He taunts him. He faints
attacks as he threatens the guy. I could feel my gut shaking just
sitting there. Then suddenly the Bulletman attacks. The poor guy
attempts some foolhardy kick which embarrassingly misses the mark
by about a foot. Next a punch that had less impact than my eight
year old grandson could muster. After a few more minutes of this
hideous display a women instructor blows a whistle and the whole
thing is over.
A few more volunteers and about the same result. Now
here is the interesting part. Everyone of these volunteers were
experienced black belts. Some were school owners with a dozen years
or so of experience. So whey did this happen?
They fell prey to the natural effects of adrenaline
on the mind and body. Adrenaline is the natural result of fear induced
aggression. It really can't be stopped but it can be focused and
used. These black belt volunteers had tried to use their dojo (and
dojang) techniques. What they hadn't anticipated was that the adrenaline
had dulled their senses. It minimized their fine motor skills, it
gave them tunnel vision and even affected their cognitive thinking.
With out taking this adrenal rush into account, effective
street self defense cannot be accomplished. To be effective, each
technique must be simple, direct and not require fine motor coordination.
Additionally, the techniques should build, one upon another so
that a minimum number of total techniques (regardless of the type
of attack) need be learned and practiced.....
Fear is very powerful. The adrenal "dump" has severe effects on
us both physically and mentally. Here are some of things that happen:
* It is doubtful whether most could remember more than a
handful of technques under duress. This is due to the loss
of some or most of our cognitive (reasoning) thinking.
* Our fine motor coordination is minimized. What's left is only gross motor
skills. Many of the techniques taught in many
martial arts schools and self defense programs require pinpoint targeting or
wrist or joint manipulation. This probably isn't
going to happen under a strong adrenal rush.
* We lose peripheral vision. Our field of vision tends to tunnel
in. Things sometimes appear much larger than they really are. The
more one stays focused in one line of vision the worse this becomes.
* We feel weak at the knees or develop body shakes. Breathing becomes short and
rapid. In fact studies have shown that if the heart beat gets high enough we can
become totally "frozen in fear".
* Adrenal Stress Response Training experts say that most people
will not be able to recall or more importantly execute more than four or five
techniques or steps to effective self defense while under the duress of an
attack.
Because most self defense instructors have not experienced this while
trying to execute the techniques they are teaching, they really have
no way of knowing whether what they are teaching could actually be
done by the average person, while under duress.""
So the questioun I am asking is really this how can you train for the stress/Duress/fear of a real world attack.
Every Instructor I have talked to swears up and down that their system is the best one for self defense , How can I spot the BS.
From reading the posts I have gathered that looking for full contact dojos, where pain is essential and one where there are no 16 year old blackbelts is is a must.
But how do I judge the instructor, after all if crappy instructor teaches a good system the you are just wasting youre time.
So how do I spot the quality instructors from the crap instructors. I have been with fit instructors who never gave a crap or that taught poorly, when I talk to the instructor and practice a class with him what are the warning signs that he is a poor instructor.
Well if the BTDT on this board could answer my questioun I would be appreciative.
For those of you who are contemplating which Martial Arts system to use I have compiled a short list of the differnce between the different systems.While the differnce is far from clear I have compiled this short list of the differnent martial arts just the basic styles, I have not gone into the various branches of kung fu or aikido because they are too numerous to list.I make no claim here to know more than anyone else here hell SGT Rock and Ranger Hazen have probably more years experince than I have lived on this planet.
This is just a collection of all the information I have found on the Web and SOCnet as well as some of my personal experince.
I hope this list serves peopole coming here well.
If I have made a mistake here please tell me and I will correct it.
Note: There is something more imprtant than any system you can learn and that is mental attitude. That means when you see someone who can pulverise you into the Earth you dont get scared, which is the natural response. You get Angry or Hatefull or whatever other thing works for you. You say "I dont give a fuck what hapeens next but I am going to put this punk six feet under"
You dont think of the danger of him or anything just bashing the daylights out of the individual in questioun.
If you can't master this mental attitude all the Martial arts in the World wont save you.
To see exactly what I am talking about look up a post From SGT rock on a thread called the consequences of not fighting. He explains the mental attitude best.
Aikido- martial art based on the priniciple of using an opponents owen force aginst themsleves, with extensive use of throws.
Jiu-jitsu: An art that blends ground fighting, throwing techniques, and attacks from the ground.
Karate:A martial art based on kicking punching and blocking attacks all focused on fighting from a standing position.
Kendo: sword figthing
Tae-kwon do: A martial art that focuse on fighting using mainly the legs.
Tai-Chi : A martial art baisng itself on the same principle as aikido
of using an opponents force agianst himself, however form what I have read and expereinced with Tai-Chi it is more relaxation oriented, less combat oriented, then again my experince is limited I may know nothing.
Kung-Fu : It is apparently the opposite from Tai-Chi with Kung-Fu taking the same principles form Tai-Chi and applying it in a more combatlike way. Not entirely clear on what prinicple this martial arts works on. From what I understand from a friend who practices the system and swears by it is entirley based on technique and therfore is not dependant on strength , I am unclear how true this is. I do know that the higher levels trainees are trained to be immune to pain by practicing in the cold or punching and bags repetadly untill the nerves in the knuckles are less sensitive to pain.
Judo : A martial arts system designed mainly for Throwing opponents.
Then there are the combatives, from what I have gathered the major differnce between combatives and Martial arts is the speed with which you gain basic self defense techniques versus your'e overall abilities. With most Martial arts it takes at least 4 years to learn the basics and 10 years to get realy proficient, so that learning combatives you will more learn how to defend yourself more quickly, while with martial arts you can get more advanced results what those are I don't know I'm just summarising what other have said in this case
"poison":
" Krav Maga is not whatsoever a "consumate" martial art, it is more like saying "here let's teach you 10 basic Marine Corps knife defenses and reapply those to unarmed combat also and we'll leave your 'level' of skill up to you -- in as much as the more you train the better you get."
"Consumate" martial arts will always involve the much ridiculed forms/Kata, patterns/one-steps, and psychological aspects too. The program should always be at least 4 years long before you are considered fit enough to learn the "real fighting"...
In other words, if you have played karate for 4 years and got a black belt, you still are not a "real fighter" in the martial arts sense of that phrase... that's only the beginning.
I say this, because in Krav Maga they don't have a consumate system, there is no concept of this sort of thinking.
My opinion is probably obvious, I think KravMaga is basic-training hand-to-hand drills with longer hours."
Remember Combatives ;Krav Maga, Hisardut,Kapak, Systema and whatever other comabtive system you can come up with were designed to train large groups of men who may have had no fightning expereince into effectvie fighters in a short time. As such they teach simple dirty fighting techniques with a heavy amount spent on learning to absorb blows (i.e. pain).
In my search on Martial arts systems i found that everyewere I searched, a system never went into what I found was an "Adrenal Dump".
XS2 said it best
" Gross motor movements against large targets are all that will work when under stress, when being caught by supprise, when tired, injured, being struck yourself,"
Sound familiar this has happened to me everytime I was in a fight and 5 years of martialarts training would just fly out the window in a middle of a fight because of fear and adrenaline. When I was searching I found someone had even given this effect a name
"The Adrenal Dump".
Ill let the person who came up with this theory (Shihan Mical Pace)
say it best
"" It is my belief that most of what is being taught in probably
ninety percent of martial arts schools, seminars and videos just
will not work on the street....
I came to this realization quite a few years ago....
"Fighting the Bulletman"
I was sitting in a national martial arts convention. This guy was
up on stage talking about adrenaline stress response training.
I had never heard about it at the time. The instructor was talking
about the effects of fear induced adrenaline on the mind and
body during an actual street attack. I was intrigued.
A little later in the demonstration they asked for
a few volunteers. Several men and a women were chosen to go up on
stage. The next thing that happened had most of us feeling the effects
of adrenaline, right in our seats.
Another instructor comes out in this weird looking
suit. He has football shoulder pads and some obvious groin protection.
On his head he wore a huge piece of headgear which I found out later
was a professional football helmet with four layers of special density
foam padding wrapped in silver tape.
They called this ‘monster' the Bulletman, obviously
because of the silver round headgear that looked like the top of
a bullet. One of the volunteers was asked to come out. The instructions
were to try to maneuver around the Bulletman without getting too
close. If the Bulletman attacked they could strike him full force
into the groin and head.
The action began… The Bulletman starts screaming at
the guy. He shouts obscenities at him. He taunts him. He faints
attacks as he threatens the guy. I could feel my gut shaking just
sitting there. Then suddenly the Bulletman attacks. The poor guy
attempts some foolhardy kick which embarrassingly misses the mark
by about a foot. Next a punch that had less impact than my eight
year old grandson could muster. After a few more minutes of this
hideous display a women instructor blows a whistle and the whole
thing is over.
A few more volunteers and about the same result. Now
here is the interesting part. Everyone of these volunteers were
experienced black belts. Some were school owners with a dozen years
or so of experience. So whey did this happen?
They fell prey to the natural effects of adrenaline
on the mind and body. Adrenaline is the natural result of fear induced
aggression. It really can't be stopped but it can be focused and
used. These black belt volunteers had tried to use their dojo (and
dojang) techniques. What they hadn't anticipated was that the adrenaline
had dulled their senses. It minimized their fine motor skills, it
gave them tunnel vision and even affected their cognitive thinking.
With out taking this adrenal rush into account, effective
street self defense cannot be accomplished. To be effective, each
technique must be simple, direct and not require fine motor coordination.
Additionally, the techniques should build, one upon another so
that a minimum number of total techniques (regardless of the type
of attack) need be learned and practiced.....
Fear is very powerful. The adrenal "dump" has severe effects on
us both physically and mentally. Here are some of things that happen:
* It is doubtful whether most could remember more than a
handful of technques under duress. This is due to the loss
of some or most of our cognitive (reasoning) thinking.
* Our fine motor coordination is minimized. What's left is only gross motor
skills. Many of the techniques taught in many
martial arts schools and self defense programs require pinpoint targeting or
wrist or joint manipulation. This probably isn't
going to happen under a strong adrenal rush.
* We lose peripheral vision. Our field of vision tends to tunnel
in. Things sometimes appear much larger than they really are. The
more one stays focused in one line of vision the worse this becomes.
* We feel weak at the knees or develop body shakes. Breathing becomes short and
rapid. In fact studies have shown that if the heart beat gets high enough we can
become totally "frozen in fear".
* Adrenal Stress Response Training experts say that most people
will not be able to recall or more importantly execute more than four or five
techniques or steps to effective self defense while under the duress of an
attack.
Because most self defense instructors have not experienced this while
trying to execute the techniques they are teaching, they really have
no way of knowing whether what they are teaching could actually be
done by the average person, while under duress.""
So the questioun I am asking is really this how can you train for the stress/Duress/fear of a real world attack.
Every Instructor I have talked to swears up and down that their system is the best one for self defense , How can I spot the BS.
From reading the posts I have gathered that looking for full contact dojos, where pain is essential and one where there are no 16 year old blackbelts is is a must.
But how do I judge the instructor, after all if crappy instructor teaches a good system the you are just wasting youre time.
So how do I spot the quality instructors from the crap instructors. I have been with fit instructors who never gave a crap or that taught poorly, when I talk to the instructor and practice a class with him what are the warning signs that he is a poor instructor.
Well if the BTDT on this board could answer my questioun I would be appreciative.
For those of you who are contemplating which Martial Arts system to use I have compiled a short list of the differnce between the different systems.While the differnce is far from clear I have compiled this short list of the differnent martial arts just the basic styles, I have not gone into the various branches of kung fu or aikido because they are too numerous to list.I make no claim here to know more than anyone else here hell SGT Rock and Ranger Hazen have probably more years experince than I have lived on this planet.
This is just a collection of all the information I have found on the Web and SOCnet as well as some of my personal experince.
I hope this list serves peopole coming here well.
If I have made a mistake here please tell me and I will correct it.
Note: There is something more imprtant than any system you can learn and that is mental attitude. That means when you see someone who can pulverise you into the Earth you dont get scared, which is the natural response. You get Angry or Hatefull or whatever other thing works for you. You say "I dont give a fuck what hapeens next but I am going to put this punk six feet under"
You dont think of the danger of him or anything just bashing the daylights out of the individual in questioun.
If you can't master this mental attitude all the Martial arts in the World wont save you.
To see exactly what I am talking about look up a post From SGT rock on a thread called the consequences of not fighting. He explains the mental attitude best.
Aikido- martial art based on the priniciple of using an opponents owen force aginst themsleves, with extensive use of throws.
Jiu-jitsu: An art that blends ground fighting, throwing techniques, and attacks from the ground.
Karate:A martial art based on kicking punching and blocking attacks all focused on fighting from a standing position.
Kendo: sword figthing
Tae-kwon do: A martial art that focuse on fighting using mainly the legs.
Tai-Chi : A martial art baisng itself on the same principle as aikido
of using an opponents force agianst himself, however form what I have read and expereinced with Tai-Chi it is more relaxation oriented, less combat oriented, then again my experince is limited I may know nothing.
Kung-Fu : It is apparently the opposite from Tai-Chi with Kung-Fu taking the same principles form Tai-Chi and applying it in a more combatlike way. Not entirely clear on what prinicple this martial arts works on. From what I understand from a friend who practices the system and swears by it is entirley based on technique and therfore is not dependant on strength , I am unclear how true this is. I do know that the higher levels trainees are trained to be immune to pain by practicing in the cold or punching and bags repetadly untill the nerves in the knuckles are less sensitive to pain.
Judo : A martial arts system designed mainly for Throwing opponents.
Then there are the combatives, from what I have gathered the major differnce between combatives and Martial arts is the speed with which you gain basic self defense techniques versus your'e overall abilities. With most Martial arts it takes at least 4 years to learn the basics and 10 years to get realy proficient, so that learning combatives you will more learn how to defend yourself more quickly, while with martial arts you can get more advanced results what those are I don't know I'm just summarising what other have said in this case
"poison":
" Krav Maga is not whatsoever a "consumate" martial art, it is more like saying "here let's teach you 10 basic Marine Corps knife defenses and reapply those to unarmed combat also and we'll leave your 'level' of skill up to you -- in as much as the more you train the better you get."
"Consumate" martial arts will always involve the much ridiculed forms/Kata, patterns/one-steps, and psychological aspects too. The program should always be at least 4 years long before you are considered fit enough to learn the "real fighting"...
In other words, if you have played karate for 4 years and got a black belt, you still are not a "real fighter" in the martial arts sense of that phrase... that's only the beginning.
I say this, because in Krav Maga they don't have a consumate system, there is no concept of this sort of thinking.
My opinion is probably obvious, I think KravMaga is basic-training hand-to-hand drills with longer hours."
Remember Combatives ;Krav Maga, Hisardut,Kapak, Systema and whatever other comabtive system you can come up with were designed to train large groups of men who may have had no fightning expereince into effectvie fighters in a short time. As such they teach simple dirty fighting techniques with a heavy amount spent on learning to absorb blows (i.e. pain).