KOPASSUS

[tanglimara]

I am doing some research on the Indonesian
SF unist,especially the Kopassus.Is there anyone out there who has some experiance dealing with them or knows a book on them ?

I am interested to know your impression on them and your evaluation of their combat skills.I know they are a dirty word right now in human right circles but let's look purely on the military aspect.

Thanks.

[Samuel]

Okay,let's look at the military aspect.
They have a lot of experience with torturing and raping East-Timorese and Moluccan women.
They know how to train militias that terrorize the East-Timorese and Moluccan people and kill innoccent people.
They are good snipers,they can shoot a child's head off at 700m. like they are doing right now in the Moluccan islands.
They have the strategy and tactics to massmurder the Moluccan people without the international community knowing about it.
If you want to know more about the capabilities of the Kopassus and other indonesian units go to this site. www.angelfire.com/rock/hotburrito/index.html (http://www.angelfire.com/rock/hotburrito/index.html)

[Mike]

Was Indonesia a Netherland colony? Is the Dutch Armed Forces committed the same crimes you're accused the Kopassus of?

[Samuel]

Indonesia used to be a dutch colony untill the Japs the came.After the Japs were defeated the dutch came back.Most of the people of Indonesia were glad the dutch were back.But there was a army of Javanese who had collaborated with and were trained and armed by the Japs.They would fight against the dutch and terrorize the people of indonesia.
Because of political pressure from the U.S. and U.K. the dutch gave Indonesia their independence in the form of the U.S. of Indonesia,so that the various people of indonesia could rule their own land,Maluku for the moluccans,Jawa for the javanese and so on.But Jawa didn't want that,so they eliminated all the states and made it one country under the rule of Jawa.The Moluccans fought back,there was a war on the main island of Maluku,Ambon,for a year and an guerrilla-war on the other islands for 13 years.The moluccans eventually lost.
I hope this answers your first Q.

Like every other colonist the dutch took Indonesia by force,in the 17th century.
But that's a long,long story.
After the Japs were defeated,the newly found dutch SF did a lot of killing under the leadership of Captain Westerling,also a few warcrimes.But that was against the collaborators that terrorized Indonesia.

Did you go to the site i linked

[Samuel]

SHIT
Did you go to the site i linked in my other comment?If not,check it out and give me your oppinion.
You can help to end the massmurder of the Moluccan people with signing the petition at www.maluku2000.org (http://www.maluku2000.org)

Talk to you later.
Samuel

[tanglimara]

Dear Sam,

While I appreciate your stand and belief, please do keep politics out of this forum.I am no friend of Kopassus or the Indons but this is a SF forum.There are numerous other forums where you could highlight your case and get support.

[Samuel]

Tanglimara,

I don't know about you,but were i'm from massmurder ain't no politics.

Samuel.

[sierra129]

Err..first of all...

Indonesians were not, repeat, NOT happy that the Dutch were back. For us, the dutch, the japs, both of them were the same. They were colonialists who came to Indonesia, took our country by force, treated our ppl. like they were sub-humans, and got rich by it. The only reason the Netherland is rich right now is because of their 350 years of exploitation, torture, and rape of Indonesians. Not to mention the various natural resources they got from the "Netherlands East Indies".

Second,

The people who tortured and raped the E.Timorese and Moluccans were not and are not Kopassus. They are mostly the animals from BAKIN or BAIS (Intelligence Coordination Beaureau or Strategic Intelligence Beaureau.) We in the Armed Forces did not do that. I admit they were individual cases, but every army in this world has the same problem. Remember the US Army Sergeant who raped that little girl in Bosnia, or the USMC servicemen who raped another girl in Okinawa? It's not confined to us. Even all those countries that claims to have 'first class armies' are vulnerable to such problems. I feel that it's really not fair to blame us, the grunts, for the works of animals who worked for the Soeharto regime. We were just doing our jobs, just like the rest of you. Do you think that we like torturing ppl? Well, would you like torturing ppl? No. You wouldn't. So why do you think we do? Our loyalty is to the State not the Gov't. The State= the ppl. If you care to look into some Indonesian Newspapers, there are some little advertised news about troops from the various army units clashing with other units. This is usually happen when we're fed up by the acts of those Intel Barbarians. Most of you who trained our 'SF', about 50-60% of your class were probably BAKIN/BAIS.

Third,

The massacre that happened under Capt. Raymond Westerling was not against collaborators that terrorized Indonesia. It was done on ppl who fought the Dutch to try to kick them out of our land. They were more freedom fighters than anything. Of course the Dutch called them 'terrorists', but then again, the Brits called American freedom fighters during the revolution 'terrorists'.
The Dutch occupational force in Indonesia did alot of attrocities. Please don't be too self-righteous.

Fourth,
I have no quarrel with Dutch ppl. Your generation right now never did anything to my country. We do not blame you for anything. Maybe we blame your ancestors, but as far as we concern, current Dutch ppl. and their children has nothing to do with the colonization. As a matter of fact, I have a lot of Dutch friends. Just be careful with what you say. The media always blame Kopassus for everything that went wrong in Indonesia. We're just soldiers, like you all are. We're trying to serve our nation, like you all are, but unlike you, we have the burden of getting blamed for what other units did. I hope none of you ever have to face this, because it sucks ass.

As for our training, our doctrine is mostly developed from U.S. and British SF doctrine. Special Forces Command has it's own aviation brigade, and has priority for Direct Support.
For one of our operations, do read up on the Woyla Airport Incident in Thailand.

[This message has been edited by sierra129 (edited 12-12-2000).]

[Samuel]

Sierra,
Okay,happy may be a strong word,but if the indonesian people didn't liked that the dutch were back,why did a lot of them decided to work for them again?

When the Japs were defeated Indonesia was under British control for a while.During that time Indonesia was a mess.Mainly because of the Japanese trained and armed militias,the Hei-Ho's i believe they were called and the younger sukarela's.
They caused murder and rampage al over Java,Celebes and Sumatra,against they're own people.Later they became the backbone of Sukarno's army.That's why the dutch called them terrorists.

Maybe for the common people who supported Sukarno it was a struggle for freedom,but it's common knowledge that for Sukarno it was a struggle for power.He wanted to control the whole of the Dutch-Indies.When he formed the RI there was resistance al over the country.

I can understand that it sucks big time when you're accussed of something that another unit did.I sincerely hope you weren't a part of that.But during the East-Timor crisis and more recently the conflict in the Moluccas,parts of the armed forces did commit a lot of serious human rights violations.A couple of months ago,there was a footage on the news of the military joining an attack by the Laskar Jihad against an christian village.There were also mortar cases found in an destroyed village with "PROPERTY OF TNI" written on it.

You say you're loyalty is to the people,not the goverment.How can you stay loyal to the people if your former leader(Suharto),was a dictator who ruled Indonesia for 35 years with an iron fist?All of Kopassus's missions were against the Indonesian people who wanted to be free of Suharto's oppresion.

[sierra129]

Samuel,

Heiho was not purely a milita. You were wrong in that respect. The Japs formed 2 Indonesian native-based militias: The PETA, and the Heiho. The PETA was formed c.1942s when the Japs were losing to the Allies in the Pacific war. The PETA's main function was to assist the Japanese army in fighting the allies. PETA was disbanded shortly after several well-trained units gave weapons and training to the freedom-fighters and rebelled against their japanese masters. The PETA rebellion was crushed because they were outnumbered and out gunned. Around 250 PETA troopers and officers were executed by the Japs. Heiho was mostly 'peace officers'. They were armed mostly with small caliber revolvers and bamboo sticks. They patrolled the villages and defend against wild animals and bandits (no, not freedom fighters, I mean robbers and other criminals). They were disbanded with the PETA when the two units worked together to form an underground movement against the Japs.

Of your question about Soekarno:

He may not be the best president we ever had. I don't think we ever had a good president. Soekarno was a womanizer, Soeharto was simply all that is evil in a human, Habibie was a bigger fool, and the current President now Abdurrahman Wahid is a blind idiot, a religious teacher trying to put a country back together. But at the time, Soekarno was all we had and we needed a leader. He led us out of colonialism, re-built my country and basically put us back in the world. He maybe fighting for power, but the effect of that is that our ppl is out of any foreign intervention and domination. About the resistance to his rule, they were not resistance against him per se, they were opportunists. Indonesia was a new country. Alot of ppl. thought they could gain something out of it by starting armed uprisings because the gov't was weak and they thought they could form their own countries.

Of your question about Kopassus and Kopassus operations. Kopassus in Indonesian is Komando Pasukan Khusus. Translates into Special Forces Command. This command is like the US JSOCOM. It comprises of the 5 groups of combat troops plus other attachments and 'detachments'. BAKIN/BAIS (the intelligence organ) had it's own armed 'detachment' inside the command. These animals (God rot them in hell) are also referred to as Kopassus. They wear the same uniform and also the Red Beret. You can sometime identify them by the markings on their uniform. On their left sleeve, under their qualification tabs, there is a rectangle with a number on it. The number (1, 2, 3, 4, or 5) shows a troop's group affiliation. These jerks wears the letter 'M' on their sleeve. This is short for the word 'Headquarters' in Indonesian. On their right sleeve, all SF forces wears the triangular patch showing the dagger and the word Kopassus on it. Their patch has the word 'Komando' on it.

About Molucca,

I need to explain the real situation to you. Western media, as always, like a good story better than a good truth most of the time. The truth is, there are not 'right' or 'wrong' parties in the Moluccas. The real situation is that there are two factions, the Christians from the North and the Muslims from the south. They have always been fighting. After the fall of Soeharto, they started attacking each other again, this time with more sophisticated weaponry. The armed forces, ordered by incompetent politicians in Jakarta, tried to get in the middle and stop the fighting. We really don't care if the two militas kill each other. They can shoot each other all they want for all we care. The problem is, they fight among the innocents. Our aim is to stop the deaths of innocent civilians that are trapped in the midst of the fighting. We (the SF comunity) had always advocated a more aggresive approach. We told the gov't that the best way is for the Army to launch a campaign against both militas, sieze their weapons, and stop the fighting with pure military power. After this is done, then reconcilliation can take place. But as politicians everywhere, our gov't unfortunately choose to sacrifice the lives of good soldiers and civilians because they do not want to look bad in the International world. This, as you may understand, is very frustating to us. There are alot of clashes in the Moluccas between Army units and BAKIN/BAIS units as well as between the Army and the Militias. If you observe really close, the Army stays in the capital of the Moluccas, Ambon. This is because of strict orders given to us by the gov't not to do anything that will 'offend' the militias. As a result, we are trapped in the city. Our order is to fire back only if fired upon. We can't even exploit our victories in the several urban combats in Ambon by pursuing the enemy. Now, I must admit that desertions do happen. Soldiers who feel the frustation often leaves their units and selling their weapons so that they can go home. This do happen and it's very embarrasing. But what can you expect? About the TNI mortar shell in the Christian village: Both militias have outside support in the Moluccas. The Christians got support from the Philipines and even Europe. The Muslims got support from Malaysia and even the Mid-East. They both, however, have sympathizers in Jakarta. And some of these sypathizers have power and can supply them with Army Issue weapons. You may ask," Well, why don't you arrest these sympathizers?" Well you can't exactly go and arrest ppl who are close to the centre of power. But next time you see the news about the Moluccas, ask yourself, why do western media only show a part of the whole cake? Why do they show a destroyed Christian village, but not a massacered Muslim village? This do happen. I told you above, it's the fault of both parties, instead of just one.

About loyalty:

Our loyalty is to the ppl. Our oath is to protect the ppl and that was what we were doing. Kopassus operations were against armed rebels. They are the ones who are terrorizing the ppl. If ppl. refuse to join their cause, they will resort to murder. The only mistake from our part is that after we clear an area of rebels, we always gave it away to more conventional forces. This is usually the time when BAKIN/BAIS move in. Ask around if you are ever in the area. During combat ops., in which the SF is the prominent force, the ppl. enjoy peace and protection. But once we leave, the torture and rape and kidnapping starts. Soeharto was never an SF commander. The professional soldiers in the SF never acknowledge him as our commander. If you remember a few years ago, there is an SF commanding General called Major General Prabowo Subiakto. He was married to one of Soeharto's daughters. Contrary to popular belief, Gen. Subiakto was not reesponsible for the attrocities that he was blamed for. He was the scapegoat. He became unpopular with the regime when he ordered that all BAKIN/BAIS troops in operation are to be placed under the SF theatre commander, not with their own seperate command like they're used to. He also gave directions to his troops that if any of us see them torturing civilians or commiting other attrocities, we are to shoot them right there. This leads to alot of incidents when SF troops killed these 'political' troops. The Soeharto regime used him as a Scapegoat to protect their face and their puppet general Wiranto from international prosecution. When Gen. Subiakto was still around, things still made sense. He protects us from political scrutinizing and from prosecution whenever we stop any attrocities done by the BAKIN/BAIS troops. Usually to the demise of the BAKIN/BAIS troopers.

I wish this answers alot of your questions. I will be glad to answer any other question you still have.

[Samuel]

Sierra,

You call them opportunists who wanted to form their own countries because the goverment was weak.I believe they were in their rights to form their own country.
When the dutch left,they held an conference with representatives of the different ethnic groups in Indonesia,the Round Table Conference.The agreement was that every ethnic group would have their own state and representatives of these states would form the goverment of the RIS.Sukarno signed this RTC-agreement and it was supported by the UN.

When it was clear that Sukarno had plans to make a unitarien republik with a cetralized goverment the other ethnic groups wanted to form their own countries because they feared javanese domination.History shows that they were right to fear Sukarno's RI.There are a lot of similarities between the Dutch/Japs rule and Sukarno/Suharto rule:
*they all toke Indonesia by force.
*they all oppressed the people of Indonesia.
*they all exploited the natural resources of Indonesia to get rich,especially the Dutch and Suharto.
To bad Sukarno formed the RI instead of going along with the RIS,Indonesia could have been the most beautifull country in the world.Dream on,dream on.

About Maluku

I always wondered why they didn't toke on a more aggressive approach against the militias.Especially against the Laskar Jihad.
I know they raided their trainingcamp at Bogor(?)back in march/april,but i believe that was more an political deed because the media found out about it,than a real attempt to break them.The Kompassus is highly capable and has a lot of experience with dealing with rebels,like the FANTIL.Why don't they use them to their full potential?
Take out their leadership and disarm them with force.

I am part Moluccan,from my father side my mother's Dutch,so i don't only get my news from the media but also from my family in Ambon and Saparua.And i sometimes go to the sites of The Jakarta Post,Tempo,Indonesian Observer,Kompas and Antara.So i know what happens in the Moluccas,especially Ambon.

Between januari 1999 and februari this year there were no right or wrong parties.Both the christian Moluccans and the Butonese,Buginese and the Makassarese are to blame.I asked my family during this time what the fuck they were fihgting for.They said they were just fed up with the immigrants who acted like they owned the place.In march the fihgting stopped and muslims were helping christians rebuilding their churches and christians were helping the muslims rebuilding the mosques.

But then the Lakar Jihad arrived in may.They clearly have some important sympathizers in Jakarta.Wahid announced that the Laskar Jihad would be stopped by the Navy from reaching the Moluccas,but that never happened and their "confiscated"weapons were stolen back.Yeah right.Like it's possible for unarmed men to sneak past armed guards and steal 6 shipping containers full of automatic weapons and munition.

It's a fact that some army-units in Ambon are supporting the Laskar Jihad.They were in one way or another involved in the destructions of several christian villages,such as Waai,Hatiwe Besar,Kesui and Suli.Only the marines remain 100% neutral.Even Made Yase confirmed that some units were backing up the Jihad.

But the one to blame for the recent riots are the politicians.When the Laskar Jihad held their rally in Jakarta,Amin Rais was there to speak to the crowd,calling for a holy war.
And when they were on their way to the Moluccas,the Minster of Transport(forgot his name)said that they couldn't stop the Jihad from entering the moluccas because it was their right to go there.It didn't matter that they've declared war on the chritians or that they were armed.And Governor Latuconsina is to weak and affraid to do anything.He only complains but doesn't take actions.

I got a couple of questions for you.

In a interview with SuratKabar,Air Vice Marshall Usodo said that Sudarto will probably be replaced by Wirahadikusumah because he couldn't sever his ties with the Cedana family and bowed down for the anti-reform group within the military.
Who are the Cedana family?

It's been said that the military in general is under equipped,undermotivated and poorly trained.Are there plans being made to restore the military?

From what i could understand there was some controversy when the Pattimura Command was re-activated.Why and what's the history of this command?

What's going to happen with the Dwi Fungsi?Will the military still have a say in politics in the future?

There was a small article in a dutch newspaper about Osama Bin Laden having connections with muslim extremist groups in Indonesia.Do you know more about this?

Sorry that my post is so long,but if it's about Indonesia i can talk all day long.

Talk to you later,
Samuel.

[jinX]

Hey guys, just wanted to jump in and thank you for keeping it civil and informative. There has been a lot of flaming on all the boards recently, and it was great to come here and see a real discussion taking place. Plus, I lived in Indonesia many years ago (I was only 8 years old at the time), and it's nice to keep up on politics from people who really seem to understand it. I wish I could still speak Indonesian, but I don't even remember how to say hello anymore. About the only thing I can remember to this day is:

Anjing besar. There were lots of those up in the mountains in Lembang, where I lived. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

------------------
"I am not a stormtrooper, I am a soldier of my country."

"I am not a terrorist, I am a freedom fighter."

[sierra129]

Samuel,

Ok. Let me answer your questions and make some clarifications:

1. The weapons were not 'confiscated'. They were merely taken from the militias infront of TV cameras and then given back at the end of the day. I know this for a fact.

2.I'm so terribly sorry about #1, but I'm only a Sergeant, equvalent to a US E-5, I don't have any power nor influence to stop this as much as I want to. Hell, not even our officers can do much. Our group colonels tried already, but since we're SF, we're kinda...alienated by the rest of the Army. The new SF commanding general is a prick.

3. About what Wahid said. Never, repeat, NEVER take that blind fool for his word. His comments and supposed 'orders' for the Army/Navy/Air Force to do something about the Laskar Jihad, or other militias are only talk. No more than that.

4. True, the Marines remain 100% neutral. That is because the Indonesian Marine corps is essentially a bigger SF unit. Most of them, like us in the SF, deem ourselves professionals. The true situation is that there are only 4 neutral parties in the Armed forces. Army: Kopassus (the SF, not BAKIN/BAIS units), and our Raiders (para-Kostrad). The whole Navy, and the Air Force.

5. Well, the Army units that supported the Laskar Jihad is not 'units' per se. Yes, whole battalions of new recruit troops have deserted. Many of them, depending on their faiths, go to either the Muslim or the Christian militias. With them they bring their weapons. Many of them, like I said before, just simply sold their issue rifles and use the money to go home.

6. The Cendana family is Soeharto's family. They used to live in a street called Cendana in Jakarta. Therefore they're referred to as the Cendana family. Soeharto and his cronies still has alot of power in Indonesia. Unfortunately, they're also rich. They still have alot of people in the Army. Mostly older field grade officers. The new generation of General officers are trying to reform the Army. But they meet alot of opposition from the older generation Generals.

7. Yes, the Army, hell the whole Armed Forces in General is quite under equipped. But spirits are high, at least among recruits who hadn't yet know of the stupidity of the politicians. About equiptment, well we don't have all that much money to get equiptment. The only units that can get anything that it requests are those under the SF command. Training is actually now pretty good. We may not have all that much equipment, but we try to keep the training standard pretty high.

7. Pattimura Command was an organic military command of Maluku area. All the units under that command was 'organic' meaning staffed and soldiered by Moluccans. It was disbanded several years ago due to accusations of corruption and desetion. It consisted of 2 Infantry Division, 1 Armour, plus Artillery and it's own aviation brigade. I heard the similar rumor , right now Maluku is under Cendrawasih, from Irian Jaya.

8. Dwi Fungsi is slowly being abolished. I'm very happy with this. No military should be able to have a vote in any political matters. But as I said, there are still alot of pro-soeharto officers in the Army. So expect to see it fully abolished in about 8 years.

9. Osama bin Laden may very well have some connection with Indonesian militias. I told u before the Laskar Jihad has help from the Mid. East. I know for a fact that they were receiving automatic weapons from Libya and Yemen through Malaysia. The Christian militias got weapons shipment from Europe.

I hope this answers some of your questions. Don't hesitate to ask again if you still need info. I'll do my best to answer it.

Cheers