Eye Surgery in IDF

[Yohoshua]

Can someone go into a " Sayeret " if they have had eye surgery ( LASIK ), or glasses ?
And does the Shayetet allow people to try out if they have had Eye Surgery ?

Toda!

[Leon]

it depends of what sayeret you want to go, i think you can go to golani and givati with glases or after eye sergery,but again,about SM and S-13 and Shaldag and 669 i think that you can't..

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Leon

[GrimReaper]

No for the eye surgery, eye surgery is considered even worse then glasses in all branches due to the glare and loss of night sight caused by Lasik, don't do it if you'r about to be drafted in less then 6 monthes. as to glasses as long as you have less then -/+2 on you glasses (out of 6/6) you can get into anything including airforce more then that will stop you from getting into most of the top units, but it still depends on your military profile, if you have glasses but have 97 in your profile you won't have a problem.

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GrimReaper

[Leon]

GrimReaper,that is BULLSHIT !!!!!!!!!!
first of all,if you don't have 6/6 eyes you can't get to airforce or SF unit!!!!!
and what do you mean "if you have glases but have 97 profile"?!?!?!?
if you have not 6/6 eyes,you won't have 97 profile!!!!!
to any SF unit or airforce,you must have 82+ profile WITHOUT "seifim poslim"!!!
"seifim poslim" are astma,not 6/6 eyes, problems fith hearing,flat feet,and something else but i can't remember what.
if you want to know more and stop living in illusions,go to www.iaf.org.il (http://www.iaf.org.il) and read about the demands to "kurs tayis" it's the cours to become a pilot,and the demands to there are the demands to any SF unit too.

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Leon

[Yohoshua]

Thankyou very much, if you have any more info, please e-mail me at shooto7@hotmail.com! I appreciate any info!

Toda!

[Yossi]

I'm sorry Leon but actually grim ripper was correct one most counts. First, you can't get 97 profile and have problems with eyes and legs as long as they are minor ones. Second, there are two categories of units: matkal level units and regular units. For matkal level units (shaldag, 669, sm, Yael) expect for s'13 if you are under 2+/2- you can get in. for s'13 you must have perfect 6/6. In Regular units (sayeret golany, nahal, etc.) eyes are non-issue. Also regarding flight school if you don't have 6/6 you can still become a helicopter pilot.

I don't know about eye surgery.

Yossi

[Yohoshua]

Yossi, thankyou very very very much!
from your friend yohoshua!

TODA!

[WS-G]

A Cheyl ha-Avir pilot without 6/6 uncorrected, eh? Mitzuyan!

Could you post any specifics regarding uncorrected visual acuity and refraction limits for helicopter pilots? Also, any concessions for olim with prior military service and civilian flight training in their countries of origin (e.g.: going straight to an operational training unit rather than an ab initio flight school)? Age limits?



[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 04-28-2000).]

[GrimReaper]

I only got home today and read both leon's and yossy's replys. I'm glad yossi's post backs me up but I'm sorry leon used the word "bullshit" to remark on my post.

Anyway I'd like to sum it up better, since I mixed two terms which seems to have caused me to be misunderstood.

6/6 is a term to describe perfect vision based on schneller chard, which is a chart with letters or numbers that a person with normal eyesight can read at 6 meters. In countries who use feet it is called 20/20 Vision(as in 20 feet)
Once a person has a need for glasses the schneller chart is quit pointless in describing one's eyesight, although you can say someone has an eyesight of 6/60 it's not accurate.
what is used is the term diopters, which is the focal strength of one's glasses.
And now to my point, you CAN have glasses and other medical problem and have a profile of 97 it's the severity of them which matters.
Glasses with a diopter strength of between -2 and +2 (when 0 is perfect eyesight) will let you in into almost anything INCLUDING the airforce.
Yossi was right about being an helicopter pilot, but not just that, you can also be a navigator (and most planes in israel have one) And I know of at least one cargo plane pilot with glasses. By the way I know a Kurnas 2000 pilot with glasses,although in his case he got them after flight school but they let him stay on.
As to combat units, you can't get into the S'13 with glasses due to the diving, but anything else is fair game, and depends on your profile, seifim, dapar and kaba.

I have a friend in my platoon with glasses and the only time he puts them on is when we do long range target shooting with Iron s or elbit sights that's because he's within the
-/+2 range and he gets around fine without them.
btw I have glasses too (though I wear them all the time).

P.S.
William , as to your case I have never heard about concessions being made for olim, and although your prior flight training will help in flight school, NO ONE skips stages in training
you'll need to have a profile of 82 and up, good kaba and dapar,no seifim poslim and last but not least and I suspect the crucial point for olim hadashim you must be under 23.

P.P.S
Dapar - dirug psicotechni rishoni : this is the rating from the tests you do on your intial call ups, this rates (though not accurately) intelligence.

Kaba- Kvutzat eichut: this is a sum of all your info. physical mentel,social standing and history ,and is one of the most important ratings.

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GrimReaper



[This message has been edited by GrimReaper (edited 04-28-2000).]

[WS-G]

Leon:

No 97 profile "without 6/6 eyes"? Would you mind being more specific, please? Do you mean "not 6/6" as in "not 6/6 uncorrected" or as in "not correctable to 6/6"? There is a vast difference between the two. According to a former Cheyl ha-Avir flight surgeon who occasionally attended my synagogue in Houston, the IDF's own reseach showed that we Jews have the highest incidence of myopia (near-sightedness) out of any ethnic group on the planet (74%). Given this fact alone, I find it rather difficult to believe that the IDF would relegate so many otherwise highly fit, highly qualified individuals to "rear echelon" status simply because of a need for glasses. The idea reeks of the same logic that Heinrich Himmler applied to the selection standards for the SS Leibstandarte regiment: they actually rejected applicants for having a single dental filling!

Here in the US, a Physical Category 1 profile (equivalent to the IDF's 97 profile) simply requires that one's vision be correctable to 20/20 (6/6) in both eyes. Not correctable to 20/20, then no Cat. 1 profile. Presumably the IDF's system would work in a similar way?

GrimReaper:

As I mentioned, the Physical Profile system we use in the US military is quite different from that used by the IDF. Ours is called "PULHES", an acronym representing six general systems of the body, with the "E" denoting "Eyes". A single-digit Category is assigned under each letter, from 1 (denoting "no impairments") to 4 ("unfit"). In the case of vision, the US miltary assigns a Category of 1 to all individuals who have vision in both eyes, whose visual acuity is correctable to 20/20 or better in each eye separately, have normal color perception and have normal fields of vision. I was classified PULHES 111111.

Here in the US, we do measure one's visual acuity without correction as well as with correction. 6/6 (which we write as 20/20 over here --- feet rather than metres) , BTW, is not "perfect", but merely what is considered "normal".

With all refractive errors eliminated...

85-90% of the population will generally test at 20/20...

about 5% will test at a best corrected visual acuity of 20/25 to 20/30...

another 5% will test better than 20/20.

Also, due to reduced retinal sensitivity (fewer functional cones, etc.), it is possible for someone to have zero refractive error, yet have visual acuity worse than 20/20. There are plenty of emmetropes around with only 20/40 to 20/60 visual acuity, whose reduced visual acuity is not correctable.

Myself as an example...

I test at 20/12 (6/4) with glasses, and better than 20/10 (6/3) with contact lenses, yet I have an uncorrected DVA of 20/200 (6/60) bilaterally.

My refraction is:

OD (left eye) -6.75 spherical -1.00 cylindrical
OS (right eye) -5.25 spherical -0.50 cylindrical.

This denotes myopia bordering between what is generally considered "moderate" (-3.00 to -6.00 dioptres) and "high" (-6.00 to -12.00 dioptres), combined with minor astigmatism. Without correction, most individuals with my refraction have much worse vision than myself, typically on the order of 20/400 (6/120) to 20/800 (6/240). With proper correction however, my vision is superior to that of more than 99% of the population. My eyesight has never stopped me from functioning as a member of a US Army Long-Range Reconnaissance Patrol (LRRP) team, nor holding a Class 1 medical certificate from the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), nor has it barred me from being medically cleared for police training.


"Refractive error" is merely a description of the lens configuration and focal length required to achieve emmetropia (completely in-focus); it is possible for individuals with similar refractive errors to have differing uncorrected visual acuities. I agree partially that uncorrected VA is meaningless, but this is chiefly due to the inaccuracy of the Snellen (letters) chart at acuities of less than 20/100 (6/30). The Landolt Rings test is far more accurate.

In either case, we aviators with corrected vision tend to sneer at the concept of having an uncorrected vision requirement at all, whether VA, refraction or both, for two reasons: (1) we fly with our glasses on (with my SPH-4 helmet on and visor down, I can assure you that it's physically impossible for my glasses to go anywhere), and (2) as long as one's visual acuity is correctable to normal, it makes no difference whether one needs glasses.


BTW... my current age is 36, though I can certainly pass for 23 (I'm the type who has no fat on him at all, can chin himself 30+ times, then go out and run forever!). Rather likely my best bet professionally would be to forget aliyah? While I do respect the IDF's proven record, I have no desire to serve in a force where my best skills would be wasted. Maybe when I get around to having a son, he can make aliyah, but I have no plans for trading a police helicopter just to work in a supply room.

[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 04-28-2000).]

[GrimReaper]

WILLIAM

Just because you over the age limit for the air force doesn't mean you cant do other things in the army. With your training I'm sure you'll be able to do other things that fit you in the infantry branches of the IDF. And by the way if you have flight training you can always try to get into the airforce anyway, although it's a very, very small chance it may succeed. you can send a letter about your case to them.

As to glasses I have -4.00 in both eyes and cylindric factor of 0.75 and 0.65 and have no problem in what I do in an infantry branch of the idf. Although I wanted to be a pilot I didn't try out, but I'm very happy in what I do, I've grown to love Infantry and Armored warfare more then Aircraft and aerial warfare.
And by the way don't use job options as the only reason preventing you from coming here, there are plenty of other reasons to come to Israel .

I would have recommended for you to talk with someone in an israeli embassy or make a visit here and check you case with the MoD, but since your in the US army It may be a bit immoral or maybe illegal to do this while you'r still in the service.
I hope you make aliyha anyway :-)

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GrimReaper

[This message has been edited by GrimReaper (edited 04-29-2000).]

[Yossi]

William

I think we got a little carried away with all the eye-medical terms here…
What I and I guess that grim ripper was referring too was uncorrected eyesight. Under 2+/2- for all MATKAL level units and 6/6 for s’13.

If you are 36 you can forget about the flight school. Further more because you were in government service you have a major security problem. There was an American guy, a F14 navy pilot about your age, who came to Israel few years ago, and the idf didn’t even let him see an airplane.

Also, for the same reason (opsec), you can forget about any regular SF unit. At best you will be in reserve SF but I seriously doubt it. There was a case of an American guy who served in the US STS and later in Las-Vegas SWAT. He wanted to be in 669 but because of opsec and age he only got into 669 reserve. However, like he did you can try for the civic SF units which are much less opsec concern.

To sum, if I were you I’d stay in the US, the same place all of us like to be in...

Btw, if you read Hebrew here’s the story on the STS guy:
http://www.iaf.org.il/iaf/doa_iis.dll/Serve/item/Hebrew/1.1.6.3.13.2.6.html

Yossi

[WS-G]

Thanks for the article, Yossi. Quite informative, even though I did have to look up a number of words in the dictionary!

Also, thanks for the clarification with regard to IDF refraction standards.

As far as flying for the police rather than the military, I have to agree that there are probably far more opportunities here in the US than in all other nations combined. With most law enforcement agencies here, age and vision are not a great difficulty. Also, prospective law enforcement pilots are expected to hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate before applying; this certificate is almost always acquired at one's own expense.



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ex Co. G (-)(Abn/Rgr), 143d INF(LRRP), TXARNG 1981-1985
ex 433MAW (AFRES), 1985-1991
FAA-certificated pilot and Advanced Ground Instructor

[G]

Hi William

Had a very close friend who was in S.African Special Forces, then made aliyah, and into Israeli SF (I won`t go into which unit) at age 28.

Became one of few professional soldiers in the IDF, instructed CT, and ended up in charge of Spec-ops in a particular area. Got out at age 36.

A few lessons - although he did well in all his tests, and in his 'gibbush', he was posted to artillery. He screamed and shouted and wouldn`t give in, and eventually was allowed into the unit that he subsequently spent years with.

You could try this approach, but I really think that at 36, you`d be considered too old. Remember you`d be starting out with 18 yr olds! My friend felt like a grandpa, at age 28.

Good Luck......

G

[Yohoshua]

If some one has laser surgery, does it prohibit them from entering a sayeret, or shayetet! Plus if it does, can someone go into a sayeret with -4.00 eyesight! And if so do they make the person wear goggles or contacts or are glasses alright! If I get eye surgery does it affect my overall profile! And can someone get 97% with glasses! Toda,!
from shooto7@hotmail.com

Thankyou!

[abraham]

yehoshua can you read hebrew? i actually read a link adressing your question with all the rules and beaurocracy explained. if you can i would bother searching it out and then i could pm it to you. its just that i read it a few months ago.

[ex-Squaddie]

Interesting thread, old though - dated back in 2000 - and things have moved on since.

In the UK I know from personal experience that 'The Queen' will put up for soft contacts if you are doing close protection work.

A personal account of eye surgery:

I considered surgery about 4 years back and looked into it in detail, I found out who the experts in the field were and read their published papers regarding latest technology and advances in performing surgery.

I found that one of the leading lights is a Captain at San Diego Naval Hospital, a former fighter jockey. He has been researching methods of eye surgery for more than 10 years now. His theory was that there is so much wasted talent out there when service guys hit their 40's and the eye's naturally start to deteriorate so why not fix the problem rather than wasting the experience.

He moved through various procedures and has now settled on the new technology which is called Wavefront. This uses a radar system to monitor the eye during surgery to detect even a slight flicker which then stops the micro laser. The technique is not a blanket bombing technique like some of the previous techniques rather it maps the eye first and then only corrects those parts of the eye that need correction - often giving better than 20/20 vision, ask Tiger Woods.

I read that the Captain (whose name I forget) was that happy with the procedure that he had authorised it for use on SEAL's and Navy fighter Jock's. So I waited until wavefront was available in the UK and had it done.

I have done some shit in my time, been shot at and done EOD but this really scared the shit out of me - someone messing with my eye's. The wife came back from parking the car and I still had not gone in, I also nearly walked out of the operating room.

You lay on the table take off your glasses and see the usual fuzz and blur, they anaesthetize your eye, clamp it open and bring the gizmo over. [start the clock here] It is pushed down onto your eyeball and you stare ahead at a tiny light, the keratome cuts the incision on the eyeball, the surgeon flips up the eye lens and fastens it back. They sight in the laser, it fires up and you hear a crackling noise which stops every so often because you involutarily move your eyeball. They then remove the gizmo and the surgeon wshes out your eye three or four times, he then replaces the lens flap [stop the clock, and about one minute has passed] Repeat for second eye.

I got up from the table and wiped away the saline, the surgeon said "Ok Mr Rolex, whats the time".............hey I can see my 'kin watch without glasses.
They were gonna put some medical protective things over the eyes for the trip home but I had taken some of my skydive goggles with me instead.

That night I watched TV without glasses, I saw the kids without glasses and read an article in the newspaper without glasses.

Two years later I am doing everything without glasses: driving; running; shooting; skydiving; swimming. My only problem is that sometimes I become a little sensitive to aircon so I put in some eyedrops which fixes the problem.

I can recomend it, but make sure its wavefront. Wavefront is less likely to destroy your night vision like Lasik does - I checked this out and after an initial three or four months of halo effect from light sources mine settled down to the same as it had been previously.