USMC PSD (err, HRE PSD that is)....

[SOTB]

Am I reading this right? Are they saying that they have placed the cart before the horse?

Link to article (http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/main5/C162ECD721EC62DD85256FC9002D3085?opendocument)
Twenty-six Marines were hand selected by Sgt. Maj. Carlton W. Kent, the Sergeant Major of I MEF. Approximately 75 percent are from the Marine Corps Reserve.

The reserves come from diverse civilian jobs such as accountants, contractors and policemen, with a large percentage of them coming from Chicago, Ariz. and Calif.
Some of the Marines even come from the inactive status. Corporal Robert P. Wetherbee, from Hoboken, N.J., an inactive ready reserve Marine was selected for the PSD team. Wetherbee, who is a construction contractor in his civilian job, spent four years active duty as an infantryman. “This was my last chance to be apart of something big like Operation Iraqi Freedom. During my four years of active duty, I was not involved in anything like this,” Wetherbee said.
When they get back to the U.S. most of these Marines will have the opportunity to go to the U.S. Army’s PSD school.

[RAT]

Saw them train when I was out with I SOTG when I got back from the Box the 2nd time. I gave them my .02 along with some others. Lessons learned stuff. It was a good powwow. Some how I bet that the PSD stuff goes to SOTG and not the Army's PSD school.

RAT OUT!!!

[shark11]

Some units have PSD's that don't get any specific training, at least these have been promised some when they get back, hopefully its not too late

[SOTB]

Some units have PSD's that don't get any specific training, at least these have been promised some when they get back, hopefully its not too lateIf they had not gotten any training AND/or experience, I'mm gonna go with it is incredibly dumbass to deploy them in that capacity. I worked with some guys going to work in the same AO for the same job for 18th Airborne Corps and 98% of their time was being spent on the range. Wrong place for that gig....

[Silverbullet]

If they had not gotten any training AND/or experience, I'mm gonna go with it is incredibly dumbass to deploy them in that capacity. I worked with some guys going to work in the same AO for the same job for 18th Airborne Corps and 98% of their time was being spent on the range. Wrong place for that gig....


There are USMC units recieving appropiate PSD training. I've set a few of them up with good trainers. They've been used. This isn't a new thing to the Corps. 1st Force had an ongoing mission throughout the late 90's.

Units need to ensure they are recieiving instrcution from people who have actually been in country and conducted PSD while there .

I can't stress the last sentence enough. I still go back to the gate guard who is touting HRE PSD experience. Same guy just took his first formal driivng course 5 months ago. There are many jokers out there selling services to the military who don't have the quals or experience. The conventional military does not vet very well.

[0802]

Having worked in MFR for a while, here is my take on the reserves that end up in units like this.

Through the reserve version of Marine Online, IRR and SMCR reservist can volunteer for service overseas. When they volunteer in most cases there isn't a billet for them already so they go to Iraq and it becomes a pick up game often you have guys sometimes forming units of out whole cloth and then justifying it by creating a mission.

You get some weird things like this out of MFR. Its not unusual for a Majors or GySgts who just show up without knowing what they are suppose to do or in many cases they are not even MOS qualified to be in the billets they are put into. If you are lucky they may have attended the 2 week reserve version of a school, but in most cases the qualifier for them is 1) they went through entry level training at one time 2) they are willing to attend.

[shark11]

I had some reserve time in between active duty. I was offered some PSD type work a few times based on the fact that I was an 0311 and working as a civilian LEO. I guess some of these PSD details from MARFORES might have some LEO background which helps with PSD stuff. I guess they will have to rely on some great OJT.

[SOTB]

I guess some of these PSD details from MARFORES might have some LEO background which helps with PSD stuff.Not trying to screw with you, but why would it?I guess they will have to rely on some great OJT.Agreed. And the sandbox is NOT the best place to learn. Bad habits and badguys are in abundance....

[shark11]

Of course this depends on the type of LEO agency. The best thing a well trained LEO brings to a PSD mission is some good pistol skills if he/she was trained well. Lots of the more progressive agencies are doing a good job of retraining combat pistol shooting, the one I worked for did a good job of this and spent alot of money on it.

Civiliain LEO agencies also do some protective work. I was never directly involved but plenty of guys I worked with augmented the Secret Service etc when certain dignitaries came to town. I also know of serveral civilian LEO PSD courses, Florida SWAT Association runs a good one.

SLTWTR1, you are in a unique position to comment on this.

[SOTB]

The best thing a well trained LEO brings to a PSD mission is some good pistol skills if he/she was trained well. Lots of the more progressive agencies are doing a good job of retraining combat pistol shooting, the one I worked for did a good job of this and spent alot of money on it.Ahh, OK, range skills. Nothing wrong with it at all, but not really geared to PSD (IMO). What we often forget is that PSD is there to make the client's day as BORING as possible. Firefights are anything but boring.Civiliain LEO agencies also do some protective work. I was never directly involved but plenty of guys I worked with augmented the Secret Service etc when certain dignitaries came to town. I also know of serveral civilian LEO PSD courses, Florida SWAT Association runs a good one.Cool. I know of a couple of LEO-types that were working PSD, but not many. The key to good PSD work (IMO) lies with all the preparation, versus the actual on-the-ground stuff (and certainly ore than the shooting stuff). A good advance agent/team can make everyone's life a whole lot more relaxed (as well as greatly diminish the chances of the client having a non-boring day)....

[Silverbullet]

[QUOTE=shark11]Of course this depends on the type of LEO agency. The best thing a well trained LEO brings to a PSD mission is some good pistol skills if he/she was trained well. Lots of the more progressive agencies are doing a good job of retraining combat pistol shooting, the one I worked for did a good job of this and spent alot of money on it.QUOTE]

If you're reaching for your pistol in the box it means things have gone from bad to worse and your rifle is inoperable, there are no rifles lying around and you're in very close contact and need to shoot someone to save your life, the clients or a teammates. You then find an operable rifle and carry on.

Good pistol shots fall off the trees in Iraq. Being skilled at TTP's, conducting rehearsals and proper planning. Those are the essentials.

[Xdeth]

Every time I see a Gen Officer with his detail at the PX I ask myself, what would Chesty do? ;)

[Silverbullet]

Every time I see a Gen Officer with his detail at the PX I ask myself, what would Chesty do? ;)

We're going to have to change you CS to Threadkiller.... :)

[EchoFiveMike]

I know a few guys on the PSD that the article writes about, they were recruited for their LE experience, that's about it. Good solid Marines, but I have no idea what further training they got. That said, IME, Marine PSD work is essentially road warrior duty. Driving the CO about the AO and taking IED hits. It's freaking CAAT team stuff. My $.02 is that these Marines(and their M1114 uparmoured HUM-V's which they ALL have in abundance) could be much better employed out killing savages in the usual infantry CAAT fashion. The protected officer presumably has a sidearm and/or rifle and knows how to use it, WTF makes them so special so as to suck up highly needed resources?

Sorry for the rant, I'm sitting at BIAP after 7 monthes living in a hovel driving about in glorified fruit trucks and the sheer abundance of wasted resources here makes me sick. The fucking guys who clean the shitters drive about in fucking up-armors for the love of Christ! I saw no less than 12 full bird colonels at lunch today. I have seen exactly two the previous 6 monthes. Where's that waste, fraud and abuse number? S/F...Ken M

[Silverbullet]

I know a few guys on the PSD that the article writes about, they were recruited for their LE experience, that's about it. Good solid Marines, but I have no idea what further training they got. That said, IME, Marine PSD work is essentially road warrior duty. Driving the CO about the AO and taking IED hits. It's freaking CAAT team stuff. My $.02 is that these Marines(and their M1114 uparmoured HUM-V's which they ALL have in abundance) could be much better employed out killing savages in the usual infantry CAAT fashion. The protected officer presumably has a sidearm and/or rifle and knows how to use it, WTF makes them so special so as to suck up highly needed resources?

Sorry for the rant, I'm sitting at BIAP after 7 monthes living in a hovel driving about in glorified fruit trucks and the sheer abundance of wasted resources here makes me sick. The fucking guys who clean the shitters drive about in fucking up-armors for the love of Christ! I saw no less than 12 full bird colonels at lunch today. I have seen exactly two the previous 6 monthes. Where's that waste, fraud and abuse number? S/F...Ken M

Mike, I hear you. The PSd elements were never put together or meant for use by every to, dick and harry. This is a misuse and abuse of people and assets.

[BigNickT]

I don't htink what you're experiencing is anything new. In Somalia there were company grade officers leading squad sized patrols. In Gulf War 1 there were oficers serving as vehicle drivers and cowswains in order to get closer to the action. Some were just running to the sound of the guns as you would expect. Some were trying to get their tickets punched. If you're seeing a dozen bird colonels where there once were none I'd say that they've determined that the situation is such that they can now show up and get the "I was there" credit without worrying too much about getting shot full of holes. On the other hand it makes a certain amount of sense to rotate as many Marines through a "combat tour" as possilble. It's valuable experience.

When I was still on AD a buddy of mine made the observation that in WWII the Marine Corps had around 20 generals. That was with 6 Marine Divisions and 4 Airwings. Now with less than 3 of each there are over 120 generals. Consequently there are more Colonels, and on down the line.

I also don't see why a general needs some special swat team for protection. As I recall a Division Commander already has a designated security element. According to the TO&E that's what the Division Band is tasked with when they weren't marching around tooting on their horns.

Tax out

[EchoFiveMike]

BigNick, we're at BIAP awaiting a flight home. It's Camp Cupcake. The power that be give us a week here so we can fatten up, so we don't go home to our families looking like concentration camp survivors. Reservist's families will take no shit from the command structure and will call their congressman at the drop of a hat, which cuts both ways.

Where we were when we were actually working was FOB St Mike's, which is the corner of RTE Tampa and Irish/Jackson. All companies were 100% commited 100% of the time, fully tapped out. We closed the chow hall when we conducted BN level operations so we could put the cooks on camp guard. The guys on guard on Rte Tampa lived under a bridge in sleeping bags all winter long. And no one really bothered giving a shit when we were out there, except when we got three Marines KIA by an IED. That kind of shit.

So going from that to BIAP is like going from a van down by the river to living in the presidential suite at the Hilton. And these guys here get the same "combat" pay as we did. It's bullshit, but that's just how it always is(I'm told) There seems to be two different worlds here. Grunt land, where you live like shit and work hard to make life suck more, and then BIAP/Fallujah/Blue Diamond/TQ/etc where you can't even tell there's a war. It's no wonder that this war is so fucking expensive, we've got MF's that think it perfectly OK that they live like kings on Uncle Sam's nickel. I'm all for not maknig life suck when you don't need to, but a little austerity would go a long way here. I mean lobster/crablegs twice a week? The guys who sit there and guard the motor pool in M1114's with a react force of a tank platoon? Jesus H Christ, how about a little reallocation of resources! Seems to me that it's the same thing with this PSD stuff, everybody needs to feel important, to the detriment of the war effort. S/F...Ken M

[szymon75]

I have to agree with Ken's last post- He and I were in the same Bn and I cannot beleive the unbridled piggery that is BIAP. These people are so disconnected from the harsh realities that our warriors in all the services experience outside of the wire as the most difficult decisions they make are the choice between a strawberry smoothie and a chocolate shake.

I could not get a replacement -148 (it was atached to my plt sgt when he absorbed a 60mm) because none were available; I lost a one of my HMMVs when the driveshafts turned into liquid (what tends to happen when you add 5K lbs of armor to a vic that never was meant to hold the load) and the priviledged classes of the super FOBs all have the greatest vics/crew serves and comm suites.

Oh, back to PSD- they all did have outstanding equipment- M4s, powered comms w/all the bells and whistles, newer Up armors, ECM in the vics.

And my men spent far more time in Indian country in our whistling beer cans 'o death, successfully closing with, locating and destroying the enemy with the dilapidated equipment we had. It's what Marines do best.
Special training for the PSDs? How about special training for every fucking Marine coming to this warzone to be a better hunter/killer.

Just had to get that off my chest.

-Semper Fi

-Ski

[Xdeth]

No matter how little or much your given there is always more you need, in the case of the Marine Corps it's always an extreme. One day it will be a source of pride for you although there is really no excuse for it.


Your handle makes me think of Suzy's mom, she was hot too.


So ahhh, I've heard this rumor of armored Hummers being left behind in Kuwait for cleaning and repairs, any truth to this or ideas what the approx location of them is :D, seriously.

[SOTB]

Special training for the PSDs? How about special training for every fucking Marine coming to this warzone to be a better hunter/killer.

Just had to get that off my chest.

-Semper Fi

-SkiDamn straight dude. And kick the friggin pogues out of the Corps altogether. THAT should take care of about 50% of the extra brass running around as well....

[BigNickT]

Ken,

Roger that. My only real point was that you're not experiencing anything new. That kind of shit has been going on as long as military forces have existed. We just expect better from Marines and are more disappointed when they act like dipshits.

I was recently re-reading Bill Mauldin's WWII book "Up Front". He talks about the rear echelon quite a bit. Especially how whenever they got rotated off the line the grunts would jump at the chance to get cleaned up and tried to keep squared away, while the REMFs would be going around unshaven and in fucked up uniforms to try and look salty. I'll bet the same shit happened in the Roman Legions.

There's also and element of "me first". You don't expect to see it in Officers or NCO's but it happens. I remember one particularly miserable night at Pickle Meadows when I told another NCO that he needed to get out of the rack and see to his men. His reaction was "Fuck'em". That's a direct quote. And this was a guy that everybody thought was gonna be the SgtMaj of the Marine Corps one day. When the chips were down he looked first to take care of himself. It happens.

Do what you gotta do. The way I see it is I've been in CONUS the whole time this war's been going on. They haven't started rationing anything yet. There's still dumbasses running around in their $30,000 hybrid cars, and filling the bars on Saturday night. You guys worry about the mission and taking care of your boys. Let us dirtbag civilians worry about whether or not it's too expensive.

Tax out

[Xdeth]

........They haven't started rationing anything yet. There's still dumbasses running around in their $30,000 hybrid cars, and filling the bars on Saturday night.


?

[BigNickT]

XDeth,

My point there is that until we really start feeling the finacial bind here at home the guys in the sandbox shouldn't have to worry about how much the war is costing.

Tax out

[Xdeth]

XDeth,

My point there is that until we really start feeling the finacial bind here at home the guys in the sandbox shouldn't have to worry about how much the war is costing.

Tax out


Yea, it's called a deficit, we won't feel it for a number of years, but I see your point now.

-C

[SOTB]

XDeth,

My point there is that until we really start feeling the finacial bind here at home the guys in the sandbox shouldn't have to worry about how much the war is costing.

Tax outTO the extent of the TOTAL COST, I agree. But NOT to the manner in which that money is spent.

Our people/culture is different than many in the world, because not only do we know aht is right and wrong, but we actively participate in fixing that shit.

If we detect government blowing money stupidly on dumbass stuff (like pogues), then we SHOULD speak up. If people are living like "kings" over there, it had damned well better start with the guys fighting. The rest "should" be sucking it up for the guys in the field....

[0699]

Sadly, all of the above is true. You can almost tell what level of command you're at by the chow hall. KBR and more than three choices of desserts, Majcom. KBR and one type of dessert, MSE. Messmen and vat cans, you're at a battalion.

Is it right? No. Will it happen? Yes. PSDs with "VIPs" come in and out of here everyday, sight seeing tours left and right. People come into BD, get a brief, and roll out thinking they've seen the war. Meanwhile the Marines guarding the streets keep on doing their jobs.

Being a staff puke right now, I'm kind of at a loss. Being on a division staff is one of the hardest things I've had to due in the military (mentally). Watching these young Marines roll out the gate while I walk in to the COC to write another fucking powerpoint presentation isn't easy. I try to convince myself I'm doing good for somebody. In the last month and a half, I can think of two times where I've actually helped someone. Other than those two times, I might as well be back on the mainland.

Anyway, I got nothing valuable to add to the conversation, just wanted to complain about being on the staff. If ANY of you are ever by BD, I will do my utmost to help you. Using my screen name, it'll be easy to find me.

Oh, one more thing. Have no doubt about the quality of your young Marines out here. They are doing great work.

S/F,
0699

[Xdeth]

Reminds me of an ecosystem, what happens when only the top of the food chain is left standing?

[SOTB]

Reminds me of an ecosystem, what happens when only the top of the food chain is left standing?People stop using "Bite Me" as sarcastic retorts?

[Xdeth]

People stop using "Bite Me" as sarcastic retorts?


You can now graphically demonstrate my std response to yourself!

[SOTB]

You can now graphically demonstrate my std response to yourself!Is this the newly patented response or an older version?

[Xdeth]

Is this the newly patented response or an older version?

uhhh, begins with b, ends in w.

[SOTB]

uhhh, begins with b, ends in w.Ahhh, the newer yet highly confusing and little understood one....

[Silverbullet]

Not only do the real eschelon live better but they will benefit from awards also. As Taxi said it's been happening forever. Doesn't make it right, but there seems to be nothing that can change it. BIAP is relativiely safe and those field grade officers need something on a fitrep that shows they deployed to a war zone.

The worst part will be 2-3 yrs from now when you see someone that never dropped the hammer on someone or felt the flame, being touted as a "expert" or "seasoned vet".