Gunman

[67 Fastback]

Couple months back I was up at the local mall, and happened to walk into the petstore; accidently bumping into a dirty looking fellow in the entrance who evidently was not in a good mood. So I'm standing there admiring a purebred Norwegian Elkhound and it dawns on me that the lady clerk is on the phone, frantic, shaking, tears streaming down.

The man in the entrance is her soon to be ex-husband. She's on the phone to the cops terrified that she's about to die because her psycho meth addict ex-husband is gripping the .38 in his coat and has threatened to kill her.

There are a couple people in the store, but for some reason no one notices what is going down. No police here, no security guard, not even a burly looking fellow in sight, save the asshole in the door.

So I did the only thing I could do, I leaned up against the wall between the lady and the shithead, and nonchalantly whistled to the bird next to me. No way this asshole is gonna shoot this woman while I stand by like a pussy.

There's one problem though: I haven't a clue what I'm gonna do. I'm not Rambo, Bruce Lee, or Choke. My best bet, as I see it, is that maybe If I can get close enough, I can lock his arm, get him to the ground, and take the gun away; all the while yelling for help as loud as physically possible. Thats in an ideal world. I've never had to *actually* do this. He could just pull the weapon out and cap both of us before I can do anything.

Anyway, realizing that she had just called the cops, and clearly not being truly bent on killing anyone, he made a quick exit out of the mall.

So in the tradition of the pizza shop assault thread, what do you do? You've got a drug addict, with a .38, about 6'3 probably 215-230 lbs. You're about 10 paces from him, and you can't run because you have someone to protect.

[Hoepoe]

Generally speaking, and each and every situation is unique, the sit described is a bad situation.

From what you describe, there isn't a helluva lot you can do, if the gun is in the perps hand (in his coat), i'd say, stay out of the line of fire, don't be a hero, don't become a target.

The natural urge (for some) to defend others is commendable, but remember that you cannot help anyone if you're dead. Remember you were there as Joe Citizen, not a LEO.

Trying to tackle someone in this state hand to hand is also a no no for most.

Personally, i think you did ok, save for the putting yourself between them as if he was a meth addict and wanting to shoot her, he would have shot you , and anyone else in the way.

If you're unsure that doing nothing was ok, simply check the result, your ok, she's ok, he fucked off.

So what are the options?

Even if you were armed; take a shot, risk missing, risk hitting her, what does the law say? what if he never had a gun? what if it was legal? many questions here but i believe (pls correct me if neccessary) that unless you see the "means" and the "intent" you cannot use force.

In this case you only saw the intent.

Physical confontation? This aint Hollywood and unless you could be as sure as possible, that it would be one strike neutralization of the threat, not worth it, can and probably will go awry. Have you ever gone h2h with a drugged up guy/girl, not easy.

I don't like to think of myself as cowardly, but unless the shit went down, or was clearly about to, i would stay out of his way, perhaps close enough to react if need be, but unless there was a clear threat, i would keep my nose clean and live to see another day.

Hoepoe

[Daredevil]

I would have just as nonchalantly moved behind him, and casually dropped my hand down to my knife.

If I thought the gun was coming out, I would have gone for his neck Sayoc style.

With the old knife-to-a-gunfight adage, I figure an attack from the rear is the best bet.

[Trip_Wire]

I think you did just what you should have done

[EarthPig]

I think you did just what you should have done
Concur. I would've done exactly what you did. If the shit hit the fan, I'd 'wing it.'
RLTW
EP

[Snake]

Wait until he shoots the female, then draw and ventilate him while he's distracted.

[Guy]

Call 911!

Take care.

[mara]

If walking away isn't an option and you feel compelled to intervene, knife him in the back.

[Dale Seago]

I think you did exactly the right thing -- as Hoepoe noted, "In this case you only saw the intent".

Had you seen a weapon come out or had the guy become physical, then (just another option to add to those presented) chucking a 5-pound bag of dog food upside his head could distract him from his target while giving you the opportunity to close the distance and engage with that folding knife I know you must be in the habit of carrying. :p

[Forestboy]

I'm with Snake except I would try to shoot him before he shot the lady, but after he had demonstrated hostile intent.

[TACFROG]

67F,

Get a CCL, get a gun, train and carry said gun. Utilizing available cover and abiding by the law, smoke the turd if necessary.

Since that wasn't an option at the time, it sounds like you did well.

If you're in Texas, near Dallas and need to get a CCL, let me know. I've got a buddy that runs a great course.

Take care.

[90mm]

Speaking only for myself, there are only two people that I would eat a bullet for - my wife & my daughter. And I won't deprive either of them of my company for the sake of a stranger...I owe them more.

That said, and depending on my read of the situation, I might talk to the guy to distract him from his mission. "Hey, pal, you know anything about dogs? I'm looking to buy an Elkhound, but this puppy doesn't look quite right to me. Does he look healthy to you?"

[desertdoc]

Sounds like you did well. Here is what I would do: ;)

Drop to combat crouch, tuck and roll to the puppy cages, and start firing away with AKC pure breds and mutts. Breaking his OODA loop with a overwhelming rate of fire, i would again combat roll to bunnies and kittens. Good CQB stuff, using available cover, i would make use of the angles and walls and try a richocet of the Mark 1 Mod 1 gerbils that Tactical PETCO carries.

Once said perp is down and out Shake off the feathers and head for the Cheesecake Factory for some fine dining. :p

[67 Fastback]

Thankyou all for taking the time to offer advice and input. It has been carefully read, and seriously noted.

I don't carry a lockblade...*ducks for cover*. As for the CCP, thankyou for the offer Frog, I'll keep that in mind when I come of age. By then I should be back in Dallas permanently.

Someone once told me: "Always be the first to stand, and last to sit down." These are words I have come to live by.

[CREWSAFE]

Agree...you applied the best tactic. You only heard that there was a gun involved, so knifing this guy could have gotten you in trouble. A distraction & quick psychological profile of this guy was the best c.o.a. in this instance. Worst case scenario...go for the dog food up side the head or grab a screaming monkey out of the cage & throw it on the would-be perp. Always remove the object of anger & the situation usually defuses itself.

[Ranger002]

First off you had the awareness to notice. Second you took stock of the situation and did nothing. If the guy was going to shoot her he would have done so at the first opportunity. By remaining calm, observing, and not overeacting, no one got hurt or killed. I know some of the folks here might have escalated the situation before the guy did something but I feel your instincts were correct and prevented a tragedy. Good Job.

William Hazen

[mac3982]

i think you did right, if he wanted to shoot her he'd would of done it the moment he arrived.

[Sharky]

You did the right thing. If he had pulled a gun out, and you had a gun also, ventilate him. If you didnt have a gun, I wouldnt suggest going H2H with him. As well, knife wounds, unless you really know your shit, are almost never immediately fatal or incapacitating. You stick him wrong with the knife and you're probaly gonna get shot. If I saw the gun, believed he had means, opportunity and intent, and I had no gun, I would probably have chosen the sneak attack. Find something big and heavy and cave his fucking melon in from behind.

Just remember that you have to reasonably believe that he is about to cause serious bodily harm or death to yourself or someone else before you can legally use deadly force. In this case you were correct to do nothing, but good on you for being aware that something was going on.

[RsovRanger]

Lotsa good stuff to beat someone with/throw at them to get them off guard in a pet store.. One of those cat jungle gym wooden things would do the ticket.

Chances are I would have just told MC to flank 'em, and I would have done just what you did. Either that, or completly throw him off guard, playing as though he's a store attendant and start babbling about how I want this fish but I don't know anything about it, what it eats, how it shits, wether it's carniviorous or a plankton eater, how often it reproduces and how it screws...

[Snake]

Appearances being everything, wrt gunplay, all a DA and Jury are going to see is that you backshot this guy, who hadnt actually -done- anything as yet.

Hence, wait till he shoots her, then ventilate him while he's in the moment. This leaves you most likely in the clear, legally.

Cold blooded? Yes. You carry a weapon to defend yourself and your family, not people who involve themselves with psychos. The only goal in this scenario is to prevent him from killing -you-, the woman is a nonfactor. Your safety trumps everyone elses, and if -you- go to prison for a few years, for backshooting an as yet innocent man (he hasnt -done- anything yet), who protects your family?

[AQUATEENHUNGERFORCE]

you can use findlaw.com to find any law in any state, they are kept current. If you have any questions reguarding legality of action (deadly force, putting your hands on someone) in your state or any other, this is the resource.

In the situation mentioned. A Non law enforcement person really should not intervene IF she already had Law enforcement on the way. Be a good witness. If the situation escalates prior to arrival of L.E. to the point of physicality, use proper judgement. She chose to date this guy, dont get yourself involved unless she appears to be in emminent risk of serious bodily harm or death. If youve got a cellphone, go ahead and call the police, even if she already is on the phone. Some people are stupid enough to call friends when theyre in danger, not the police. Did you SEE the gun in his pocket? If so, report it. If not, then youre judging yourself on information you didnt have at the time. From 6 years of law enforcement, Ill say that the distraction is the best way to de-escalate the situation.

[avenger2616]

I dunno guys...
The idea that I'm going to stand idly by as an Armed Citizen (I generally carry a fair quality lockblade in low threat environments) and allow someone to get shot seems kind of irresponsible to me.
That being said, no; the guy we're talking about here isn't a REAL threat because we can't see his weapon. That's not quite going to keep me from palming my own closed blade so its accessable to me in the event of gunplay. If I see a weapon I'm sure going to make a try for a real damn fast stop on this guy.
I flatly reject the idea that the only reason I carry a weapon is for my own protection and the protection of JUST my family; that's like saying I'm CPR certified just to save a member of my family, that I'd stand by if some oldster went down in front of me. I feel that the responsibility of a legally armed citizen is to project a bubble of safety around them as much as possible.
A few months back, a disgruntled father decided to shoot up his ex-wife and kid in front of the courthouse in Taylor,Texas. A block away, a licensed pistol instructor took up his pistol and ran to the gunfire to stop this goblin. I think that's the idea, if you can get into a position of safety and can safely engage it is your moral responsibility to do so. *steps down from his sopabox* sorry, forgot I'm a lurker for a second there, but that's my bit on the subject.
-A-

[CPTAUSRET]

avenger:

We don't know you, please read the below posted thread, and comply.

http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26381&page=1&highlight=Profiles+read

Terry

[avenger2616]

I'm sorry to intrude sir, I never pretended to be an expert; nor did I pretend to have BTDT. I simply felt the sudden urge to weigh in on this subject... maybe I'm losing my mind today... ah well, some people have to pick on something no matter what...
:rolleyes:

[CPTAUSRET]

I'm sorry to intrude sir, I never pretended to be an expert; nor did I pretend to have BTDT. I simply felt the sudden urge to weigh in on this subject... maybe I'm losing my mind today... ah well, some people have to pick on something no matter what...
:rolleyes:

If you are going to participate on this board, you are going to be asked to fill out your profile.

You want to be picked on, numb nuts?

The profile request is a simple enough to comply with, if you do not wish to comply, then stay thje fuck off these boards!

"Don't start no shit, and there won't be none"!

[Trip_Wire]

I dunno guys...
The idea that I'm going to stand idly by as an Armed Citizen (I generally carry a fair quality lockblade in low threat environments) and allow someone to get shot seems kind of irresponsible to me.
That being said, no; the guy we're talking about here isn't a REAL threat because we can't see his weapon. That's not quite going to keep me from palming my own closed blade so its accessable to me in the event of gunplay. If I see a weapon I'm sure going to make a try for a real damn fast stop on this guy.
I flatly reject the idea that the only reason I carry a weapon is for my own protection and the protection of JUST my family; that's like saying I'm CPR certified just to save a member of my family, that I'd stand by if some oldster went down in front of me. I feel that the responsibility of a legally armed citizen is to project a bubble of safety around them as much as possible.
A few months back, a disgruntled father decided to shoot up his ex-wife and kid in front of the courthouse in Taylor,Texas. A block away, a licensed pistol instructor took up his pistol and ran to the gunfire to stop this goblin. I think that's the idea, if you can get into a position of safety and can safely engage it is your moral responsibility to do so. *steps down from his sopabox* sorry, forgot I'm a lurker for a second there, but that's my bit on the subject.
-A-

Now that you have filled out your profile, think about what you are saying here. Read back through the various posts, I'm sure you'll see that most of the experienced LEOs on the board to include me (34 Years) do not recommend a direct action course in that given situation.

Why do you think that is? Most to include myself, have witnessed police shootings that have been well justified, turned into a circus at court hearing or trials. In the local media, your history and reputation as a LEO questioned, as well as your perhaps having your racial motivations questioned if the subject is of another race, etc. Also, anything stupid you have ever done in your life will be exposed in the media as well.

We have also seen the same shootings, even though found justified in the criminal hearing or courts taken from there to a Civil Court.

A civil trial accepts none of the findings from the Criminal courts. It will start all over again and your department may or may not supply your lawyer or pay for your court costs. (Most of the the time they do, because of their own self interests) In the case of you, as a civilian you would be on your own for your lawyer and court costs.

Of course a civil court, can impose a large monetary judgement against you in favor of the subject or his/her survivors. You would have to pay this to them.

In view of all of the above, most off duty and retired officers think twice before jumping into these types of situations. I would only get involved to save a life, under the most extreme circumstances. As a retired LEO, with credentials to carry a weapon, I do carry one when I'm out and about. I do not think of it as a duty to police my neighborhood.

I really carry it for my own protection, as well as my family members. I would obtain a CCP to do the same, if the State I lived in didn't provide retired LEOs with the right to carry and of course now the Federal Law covering all LEOs and retirees.

As a retiree, I would most likely not get any backing from my former department, or represented by the County's DA. Think of all the costs and fees I would be up for, not to mention civil judgements, etc.

BTW: Even your example on CPR could result in a civil trial directed against you, although in first aid type cases the courts seem to adhere to the fact, that if you tried, using an accepted first aid method you would not be liable.

I do not subscribe to your bubble safety theory at all! People with CCP's are issued them for personal protection, not to be the neighborhoods policemen. They should be VERY careful in using their firearm to get involved in crimes that happen in front of them. Do you even know the difference between a misdomeanor and a felony under your State laws?

[CREWSAFE]

Damn...that was in-depth & to the point. Lesson over...Class dismissed!

[avenger2616]

Actually, I just moved to Florida last week; so I'm not even completely certain whether my knives are completely legal so I haven't been carrying anything. In any case... Yes, I had a fair knowledge of what constituted a felony/misdemeanor and still have a fair idea under what circumstances I am permitted to act. You're absolutely correct that I'm not the neighborhood police man, nor do I have the legal right or ability to act as such. That being said, the original poster set up a situation that could quickly have turned pretty terminal. I wasn't attempting to address the blanket legality of lethal force I was responding to the situation presented to me.
In my opinion, from reading the original post; the poster was in a bad situation from any angle. One, he was in the immediate vicinity of an impending serious assault, if not an impending murder. Two, he didn't have the ability to conclusively address the problem- he wasn't carrying any weapon at all. And third, he felt morally obligated to intervene; he didn't know what the full situation was until afterward. I realize I'm still going to get a lecture on this subject but I doubt my feeling about the moral duty imposed by a CCW permit is going to change...
Most of those with a CCW permit that I've known don't live in a high crime area that would require them to "protect" themselves and their families...
Another thing, if this methhead had decided to start shooting his girlfriend... what would have stopped him from shooting the closest witness? i.e. our friendly good samaritan poster above... I think in the event of gunfire, this guy's safest bet, if there was no way out of the line of fire; would have been to do his damndest to remove the threat. I think in my case that would only be compounded by the possibility that there might be people that I care about in the area as well.
Hmmm, I think I've said quite a bit on this subject... and all before my first cup of coffee... I await the impending ass chewing I'm about to get

[Dutch8654]

my .02

Let me tell you what happened to Todd, 30 yrs of age, hot wife and three daughters aged 2,4,and 6. Mid 90's , Dallas, Tx. Todd and I worked for a popular sportbar chain as managers. He was my size, about 6'1" 200lbs.Todd was the GM at the location voted the best sports bar in Dallas for several years. Babysitting big drunk cowboys, some we find to be armed, was a constant challenge. Anyway, ex boy friend and girlfriend in a booth by the bar argueing right in the middle of lunch. Todd hears about it and approches the table to ask them to quite down. BF see Todd and shoots him right between the eyes from 5-7 paces. Venitilates the GFs chest several times and then himself. No criminal case but the other managers and the company are sued in a civil case and the restaurant no longer exists.

points

1) dont bring a knife to a gunfight...violate this at your own risk.
2) Kids nowadays kill like they think its make believe. You don't meet after school and fight then shake hands like WE used to.
3) If you decide to get involved, and survive, realize you may become involved legally on the civil side with consequences beyond your wildest imagination. You see examples of this all the time.

[CPTAUSRET]

I await the impending ass chewing I'm about to get

avenger:

You won't receive an "ass chewing" for posting your thoughts!

You are welcome here as long as you don't bring an attitude, the rules are pretty simple, really.

Big Boy Rules apply.

Terry

[Trip_Wire]

[QUOTE=avenger2616]
Most of those with a CCW permit that I've known don't live in a high crime area that would require them to "protect" themselves and their families...

Hmmm, I think I've said quite a bit on this subject... and all before my first cup of coffee... I await the impending ass chewing I'm about to get
Avenger2616:

Firstly, carrying a concealed weapon for protection, has little to do with where you live. Living, traveling through, or conducting business in. Such a high crime area might make a prudent person, pause to think about the caliber of the weapon, how many back up guns/knives to carry and how many clips or magazines to take or carry. Not to mention the level of awareness and alertness one needs to maintain in such an area, not to say that the level of alertness shouldn't be high for all CCP people at all times.

The fact is that a crime and/or need for self protection can and does happen anywhere. Car jackings, muggings, robbery & assaults, rapes, etc. are not limited to so called high crime areas. In fact, it could happen in your own home.

Secondly, I guess my first message to you went right over your head, so it was a waste of my time and effort. Althogh, may be some of the "Lurkers" here might get something out of it. I say this because to me, your last message seemed to go right back to where you were. I'm not going to "chew your ass" that would be also a waste of time, nor will I post on this tread to you again.

I offer you advice based on my experience in the real world. If you choose to ignore it, so be it! When and if you get a CCP and start carrying, save your money and keep a VERY good Lawyer on retainer, as you'll no doubt need both! :p

BTW: As I think about it your choice of screen name "avenger2616," may be a clue to how you think on this subject. "AVENGER" :rolleyes: