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View Full Version : Variable Cost by Enlisted Air Force Specialty Initial Skill Training (FY 03$)


johca
10 April 2005, 16:47
Cost per graduate for training courses required for specific AFSCs at the basic skill level.


1T2X1 Pararescue --training length 103.8 weeks, training cost $152,936

1C2X1 Combat Control--course length 43.4 weeks , training cost $53,420, please note that this is misleading as CCT broke out some courses to be completed after award of entry level qualified skill level. If you add in the mandatory advanced skills training given before individual CCTers are cut loose to their first operational unit the cost and training weeks would be very similar to Pararescue.

1A7X1 EAUC - Aerial Gunner Helper--training length 17.8 weeks, training costs $187,003

1A1X1B Flight Engineer Apprentice (Helicopter)--Training length 16.9 weeks, training costs $37,528

1C4X1 Tactical Air Command & Control Apprentice--training length 22.1 weeks, training costs $23,945

1T0X1 Survival Training (SERE)-- training length 46.6 weeks, training costs $75,992

1W0X1 Weather Apprentice (Combat weather) training length 26.2 weeks, training costs $29,542

3P0X1 Security Forces Apprentice 17.4 weeks, training costs $19,359

Reference: AFI 65-503, Attachment A18-1A, Variable Cost by Enlisted Air Force Specialty Initial Skill Training (FY 03$) (https://aftoc.hill.af.mil/AFI65503/Personnel_Factors/18-1a.html) This table provides adjusted course length and required to produce one graduate capable of doing theentry level job in each Air Force Specialty. Please note--that the adjusted costs include costs of flying the aircraft if the training requires individual be trained on doing crew duties as a primary aircrew member.

Sdiver
10 April 2005, 17:57
WTF !!!!!

An Aerial Gunner Helper's (1A7X1 EAUC), training cost $35,000 dollars MORE than PJ's training.

WTF are they getting.......Guns made out of GOLD !!!???!!!???

johca
10 April 2005, 19:23
The training cost factors in a prorated indirect costs of pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer, and fuel and maintenance cost of flying the aircraft. This is why this chart is misleading. You need to look at the data that was inputted to arrive at the training costs figures, especially for primary enlisted aircrew specialties.

reference the fine print:

"Cost elements included in Variable Cost per Graduate:
Direct Costs - Costs directly associated with training. This includes instructor pay and allowances, any training equipment maintenance, and any course materials. Extraordinary costs unique to a course such as ammunition costs for Security Police courses are identified.
Indirect Costs - Costs indirectly associated with training. This includes base operating support (BOS) of instructors, students, and training equipment maintenance personnel. Examples would be medical support, food service, civil engineering, base security police, accounting, and chaplain.
Student Costs - Pay and allowances of the student, pipeline PCS costs, or travel and per diem as applicable. Travel and per diem are factor derived and not based on actual data unique to the course."

Rotor Strike please
10 April 2005, 19:49
Yeah, I find that hard to believe as well. For one, FE's fly more rides at the schoolhouse and have to be taught more information. I put this right up with that yearly statement they always send me that tells me how much I'd be making if I was a civilian equivalent. Nonsense...

Nuke
10 April 2005, 20:34
Cost per graduate for training courses required for specific AFSCs at the basic skill level.

1A7X1 EAUC - Aerial Gunner Helper--training length 17.8 weeks, training costs $187,003

1A1X1B Flight Engineer Apprentice (Helicopter)--Training length 16.9 weeks, training costs $37,528

This does not even make the smallest bit of sense. You can look at the costs from whatever angle you want, but someone needs to fire the people that did the survey to come up with those numbers.
:confused:

Highspeed160th
10 April 2005, 20:50
Ok aerial gunner never made sense to me. WTF is a helper? Tell me that's a newbie or a 10 level or what ever you call it.

Gunners Bitch?

Rotor Strike please
10 April 2005, 21:48
1 level gunner is called a helper. It means he's done the academics, but isn't fully qualified to fly. What doesn't make sense about an aerial gunner? Being a seperate entity than a crew chief?

SATCOM
11 April 2005, 08:46
CCT trainees must attend AST, so their costs and length of schooling are doubled. Without getting into intricacies, this will soon change.

Highspeed160th
11 April 2005, 09:21
1 level gunner is called a helper. It means he's done the academics, but isn't fully qualified to fly. What doesn't make sense about an aerial gunner? Being a seperate entity than a crew chief?

If your not flying what does this person do? Do they have additional duties? I'm curious to know without busting OPSEC what special training do they get that sets them apart from the Army guys that do both jobs? Do they maintain weapons? When the flights over do they jump out of the seats like the pilots and head for the house? Like those Aerial observers we used to have? Do your C/E's on the other side of the aircraft get the same training?

Just trying to understand the role. Is there a job and duties description somewhere unclassed? I understand everyone is busy as hell right now but what do they do in peace time?

Not throwing is stones just trying to understand

Nuke
11 April 2005, 11:26
Highspeed,
Unlike the Army, the aircrew fly and usually another secondary duty in the squadron like pubs, or mobility.
As a 1 level, he isnt even out of tech school yet. They graduate as a 3 level and then off to the squadron for mission qual and then flying as a Gunner.

Yes, just like the pilots, they clean up their station and head to the bar when the flight is over. AF Crewchiefs then take the bird to do all the fixin. The Crewchief's do not fly with the bird, just fix it.

The Flight Engineer's get more training in aircraft systems and can do minor maintenance away from home station or when they PL.

I hope that helps.

Doogie320
11 April 2005, 11:35
Not throwing is stones just trying to understand

You and me both. If the rest of the world understood the AF they'd probably be a part of the Army again. :D I work for the AF now and there are a lot of things to adjust to.

Signed,
some "Dude"

Highspeed160th
11 April 2005, 11:49
So if the C/E doesn't fly are there two gunners? Or does the FE cover one side, and if so does he get gunner school as well?

Can I assume gunner school is so long because you learn Spectre systems?

I just can't fathom, ok this is where you sit. this is where the bullets go, this is the trigger, that's the target, and your job is "Clear left"!

If I was a non flying Air force C/E, I would kick a gunners ass on a daily basis. :D

Nuke
11 April 2005, 12:44
Highspeed,
The basic crew for a AF 60 is 2 Pilots 1 FE and 1 Gunner. FE on the right and Gunner on the left. Yes, the FE has to be trained in Gunnery and the systems both. The FE is also the Hoist operator for rescues.

In the 53, the crew is 2 Pilots, 2 FE's and 2 Gunners.
One FE in the jumpseat running all the systems and navigating and one in the right door manning the gun and hoist.
The Gunners man the left gun and Tail gun.

The FE is always the NCOIC of the aircraft during flight operations regardless of rank. I dont think that has changed but someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Gunners are good for naked hugs and porn and other crew neccesity's. :p

Rotor Strike please
11 April 2005, 12:48
Yep, that's pretty much the way of things...sorta. As gunners, we are the shooters on the left side of the a/c. Also do all the AIE gear out the left. In addition, we have become sort of the radio operator nowadays. We are satcom/comsec/secure radio experts. In addition, all the a/c defensive systems are run by the gunner...sorta. We are qualified to maintain the weaponry and are able to strip it down to the smallest part, repair it, and put it back together. However, that never really happens. Mostly the weapons shop does that for us. We only do it in the field. Gotta run...more to follow later.

Mikey G
11 April 2005, 17:40
If I was a non flying Air force C/E, I would kick a gunners ass on a daily basis. :D


:D :D :D

Nuke
11 April 2005, 18:18
If I was a non flying Air force C/E, I would kick a gunners ass on a daily basis. :D
I've always had two words for the Crewchiefs that bitched: CROSS TRAIN :D

Grand58742
12 April 2005, 03:06
1C2X1 Combat Control--course length 43.4 weeks , training cost $53,420, please note that this is misleading as CCT broke out some courses to be completed after award of entry level qualified skill level. If you add in the mandatory advanced skills training given before individual CCTers are cut loose to their first operational unit the cost and training weeks would be very similar to Pararescue.

I was under the impression that CCT trainees were assigned to their unit, sent to the advanced skills training, awarded their 5-Level upon completion of the advanced skills then assigned as "mission ready" within their unit.

Just trying to get some facts straight from what a troop of mine was told. He is considering the CCT cross training route in about a year or so.

Grand58742
12 April 2005, 03:22
Just trying to understand the role. Is there a job and duties description somewhere unclassed? I understand everyone is busy as hell right now but what do they do in peace time?


http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforceenlistedjobs/a/afjobaircrew.htm

Scroll down for each job link

KJ
12 April 2005, 04:30
I think I can help the understanding here being a plank owner of the HH-60 GUNMQ. The FE's initial training costs are lower in dollars because ALL of their training sorties, with the exception of their checkrides, are bought by the pilot training program. The AG sorties also piggyback on many of the pilot rides, but all of their gun range rides are bought for them. That is why, I could bump a pilot trainer ride for an AG gunrun in September, and the pilot instructors couldn't say shit (I distinctly remember this pissing the hell out of a certain pilot named Folkerts that got his student ride bumped for my student). The pot of money is calculated that way. (I am speaking for the H-60 program, and the weeks in training figure for the AG's that John quotes, I believe these are for a PAVE gunner.) If I remember right, the 60 course used to run around 11 weeks on the books. Now, as for your 1-level question, the trainee is just that till his checkride. That is why the money is spent on a 1-level. The school was geared to produce 3-levels UPON GRADUATION from the course. At least, that's the way it was for the 6 years I flew there.

Highspeed160th
12 April 2005, 10:12
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforceenlistedjobs/a/afjobaircrew.htm

Scroll down for each job link

Thanks very informative. Which one of you holds the Flight attendant MOS? :D KJ, you could come out of retirement.

SN
12 April 2005, 10:48
I was under the impression that CCT trainees were assigned to their unit, sent to the advanced skills training, awarded their 5-Level upon completion of the advanced skills then assigned as "mission ready" within their unit.

Just trying to get some facts straight from what a troop of mine was told. He is considering the CCT cross training route in about a year or so.

No,

AST first, then schools, then to a unit.

KJ
12 April 2005, 20:29
KJ, you could come out of retirement.
Why?

Highspeed160th
12 April 2005, 21:04
Why?

You got me there...

johca
12 April 2005, 22:48
I was under the impression that CCT trainees were assigned to their unit, sent to the advanced skills training, awarded their 5-Level upon completion of the advanced skills then assigned as "mission ready" within their unit.

Just trying to get some facts straight from what a troop of mine was told. He is considering the CCT cross training route in about a year or so.

CCT Pipeline (http://www.specialtactics.com/cctpipe.shtml)

Listed below are the current schools and locations prospective candidates for the Combat Control career field will spend the first 12 to 18-plus months of their life. After completion of the Pipeline phase the Controller will enter the Advanced Skills Training (AST) phase at their first duty station --- Hurlburt Field, Florida. Follow-on assignment (or retention at the 23rd STS) will then be determined.

Pipeline:
35 Weeks, Various Locations
CCT Orientation Course
Combat Control Operator Fundementals
Combat Control Tower Training
U.S. Army Airborne School
3 weeks, Fort Benning, GA
U.S. Air Force Basic Survival School
2.5 weeks, Fairchild AFB, WA
Combat Control Apprentice Course
U.S. Navy Underwater Egress Training
Advanced Skills Training (AST)
U.S. Army Combat Divers School
4 weeks, Key West, FL
U.S. Army Military Free Fall Parachutist School

I'm retired--I was a PJ--go ask CCT for te correct current info. I know nothing of the CCT pipeline than what is made public at specialtactics.com

Fire-Gunner
13 April 2005, 03:05
Now, as for your 1-level question, the trainee is just that till his checkride. That is why the money is spent on a 1-level. The school was geared to produce 3-levels UPON GRADUATION from the course. At least, that's the way it was for the 6 years I flew there.

The way the -60 course is now, an Aerial Gunner trainee is a 1-level until completion of the 5 week Basic Aerial Gunner school, where they are awarded enlisted aircrew wings and a 3-level upon graduation. The 5-level is awarded upon completion of Aerial Gunner Mission Qualification, which takes about 4-5 months, mainly based on aircraft availability.

You're lucky if you get a fam ride as a PAX during BAG, and your check ride is your completion of Mission Qual.

Grand58742
13 April 2005, 14:52
Johca, WSC, thanks for the information. I will tell him to get back with his contact and get the information checked out.

Appreciate the help.

Rotor Strike please
13 April 2005, 17:34
160th,
Really, this is all the important work gunners ever do... :D
You all are just jealous! ;)

Highspeed160th
13 April 2005, 18:01
Your right I am cuz that's all you do! :D That dude (or Chick, how hard could it be, you let girls do it) wearing a chute or is that a pogie bait bag or pillow behind that gunner? :D

Highspeed160th
13 April 2005, 18:07
That's a cool pic. How many bullets come out of that weapon before you call crew rest? Being that your Airforce I'm sure there's a formula. :D

The Airforce aircrew motto should be "Always rested".

Nuke
13 April 2005, 19:08
Your right I am cuz that's all you do! :D That dude (or Chick, how hard could it be, you let girls do it) wearing a chute or is that a pogie bait bag or pillow behind that gunner? :D
I must interject!! (sp)
They only let chicks on the 60's. Not allowed on the big boy toys (53)!!
We are the last airframe to be chickless!! :D
But that could all change now that Rescue is under AFSOC!!

JOE-BOO
13 April 2005, 20:37
CCT:
About a year for 3 level (includes casual status awaiting courses):

Combat Control Orientation
Air traffic Control
Survival/SERE
Airborne
Combat Control School

PCS to Hurburt for AST for about 15 months for 5 level up-grade (includes casual status awaiting courses):

Pre-scuba
Combat Diver (Marine or Army and soon Air Force)
MFF (Army or Navy)
(all of the above, approx 3-6 months)

Ground Phase (approx 3 months)
Employment Phase (approx 3 months)
Mission Qual Phase (approx 3 months)

PCS to follow on unit

The overall time frame varies , but this is the expected norm for most junior enlisted. Os, NCOs, and cross-trainees/prior service tend to be slightly faster based on priority.

Info subject to change and I am not in on that loop.

JOE-BOO

Rotor Strike please
13 April 2005, 21:56
Your right I am cuz that's all you do! :D That dude (or Chick, how hard could it be, you let girls do it) wearing a chute or is that a pogie bait bag or pillow behind that gunner? :D

That dude is me...beyatch. That used to be my flight gear when I was young and stupider. It was a buttpack with all sorts of crap I didn't need. Now, I'm carrying all that weight internally, as opposed to on the outside! :D Don't be a hater on the crew rest either. I think my record was 20 hours of flight time in about a 32 hour period. Sometimes we really work. Just not often.

Nuke
14 April 2005, 00:18
I think my record was 20 hours of flight time in about a 32 hour period. Sometimes we really work. Just not often.
That gives you 12 hours crew rest between flights.. Whats the record? :confused:

Nice Fanny pack though!
Do the chicks wear them even though they would make thier ass look fat?

Rotor Strike please
14 April 2005, 02:17
Never mind

Highspeed160th
14 April 2005, 09:36
Never mind

Don't get your panties in a bunch. :D we're just old timers poking you with sticks. Let it roll off your back.

I mean you did finally ditch the purse. :p

Rotor Strike please
14 April 2005, 12:43
Nah, I just posted something that sounded really gay, so I edited it. I'm not pissed, I just figured I'd save myself a rash of shit. :cool:

Nuke
14 April 2005, 13:29
Nah, I just posted something that sounded really gay, so I edited it. I'm not pissed, I just figured I'd save myself a rash of shit. :cool:
But your a Gunner. Your highly trained to take a rash of shit!! :D

azrael
15 April 2005, 19:51
I recently signed a contract for Aerial gunner, I ship for basic at the end of June. I'm curious; are we trained for both the AC-130's and the PAVE's or is it one or the other, if so is their any choice made by the recruit.
Also if you would be so kind as to have any advice for a future gunner?

Thank you.

Nuke
15 April 2005, 20:13
Also if you would be so kind as to have any advice for a future gunner?
Boy is this too easy or what?
Who's first? :D

johca
15 April 2005, 20:32
Boy is this too easy or what?
Who's first? :Dbe nice, it's a young new recruit making his or her first post here.

Rotor Strike please
15 April 2005, 21:42
I recently signed a contract for Aerial gunner, I ship for basic at the end of June. I'm curious; are we trained for both the AC-130's and the PAVE's or is it one or the other, if so is their any choice made by the recruit.
Also if you would be so kind as to have any advice for a future gunner?

Thank you.

Your assignment will be based on the Air Force's needs...however, should you make your desire for a particular airframe known to the instructors at BAG, there is a chance of them helping you in that direction. You only are trained to fly in one type of airframe, but you will get some general knowledge of all airframes at BAG. Pay attention to detail, study hard, be excellent in all you do, and don't give up. Flying isn't for everyone and shouldn't be. Go forth and do great deeds...

Fire-Gunner
16 April 2005, 00:50
Also if you would be so kind as to have any advice for a future gunner?

Yeah, that crash axe to the right of your console has a purpose. That purpose is to smack copilots in the back of their helmets when they do stupid shit. :D

Good luck!