"Red Cell" type gigs

[CosmicTrigger]

I was wondering if anyone had any info on this sort of thing. I know alot of PMCs say they have a team that does this, but their main focus is in Iraq.
I'm interested to know what the competition is like for contracts to get homeland security money to assess security and train people at places like nuclear power facilities, ports, railways, ect. Also, what you might typically be able to bill per person per day. Feel free to PM me if the info is sensitive in any way.

[SOTB]

CT,

My post is not to pick on you, but I think your thread allows for an excellent opportunity to touch on the problems that a lot of guys will/should run into when they think of this industry.

In specific response to YOUR post, while there might well be teams/companies providing the services you mention, what do YOU bring to the table?

Do you have any knowlege of technology? Specifically where one technological advancement in a particular system warrants a revamp or new investment for the company being shown its vulnerabilities?

Do you know ANY of the regs that apply to these different industries? ANY of numerous regs that exist? ISPS regs? NRC or DEO regs? TSA or FRA regs? Or are you just assuming that you can shoot better than they can or that your abilities to climb a fence are better than average?

Even IF you had skills or knowledge of these topics, what experience do you bring to the board as far as teaching others your knowledge? Teaching indigs in LATAM? Fine work -- and important as well, but not the same as imparting classes to union workers, management level personnel, or contract employees of these different industries you mention. MOST of whom were never in the military and ARE NOT intimidated OR impressed that you were. Once you get past the morning handshake, you'd better be able to impart some real knowledge with the ability to back it up with NUMEROUS personal experience examples.

As far as doing the snoop and poop part and "test" of the security of these places, what do you bring to THAT table? Do you bring ideas of performing the test in such a manner as to constructively point out the weaknesses and HOW to fix them? Do you understand the limitations of these industries' budgets and realize how to at least fill in the larger holes in their security? Anything in this line (again, taking into account THEIR regs and budgets as well as the realization that MOST of these orgs are either non-govt entities or heavily influenced by non-govt types)?

Or do you just want to put on some cammies and sneak around a railyard at night? Because, those jobs exist as well, but look for FAR lower than the salaries that you might be thinking of. Bottom line, if I am billing a company for X amount in regards to an analysis of their security (a portion of this analysis "might" include some probes of their system -- although this is not as simple as it sounds), a pretty sizable portion of that billed amount hopefully ends up in MY pocket (and that of my fellow investors). And truthfully, I can get just about any local guy to go cut a hole in a fence for next-to-nothing (compared to the costs of salarying some guy WITH per diem expenses as well).

Again, my post is NOT meant to pick on you. But today I am on a rant. And I realize that as the sandbox begins to lower its pay scales, many of those so-called "security professionals" who are over there today, will look to come home and work themselves into the CONUS market. Your (and their) desire to keep making money is fair. Hell, its even normal. But most of you just don't have the background to pull it off (not in the security industry anyway). Your stories of being shelled while buying pizza in the GZ just won't get it done in the rest of the world. Your rants about how the SAW just can't get the penetration necessary into a VBIED just isn't going to have the same impression on this side of the ocean. Etc., etc.

How do you get that experience -- that which would allow you to be credible in front of a client and his people? For most of you, it will require starting at ground zero and earning crap for pay. And then either good work, luck or both will propel you to larger salaries.

Good luck to you CT. Sincerely. But the truth is that you are coming into a market that is just now seeing an influx of a million guys who all think the same as you do. Cool guy stuff in the military and/or sandbox means "security expertise". You guys are gonna be a dime-a-dozen. I would hate to be in your shoes right now if the security industry was truly your desired career (and you were just now beginning it)....

[Silverbullet]

I'll echo everything SOTB stated and add:

I've put together this type of project. It isn't something a new start up or independent does. The company will need to be cleared and that means already holding clearances, cage code, etc... The company will need to bring expertise to the table of enemy capabilites, TTP's. The company will need to be professional and understand the goal is not to embarrass the security, leadership, etc... The company will need to not be emotionally attached to it's findings since jealousy, personnel dynamics from the tested org's security unit, budget, politics will take precedence over what you put together. You perform a professional service, report findings and walk away unless asked to assist in making changes, mitigating shortcomings. You usually can't advertise who or what you performed this service for due to security and NDA's

There are company's already out there in this loop. They will seek you out if you have the expertise. Otherwise networking may put you into contact with them, but usually not.

[BigNickT]

I've heard about this sort of thing a few times in the past. About 4 years ago a buddy if mine in the security business contacted me about the possibility of doing that sort of work. It would have been a decent gig. Nothing full-time or permanent, but it would have been fun and decent money. This was all before OIF and all the high dollar PSD stuff. However, the job never came to be for a couple of reasons.

First, as soon as someone mentions "red cell" to the CO of a Navy base (or any other branch for that matter) they're going to get a cool reception. From what little I know of the history of that outfit they made a whole bunch of Admirals look pretty bad. That was probably a good thing, but no base commander wakes up in the morning thinking "Today I'm going to see how i can make my security apparatus less effective." The CO's priorities may be screwed up, but you don't need to beat the shit out of him and lock him in the trunk of a car to make the point. I don't know if things of that nature actually happened. All I know is what I've read and been told, but you get the idea. Red Cell turned into a rogue elephant as far as the Navy establishment was concerned (no pun intended) . This was the major reason given for my pal's company not getting the work.

Second, There's no reason for DOD to go to the expense of hiring a contrator to do that work when there are plenty of qualified people already serving who have a vested interest in all aspects of military security (physical, information, et al) and will do the job professionally and a lot cheaper. After all, it's the people in uniform who pay the price for lax security. They're the ones who get killed. Yes, you can talk about the possibility of some group stealing a nuke or bomb, and what that means to the country as a whole, but that's really more of a theoretical thing. Some terrorists getting on the base and detonating a bomb is more real, as is the cost in casualties if the bad guys get ahold of our operational plans or intel. That's why I say that those serving have a real interest. I'm sure many of the people working in the security business do have the best interests of the country at heart, but they also have a bottom line. Those two elements often conflict.

The upshot of it all is that while it may be on the list of services provided, I wouldn't be looking to this area of contracting to provide any ongoing or very lucrative employment. It just doesn't make a lot of sense that it would.

Tax out

[CosmicTrigger]

SOTB-

You make some very cogent points. I realize that shooters are a dime a dozen nowadays, and didn't mean to suggest that my background with SF meant that I could automatically become some threat assesment guru. Since I'm not very knowledgeable about the whole domestic security consulting thing, I was trying to find out some information about it, that's all.
Due to the current situation with contracting overseas, I'm just putting out feelers to figure out my next move. I've been unemployed (except for NG work) since December, since these bastards in NC won't give me my P.I. liscence in this state, or I'd just go back to doing that for a living.
The past few weeks I've been seeing people on the TV talking about how they have all kinds of homeland security dollars that have been pushed down to the state level and no idea how to spend it. I was up in New York last week, and I think it was the mayor complaining about how NY's rail system was completely unprotected and he had no idea how to go about doing it. I just figured maybe some SOF types getting together could help these folks out for a decent paycheck. Seems like there'd be plenty of work to go around, since there are tons of nuclear plants, railyards, ports, chemical plants, powerstations, ect. Just a thought.

[GackMan]

Second, There's no reason for DOD to go to the expense of hiring a contrator to do that work when there are plenty of qualified people already serving who have a vested interest in all aspects of military security (physical, information, et al) and will do the job professionally and a lot cheaper.

I agree with this 100%.

I did this for a civilian 'target' that was covered under good old 5027. It paid E5 pay at the time... no per diem, it was local. ;)

The civilian company got a huge deal, the security manager was happy as hell to have us. He knew what an external physical security audit cost.

[SOTB]

....The past few weeks I've been seeing people on the TV talking about how they have all kinds of homeland security dollars that have been pushed down to the state level and no idea how to spend it. I was up in New York last week, and I think it was the mayor complaining about how NY's rail system was completely unprotected and he had no idea how to go about doing it. I just figured maybe some SOF types getting together could help these folks out for a decent paycheck. Seems like there'd be plenty of work to go around, since there are tons of nuclear plants, railyards, ports, chemical plants, powerstations, ect. Just a thought.When you hear of these grants and other fundsites out there, one just figures that with a sound business plan, you should be able to get at least 1-2 of these gigs. At least the smaller ones.

The truth is that as SB points out, many of the fed-gigs might have stringent clearance and/or govt work experience requirements. Those that don't will at least be looking to employ someone who they can point to later as credible when/if a problem occurs on their watch/at their post. Startups have a problem getting in the door on this, unless they are subbing to a larger cormpnay, and then much of that is through networking.

But it should also be mentioned that these dollars are used up pretty quickly. They might look around initially and wonder where and how to spend it, but the politicians are kinda quick studies on how to spend taxpayer money. One thing that is ALWAYS difficult to sell is an assessment or training service. You see, it often isn't tangible enough for the ones who decide how to spend the money. Not near ass tangible as that multi-dollar CCTV system. Or that brand new container non-intrusive inspection toy (you choose the technology moniker). Or even brand new patrol cars. Etc.

You'll find quite a few companies that have formed up to fill the HS needs of the US. And a few that do it internationally. Again, it all comes down to credibility. Its not enough to state that you have specops experience to do this work. You also need to have indepth knowledge of the industry you are attempting to assess -- in itself, a process which "usually" requires that you have worked there (or you can hire a recent employee from that area).

Once you actually have ALL of the many requirements to show yourself as a reputable and credible company, you then have to have some marketing good fortune (read -- luck or inside contacts).

I would almost tell a newcomer that they would have better luck forming up a cleaning company, following VERY stringent in-house security requisites and then marketing themselves to the big corps/govt as being a sound part of their own internal security commitment (as in if you hire "us", you won't have security violations and then have the media/lawyers/regulators breathing down your necks).

Of course, THEN you have to figure a way of making your company look economically viable -- which is often difficult. Either the hiring corp isn't sold on the idea/don't see the real benefit or the selling company hasn't figured out how to show their value....

[EODDVR]

"But it should also be mentioned that these dollars are used up pretty quickly."

I disagree with this statement. Most of the funding is not getting spent. As a result there is a market for folks who simply want to consult with the govt on how to spend its money. Currently most DHS grants for HLS to the states has not been spent. In my own state of MD we have not yet spent our 2003 money. There are millions that have not been allocated. On the other end of the spectrum in order to spend this money some states are ready to issue F-15s and nuclear response vehicles to smallville sheriff depts.

Visit Red Cell (http://www.redcellassociates.com/)

[SOTB]

....I disagree with this statement. Most of the funding is not getting spent....I would be completely out-of-line to comment on the spendings of your state. If MD hasn't spent their money, I am actually surprised.

As a case in point of where I refer to moneys not being as large as some might think, I point to the grants for security improvements at our nation's ports. The latest is roughly US$49 million. Lots of money, right? Not at all. Over three years into this and still there are MANY ports that gripe about not being able to get access to these funds. And the thoughts of the govt to lump grant funds into one large, umbrella of infrastructure "targets" only serves to ensure that even less money would be available to them.

So this is just but ONE area of the loaction grants get allocated to. Certainly your example of MD not spending their money seems strange, but then, hey, politicians aren't the easiest bunch of people to figure out. Not long ago, there was a story of a Homeland Defense "expert" working for some govt office when in fact, he was a poser. So go figure.

I do believe that there is money to be made in the WOT. But its not so easy to gain access to those big dollars, just because you think you might be able to show someone how to better build a mousetrap. The link you provided is an example of where guys in a certain industry, with probably good contacts, and who have integrated a couple of names into their board to gain credibility with potential clients. If they are truly squared away, then their a) knowledge of the client's area of work, and b) their marketing know-how MIGHT make them some money....

(Edited to add that having G. Gordon Liddy as a board member/adviser doesn't really mean "credibility" to ME, but there are firms that like to hire people just because they get to rub shoulders with the so-called famous -- so this might also be something that works for these guys.)

[Silverbullet]

DOD does sub out their assesments to non DOD entity's.

Additionally there is money in this service.

[RAT]

My .02 since it has been that kind of day…

Hctactics IMHO has said it best. SPECIFIC services are required. I saw the RED CELL web site. What get my goat is everyone puts down the Energy sector. In that sector they all put that they can do oil and gas. That is not specific.

I get in arguments all the time with people who say that they can do goplat take downs. Just because you have done it in the Military or in a 3rd world where people are scared to death they are going to die does not make the people experts. There is so much in that field that you had better have a lot of friends who can help advise you on any number of problems that can arise.

What I know up stairs only has gone out to my old man and a few other... The rest if they want it is going to cost. I don't not consider myself any type of expert. I do know people who are.

So what I am trying to say is that the people who are running the big Corporations are not stupid by any means. Many companies have done threat analysis and what not. They know what they can lose and what they need to protect.

As for HLD money. Yes, it is out there… It is the carrot in front of the horse. Try and get it if you want. After talking to some people pretty high up in the gov they want to make sure it is being spent in the right direction. Many voters out there want to know how and where the money is being spent.

Also, don't forget. Perception is about 95%. If people think they are safe then it is not a big deal.

In business the 2nd to last person you want to talk to is your Security guy. They make you no money and cost you a ton.

RAT OUT!!!

[EasyRunGent's]

CT,
An old friend did the exact same thing you are talking about. He was a very highly respected Marine and SWAT commander. Through years of local police and community involvement he had a good reputation with the community ( and most importantly local politicians...) When one of those local politicians became a U.S. Congressman he had an ear that would listen. He pitched his busines plan to that Congressman who put him in touch with our local new business economic developement commission. They helped him polish his plan and offered some free legal advise and answered questions he never knew to ask. He was able to not only do some networking but found some free money from the development commission to get started and hire some "like minds". Political contacts also got him an interview with local industry and some local industrial defence contractors. He used his police experience and background to "sell" to the local defence contractors (BWXT, BellTextron, Grumman), and local heavy industry ( DOW chemical, Owens Corning), but used his military experience and hired recently retired or former Recon types and vetted SWAT guys local to our area. He played the political card and was rewarded hansomly for it. He had to suffer a bidding process but in the end, the politicians were able to show their community that they would use local tallent locally. Last time I talked to him he wasnt making seven figures, but that wasnt his goal. He has invested in his 3 employees and his business. He isnt involved in trying to insert swimmers onto the old boat ramps at LFTCLANT NAB Little Creek, or has he been involved in any high speed chases with state or local police, nor has he appeard on any episodes of "24" haaaa....he is having fun, and making modest money and making local defence industry safer. He found someone with political pull and simply asked them for help. And man I cant help but remember walking from our house at sewals point housing, to a little glass store front store that had maybe 10 LBV's a weird looking rucksack and a pair of old fins hanging from the wall and thinking "wow, Blackhawk...wonder if they will ever compete with London Bridge....." But everytime I went in there the same funny looking guy and the same lady were bustin their asses hanging more weird looking stuff on the walls.... hmmmm. Start small finish big...
If it worked for them it should work for you. Make a plan, make it happen. Good luck man.
My .02
ERG

[Dutch8654]

I grew up with a Dad in the security industry so I know what his creds are and the big companies that get most of the money. He left NASA after 10 years then worked for TRW in Hawaii to bring the latest systems and technologies to the submarine community CINCPAC HQ. Then we got stuck in BFE New Mexico were he flew in the back seat of a plane that looked like a U2 only bigger. Hi-altitude imagery technologies is all I know. Then another gig in the nuclear field where yes they hired a few SF guys to "Black Hat" certain facilities and they acted on short occasions as consultants. This was early 70s. He traveled to a lot of other type of facilities. These companies had huge buildings with the Tempest glass and the "shit" in the walls. They all had mega-clearences and hundreds of analysts with MSs and PHDs to "game" all the types of facilities and scenarios you mentioned. My point is most of the money that I hope is going to be spent on infrastructure security will go to corporations that employ alot of smart MFs who know their shit and can get access to anything they need. The latest in systems engineering and technologies is far beyound most of us "gunslingers" that have been in the military. I would imagine however there will be some scraps left over for the little guy. As far as the "shooters" in Nuke facilities...they are $20-$25k Wakenhut guards in alot of them. DOE SRTs pay a little better. Good luck.

[CosmicTrigger]

Thanks for all the good info, guys. I was googling the shit out of this area today, and came across a good article written by the Project on Government oversight. They interviewed guards at 20 different nuclear power plants, and all said their training was completely gay. Apparently, they did have regular force on force training throughout the year, but the scenario was always the same: 3 bad guys, using blanks (no sims, MILES, ect) coming through the front gate. No creativity, no exploring different scenarios. No follow-up training, just ass-chewings all around. Talked about wargaming using clothespins and plastic army men. They had private security consultants come in before the exercises, but all they did were talk throughs and threat assesments. I'm sure a small group of SF guys can do a little better...
I also looked at the budget breakdowns for DHS grants state by state. Lots of cash floating around. Its starting to look pretty good.

[Silverbullet]

Thanks for all the good info, guys. I was googling the shit out of this area today, and came across a good article written by the Project on Government oversight. They interviewed guards at 20 different nuclear power plants, and all said their training was completely gay. Apparently, they did have regular force on force training throughout the year, but the scenario was always the same: 3 bad guys, using blanks (no sims, MILES, ect) coming through the front gate. No creativity, no exploring different scenarios. No follow-up training, just ass-chewings all around. Talked about wargaming using clothespins and plastic army men. They had private security consultants come in before the exercises, but all they did were talk throughs and threat assesments. I'm sure a small group of SF guys can do a little better...
I also looked at the budget breakdowns for DHS grants state by state. Lots of cash floating around. Its starting to look pretty good.

You may want to take some class's on how to get a grant. Being able to sell your capabilites to an agency with the value added skill of being able to assist them in the document that lays out the requirement for a DHS grant will help a lot. I need to stress that without clearances and the ability to show that your group/company/partnership has these, you won't get far with any gov't entity's. The route of winning the contract and then getting awarded cage code, etc... is a much harder route.

Good luck

[Casca]

all,

wanted to add a bit... like it was said... DoD does farm out this stuff. (I know I am on the USAREUR team as I write this) but usually it goes to bigger firms (MPRI, CACI, SAIC) this is a very resource intensive field and the providers need to have serious $$ to back up opns. The client dosent want to hear "well, were waiting on a deposit" when they have a special that involves the CinCEur or other heavy breather. (get my point?)


As for DoE they primarlly use thier CAT teams (done that as well) and these are made up of Proforce guards "Lent" to Gov't employees. with the addition of a few Fed Agents.. (this is ALL controled by NNSA these days) so, this is almost impossible to get into.

OK, hope that helps and if I can add more info just drop me a line..

cheers

Casca

[Nousdefions794]

TC,

You said that you're SF in the NG. If you dig deeper you will find more info through your unit for Red Cell type gigs. Get the training and make sure you have a proper clearance. If you haven't been to Broken Axle training, GO! Then talk to the Grp 3. If you still don't find anything PM me. I have a bud who does this for a living.

ND

[Dutch8654]

Thanks for all the good info, guys. I was googling the shit out of this area today, and came across a good article written by the Project on Government oversight. They interviewed guards at 20 different nuclear power plants, and all said their training was completely gay. Apparently, they did have regular force on force training throughout the year, but the scenario was always the same: 3 bad guys, using blanks (no sims, MILES, ect) coming through the front gate. No creativity, no exploring different scenarios. No follow-up training, just ass-chewings all around. Talked about wargaming using clothespins and plastic army men. They had private security consultants come in before the exercises, but all they did were talk throughs and threat assesments. I'm sure a small group of SF guys can do a little better...
I also looked at the budget breakdowns for DHS grants state by state. Lots of cash floating around. Its starting to look pretty good.


Your observations are correct. When I got out I thought the same as you. My Dad at that time left the security biz and had his own company in DC. He really tried to steer me away from being a guard at some nuke site and wanted me to get my fuckin ass in school especially after my 9 years of "fucking off" in the Marines. He reluctantly told me he could get me in the door of any site out there but thats it. He said go to Oak Ridge its close and see for yourself.

Well I figured since most of the critical components for nukes went through there they should be shit hot guys. So I got a place on Racoon Valley Rd., how fitting :D , and reconed the complex for awhile. I rolled up on their SRT/ERT/WTF team practicing at the range. I got out of the car and watched them for 15-30 mins and then left. Bunch of hicks grabassing at the range from what I remember. No tactics, no nuthin just busting caps in some little berm. I was ready to talk with the "man"..... I thought.

Well the head dude was a retired Army general. Things really seemed to be going well as he said he would love to have motivated hard chargers and would really like to get me in there to straighten up his crew. Then he also told me the reality of that there really is no need or money for those types of guys in the industry. This is still evidenced by the sites staffing today.

So my point is your right in your assessment but I am not sure there will be any regulatory or other pressure to make these guys better than they are. And you better have guys who can calculate the momentum of a proton and explain the mechanics of a tritium fission trigger if you want to go beyound simply weapons and tactics training. Same with the other industries/sector as you have to know the risks and that requires alot of specific knowledge that "shooters" don't have.