New Qual Course

[chuckynhl]

http://www.marines.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/main5/84D05AEC911ABCBD8525709A005DF860?opendocument


Marine Corps News | Kaitlyn M. Scarboro | October 14, 2005
MARINE CORPS RECRUIT DEPOT SAN DIEGO, Calif. - Marines re-qualifying with the M-16 A2 service rifle now encounter a new course which started Oct. 1.

The changes made to the course are intended to provide Marines with more combat marksmanship training to better prepare them for the wars of today and tomorrow.

The most noticeable change to the course is the scoring system, according to Maj. Robert B. Richardson, company commander, Weapons and Field Training Battalion, Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton, Calif.

"The first thing they are going to notice is the 250-point (known distance) scoring system," he said.

Initial marksmanship qualification during boot camp is scored with maximum points of 250 using numbered rings to determine each shots individual score.

Marines in the fleet, after boot camp, were scored with a maximum score of 65 points on a hit or miss basis.

The new scoring system for fleet Marines will go back to initial qualification rules with a score between 190 and 209 getting marksman qualification; 210 to 219 for sharpshooter and 220 or more for expert.

The old system required a total of 25 hits out of 65 rounds, a 38 percent proficiency level. The new course requires 60 hits out of 80 rounds fired, a 75 percent proficiency level.

In addition to the new scoring system, Marines must now qualify on a modified combat-oriented course.

"Field firing has gone away and a new beast called Table 2 has taken its place," said Richardson.

Taking the last two days of the week-long qualification course, Table 2 includes three hours of classroom training and hours of practical application drills.

The table also includes different weapons carry techniques.

"(Marines) are not qualified when they complete the (known distance) course. They have to successfully complete the Table 2 to be qualified with the rifle," said Richardson.

The new course includes many new changes to rifle manual and positions. Newly incorporated is the speed kneeling position - dropping to both knees and quickly firing.

"You just collapse to your knees and shoot," said Richardson.

Taking into consideration combat environments, Marines are also being given many more options during their qualification rounds. Controlled carry of the M-16 A2 service rifle with a 3-point sling or a loop sling is now allowed. Marines are no longer required to carry weapons at port arms when exiting the firing line.

Simulated close combat drills with controlled pairs and hammered pairs - when two shot are fired without regaining sight picture - and reassessment drills are enhanced components in the course of fire.

Other changes to the course include clearing procedures for rounds lodged in the rifle and reloading procedures, including speed reloads and tactical reloads.

The new course also includes a Table 3, which is unit-required training in live-fire combat situations including unknown distance and night fire training.

Table 4 is a more advanced table with Marines shooting more than 500 rounds and requires more classroom training. Table 4 is an exclusive requirement for Marine infantrymen.

[B 2/75]

Praise the Lord & pass the ammunition...

Common sense is rearing its head :)

Now if the Army will only follow suite...

[chuckynhl]

Praise the Lord & pass the ammunition...

Common sense is rearing its head :)

Now if the Army will only follow suite...

My thoughts exactly:)

[SgtUSMC8541]

Outstanding.

[VMI_Marine]

We ran the Marines through the Table 2 COF on the flight deck back in September. It's a step up from the old Field Firing course, but not as good as the EMP Short Range Qual Course. For one thing, IIRC it all takes place at the 25 yard line and there is no forward movement. Don't get me wrong, I am pleased the Marine Corps is headed in the right direction on this, but I think we can do it better.

[shootnsurf]

Baby steps VMI, baby steps

[zodiac_jon]

everything in the Corps is babysteps...fuck...

better than nothing...

[SGTROCK]

Jesus Im getting old. The course started Oct 1st....20 years to the day that I went in at MCRD!!!!!!!!!!!

Rock

[mikemac64]

Jesus Im getting old. The course started Oct 1st....20 years to the day that I went in at MCRD!!!!!!!!!!!

Rock


BOOT!!!

[Sean0352]

Long story short, recruit style marksmenship with more combat style shooting. I look forward to seeing how it works out.

[CREWSAFE]

Jesus Im getting old. The course started Oct 1st....20 years to the day that I went in at MCRD!!!!!!!!!!!

Rock

Boot...Camp!:D 31 & counting.

[SGTROCK]

Some of you fuckers are just plain old!!!! :D

Rock

[VMI_Marine]

Long story short, recruit style marksmenship with more combat style shooting. I look forward to seeing how it works out.

I don't know if I'll ever even see this range, I haven't qualed in 4 years, and it's not looking likely for the next 3 years.

[Sean0352]

VMI
We go to the range as a BN in Feb, wanna piggyback? I'll be your PMI.

[VMI_Marine]

I'll probably be at TACP school in Little Creek, or else on pre-deployment block leave. Thanks for the offer, though.

[Sean0352]

Anytime!

[Forestboy]

I've been shooting this course this week for the 29 Palms base Intramurals. Anybody else shooting them? We shoot table 2 for practice next week. I shot this course in boot camp but they changed the qual course the following year. I like this one better.

[shark11]

I just shot the gunfighter package at San Mateo, this new speed kneeling is being the Monica. It took me two days before I figured out what it meant. Im shooting this new course in Dec. If the Marine Corps would just start fixing the pistol course, make it more like a police pistol course. Baby steps I guess

[VMI_Marine]

We had the opportunity to shoot the Army's combat pistol course at Fort AP Hill, it was pretty good. The only thing I didn't like was that all you had to hit was the "E" silhouette itself - it made no difference if you hit it center mass or high in the shoulder.

[0802]

Does anyone have a copy of the POI for this course yet? I am trying to tracking it down, but so far no joy.

[SOTB]

....The only thing I didn't like was that all you had to hit was the "E" silhouette itself - it made no difference if you hit it center mass or high in the shoulder.That must be someone thinking that the pistol used was a .45 instead of the 9mm. Everyone KNOWs that all you have to do is "hit" someone ANYWHERE with a .45 and you'll knock him off his feet....:rolleyes:

[VMI_Marine]

Sir, I've got one but I'm on leave at the moment. If you don't find one by Monday the 31st I'll hook you up. It's not really a POI, just the course of fire for all four tables.

[VMI_Marine]

That must be someone thinking that the pistol used was a .45 instead of the 9mm. Everyone KNOWs that all you have to do is "hit" someone ANYWHERE with a .45 and you'll knock him off his feet....:rolleyes:

Plus if you use a dum-dum round, you can shoot a guy in the thumb and he'll die from the shock.

[HOLLiS]

With the M14 Score for expert was a minumun 230 out of a Max 250. I wonder why the drop to 220. I decided not to mention when I stood on those yellow foot prints in MCRD, but I was in Platoon 1023. No we did not wear leather collars back then or was trained to use buck and ball.

[0802]

Sir, I've got one but I'm on leave at the moment. If you don't find one by Monday the 31st I'll hook you up. It's not really a POI, just the course of fire for all four tables.
Roger thanks, that is what I was looking for. I am also on leave till than so I will send you an email when I get off of leave.

[Dutch8654]

I wonder why the drop to 220.

So more guys like me could be experts everytime:D Seriously, breaking 230 was a whole new level that required the proper planetary alignment for me. I don't even think I ever broke 235. Thats damn good shooting.

[Forestboy]

Course of fire for KD course:

200 Yard Slow fire
Able Target
20 Minutes, any sling in sitting and kneeling, no loop in the offhand, but you can use a body loop with a 3 point sling or hasty or parade sling with the web sling.
5 Sitting
5 Kneeling
5 Standing

200 Rapid fire
Dog target
2 magazines of 5 rounds each in 60 seconds. Any sling you want, standing to sitting. No magazine retention, and your second mag must come from a magazine pouch but it doesn't have to be secured.

300 Slow
Able target
5 rds, sitting, 5 minutes, any sling

300 Rapid Fire
Dog Target
2 mags of 5, standing to prone, 60 seconds any sling.
No magazine retention, and your second mag must come from a magazine pouch but it doesn't have to be secured.

500 Slow Fire
B-Mod target
10 minutes for 10 rounds, prone, any sling.

Minimum qualifying score is 190
Sharpshooter is 210
Expert is 220
Max is 250

[Andy0331]

I just shot the gunfighter package at San Mateo, this new speed kneeling is being the Monica. It took me two days before I figured out what it meant.

That's where you drop to both knees, right? Kneepad appreciation training.

[0802]

Is the "Gunfighter Package" the East Coast EMP, under a new name?

[VMI_Marine]

I don't remember EMP ever including a "speed kneeling" position. I have the EMP POI somewhere, and it only mentions a "combat kneeling" position, which is basically the same kneeling position I was taught during A-line in boot camp. My guess is the gunfighter package is something 1st MarDiv is doing.

[0802]

The combat kneeling is a high kneeling position, with the shooter only planting 1 knee vice the two in the Monica kneeling position. When I tried two knee version it seemed not have allot of balance to it, limited range of movement and was much harder to get up from to move after shooting.

The reason I suspect that the "gunfighter package" is the full EMP under a different name on the Military Chanel they followed I believe 1/5 or 3/5 doing it at 29 Palms and it looked looked exactly the same and used the same colloquialisms.

Knowing that one of the predeployment METLs for I MEF the EMP course, it would make sense that they were the same course and potentially 1 Mar Div had just changed the name.

[szymon75]

week-long qualification course

It looks like the Marine Corps is going in the right direction.

Now, how do I incorporate this into a drill weekend?

szymon75 Sends

[Dutch8654]

That's where you drop to both knees, right? Kneepad appreciation training.

Guys please enlighten the FOG, why are we dropping to both knees?

[HOLLiS]

Guys please enlighten the FOG, why are we dropping to both knees?

Dutch, FOG is 20 years older than me. Your making me feel like I was in Tripoli and wore a leather collar. Knock it off.

[0802]

It looks like the Marine Corps is going in the right direction.

Now, how do I incorporate this into a drill weekend?

szymon75 Sends
The reserve side of the house is looking at doing it over a 2 year period, with the KD portion going one year and the combat portion the next. Since SMCR quals are good for 2 years it would fit in, but that has raised issues also. The other option is to make it an AT event, but that causes other problems.

[Andy0331]

Guys please enlighten the FOG, why are we dropping to both knees?

I might be off base, as I haven't been "trained" in this recently, but I do remember a "double kneeling" position being called "The Monica".

It was taught as a technique with limited use, primarily that of having slightly better stability and larger range of elevation control than the quick kneel or single knee. It seemed to bridge the gap between the quick kneel & sitting. Not a "core" technique, but another tool to use in some situations.

FWIW, it wasn't covered heavily & my exposure to it would be slightly above the "fam fire" level, so I'm no expert. Vinnie might be able to shed some more light on it.

[Xdeth]

Get all your kit on, everything including helmet, start low crawlinig with weapon cradled, stop, come up to a doggie style position, at this point your weapon can be manipulated into your firing hand thumb over safety while forearms still support you, launch yourself up at the waist while pushing from the forearms/elbow with weapon going into shoulder, you are now in the kneeling monica. The one knee is more apropro when going from the standing/patroilling posture.

[Xdeth]

Well, that all sounded a little belt fed, OR you could just show someone in the prone they can back up into this kneeling without moving anything but their upper body.

Problem is , if you teaching this to Marines some agile youngsters will be able to get to the high kneeling no prob, thats why you low crawl them 300 yds in kit first.

[Xdeth]

....
.....thats why you low crawl them 300 yds in kit first.


I kid! I kid! :D