Scope for CQB

[kalashnikov]

Is it possible for one to use a telescopically-sighted weapon effectively in a CQB situation? For instance, a weapon like the AUG, or the G36 (sans reflex sight, just the scope), that has an integral scope but no iron sights. Is using a scope as easy, or easier maybe, than iron or reflex sights?
Thanks in advance.

[Kolt]

For a CQB environment, room-room, why would you want a telescopic (magnification) sight? The targets will be plenty close enough not to need magnification. I find the Trijicon Reflex works great and has no batteries for close in shooting. But if you do want something for CQB, make sure it has a large objective lens for letting in lots of light and a low magnification.

[kalashnikov]

What I meant was, if all you had was a weapon with an integral scope, how would you do at CQB? So for example would the Australians use their AUG (F88, I believe) for CQC despite its integral scope?

[veil]

Kalashnikov,

Standard issue here is the Diemaco C7a1 (flattop) with the Elcan 3,5x scope. I can tell you its absolutely terrible for anything closer than 20 meters. It's the #1 reason i bought myself a P226.

We dont really get trained for CQB like SWAT and CT teams do, but in MOUT most guys take the scope off, afraid to damage it, and aim by aligning the mounting rail with the bottom of the front sight. Its crude, but closer than 10/15 meters it works.

-Veil

[JSOCMarine]

The Trijicon Reflex II sights are superb for this type of shooting. Last year they came out with a new TRIANGLE reticle that lets you use the sight for CQB, as well as more distant shooting using the very tip of the triangle as the aim point. I(and many others)find that using a reflex sight and keeping two eyes open promotes faster target acquisition/decisionmaking as well as allowing full peripheral vision. Magnified optics typically don't allow this.

I am a fan of the Trijicon sight since it has no battery, and therefore cannot shit the bed on you at the worst possible moment. There are other fine sights out there that have batteries, but personally I chose not to use them. Semper Fi.

[JY]

Hi Kalashnikov;

The ACOG 4X32mm optic has a set of iron sights attached to the top the rear is a "ghost"ring the front a blade with a tritium insert, this is used for CQB. The ACOG reflex is the sight of choice though, and is set to the front of the RAS on the M4A1. I have placed a photo of the ACOG 4X32mm SOPMOD M4 issue optic and the ACOG REFLEX Sight set up for CQB/Night Vision use on the front of the RAS on the M4A1, both are on SOCCHAT photos, SNIPER WEAPON SYSTEMS, JY's Toys album.

Hope this answers and illustrates your question. Take care...Jim

[kalashnikov]

Thanks for the responses, everyone.

[recce_o]

Veil,

C7A1? You must be either Dutch or Canadian. I HATE the C79 optical sight for the C7A1. Originally, the rubber armoured exterior had molded emergency open sights on top. After about six months of use they wore off. The Canadian gov't has yet to come up with a back-up sighting system. I agree, under 20m it's useless.

Your army actually lets you carry a privately owned pistol? If I showed up with my own pistol, they'd have me arrested!

[veil]

Recce,

Indeed i am Dutch. I never saw any Elcans with iron (ahem) sights on them though. Only the crappy optic itself. I dont know if its the weapon or the mount or the scope itself, but it loses zero pretty much. Or maybe i just abuse my hardware http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

About the P226, no. They do not allow me to carry it in the field (hell, they even give me problems about my knives) but when the day comes i have to pack my stuff and head for the helis - it will be on my leg.

The really bad part is not only our rifle is allmost useless under 20 meters, we dont get any decent pistol training either. Just standard rangetime : pop the paper. Altough the politicians keep talking about our peacekeeping capabilities and humanitary assistance, we still dont get any decent training for CQB/MOUT.

-Veil

[Yossi]

How about the usage of non-magnification red point optics like the m68 (for the m16/m4 series)?

When will you use red point optics and when will use the reflex? Or is the red point now out of service with the introduction of the reflex sights?

Thanks in advance

Yossi

Btw, in the IDF all personal are allowed to carry and use civilian handguns.

[JY]

Hi Yossie;

The M68 is still around but is not part of the SOPMOD M4 Kit any more, still used by some units. Most operators prefer the ACOG Reflex because NO BATTERIES 8) Plus it is a more rugged sight and needs no special adjustments or settings to operate with night vision equipment. The anti laser filter is built in so no need to carry a separate item. Another factor is the M68 does not have a polarizer filter for shooting in glare or for removing the reflection off glass for a clear view of your target when needed. The M68 Comp. M XD tried to address the battery problem but all batteries die quickly in the cold and with the night vision settings being so dim they end up being left on or the rotary switch being turned on while carrying is assualt sling mode by brushing gear or brush. This also leads to the problem of having to turn the durn thing on when contact is made or probable again draining the lousy batteries.

The M68 is great for SWAT or for short duration CQB but in general combat and such it dies to quick, it was good prior to the ACOG but now to fragile and power hungry with the new technology.

Take care Yossie...Jim

[recce_o]

Forgive my ignorance. Is the M68 the US designation for the mil-spec Aimpoint red-dot that they so proudly claim is in use by SOF in their half page ads in Guns and Ammo?

[JY]

hi recce_0;

Yup, one and the same...Jim

[Yossi]

Why do you need a laser filter?

Thanks in advance

Yossi

[kalashnikov]

I believe it's there to prevent eye damage in case someone accidentally or intentionally points a laser at the sight.

[This message has been edited by kalashnikov (edited 01-06-2000).]

[veil]

I really dont see the use for non-magnifying optical equipment on assault weapons. iron sights work just as well. Dont forget to KISS.

I guess i'll have to arrange myself a looped upper receiver from somewhere.

-Veil

[recce_o]

Veil,

The Netherlands used to use the C7 before the introduction of the Elcan. The C7 had the iron sights and carry handle (as on the M16A1). There are probably a ton of C7's (or C7 upper receivers) in the Dutch inventory somewhere.

[JY]

Hi Yossie,Kalashnikov is correct about the anti laser filter, plus the fact that most military units use laser range finders that ARE very dangerous to your eyes if hit by one, along with laser "sights" in the IR wavelength.

The biggest reason for the ACOG is it is much faster to get a sight picture than IRON SIGHTS where you hve 3 planes to look at, rear sight front sight and target...Veil 8) Plus the other minor fact that it WORKS with NVGs and such(IRONS DO NOT) the Dutch practice of tapping a Zippo on the front sight just doesn't cut it, to much wind on the North German Plains 8) Lighting the rubber armor on the Elcan may work better, don't know buddy the burning rubber may get you a polution citatation and jail time 8)KISS is good but it also has to work, we have the "loop" for ours but is seldom used for CQB the reflex is much faster and much more easy to see in those darker places where CQB is the rule, plus no fire hazard 8) Maybe just turning on the lights inside would help, but then you would still be trying to line up the front and rear sights on the target turning the lights out again 8)

Catch you latter Veil, a little worried about my northern Dutch brothers 8) Those Night Vision sights with the "pour lighter fluid here" had me wondering for awhile, but after checking further and finding the flint holder and wheel all became clear 8) take care of yourself Veil...Jim

[veil]

Hehe JY are you sure those weren't german? all those ex-commie leftovers there... But really, we dont get any NVG's or NVS. I guess they reserve those for the Greenies.

Recce, about the C7's. Yeah the standard grunts are equipped with looped 7's, lucky bastards. Im thinking about buying one of those detachable loops they put on M4's and 16a4's. That way i can still slam that beercan on when i spot something in the distance http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif (like JY said, those damn german plains).

But untill then i'll have to settle for a new upper. They cant make a big deal out of that really.

-Veil, who is going to put some more lighter fluid into his high-speed state-of-the-art NVG aka "the zippo".

[recce_o]

JY,

Are you serious about the lighter fluid contraption? If so you'd better keep it quiet. If Canada finds out about it we just may adopt it as a cost saving measure. Lighter fluid is probably cheaper than batteries for the NODs.

Veil,

I'd be cautious about mounting and dismounting the optics without having the opporunity to re-zero on the range. They say the optics will return to zero after being remounted, but that has not been my experience.

[veil]

Recce,

They dont. Unless in CQB-ish environments, we dont take the scope off. However, even when you leave it on it loses zero all the time. Its just all the chopper rides and rappeling & stuff that beats the scope up.

Usually when i engage targets i let off a few shots in the ground or a wall to see how badly my scope is misaligned and compensate for it in my aim. This sucks in germany where all the ranges have a rubber background so you dont see where the bullets hit.

This is just one of the reasons why i really want iron sights... You guys raise a fund : "Sweet looped uppers for Dutchies".

-Veil

[JY]

Hi Veil;

You just gotta get some 'biners for rappeling, using the Elcan just rips that rubber off and twists the mount 8)

Have two places you may be able to get the A3/4 M4 removeble carry handle that will fit the Canadian flat top;

J&T distrubuting http://www.jtdistributing.com
Reliable service and original Colt part Detachable carry Handle...$104.95 US

Bushmaster Firearms http://www.bushmaster.com
make some gov't weapons for US reliable;
Detach A3 type carry handle...$89.95 US

Both are good companies and will give you good service, the Bushmaster may be the better choice as is for rifle not carbine, pretty sure they will work with you on export. Either will serve you well and are both mil spec items issued to US forces.

Hope this helps you out buddy, much easier than changing out your upper each time and easier to carry. Both should match the color of your upper too,catch you latter. take care...Jim

[veil]

Yeah we used to pull the rope through the trigger guard and slide down holding the '7 by the barrel but that didnt work out http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

But serious : i'll check out the Bushmaster one, there's a _great_ Dutch importer for Bushmaster. Thanks bud.

-Veil