PSD etiquette in the redzones.

[norts]

I remember not all that long ago that the feeling on the roads in Iraq between passing convoys was for the most part "us against the insurgents". Nowadays it seems like many details view other details as the greatest thread outside the wire.

Some classic examples are when rolling up behind a detail, the tail gunner waves you off and then after you back off he keeps weapon aimed at you and no longer looks for any threats from the rest of his sector, he just gives 100% of his concentration on making sure the big suburban with 2 gringos in the front and a VS17 panel does not suddenly attack him.

Then you have the details that feel they must be more important than anyone else out there and expect you to wait back at checkpoints for them to go in ahead of you.

There are all kinds of other insane behaviour but rather than use this thread to bitch about other details, I wanted to provide an opportunity to try and establish what everyone thinks is the etiquette when rolling past other details. I know there are plenty of people out there, way out of their depth, panic in their eyes and veins throbbing while they tear around the country running on pure fear that will never follow etiquette no matter how reasonable, but for the rest, here is what I feel are the unspoken rules:

Dont bear down on other details. If its a low vis crew with two locals in the front then sure, I am not going to trust a US flag when there are no other indicators its Americans in the car, but when what is obviously a detail of expats comes near you at a slow roll there is no need to draw down on them or fire flares and warning shots. You are not actually going to engage another expat detail, so why begin the escalation of force?

In keeping with that, respect the signals given if you are approaching from behind.

If you are stopped for some reason that has nothing to do with threats or traffic to the front, let other details pass you after you have identified them.

Dont hold all the real estate at the protected checkpoint lanes. For example if you are lining up at checkpoint 1 in Baghdad, dont hold the whole lane until your limo is through, that just leaves every other detail (and the Army) hanging out. If enough assholes do it the Army will get fed up and we will all have to start lining up in the non-DoD lanes.

Respect the spacing of other details. If they are running 100 meters between cars and dont want you to overtake then dont keep trying to close to 50. If they dont want their own cars that close then they dont want yours.

In short remember we are all on the same side. There are clown companies I wouldnt want anywhere near my limo for fear their drivers, peaking off their heads with blind fear will cause a crash, but all the same I know they are not going to knowingly engage another convoy of expat PSD as if they are enemy insurgents.

And as a side note, some people need to calm the hell down, especially on Irish. If you are too scared to think straight for 5 whole minutes on a road that is currently as safe as it is now, you need to get a new job.

[medic101]

How about in the IZ? Big Army lit up a Canadian PSD last week. There's security and then there is stupidity.

[Guy]

How about in the IZ? Big Army lit up a Canadian PSD last week. There's security and then there is stupidity.There's more to that story...

PSDs should be well AWARE that, driving in the IZ is different from driving in the RZ.

Its their house/AO, carry on by their rules. ;)

"You won't see me walk in a police station and act a fool." :D

Stay safe.

[tboy]

Its called big dick syndrome!! Plus how many people are over here that shouldn't be??

How many companies over here have secured contracts and need to get bodies on the ground ASAP to fill quota! Shitloads. Its a joke what some people hire.

As for the army firing on PSD teams.. Well I cant really blame them! How many teams just arrogantly run checkpoints. What about AIF using similar vehicle to ours so they can get close to the checkpoints. Yes PSD teams need to realise we arent the be all and end all around the place and like Norts said we are all on the same team.

[Argyll 50]

I've had another security team cut me off in the Shadow vehicle,whilst INSIDE a large secure compound,where they had 5 vehicles,ALL shadowing the client who was on foot with our client,they had their client boxed in with a closed box formation,and were physically manhandling the main principle,it was such a fiasco,they had 15 men providing the outer cordon,all whilst inside this secure compound,which prevented us from doing our jobs,whilst making themselves look like complete fucking cocks with their protec skatboard helmets,knee and elbow pads,100 round drum mags,they didn't even thing to secure or check the Comms tower,where our TL had complete coverage of the whole procession,he told us to keep away from these muppets,they were drawing more attention to themselves than we felt comfortable with!

And their TL had the balls to tell us,not ask us,not to leave the location for 30 mins to allow his 5 big black shiny suburbans to get their client out of the area........our TL was like "sure,and if you're lying fucked from an IED 10km's down the road,don't expect us to help out you pompous arrogant prick!"
We left and returned to Tallil on an alternative route...........

Big Dick syndrome indeed!!.........

[tboy]

I've had another security team cut me off in the Shadow vehicle,whilst INSIDE a large secure compound,where they had 5 vehicles,ALL shadowing the client who was on foot with our client,they had their client boxed in with a closed box formation,and were physically manhandling the main principle,it was such a fiasco,they had 15 men providing the outer cordon,all whilst inside this secure compound,which prevented us from doing our jobs,whilst making themselves look like complete fucking cocks with their protec skatboard helmets,knee and elbow pads,100 round drum mags,they didn't even thing to secure or check the Comms tower,where our TL had complete coverage of the whole procession,he told us to keep away from these muppets,they were drawing more attention to themselves than we felt comfortable with!

And their TL had the balls to tell us,not ask us,not to leave the location for 30 mins to allow his 5 big black shiny suburbans to get their client out of the area........our TL was like "sure,and if you're lying fucked from an IED 10km's down the road,don't expect us to help out you pompous arrogant prick!"
We left and returned to Tallil on an alternative route...........

Big Dick syndrome indeed!!.........

No guess's which company that was??:rolleyes:

[Massgrunt]

I'd be curious to know.

[Wells]

You'll deal with this same shit the world over. Professionalism and such associated courtesies in our field have gone completely out the door in the past two-three years.

Forget about trying to assist or support anyone these days; even if they clearly know who and what you are. I don't know how many times I have had barrels pushed into my face, been elbowed, stared down, and/or completely ignored by "so-called" friendly PSDs in some of the safest (secured) venues possible. Tools seem to be more important than brains these days and hell if you say so you'll receive a lecture from hell! I wish we remembered the Primaries more often and stressed less on the secondaries.

Just got to laugh and be happy that at least there are a few details out there that still return signals, assist with advances and venue checks, and tip their hats to you on departure.

[Argyll 50]

MassG..........Thier CEO is a former Scots Guard!!!

[tboy]

MassG..........Thier CEO is a former Scots Guard!!!

Wouldnt be the same company responsible for the latest "issues" in the media hey":D

[Sniper111]

What still amazes me is the NEED for this thread. I am no HSLD BTDT dealer of death, just a somewhat gifted amateur and even I have a relatively firm grasp on the basics. Do people REALLY need to be told that once you confirm the convoy/detail is full of white surfer boys they dont need the muzzle to the PKM in their face?

When I first got started in this business the guys I respected most went about their duties unobtrusively and efficiently. They were the team players, always willing to lend a hand/gear/expertise to ANY expat who asked.

Maybe my first gig spoiled me with an amazing group of guys and I just assumed that was the way things were supposed to be.

[079E/R]

The behaviour of some details running Irish is not only unprofessional, but straight out dangerous. With the increased presence of the I.A, as well as the regular patrolling of the highway and the slip roads paralleling it, the threat level has been reduced dramatically. Not to mention the merging traffic on the access roads being controlled by I.A. Yet you still have detail's driving it like it was 18 months ago.....

Driving at 100mph in a B6 Sub/Ex/whatever is UNSAFE. I am sure that there are a lot of guys driving in details who have been to some great schools and know how to drive. But travelling at that speed whilst rounds are coming in and trying to remain focussed on the road/other traffic/obstacles etc....is hard for the best of them. Not to mention the issue of mechanical failure, tyre blow-outs etc....Just because you are driving an armored car and wearing body armour does not make you invincible. A lot of guys driving out there need to look at the wreckage of a high speed crash/collision and maybe then will they drive at safer speeds. There also seems to be a lot of details that begin to freak out if the traffic is rolling slowly or has come to a complete stop.

I experienced this a few weeks ago when we got caught behind a bank of civilian traffic stopped by big Army. We were just chilling out, covering our sectors and waiting to be called up when the 'Insane Clown Posse' comes screaming up behind us, sirens blaring, barrels pointing out the windows/cracked doors. Due to the speed that they were approaching us at the lead driver locked up his brakes trying to stop. Not only did they disregard our guys in the back when they cracked doors and waved them to keep a little distance, they attempted to pass us on the median and almost collided with our vehicle when the driver lost traction in the mud and tried to regain control by gassing it. It was bullshit and we were furious. Crews like this need to relax, take a deep breath, cover their sector's and not be O.B.E. Turn your goddamn sirens off and chill out. Just becuase you are sitting there with a siren blaring in traffic doesn't mean Moses is going to appear and part the traffic for you. It only draws attention to yourself and the guys in front that you have just driven up on.

The last point is the Gate 12 fiasco. We all know that it can be a real bitch coming in sometimes due to civilian traffic and that it is not an ideal set-up. What 'shits me to tears' is not when it is backed up and you are forced to wait out on Aeros until you can flow through, but when another detail seems to think that they have priority and try to push past and cut everyone else off. That is UTTER CRAP. Some guys out there need to learn some professional courtesy and realise that it doesn't matter who you are working for, we are all trying do do the same job out there.

[SGTROCK]

Hey Iam a "white surfer boy" !!!! lol

Rock

[Sniper111]

Hey Iam a "white surfer boy" !!!! lol

So am I and I mean lily-white, suburban Long Island, Catholic altar-boy, mayonnaise and Wonder bread, pure Irish, blonde haired, blue eyed devil.

I wound up on the wrong end of a PKM sticking out the back of a Ford Explorer in a traffic jam on Tampa just south of Latifiyah while Big Army was making some stuff go boom.

The dude on the gun had the same kind of Ban roll-on applicator eyes I last saw when my SWAT team hit a meth lab. He acknowledged my VS-17 then promptly got back on the gun. Being in an unarmored Land Rover behind said vehicle with a clearly agitated Rambo wanna-be with a potentially terminal case of roid rage looking through his sights at me from a distance of maybe 50m definitely pegged my Oh Shit-O-Meter.

You'd think this crap would have ended and the asshats would be weeded out by now. Not saying I'm the most together, hip individual out there but I know how to act.

[HoosGhost]

Being in an [ unarmored vehicle] behind said vehicle with a clearly agitated Rambo wanna-be with a potentially terminal case of roid rage looking through his sights at me from a distance of maybe 50m definitely pegged my Oh Shit-O-Meter.


This is **exactly** how the locals feel, whether the detail is indig or a bunch of haeoles from the mainland.

Stay safe.

[Argyll 50]

It's certainly not getting any better either is it?

[BoatHouseatHereford]

Norts, a fantastic post, mate. I have lurked for a while here and finally decided to go legit.

Amazingly, I agreed with everything you said. Amazingly not because I wouldnt think you would tell the truth, but because its refreshing to know there are guys on teams out there who think the way I do. I am a firm believer in PSD etiquette, and wish there were more of us.

I sent an email to a mate after a run in with another team a while back which has since been posted on a few other boards around the place. It illustrates my point exactly. We were shot at by a 'friendly' PSD who were the aforementioned bug-eyed fuckwits. I personally dont think we provoked them at all, and they had acknowledged us as they rolled past us going out CP 12.

Anyway, long story short. We thought the shot was off to our flank, but three days later the slow leak in our left front tyre means it gets changed, and guess what we dug out of it? Thats right team...a nicely flattened 7.62 head. The bastards actually hit us. The implications are frightening. We saw, Im pretty sure, the guy who fired the shot in the embassy gym a few days later, and seriously considered taking him outside for a chat. That would have just caused more problems than it solved though, I think.

The point of my rant is that you can definitely tell who should be over there and who shouldnt. Im certainly no expert, but I consider myself level headed and experienced enough in Iraq now to know what Im doing. I get sick and tired of seeing wide eyed, trigger happy homos trying to intimidate their way around the countryside who are totally incapable of differentiating friend from foe.

Probably my pet peeve is the 'my team is more important than your team' syndrome, as previously mentioned. Has anyone here not had a shitty encounter with the BW airport team with their Mambas and stupid baggage truck trying to muscle their way past? What do you do when they blaze past you in a flurry of light flashing and arm waving...shoot at them?

I hate to admit it, but somewhere deep inside me theres a part that hopes guys who act like that get majorly fucked up one day and need some help, so they might hopefully pull their heads in a bit. I doubt it though. We would never go past a team in deep shit if we were able to help. I wonder if they would be the same?

[Fewy_au]

Mate, I agree whole heartedly with you on that.

The way I see it, is that if they want to carry on like a bunch of wankers than let them. I let them go by, they can have all the "Attention" to themselves.

In the end, I'm all for etiqutte, but if they want to carry on then they can go for it, I wont be near them and what goes around comes around.

[SOTB]

While the tread is small and the number of posters in the thread even smaller, it is refreshing to see you those of guys with your heads in the sunshine, instead of firmly entrenched in your fourth points of contact.

Sadly, you are probably outnumbered and if not outnumbered -- you are certainly being drowned out by the those that have the word "assclowns" tatooed brightly on their foreheads.

Stay safe....

[PanaVet]

[/QUOTE] I hate to admit it, but somewhere deep inside me theres a part that hopes guys who act like that get majorly fucked up one day and need some help, so they might hopefully pull their heads in a bit.[/QUOTE]

Wishing someone/team to get fucked up is not going to solve anything. Talking to them and their leadership should do it. If it's a US Dept of State contracted team, then complain to the RSO.

[BoatHouseatHereford]

Yeah mate, Im sure the whole company will change their entire attitude when I bring it up to the RSO. Were you serious or joking, man?

The RSO, the ROC and pretty much every other company know exactly what the problem is, but the reality is the company in question has top cover from the devil himself. They have made a continuous string of quite bad cock-ups at least since I've been in country, yet they continue to stay in business.

The Najaf videos, the Bremer AD, the red phos at the stadium, the attempted shoving of one of our guys, the civilian deaths...I could go on and on. Luckily, being a dickhead isnt against the law. I dont want to harp on about it because its just pointless negativity and it wont achieve anything. I really dont care about them enough to make an issue of it. Nothing is going to change. I just worry about my job and my team, and thats enough for me.

[Argyll 50]

Complaints go into File 13 usually.....(The Bin)....and the comment's Big Boys rules get's thrown in your face,I'm sure the complaints will be heard in the team house, of the team in question and greeted with the same contempt as the incident itself!.
I've always made conversation with other PSD's on the ground as best I can, and the DOS teams have always been friendly polite and helpful,when not under move, I can't say the same for the Brit team, who try to stare you out, in their skateboard helmets , who just give off bad vibes, maybe it was just the team we encountered, but judging by many other's, this is the attitude that TS has adopted, and they're too Regimentative, and ex SNCO's and WO's still think they can talk to you like squaddies, and expect you to address them as "Sir", and who swan around locations being called "The RSM" with an over inflated ego, and zero man management skills!!

The Big Dick syndrome is wearing thin, we've all been here now 2-3 years, plenty of time to get used to the way each and everyone operates, and if running vehicles off the road is your thing,then fuck off, and become a stock car driver!!.......show some respect, and you'll get it returned.

[Echo Five Bravo]

I no longer work for the referenced company, but would like to clarify a few points.

The majority of personnel on the ground are not "cock-ups". There are solid individuals working for them. The 10% rule is in effect, even in British companies. I can guarantee that all the Teams are not walking around in skateboard helmets, and all the other gear. There are plenty of teams that meet professional standards.

Argyll- I am not calling you out, just asking a genuine question to see what your background is with them. How many times have you encountered one of the teams? Just on the mentioned incident, others, etc. I ask this, only because it seems your issues with the company are over an axe to grind with the CEO. Again, I am not trying to start an issue here. Just get a little better understanding of your motivations. Also "RSM" is NOT a reference to Brit Mil lingo. It stands for Regional Security Manager, and falls in line with other acronyms in the hierarchy.

I have had the interactions you described above with other companies. Again, unfortunately the 10% rule is always in effect.

This thread is a good one. It highlights a lot of issues that have become obvious, and they need to be addressed. Unfortunately most of it can be attributed to common sense. On both sides of the dime. The cause is personnel in these types of positions where their mettle has never really been tested to this degree before.

[Argyll 50]

Echo Five Bravo......I have no background with the one I mentioned,I've been with my own company since April 2004.......how many times Have I encountered them?........countless times,more so down South when they were PSD for the PCO.....as for calling me out no worries mate but do some research they have a crap rep, not just from me,from a significant part of the PSD community.........RSM is Brit slang for "Regimantal Sergeant Major", or "Tara",or "Razzman" depending on what unit you're in,if you were a Brit,then you'd know this.........I had a mate who did one stint with them, and he said it was like being back in the Army again,where Regional Directors were in some cases on power trips,and out of their depths......the company is filled with horror stories,sure it's got some quality people like JL the former Ranger,but it's also got a lot of clowns........my issues are NOT with Spicer,they're with arrogant TL's who THINK they're above everyone else,who still think they're serving in the British Army,and if you've ever served in it you'd know exactly what I'm talking about.....RHIP....or Rank Has It's Privileges,some of them treat guys like depot recruits,and treat other companies with some contempt.........like I said,it's not the first time I've been at Locations where they speed into,despite being secured(By us)and come out of the wagons in an aggressive manner,where there's been NO Liason with our TL about who's who's,and where our clients were,instead they "muscle" their way through...........with the 1000 yard stare,the little Protecs cut down BHD, style...some complete with cell phone attached,despite having been there several days before,knowing that we've been there for the past 3 months.........Proffesional courtesy can go a long way,but cutting up other PSD's doing their job,is ignorant,and disrespectful.........I don't really care if you PSD-ing for the President of the USA,or some Egyptian Computer geek,there to install software,acting proffesional and being courtious,and civil towards other Teams out there should be routine!!

[Silverbullet]

As I stated in another thread that was discussing behavior, good and bad, of PSD's in Iraq, I don't want to see any posts that state you hope someone gets shot up or blown up due to their behavior.

I have no problem pointing out piss poor behavior and discussing it.

[079E/R]

Echo Five Bravo is correct, there is in fact a position within the Aegis hierachy at regional detachment level called 'RSM', but it not Regimental Sergeant Major, it is Regional Security Manager. I'm not trying to take sides here, just pointing out the fact. Like Echo Five Bravo, I once worked for Aegis until I resigned.

I also concurr with Argyll in regards to the arrogance of some of the "said company's" personnel in Baghdad (as I know this is where he had most of his interaction with them). There are definately SOME over-inflated ego's in the city, particularly the teams operating out of the PCO compound in the I.Z. I distinctly remember our detail driving into the compound after a two hour drive into Baghdad from the detachment I was working out of, and recieving more menacing stares from the Aegis personnel than the LN's on the trip down, because we weren't the Baghdad crew.........but Echo is also right in saying that there are a few good dudes there.

I have to admit though the skateboard helmets do look ridiculous...............

[Argyll 50]

Without a doubt mate,without a doubt,generaly speaking the AEGIS blokes are good blokes, I think though they're under extreme pressure from their headshed, not to engage in discussions or dialogue with other PSD's, and that job only was the TL's....I'm fully aware of the horror stories from the North Region, where the Regional Manager took the piss, I have a transcript from a mate, from MSN that horrifies me, the trouble with AEGIS, is that they have such a large database to chose from, that the all to familiar "If you don't like it,there are 20 men waiting to take your place" song gets sung.

Spicer's got exactly what he want's, a Private Army, full of ex Guards officers, and SNCO's who don't know a fucking thing about Close Protection, who still think and behave like they're still serving, and expect to be treated so by the guys, and that's arrogant, ignorant and nepatism at it's worst.
Like I said, my run ins were Down South,Shaiba/Basrah and Nasiriyah,and it all depended on the TL's of the detail in question....

The Trophy video fiasco......well.....the results are that AEGIS, seem to have been cut back by about 10 teams, and Erinys have picked up these slots....

We don't have fancy names or rank structures for our Contract headshed,the main man is the Project Manager/STC(Security Team Chief).....all approachable, and very supportive of the guys on the ground.

[tboy]

I would also like to add on another note, if you are approaching a team dont just automatically think that the trunk monkey can identify you and try and roll past! I have lost count the amount of times teams fly up on your six and think just because they are driving a GMC or Pajero that they dont have to give some type of recognition via flag or VS 17.

[BoatHouseatHereford]

I would also like to add on another note, if you are approaching a team dont just automatically think that the trunk monkey can identify you and try and roll past! I have lost count the amount of times teams fly up on your six and think just because they are driving a GMC or Pajero that they dont have to give some type of recognition via flag or VS 17.


No shit, mate. My old team tried to fly past my new team a few weeks back. Talk about a clash of egos:eek: Damn, it took a few emails to settle that one down...

Argyll made a few good points above. I think the botom line is that there are some companies who suffer from an institutional arrogance, as opposed to that of individual members. Certain companies with certain high profile contracts using certain Little Birds :) push a doctrine of 'we are the best and most important, therefore everyone needs to get out of our way', and this is reflected by the attitudes of their team members because that is what they are told. Ive seen it on the ground a lot of times and it pisses me off no end. It wont change though.

I ceased to be overawed by a persons CV a long time ago. I dont care if you are ex Delta or Regt, or just a two year cop. We are all doing the same job in the same environment, and our clients are just as important to us as yours are to you. We ARE all on the same side, and the team you blow past giving the finger to today may well be the team pulling your ass out of a firefight tomorrow. Some people would do well to think about that.

I think we are all pretty much on the same wavelength here, anyway.

Argyll, I have seen a few Delta Force helmets sitting on dashboards but never come across a team wearing them. I think I would just be giggling the whole time if I was there. Who are they? PM me if you want, mate.

[Argyll 50]

Boathouse.........they begin with A,and end in S and EAGI in between......;)

[BoatHouseatHereford]

I'll keep an eye out. They shoudnt be hard to spot!

[Xdeth]

........
I ceased to be overawed by a persons CV a long time ago. I dont care if you are ex Delta or Regt, or just a two year cop. We are all doing the same job in the same environment, and our clients are just as important to us as yours are to you. We ARE all on the same side, and the team you blow past giving the finger to today may well be the team pulling your ass out of a firefight tomorrow. Some people would do well to think about that.

I think we are all pretty much on the same wavelength here, anyway.

Argyll, I have seen a few Delta Force helmets sitting on dashboards but never come across a team wearing them. I think I would just be giggling the whole time if I was there. Who are they? PM me if you want, mate.
Translation:

Translation:

I've ceased to be amazed by those that have lived lifelong commitments to excellence in their fields with experience in hot-spots around the world for that last twenty plus years. I'm here doing the job with the utmost professionalism I learned at the rocko clubbo school of PSD along with my experiences working professional EP in the finest hotels and resteraunts in the world. Even two year cops are on my team doing the tier one job, it 'aint hard, we roll politely from venue to venue and have never had a problem, we are good, others are just plain fucked up.

End Translation.


You gonna come pull someone out of a firefight with your eight guys, no air support, DM or full auto weapons with a bunch of stuff on them? What if it's at night or on a barricaded venue/neighborhood? No, your gonna sit there and hope someone with armor or air can help them, maybe big army, unless your two year cops all have solid infanty backgrounds and fireteam training, oh wait, they didn't teach that at the school of polite baggage handling did they.

What exactly is a delta force helmet by the way?

[Fewy_au]

Man, it doesnt matter if they have air support and are all 20 year SF vets or if they are "two year cops" as per say, if the shit hits the fan, as it has many times, any one who is willing to stop and help, wether or not he has a army or is by himself, has my tick.

We aint all going to get along and all companies have there good and their bad but regardless of our indifferances we are all on the same side and all equally important.

[BoatHouseatHereford]

Translation:

I've ceased to be amazed by those that have lived lifelong commitments to excellence in their fields with experience in hot-spots around the world for that last twenty plus years. I'm here doing the job with the utmost professionalism I learned at the rocko clubbo school of PSD along with my experiences working professional EP in the finest hotels and resteraunts in the world. Even two year cops are on my team doing the tier one job, it 'aint hard, we roll politely from venue to venue and have never had a problem, we are good, others are just plain fucked up.

End Translation.


You gonna come pull someone out of a firefight with your eight guys, no air support, DM or full auto weapons with a bunch of stuff on them? What if it's at night or on a barricaded venue/neighborhood? No, your gonna sit there and hope someone with armor or air can help them, maybe big army, unless your two year cops all have solid infanty backgrounds and fireteam training, oh wait, they didn't teach that at the school of polite baggage handling did they.

What exactly is a delta force helmet by the way?


Oh please dont tell me you are trying to start an internet fight. Give me a break with the bad ass bit.

Maybe I should clarify what I said (imagine me speaking really slow):

I have worked with many guys coming from what you call 'Tier One' units and backgrounds. They have ranged from excellent guys and fonts of knowledge, to oddball loners who no one wants to work with. I have every respect for guys who rise to the top of their profession, but the cross section of personalities is the same as you would find anywhere else. Just because you come from a certain background does not mean you are a good guy, particularly helpful, able to pass on your skills, or manage a company well. Many who ARE those things do not come from backgrounds you would not normally associate with what we do now. I have worked with ex Brit SAS guys who are complete cocks, and Ive worked with guys who were just street cops who take to it like a duck to water. Give me the easy-to-work-with guy any day. In case you havent noticed, PSDs dont do too much fast roping and HALO jumping. PSD is not a Tier One job; its a waste of an asset who would be much better off kicking in doors somewhere. Hence my earlier comment - coming from a certain background does not automatically get hero worship from me. Sorry if that makes you feel bad.

Regarding the firefight thing; it was basically an expression of solidarity with everyone else in theatre, not a direct assumption we would wade into any situation guns blazing. Perhaps you dont understand the concept of mutual respect.

I see you have been here for a while with your huge post count, which is great. You probably personally know guys from here. Good for you. That doesnt give you the right to talk to other people like shit. You come across like the kind of people we have been talking about. Touch a nerve maybe?

Save the bad ass shit for someone it works on, mate. This was a good thread with some good points. Now I fear its just going to deteriorate into a slagging match. Can we get back on topic, please?

[Argyll 50]

Delta Force Helmet= a helmet worn by Delta :D ..........you need to read the references to the Skateboard helmet,with guys walking around venues looking like extras from Blackhawk down......;)

[SOTB]

I'm here doing the job with the utmost professionalism I learned at the rocko clubbo school of PSD along with my experiences working professional EP in the finest hotels and resteraunts in the world. Even two year cops are on my team doing the tier one job, it 'aint hard, we roll politely from venue to venue and have never had a problem, we are good, others are just plain fucked up....

....oh wait, they didn't teach that at the school of polite baggage handling did they.Dude, it is a FACT that there are MANY people who are working the gig today that had neither the training nor experience to have been hired for it in a world where values and ethics would have ruled. HOWEVER, after more than 3 years, there are MANY of those who previously would not have been accepted -- including in the zones you refer to -- who are now squared-away and GTG. Some have sought out formal training, and some have received some pretty good schooling via OJT.

These guys aren't bitching about some jackass walking around with a dip in his lip and spitting on the sidewalk -- while this is dumbass with regards to behavior around a client or in his work area, it isn't "that" big a deal. No, these guys are referring to the people with the wide-eyed looks (read -- SCARED), who think that behind every corner lurks a fuckwad with a RPG, and who thinks that the rudeness and corner-cutting that has been adopted by many is not only appropriate but preferred in his type of work. The types of guys who think they are on "combat patrols" versus the gig they are being paid for -- most often PSD.

Would you condone the use of firing indiscriminately into a group of people when it is possible -- correct even -- to line your sights up on the badguy and just cap him? I don't think you would -- even knowing your sordid past and affection for rap music. Likewise, would you condone the type of behavior that is being commented here, like drawing down on a fellow PSD team, that only minutes before you had exchanged pleasantries with? Or continuing to point your weapon at what is CLEARLY a SUVload of gringo-looking MF'ers, when you KNOW you aren't going to pull the friggin trigger? Or walking into a venue without the slightest concept of an advance, and then thinking that the correct method of work is to walk around the site as if you were a porcupine on crack? Of course not.

As to helping a brother out, well damn dude, there are tons of us that have and will do shit like that. And it has nothing to do with heroism or valor. Its simply the right thing to do. I have stopped (alone and with my guys) on many an occasion to stand next to a frightened couple who are trying to use an ATM at night in a dimly-lit section of Mexico City. Or pulled up to an Army convoy and offer help securing them while they get their shit together. Hell, this morning I came across two poor soldiers stuck in the middle of Jalalabad Road with a broken KBR truck and two harried drivers (and surrounded by an ever-increasing number of curious onlookers). And today is THE day, that you would expect poor fucks like that to get zapped (what with the pres visiting and all -- and there IS a threat of a VBIED looking to do just that on that road today). I gladly turned around and pulled up to them, immediately increasing their firepower by 50%. And I was completely comfortable offering our QRF which would have been 5 minutes out -- and I did so without expecting anything in return. Its what we SHOULD do, right?

And while I don't have a lot of answers for you as to what I would have done if there had been hostilities going on, I can state that I would have still come to their aid. Hopefully I could think on the run well enough to not get myself dicked. But it wouldn't be the first time one of us has decided to do something that isn't the brightest thing, but is the RIGHT thing to do. It would sure make it a lot easier while your ride is getting trashed, if the guys you were helping weren't complete dickwads....

[Argyll 50]

SOTB..........superb post, I've been on the road, where a friendly callsign,both Military and PSD have pulled up, jumped out and pulled cordon, for a simple tyre change, without so much as a word spoken,just a simple appreciative nod, a mutual smile, and it's job on, back to work.

It doesn't matter who has the biggest dick in town, it's all about education behind it!!

[079E/R]

BoatHouseatHereford, have you actually had any interaction with the BW guys, or as you put it: "Certain companies with certain high profile contracts using certain Little Birds push a doctrine of 'we are the best and most important......"??? You will find that the majority of them are decent, affiable and approachable guys. And I think at times we all wish we were afforded the luxury of air support. One of their QRF teams that regularly visits a venue on the same days as my detail exchanged numbers with us the other day in case of the worst so they could assist us if required. I think that this is indicative of the type of people they have working for them. Sure, all companies have their idiots, but you can't tar them all with the same brush.

As for the comment about the 2 year cop??? Well you are a braver man than me pal, I have worked with LEO's, beat cops in the past and will never again. As Xdeth stated, fireteam compentency/ infantry minor tactics IS a minimal requirement for working over here. Classic example: Yeager, ERMS 'Ambush'.

[Silverbullet]

Boathouse,
FYI, while having many posts does not carry wt here, having BTDT below the user name does.

I ask you to remember you are new here. I can assure you Xdeth is not an assclown and you didn't strike a nerve with him.

You have stated some good points so far. I don't agree with all of them, especially the part about not caring what someones background is, but I'm willing to listen to your POV.

Thanks.

[godfather]

You gonna come pull someone out of a firefight with your eight guys, no air support, DM or full auto weapons with a bunch of stuff on them? What if it's at night or on a barricaded venue/neighborhood? No, your gonna sit there and hope someone with armor or air can help them, maybe big army, unless.....

Come on, don't be a dick just to be a dick. I remember a night when you and I asked for air (we worked for a company with air you know) cuz we had 4 dead, and a team still out after dark one vehicle down. Not only did that company not give us the air, they did not allows us to roll to help get the guys in trouble. But we (you and me :)) were willing to drive our asses right back out to the nastiest place in country to get those guys, with NO armor, and NO air NO auto weapons and NO night vision. Course we going to roll anyway, with or without permition, but lucky for us(and them) the guys showed up.

[Silverbullet]

Come on, don't be a dick just to be a dick. I remember a night when you and I asked for air (we worked for a company with air you know) cuz we had 4 dead, and a team still out after dark one vehicle down. Not only did that company not give us the air, they did not allows us to roll to help get the guys in trouble. But we (you and me :)) were willing to drive our asses right back out to the nastiest place in country to get those guys, with NO armor, and NO air NO auto weapons and NO night vision. Course we going to roll anyway, with or without permition, but lucky for us(and them) the guys showed up.

He is being a dick just to be a dick, but that's besides the point:D

[godfather]

To know the man is to love him :D

[SOTB]

I think what he really needs is a hug -- and to STOP listening to that damned rap music!:D

[BoatHouseatHereford]

Boathouse,
FYI, while having many posts does not carry wt here, having BTDT below the user name does.

I ask you to remember you are new here. I can assure you Xdeth is not an assclown and you didn't strike a nerve with him.

You have stated some good points so far. I don't agree with all of them, especially the part about not caring what someones background is, but I'm willing to listen to your POV.

Thanks.


SB,

I have no interest in getting into verbal sparring matches on the net. I think we are all above that. Xdeth questioned my credentials, so I felt the need to re assert my point of view.

However, in the interests of maintaining harmony and the fact I am the FNG, I shall watch what I say. I am not out to be confrontational. I am here to exchange opinions and ideas with (sometimes) like minded people working in the same field, which is what I like about this place. I would like to learn a bit more from here if I can. Thanks for the heads up re that. Duly hoisted aboard.

Regarding the matter before the court: I work with five or six guys who are ex BW, including one who was at Najaf, and a couple who were involved in the incidents I mentioned earlier. I've had it from the horses mouth, so I think Ive had pretty good info. Over the course of working in Iraq I have met many of their teams at various venues and also chatted a fair bit one-on-one with some of their guys, who to a man were all good buggers and very easy to talk to. I am dying for a ride in one of those choppers, and I wish like hell we had them.

However, on the other side of the coin, I was there when a Bremer detail guy came out of his way to try and shove one of our boys, after we had moved aside, inside the embassy. My team has had more than one confrontation with the Mamba team that runs up the BIAP road and consistently refuses to respect any other teams boundaries. I have had a guy from the ambassadors detail tell us to "get the fuck out of the way" when we were stuck in a traffic jam at the Marine CP outside the embassy and there was nowhere to move to. Things like this, I think, point to what I mentioned before...an institutional problem, not specifically an attitude of every member. I do believe, as someone mentioned earlier, that the 10 percent rule is in effect. Problem is, I seem to always miss the other 90 percent :D .

I'd be the first to admit Ive made my fair share of cock ups and by no means does my team do everything right. Far from it, and our debriefs are sometimes like kids fighting in a sandpit. But I would like to think we TRY to respect other teams abilities and boundaries. If someone indicates we should stay back, then we stay back.

Anyhow, over to you guys.

[godfather]

That being said.............I don't believe it takes a deltaforceseal to do most of the gigs out there, but I'll tell you this, without a knowledge of small unit tactics you are not going to be my first pick. When it all goes to shit (and we are just grunts in a firefight) and I tell you to do a bounding overwatch or high low or australian peel or cross coverage or shift fire etc. I really need to know that I am understood. This is where SOP's come in (verbiage among other things), but as a TL it is not my job to teach these things to a "trained" member of my team. When I left the sandbox last time I did not have a single combat arms MOS on the team (other than myself). In my mind that was unsat. A one week class does not constitute being trained

[Xdeth]

Every thread you posted since coming here references some problem you had with someone or someones gear issue. I too have had people block my vehicle or call me a name, other, I didn't appreciate it, but I didn't develop a complex over it either. I DO appreciate the sentiment expresed by you all in wanting to help out someone in real trouble, but I appreciate more the right equipment and people to get it done without the whole, 'one way ticket' mission mentality ;)

I had saber security top dogs chew my ass for a good 20 minutes due to something that another firm did, all in the name of PR and keeping good relations with others. They were friendly but took their perceptions out on me and my guys, I didn't rat out the guys that did the thing they thought we did, and I don't harbor any ill will to saber, that's life in the box.

I'm not saving the bad ass shit for anyone, you have a problem that you brought here with you, there is a reason for everything that happens if you care to do the math, if that upsets you, you're too sensitive. Working with 6 ex BW guys means what exactly, 6 guys that were fired have some perspective that might surpise us, I doubt it.

PSD doesn't require a supersecretsquirrel background, this is true, and most of the daily work done by a doctor can also be done by a nurse, I think you see the analogy that is coming, it's like that with any industry if you really care to consider it, or do the hiring.

[Xdeth]

Every thread you posted since coming here references some problem you had with someone

Obviously I realize this the topic of the thread, I meant to post this in the other thread you wrote into, where, as some saw, I had another reply to you that I eventually deleted because I didn't want to get into it, then you posted again in here and I just couldn't stop myself. :D

[BoatHouseatHereford]

I didnt start this thread. Norts did.

Its a topic I noticed and its something I happen to believe strongly in, thats why I joined SOCNET and joined the discussion. There were some good points brought up and its interesting to see differing points of view, yours included. I hold no malice against anyone here or in our trade...theres always a cold beer or a hot coffee waiting at my hooch for anyone from here :)

I just enjoy getting a kick or a giggle out of the different approaches to our job you see around the place. Im sure a lot of guys around here do too. I dont 'have a problem'. I just relate my own experiences, which with the group we were discussing were in the main negative. Thats just the way it is, no worries.

Anyway, mate, we are talking around in cirlcles here. If anyone can add anything new to the discussion, then Im all for it. If not, see you around the traps;)

[Massgrunt]

theres always a cold beer or ... waiting at my hooch for anyone from here :)

Grid, please! :D

[norts]

My team has had more than one confrontation with the Mamba team that runs up the BIAP road and consistently refuses to respect any other teams boundaries. I have had a guy from the ambassadors detail tell us to "get the fuck out of the way" when we were stuck in a traffic jam at the Marine CP outside the embassy and there was nowhere to move to.


There are idiotic crews that run irish every day. Thats what I started the thread for, but not to start everyone off complaining about this company or that company, but to find out what other people felt was good manners on the road.

Personally I have never had a problem with BW when working. I know a few guys that work for them and they are all good guys. I have more call than many to hate BW, but at the end of the day while all PSD are equal, some are more equal than others.

In baghdad that means the Ambassador detail has right of way. We all know the rules here and while USAID crew does not have to give way to the Bearing Point crew or visa versa, they both have to give way to a few select details. Might is right here and I for one dont test a Bradley gunners patience because I feel like I need to get somewhere quicker than him. There are very few clients in the country that are actually tracked and targeted by the insurgency. Those that have had the pleasure of protecting them understand how frustrating it can be to have some second rate detail running bizarre drills that prevents you from effectively getting your principal from A to B in the safest manner. When dealing with that everyday understandably some people lose patience. I hate being on the recieving end of it, but I still understand it.

[079E/R]

Speaking of bizarre drills, what is the purpose of the latest 'craze' that a lot of details seem to be adopting on Irish? I am referring to the S turns that a lot of details adopt if traffic is slow rolling. Aside from drawing more attention to themselves, I really cannot understand this tactic at all. It is pathetic. How can a 'window licker' or 'trunk monkey' effectively engage a target if required whilst the vehicle is peforming this 'manouvre'? Another thing which defies my logic is the stowage of spare wheels/tyre's on the roof of the vehicle as well as the trolley-jack. Have these people considered the possibility that a burst from a gun might puncture the tyres, or the shrapnel from a 155 round placed on the side of the road? What then if you have a flat/blow-out and both of your spares are fu@&ed? Or the possibility of a 45 pound jack hitting you on the head as you are trying to take it off the roof of a Ford Excursion when you are 5ft 7 inches?

Either way, the statement is true, there are definately a lot of idiotic crews on the roads - running on pot-luck.

[SOTB]

Speaking of bizarre drills, what is the purpose of the latest 'craze' that a lot of details seem to be adopting on Irish? I am referring to the S turns that a lot of details adopt if traffic is slow rolling. Aside from drawing more attention to themselves, I really cannot understand this tactic at all.I haven't seen it, but I'm sitting here on the shitter trying to imagine it. I "suppose" they think that if they remain mobile, snipers can't line up on them and their movement prevents other vehicles from getting alongside? I'd like to hear from someone doing it as to "why" as well.Another thing which defies my logic is the stowage of spare wheels/tyre's on the roof of the vehicle as well as the trolley-jack.If you are high-pro anyway, why not just put the tires on the front and rear of your vehicles? And/or, underneath? It would add a little more cover from frag and SAF.

I would not want my jack to be on the rook, largely because I figure that it would suck having to deal with getting that fucker up there before/after dealing with the tire (or whatever reason I needed the jack). Also, imagine that during a shitty situation and numerous violent manuevers, that you somehow lost your jack. But you still took fire and now have a flat. I suppose everyone is still carrying the OEM jack, but it certainly isn't gonna be as fast as the cool one....

[BoatHouseatHereford]

The 'weave' is a drill a few teams do. Ive spoken to a couple who do it and the theory is that it is a far off deterrent that lets traffic know its a PSD up front, as they arent running trunk monkeys and dont dig cracking the doors.

Ive wondered about having the jack on the roof. The spare tyre can understand, as it gives you more room inside for gear and cross-decking. I just wonder though how you get a 100 pound plus jack off the roof in a hurry without splitting someones head open??:eek:

[CA SGT]

The jack, I agree is much faster stowed below. Tires, well, both points are valid. I kind of actually like the idea of front and rear spares if mounts could be fashioned. As it stands now, we have tire changes, from out of the vehicle, to back into the vehicle, completed in 1:30 flat. Configuration is jack in rear and spares on top. (Off topic I know...My apologies)

[Polypro]

We had a few Excursions, not a lot of room...tire was on top. Green Slime? :)

P

[doitforjonny]

we had this exact discussion in my team a year ago, about what to do with the tire.

we figured to get all scientific on it, like what was the scope of our mission and what we might realistically encounter in our particular situation.

-we never left baghdad or environs unless by air
-our plan for contact was to drive off really fast without stopping until we were safe (sarcastic)
-if we couldnt do that because of vehicular failure, crossdeck
-since we were in baghdad we woudlnt ever be too far from somewhere 'safe'

why even move the tire from its factory position if tire changing is never a part of your tactical plan, and is purely an administrative function to be performed in a safe area? why make the jack a quickie access? if im only gonna change the tire on my time i would rather have that large metal object strapped and secured as tightly as possible so in case of rollover(or other such maneuvers as might send it careening somewhere) a) it doesnt bounce around the inside rearranging everyones noggins and b)its known where it is at if it is ever needed, but needs relatively no maintenance as far making it look pretty when it is strapped exterior.

now given a long haul open road scenario we prolly wouldve adopted something different(shrug) we werent