Need some help here

[SpyderMonkey]

Im 18, on a fixed budget and im looking for a semi auto assault rifle for home protection, i need something that will hold at least 20 rounds. So far the only 2 i can think of for my price range are a semi auto AK or variant there of or a ruger mini 14. Could any of you suggest any rifles with reasonable accuracy and dependability. Keep in mind i am on a fixed budget and cant hall out 1200 dollars for a assault rifle. All help is appreciated :-)

[Silent Fart]

I reccomend the Mini-14 ranch rifle. I have the stainless steel synthetic model. It is plenty accurate and is light and compact enough for any situation. You can find all kinds of high cap mags for it to. Avoid the USA brand. They jam every other round! The 1 in 9 twist will shoot accurately any 223 round you feed it . I read an article in a magazine stating that the same model i have is the best gun value for your money. Hope I helped! Let me know.


[This message has been edited by Silent-1 (edited 03-28-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Silent-1 (edited 03-28-2000).]

[recce_o]

Why would anyone need an assault rifle for home defence? It is not going to look very good in court after you've blown away some 17 year old punk armed with a screw driver with your AK-47. I would think that a pistol would be much better suited for this kind of close quarter application.

Now, if you just want an assault rifle because it's cool, hey, why not?

I have never been impressed with the Mini-14 for the following reasons:

1. I never seen one group less than 6" at 100 yds off the bench.
2. There are no reliable after market magazines except for the one's made by Ruger, which are exceedingly rare and expensive.
3. With iron sights it is even less accurate because the front blade is so large.
4. No flash supressor.
5. Magazine changes are awkward compared to M16 family.
6. Exposed action is easily fouled by crud and dirt.
7. It doesn't take much dirt to cause malfunction.
8. There is a reason why it hasn't been adopted by any military around the world: it's designed for gopher shooting, not military applications.

[jcollettusa]

I agree with recce_o 100%. You will never need an assault rifle for home security, and if you are on a tight budget than a good pistol is the way to go.

But if you just want an assault rifle for your own ammusement, go right ahead. I think your best bet would be to go to a gun show. They usually have a wide range of weapons and some fairly reasonable prices.

------------------
Semper Fi

[veil]

IMHO only one weapon is suitable for home defense : a shotgun. You'll allmost certainly hit someone with it and the kill-probablity isn't too high with the right ammo (beanbags, birdshot). Can't commit suicide with it either(well its hard at least) http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

/Spitfire

[k_miller]

SpyderMonkey:

If you feel that you need a long gun for home defense, go with a shotgun. It is a very effective tool for close in defense. You can also have slugs available if you need to extend out your effective range a bit.

Remington & Mossberg all have great shotguns at a low price.

Regardless of what weapon you choose, just remember that the most important things are live fire practise and proper training.

Just my advice. Take it for what its worth.

k_miller

[Silent Fart]

reece_o
you said you have never seen a mini-14 group less than 6 inches at 100 yards. Well pick up a firearms for law enforcement magazine! The all-weather mini-14 (ss-synthetic) with a 5 shot group at 100 yards using PMC 55-gr HP into 2.2 inches! The largest group being 5.5 inches from the 40-gr cor-bon hp. And if that's not adequate enough from a small assult rifle, then what is. As for your comment about the exposed action, it only makes it easier to clean! As for the M-16 everything is internal. If I remember correctly, troops were bitching about the M-16 because if it got a grain of sand in the action it would jam. Explane to me why the Navy Seals use the M-14 in desert terrain, and it has the same action as a Mini-14. I think they would use the most reliable weapon for the terrain, wich is the open action of the M-14 & Mini-14. It is also the issued rifle to the Texas DPS who need a rifle that is accurate.

[This message has been edited by Silent-1 (edited 03-28-2000).]

[recce_o]

Silent:

Nothing personal, but I just don't like the Mini-14:

1. I have no idea why the SEALs would select the M14. My suspicion is because there happens to be a ton of these weapons in the U.S. inventory. All I've seen is the M14 get slagged on this board by people in the know.

2. Many police forces use the Mini 14 because it is cheap. Too often the bean counters get the final say, not the cops on the street.

3. Cops don't spend much time crawling around in the dirt, so reliability under these conditions isn't generally a concern. I suppose the same can be said about the home defence context, so I will give you that.

3. You can be sure that the rifle that was provided to the gun magazine was specially selected and not "off the rack". And even then the groupings aren't that impressive. Furthermore, the gun magazines all have a vested interest in giving a good review because their primary source of revenue is advertising from gun makers. Ask yourself when was the last time you saw an extremely negative review of a firearm? I can't even remember that last time.

4. The Mini-14 is not designed to be frequently disassembled. Consequently, every time you take it apart and put it back together you lose a tiny bit of accuracy as the fit loosens up.

5. The notion that an open action is better in the desert is not correct. It is hard enough to keep the open action clear of crud in a temperate areas, let along the desert. The urban legend about a grain of sand jamming an M16 is just that: an urban legend. I've heard the same thing about the Mini-14, but I'm somewhat more inclined to believe it in that case.

Recce

P.S. Unless they've changed recently, the rifling on the Ranch Rifle is one turn in 7 inches.

[SpyderMonkey]

well, as far as the pistol comments, like i said im only 18 and you need to be 21 to purchase a pistol.

when i say "assault rifle" i mean a semi auto that will hold more then 20 rounds.

As far as the shotgun statements, I already have a 870, I have had to take it out a couple of times already and frankly its somewhat heavy and not extremley monuverable, dont get me wrong, there is no way in hell i will ever get rid of it, it is a great gun but as far as my living conditions its not extremely great for it. And as far as follow up shots, i want a semi auto, something that i dont have to pump. And one other thing about it, frankly an assault rifle is more intimidateing then a shotgun.

Getting off topic here, as for the seals and the m14 topic in the desert, I remember hearing that they used that gun in desert terrains is because its a long barren area without much foliage and a .308 will travel farther and more accureatly then a .223

[Mac679]

Spyder, exactly on with the M14 vs M16 in the desert issue. I remember reading somewhere that spotters in Desert Storm traded in their M16s for M21's so they could back up the sniper's shots effectively considering the open and rather flat terrain. ( This does not constitute an endorsement of the M21 :-)
Silent-1, somewhere under Assault Weapons you'll find a topic dealing with the M14, it basically kills the whole argument of the M14 as a weapon. I have heard good things about Ruger's Mini 14 so I'm not going to argue against it, namely because I have no experience with it. My personal choice for a .223 rifle is Daewoo's DR200. 800 rounds and I'm still waiting for my first malfunction.
Mac

[josepy]

SpyderMonkey -

You called on the board looking for advice. Now you are arguing with the advice.

Not too smart brother.

[PathfinderJr3325]

Gents:

Anybody consider a post-ban AR-15? You can get one of Eagle Arm's postbans or an Olympic Arms PC- rifle for a fair tarriff.
M-16 preban mags are easy to find, and the
rifle is snappy to mount. As an added +, When
we finally manage to vote a govt. that has it's head and it's ass correctly co-located,
you can get all of those naughty goodies like a collapsible stock, flash suppressor and the like.

For housework now, stick to the 870. The neighbors will thank you.

[SpyderMonkey]

josepy

how am i argueing, I only said that i cant even get a pistol and already have a shotgun and need advice on a affordable semi auto, so far its been pretty constructive, i should do more homework on the mini 14 and look into the post ban ar15 and daewoo dr2000.

[realpolypro]

M-14 being slagged?? "Honey, have you seen my waders anywhere?"

Polypro

RLTW!

[xcop]

Spyder-Thought I could add a little to the pot here. As an LEO/SWAT trained/Firearms Instructor for thirteen years (left field to go into private enterprise) I have some background in both performance of weapons in an urban environment and liability.

First, the advice of a shotgun for home defense, although well meaning, is one of the most common pieces of bad advice given out. The shotgun, as you have noted, is heavy and does not manipulate well in the confines of a residence. In urban police work it is generally left for use by the last man in an entry team, for rear security, or perimeter use by marginally trained officers (I know, I know, it worried me too). The other problem, which some sort of hinted around but got wrong is penetration. The most common loading in a "combat" shotgun is 12 gauge 00 or 000 buck. We have conclusivlely proven that neither will hold all of the pattern on a human torso at more than yards. Although this is much greater that most distances inside a structure, you may find the action moving outdoors. Anyway, after 15 yards, you will have pellets that can be very lethal at over 100 yards downrange outside of your target area--that is liability. Further, on the interior, 00/000 pellets will not, contrary to popular conception, be stopped by drywall. Got kids or other occupants? Live in an apartment? Houston, we have a problem. If you put slugs in the mix, then you amplify this problem by at least a factor of ten. I will note that *some* loads can be used for home defense more safely than 00/000 buck--if you are limited to the 870 I would suggest #4 for close range--the SAS used it very successfully in Malyasia way back when and it eliminates many of the penetration problems, but not the spread problems. BTW, as far as the shotgun being an "area weapon" this is total bravo sierra. As anyone who has worked with a quality pump or auto shotgun is aware, patterns, especially at close ranges, are incredibly tight. You can not just point the weapon in the direction of the threat and let it go--you *will* miss. If this seems in contrast to the previously mentioned spread problem, it is not--generally with a good barrel the problem at 15 yard + comes from a single, sometimes double "flyer", with the rest of the pattern still pretty tight in the chest/torso area.

My advice--you are on the right track. Police agencies nationally are moving from the MP-5 system to .223 as an entry weapon not because of stopping power, as the military are, but because it has been found that the 9mm, especially in hardball, penetrates far more in most structures that the .223! Sound absurd? Extensive testing has been done and shown this to be true. As far as a platform, I have no experience with the Daewoo, and have been underwhelmed by the Mini-14. A Bushmashter AR-15 carbine version (16 inch upper, fixed stock, post ban) can be had for around half the $1200 you mentioned. That would be my choice. Save your $'s, and in the interim, load #4 in the pump gun, get out to the range to determine exactly how your gun patterns (can differ widely) and practice! Good luck and watch your six.

PS - Sorry this post is so long, felt like some background was needed.

[PathfinderJr3325]

if he was 21, I'd suggest he did what I do, ie: keep a handgun, FLASHLIGHT, some armor and a cellphone ready in case I have to clear the apt, and keep the shotgun or rifle in the bedroom for when I or my significant other needs to secure the safe room.