What gun is this

[Yossi]

This topic may help all of us post questions about weapons’ identification.
My fist question:

What is the lmg hold by that guy from Israeli Special Forces in this picture?
Is it a Russian rpd?
http://www.specialoperations.com/foreign/Israel/Special_Mission/Default.html (the top picture).

Thanks

Yossi

[Ice Cube]

Looks like it's the AL-7. The 5.45x39mm predecessor to the AK-74. I could be wrong though, the gun blends very nicely with the guy's camo.

[Triggerfifty]

Yossi,

DO you know anything about the missile warfare unit that is mentioned on that page?? Reply email to Dnmchls@aol.com please

[JY]

Hi Yossi;

Right on the head the front sight an the belt bag(modified from FN MAG58 for use on the RPD) are giveaways. def. a RPD modified slightly fo IDF use.

Take care...Jim

[Yossi]

Thanks everyone for the info.

Two more questions on this subject:

1- What kind of ammo does the rpd use?

2- Why does the idf use the rpd when it has their new imi Negev lmg (and before that the FN mimimi lmg)?

Thanks again

Yossi

[Yossi]

Triggers fifty

please, see my response post on the missiles unit in fornet under Israel where it belongs.

[seb]

The Russian RPD Light Machine Gun takes the
7.62mm rd and my guess on your second question is many of its arab neighbors also
use this LMG in there military's.Later

[Yossi]

Seb

Most of the militaries in the Middle East also use ak47 but the idf doesn’t, not to mention other soviet based arsenal used by the Arab forces. There’s got to be something more to it then that. Maybe for denial operations?

The main disadvantage as far as I see is that there is not one caliber use throughout the team. I mean everybody use 5.56 mm ss109 m4 and Negev (that can use m4 mags) and this guy use 7.62 rpd.

Bth, does 7.62 use by the rpd is 7.62 NATO or “short” soviet 7.62 (like the ak47)?

Yossi

[TR]

Yossi,

7.62 Soviet is 7.62x39mm and NATO's 7.62 is 7.62x51mm. Don't think anyone has rechambered the AK's or RPD's in 7.62x51mm-not sure what the recoil would do to anyone trying to fire one on full auto!

:-)

Hope this helps

T.R.

[Yossi]

Thanks for the info t.r

Any idea why the idf still uses the rpd when they the Negev lmg?

Yossi

[TR]

Yossi,

It's hard to say why really, yes a lot of their neighbors and enemies use Warsaw Pact grade weapons and equipment. So certainly it might make sense to maintain familiarity with these weapon in case of war. As well as keeping stocks to be used in event of war.
If your supply lines are overrun you've got weapons to use in such a scenario.

T.R.

[JY]

Hi Yossi;

it's common pratice for SF units to ued the enemy's weapons, the sound and evidence left by such weapons is familiar to them and they think it is their own firing, and any brsaa or links that may be found. Each weapon has it's own firing signiture and after you are exposed to them you can tell what weapon is firing. It's another way to camouflage you presence. Plus easy to resupply ammo while behind the lines 8)

take care Yossi...Jim

[Yossi]

I understand, but going alone with line of thought, why use m4, Negev lmg and other western arsenal?
You can equip the entire SF team with ak47’s and rpd’s. I mean, you carry rpd on the on hand and a distinctive Israeli Negev and American m24 sws on the other hand?

Yossi

[JY]

Hi Yossi;

A lot of times the entire team will be euipt with the eastern block weapons, AK's, RPDs, RPKs, even the SVD(usually wearing similar uniforms to the Terrs, like the Hamas stripped camo). At Others only the squad automatics for more covert ops where the RPD/RPK would be used in suppressing fire for the team to retreat. At other times when stealth is not as important the IDF regular issue weapons will be carried and regular IDF olive uniforms worn. SF units at times have to blend in both visibly and sound wise to the enemy at a distance and close up.

I have worked in the area a lot and can tell you they are very successful in their ops and one thing the IDF excells at is adaptation and modification. I don't want to go to deep in their ops/tactics as I respect their OPSEC.

If I can help further, please feel free to ask. Take care...Jim

[Yossi]

Jy

Thanks for the response.

In your previous post “At others only the squad automatics for more covert ops where the RPD/RPK would be used in suppressing fire for the team to retreat”

I don’t understand, if the team has to retreat it will probably also return fire from it’s m4 and therefor revealing his true identity, so what is the point in carry only soviet SAW? The enemy already knows it’s not one of their own.

Yossi

[JY]

Hi Yossi;

Dependant on the operation and location, the use of 5.56mm in shoulder weapons would be acceptable, but not say the Mag. or Negev as SAWs. A good many M16s from Lebenon and other formerly US backed threat countries are now in the hands of terrorists. Also included are US weapons captured in RVN being sold to those groups by PAVN (Peoples Army VN). It is one of the two most widely distributed weapons, the other of course the AK family.

So use of the M4 will not compromise an op if brass is found or firing signiture, as a lot are in use by different factions. The Galil on the other hand leaves distictive marks on the fired brass that quickly ID's it as IDF (as does any weapon based on the AK system).

US SF forces operate in the same manner dependant on the operation and AO (area of operation). When tou wish to blend in you carry and dress as the targets, this is very true on a long range penetration that may last several days which increases the likelyhood of enemy observation and even possible contact.

Hope this helps Yossi, as always feel free to ask if I can assist, take care...Jim

[Yossi]

What is the weapon these guys are carrying (in the first 3 pictures) is that paint gun version of the m4?
http://www.specialoperations.com/foreign/Israel/Civilian_and_Police.html/Gallery.htm

Thanks in advance

Yossi

[JY]

Hi Yossie;

Good eye some are the M4 paint ball guns, I know that many were purchased for training by Israel nat. Police, some appear to be regular, hard to say as all have some sort of dummy magazine below receiver.

catch you latter, take care...Jim

[Yossi]

I have another question:

Why would they need a paint ball version of the m4? I heard that you can switched the m4’s barrel into a barrel firing painted wax bullets, which are more accurate and realistic then the paint balls (you actually feel the punch). Plus that way the operator can use its own issued weapon rather then a paint ball clone.

There is a big m4 paint ball version picture here:
http://www.specialoperations.com/foreign/Israel/Schools.html

Btw, jy, I have a question for you in snipernet>sniper rifles> bolt Vs auto sniper rifles.

Thanks in advance

Yossi

[JY]

Hi Yossie;

The barrel on the M4 isn't easy to change, the simunition round and the wax are fired through regular barrels, they cause a BIG punch, plus the weapons are fouled heavily when they are used and can mess up the gas system. The other draw back to using the actual weapon is functioning, the paint ball will function semi auto without modification and full auto if desired by the end users. while the actual weapon needs more chamber preasure to assure semi auto fire resulting a higher impact energy when hitting an operator causing possible injury at CQB ranges. This can result even when heavy padding and helmets are used. The other factor is that when using the standard M4 regular ball ammo can be accidently mixed in resulting in fatal ities, IMHO better to use the paint balls you get plenty of live fire training using your standard weapon with out endangering your team mates.

Posted to you Snipernet question, take care Yossie...Jim

[SOTICgrad]

You guys were talking earlier in the postings about the RPD and the caliber was misstated.

In fact the RPD IS 7.62 mm.

But it IS NOT 7.62x39 it is 7.62x54 rimmed.

7.62x39 is in use in the AK 47 series

[JY]

Hi SOTICgrad;

Actually the RPD(Ruchnoi Pulemet Degtyaeva) IS a belt fed light machine gun in caliber 7.62X39mm not the 7.62X54R (or 7.62X53mm Russian designation) This weapon was replaced in the Soviet Army in the early 1960's by the RPK (Ruchnoi Pulemet Kalshnikova) a standard kalashnikov box magazine fed weapon also in 7.62X39mm.

The belt fed 7.62X54mmR general purpose machine gun is the PKM (Modernizirovanniyi Pulemet Kalshnikova). this weapon is easy to identify as the bipod is mounted on the gas system instead of at the muzzle as on the RPD, has a flash suppressor, sheet metal constructed receiver as opposed to machined, and a skeletonized butt instead of the "club foot" of the RPD, The PKM also lacks handguards that are present on the 7.62X39mm RPD, in addition the pistol grip of the PKM is pure AK while the RPD is not(being designed by Degtyareva not a big suprise)

18Bgrad, et al...Jim, Sine Pari



[This message has been edited by JY (edited 11-24-1999).]

[Yossi]

Thanks everyone for the info.

Speaking about LMG’s, does someone know what is the difference between the imi Negev lmg and the FN MIMIMI lmg?

Externally they look almost identical. They are some good pictures of the Negev here:
http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/Israel/Ground_Force/Golany_Gallery.htm

Thanks in advance

Yossi

[SOTICgrad]

Jim,

A case of fingers moving before the brain engages. You are, of course, correct. RPD does fire the 7.62x39, otherwise known as the M-1943 soviet round.

I was scanning through the earlier posts fast and had a user malfunction, causing a rectal cranial infarction. "The stupid shall be punished." And lo, I was.

In fact all, Jim is right on da money all around. The basic PK was introduced in 1964, as was the RPK although it was produced in 61. The RPK is their squad automatic weapon, while the PK series is their LMG, equivalent to the M-60.

Both are supposed to be replaced with the RPK-74, which is the updated RPK in 5.45. I'd bet they have the same reluctance in former Warsaw Pact armies at this, as we do about getting rid of the M-60. SAW was gonna replace it, but now we've got both AND the MAG-58/M-240. Always really liked the MAG-58, screw calling it a 240.

[TR]

HEH

It happens-the brain seizes up and an error creeps out.

:-)

The one that's interesting is this Unified 6mm LMG Russia has developed but does not seem intent on doing anything with (basically look like an RPK-74 with a longer barrel)...

T.R.

[jeff]

JY
The sims kits that we use are very easy to change out. They consist of a different upper reciever for our M-4s, complete with bolt carrier. The sims upper reciever has a weaver mount so we can put all our do dads sights on there as we would on our normal M4s. It fires a 9mm sim using a special magazine. They come in blue and red and they hurt like a bitch when you get hit. We were our standard body armor and helmet with a face shield.
I think your probably refering to the blue plastic ammo. It requires you to change your bolt on your M4 and it does foul your weapon a bit more than standard ball ammo. But it is good for limited ranges and places where you don't want to much penetration, ie an airplane. Got kinda winded sorry
Jeff

[JY]

Hi Jeff;

You hit that one on the head, or some other tender part...ouch! I'm "familiar" with the uppers in a painful way 8( My references were of Israel Defense Force use of the paint ball M4's and that you could not change barrels on a standard upper that easy for use of the simunitions, and then return the weapon to it's original form. This combined with their funding problems rule out the purchase of the new uppers and the simunitions to use in same. Making the paintball "M4s" the best alternative economy wise.

take care Jeff...Jim

[Yossi]

Is the LMG, carried by the Israeli SF Sayeret Nahal’s operative in this picture (the third picture form the top- in front of the tank), a soviet RPD too?
http://www.specialoperations.com/foreign/Israel/Ground_Force/Nahal/Default.htm

Thanks in advance

Yossi

[JY]

Hi Yossie;

That's the ID on the weapon, the main things to ID it are the "club foot" butt stock and the belt feed, along with the absence of a flash suppressor. If a clearer view is shown the reciver is a different design than the AK style the round "knob" on the gas system is also a good ID point(caliber 7.62X39mm.

catch you latter, take care...Jim

[Yossi]

Here is a hard one:

In this picture, in the imp.com site, the guy on the right (which according to the text is an ex IDF’s paratrooper) is holding a SMG which looks to me like HK MP5.
http://www.imp.co.il/cgi-bin/web_store.cgi?page=salesmen.htm&cart_i d=6467052_30357217195_129031830086_24399 (http://www.imp.co.il/cgi-bin/web_store.cgi?page=salesmen.htm&cart_id=6467052_30357217195_129031830086_24399)

My questions are:

1. Can someone please give a positive weapon’s ID?

2. If the weapon is indeed a MP5, how can this guy have it since the IDF don’t use mp5?

Thanks in advance

Yossi

[This message has been edited by Yossi (edited 01-12-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Yossi (edited 01-12-2000).]

[Yossi]

Posted twice by mistake. sorry.

[This message has been edited by Yossi (edited 01-12-2000).]

[JY]

Hi Yossie;

The general configuration of the weapon looks similar to the MP5SD, tried enlarging the photo but is to pixelated to get clear view. So could be other weapon, but most probable a MP5. Best I can do on this one buddy.

Catch you latter, take care...Jim

[shurefire]

I took a look at that picture as well and it would definetly be in the MP5 family. It looks to me that the gun was spray painted with OD or something similiar. It doesn't look long enough from the magazine to the end of the barrel to be an SD, seems to me that there is something mounted near the barrel-maybe a flashlight or laser module. You can tell it's definetly an MP5, Jim was right.

Shure

[baboon]

In one of the pages on Israeli SOF on this site it says the IDF doesn't use H&K weapons " for political reasons". This is obviously untrue, otherwise why would Israel buy German submarines?

[veil]

Definitely not an MP5. The mag is too short, the barrel too stubby and the way the pistol grip is connected to the receiver doesnt quite fit... My bet is a weird Greasegun conversion (9mm perhaps - a combo of the remaining sten/uzi ammo and american supplies?) or a silenced Skorpion (dont ask me where they got it...lol). Actually the receiver/housing looks alot like a stengun, but the magazine location is impossible on a sten. Beats me.

-Veil

[JY]

Hi Veil;

Enlarged the photo in the weapon area(baddly streaked to cover ID of operator or artistic maybe)the weapon is being held on angle with the magazine base plate toward camera. But the angle clealy shows the MP5 cocking had in correct cresent shape as for MP5, and the reinforce bars on MP5 plastic type trigger housing ar visable, also looks like two mags in the H type mag holder. Deffinately not M3 or Skorpion, possible other weapon is a MICRO Galil, but unlikely magazine looks to small..but in quality of photo who can tell.

catch you latter...Jim

BTW the more I look at it it seems the left magazine is the spare and looks to deep(long)for 9mm more 5.56mm length(shows the AK/Galil type reinforce in the top of mag)and covers part of the receiver, could be the Mico Galil, whats on the front is possibly a Wilcox laser aimer hard to tell with the streaking.Sling also looks like it attaches AK/Galil style on gas block. In all confuses the heck outta me bro 8(



[This message has been edited by JY (edited 01-15-2000).]

[Yossi]

Baboon

The idf’s got the three subs because the German government paid for two out of the three (maybe filling guilty…).

However, I’m not sure that the small arm companies in Germany would have been so generous especially with the Arab boycott. More over they’re many people in Israeli that doesn’t buy German maid products by principal.

Let’s suppose the weapon in the photo is mp5, I never heard about the IDF use mp5, did someone heard differently?

[veil]

JY, i stand corrected. Blew the pic up : clearly an Mp5-style cocking handle on the barrel. Altough i still dont know what the %$#@ they did to the front end. Maybe one of those surefire triple-mounts (2 laser 1 flashlight)?

-Veil

BTW i dont think it's a galil. The receiver is shaped wrong around the mag.well.

[This message has been edited by veil (edited 01-16-2000).]

[JY]

Hi Yossie and Veil;

I have not seen any MP5's in use by the IDF either,the front of the receiver in mag well area may be blocked by magazine in dual set up, almost looks like the reinforce on the top of the Orlite mags(right mag in weapon left mag spare). Hard to tell due to the streaking in the photo, even in CQB the IDF rely on 5.56mm weapons and when subguns are used fall back to the UZI models.

Have to say the receiver does appear rounded in the MP5 style though, by the shadow cast on trigger group. As for german material in use those Steiners on his chest (looks like 7X50mm's) are German 8)

catch you all latter, take care...Jim

[MT]

As screwy as it sounds, the front end looks like the collared foregrip of a SP89 (civilian MP5 pistol). If that is the case, then the picture is obviously staged.

The IDF and Police seem to use Mauser and HK sniper rifles enough that I cannot see where they are adverse to using MP5s simply on the basis of them being German.

[Yossi]

Following our past discussion in this thread on the soviet RPD Light Machine Gun, used by the IDF SF units, there is a new interesting page about the PK and RPD in isayeret.com

The links to the photos mentioned above in the thread are dead, since SOC’s Israeli section moved to the isayeret.com, but as far as I remember the two relevant photos are also in the new page.
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/sovietlmg.htm