eBook Novel about SPs and PJs

[habourj]

I wanted to pass along an eBook that is out that I found out about over on Defensorfortis.com. Nighthawks by Damon Johnson, one of our own, has been released as an eBook. I read it and thought it was great. Shows what SF people can do. Any one interested should go to his website at http://www.orsorum.com/digital/nighthawks

After reading the book I emailed the author and let him know that I would pass along the information to others in the field.

Enjoy.

[jhweb]

Read the eBook and loved it. Anyone who likes military suspense should read this!

It was also my first experience using Microsoft Reader and I have to say that it was very close to reading a paper book. I'm going to check out other titles now as well.

[funkyfly]

I would like to know where the author got some of his information about some of the parties involved in his book. It sounds to me like just another cheesy story for people who want to seem more highspeed than they really are. Come on, PJ's and cops on a mission to rescue someone "behind the lines". Try getting some common sense and at least a little reality when writing total fiction. Everyone stick to what you do and don't play at something else, if you want to actually do that kind of stuff join the units that actually do it. Stop living in denial.

[jhweb]

In response to FunkyFly...from one who has read the book, I have to say that the situation that is presented is plausable. I didn't feel that he was trying to equate SPs to PJs, it was a combined team for specific reasons, such as the EST members hostage sniper training and experience. From one who has worked in the black before, be careful of saying "never", just becuase you are not aware of something, doesn't mean it hasn't happened many times...Egos in black ops are left at the main gate.

[NMBR5ML]

Are any of you guys in the Air Force? The SPs have a job, and stay busy doing it. This is a silly discussion.

[Bill]

Stop the BS. The 820th is not the high speed unit some of people think it is. They deploy to SWA and train at home station. I would love to have that sort of duty. Plus most of the young guys want out now that they know that they will spend most of their time in SWA and not doing the "cool" stuff. Airborne SP's give me a break, it will never happen. Cops jumping in with the 75th or 82nd to seize a airfield. I read this book it is BS, and some of folks are right PJ's and STS's do CSAR. Jhweb you must be watching too much primetime "I worked in the black" hell you can't even get the terms down right. Gear guru what pattern? FunkyFly you are on target hang in there.

[jhweb]

So quick to judge and jump..."In the black" is a proper term Bill, not one from prime time, and its reference is for working "Black World" projects, not for black ops which is what you probably assumed. Also, be gentle since not everyone on this board is currently high speed...For me it was 20 years ago...different time, different lingo. As for the book being BS...Its fiction get over it. Its a good read and not totally out of the realm of possibility. Teams are developed and trained according to mission requirements. A hostage rescue sniper doesn't need to know how to survive behind enemy lines for extended periods of time, just to be able to place a bullet in the proper point at the proper time, and do it everytime.

[This message has been edited by jhweb (edited 03-22-2001).]

[Bill]

Jhweb, I apologize for my rudeness. I get a little tired of people spouting ofrf about things they don't know anything about.

gear-guru, what do you do in the AF if you are in the AF or the DOD period. As for me not knowing what's going going on you better check yourself. I have over 20 years in the AF and have worked in various commands and a couple of joint billets. The 820th is a former CSPAF pet project and it will go away some day. As for SP's doing PJ work as you stated you had better check again. What the RAF does is SUPPORT CSAR as part of the mission package not as the defining role in the ground portion of CSAR. SP's will never replace PJ's doing CSAR no matter what someone maybe telling you. I don't need my head out of the sand, I've been doing my job with my eyes wide open. And for your information I've been with the program for a long time, so watch what you say. Some people get real brave on line, but what are they really like in the real world. Something to think about.

[Bill]

Jhweb, I apologize for my rudeness. I get a little tired of people spouting ofrf about things they don't know anything about. Nothing personal, sorry about being rude.

gear-guru, what do you do in the AF if you are in the AF or the DOD period. As for me not knowing what's going going on you better check yourself. I have over 20 years in the AF and have worked in various commands and a couple of joint billets. The 820th is a former CSPAF pet project and it will go away some day. As for SP's doing PJ work as you stated you had better check again. What the RAF does is SUPPORT CSAR as part of the mission package not as the defining role in the ground portion of CSAR. SP's will never replace PJ's doing CSAR no matter what someone maybe telling you. I don't need my head out of the sand, I've been doing my job with my eyes wide open. And for your information I've been with the program for a long time, so watch what you say. Some people get real brave on line, but what are they really like in the real world. Something to think about.

[Bill]

Gear,

I Got your drift, I was just wondering which unit you worked in. But that's O.K., I know when to shut and color. Continue to do things for others and have a great DOD day. (And no this is not a shot), I really know when to check myself. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[weaponX]

There is one highspeed Security Farces unit
at Macdill but that is the only one.. I know
a Msgt who just crosstrained out of Security
Farces because he said the 820th was a joke
they lured him with promises of highspeed
schools but never delivered.. The unit at
Macdill is the only unit recognized with
the "J" indentifier.

[dsumner]

First off let me say, I'm not in the AF, and never have been, but I do have freinds that are.

The USAF needs to figure out what it wants to do. They seem to want nothing but high tech fighters and bombers, but over the last few years they have been operating in some realrat holes (Haiti, Bosnia, Albania). These are high threat areas,and the Army has been providing them with addtional security assests. I've gotnews for them, the forst time the shit hits the fan, and the Army goes looking for extra bodies, the first place they will grab them from is Army units performing ABD for the AF.

Look at some of our allies. The British, the Spanish, he French, the Australians all have units dedicated to ground defense. The AF can't seem to figure out if it wants MPs or combat troops. many of these units also perform PR, special operations, perform FAC, and basically any ground combat job in their AF.

Law enforcement and ground combat are to vastly differnt skills. I would no more expect an infantyman to set up a sobriety check point than I would call on an MP to set upa mortar position.

To stay profeicent in a job, you need to perform it on a regular basis. you ccan't be standing guard at the gate one day, practicing field skills, the next, and then responding to a domestic dispute that night.

You end up being a jack of all trades, and I'm sure you know the rest.

As I've said these are my opinions only.

[MEP]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dsumner:
[B]First off let me say, I'm not in the AF, and never have been, but I do have freinds that are.

The USAF needs to figure out what it wants to do. They seem to want nothing but high tech fighters and bombers, but over the last few years they have been operating in some realrat holes (Haiti, Bosnia, Albania). These are high threat areas,and the Army has been providing them with addtional security assests. I've gotnews for them, the forst time the shit hits the fan, and the Army goes looking for extra bodies, the first place they will grab them from is Army units performing ABD for the AF.

Look at some of our allies. The British, the Spanish, he French, the Australians all have units dedicated to ground defense. The AF can't seem to figure out if it wants MPs or combat troops. many of these units also perform PR, special operations, perform FAC, and basically any ground combat job in their AF.

Law enforcement and ground combat are to vastly differnt skills. I would no more expect an infantyman to set up a sobriety check point than I would call on an MP to set upa mortar position.

To stay profeicent in a job, you need to perform it on a regular basis. you ccan't be standing guard at the gate one day, practicing field skills, the next, and then responding to a domestic dispute that night.

You end up being a jack of all trades, and I'm sure you know the rest.

As I've said these are my opinions only.

Hence the creation of the 820th, they don't do normal gate guarding and other stuff. So when they aren't deployed to SWA they are at "home" training. Maybe they don't do all the "high speed" stuff but they are a relatively new, the Air Force is in a big Transion as well as the rest of the US military. There is no Law stating that USAF SF can't support PJ and STS missions.

[dsumner]

MEP and Gear drop me an email. Gear i need to forward you some info on next years equipment expo.

[MEP]

saspr@specialoperations.com

[SSGTJONES]

Was in Albania with the 720th CRG and sure would of appreciated some of that SUPPORT the army was giving us for ABD. The fact is they had security for one half of the airfield and we covered the other. We routinely ran dismounted recon patrols out to 10 clicks outside the perimeter, along with convoys, helicopter security mission and even found the time to take over operations for a refugee camp ran by the marines. Fact of the matter is the Air Force and the Security Forces is changing. One of the 820th PRIMARY MISIIONS as i understand it after visiting their site is support of the 82nd and 75th in airfield takedown. Now I don't belive this means kicking in the door with them, but having a small group of liasion personel insert with the main force to speed up changeover from Army to Security Forces control so the Army can proceed with other operations. It really shouldn't matter what service your in our what your job is. If the powers that be decide they want SF or Navy cooks doing this then it will be done. Slamming troops for attempting to do their job is ignorant.

[Warrior599]

Your right on target SSgt Jones!!!

[ABNCOP]

To all who read this:

Jump qualified security forces are not a joke but are indeed a reality. To the person that stated that the unit at McDill (D-Cell) is the only AF unit to hold a "J" identifier is incorrect. My unit has 32 "J" coded positions, which I hold one of them, and we just happen to be a Security Forces unit. There are in fact 3 Security Forces units (other than D-Cell) that are "J" coded and have active jumpers. 822 and 823 SFS (part of 820 SFG) and 786 SFS. If anyone happens to have any questions on the missions we do or why we are jump qualified then feel free to drop me a line and I will set the record straight for you. For those of you who disagree with jump qualified Security Forces.....pull your head out and get with the times and learn to adapt. Just because you are a leg is not my fault.

AIRBORNE!

[weaponX]

Actually I thought that CCT's job was to take
down airfields with the 75th. As far as being
an abn cop. Do you jump as part of your mission or was it just part of "the good ole
boys club" training? I heard the 820th was
all hot air as far as real world training
went.. Oh well don't believe everything you hear from NCO's who could'nt wait to get out
of the 820th, not to mention the careerfield.

[baddog]

I've been watching this board for a couple of days now. I see some people in denial, but they are not the ones who are claiming to be part of certain units. It is those who are not ready to face the facts that the AF and the DOD in general is moving toward the "purple suit" theory, where there are more joint ops and less lines drawn between services. Sound crazy, I thought so too at first, but after being part of pentagon study on this I got my eyes opened. As far as cops jumping, it's not falacy, it's fact!. How about CE, Intel, even POL. We are not trying to take anyone's job, just augment the team. There are places we will not be used and then there are places the that don't require pure spec ops personnel. We fill that gap. Granted this is a new concept, but so was Delta at one point. Those of who say you are "in the know" about these type of things should look around the spec ops community and see how many AFSC's actually play nowadays. I recently had the pleasure of talking with a member of the original "Desert One" team, they are still reviewing the "lessons learned" from that mission. One thing he said over and over was "I wish we would have had this AFSC or that AFSC, it would have answered alot of questions on the ground". They realize the need for multiple specialties in todays volitile world. In this downsized overworked military we all work in today, it only makes sense to train up job specific experts instead of overtasking an already overtasked spec operator. You may not need him everytime but it makes sense to have ready reserve.

Just my thoughts, thanks for listening

[weaponX]

I still think the only ones in denial are the
ones sitting back office with jump wings on
their chest... Chairborne Hooah!!!!!!!!!!
The future is headed towards better joint
training but why do I have a sad feeling it
won't be for the cops.

[Mo]

I have been watching this string for awhile and needless to say the comments have been interesting. Let me just say that if you have never worn the uniform and did the job do your research before making comments. For those of you who do serve or have served remember some of the readers don't know all of the in's and out's of the security forces career field. And both sides be kind.

With that said, the discussion about airborne SP's, high speed schools and joint service operations needs to be looked at this way. Joint service ops for SP's is new (last few years) except for thoses assigned to AFSOC or D-Cell(they have been doing it for years). So the true role that AFSF will play is still a bit of a unknown, the frame work has been laid out but it will take time. Groups like the 820th and the like are still working out the details as to how they fit into the big picture. This process will take a few more years, but it is a step in the right direction.

People need to watch what they say to others, no one is better than the rest just because of the schools they go to or which unit they are assigned to. We are all in this together, and we should stand united. We need to take care of the young troops coming in by training them, leading them and being an example for them to follow. That is what is important, remember we are cops first and light fighters second, until the day the make seperate career fields for both we have to live with it.

One last thought, it is not what badges you wear on your uniform or what unit your assigned to that matters. But it's the person inside that will carry the fight to enemy and win.

God Bless and have a Defender Day. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[weaponX]

AMEN

[Bill]

Mo,

Nicely put. You must either have a thick skin or you have been around. I'd agree with you on most of your comments, but the thing about joint operations being fairly new come on I've heard that joint highspeed training has gone on for years with SF people. Also what is your opinion of Gear's spin on the SF doing stuff that you read about in the "chessy" novels. Do you think it's happened to some degree or will it happen. Plus if it's not too personal where have you been stationed, just wanted to see where you get your opinion of things from. They say that the way people think is shaped by the assignments they have had.

[Mo]

Bill,

To answer your questions I don't think that I'm thick skinned. Patience is more like it, as for being around I've been in a long time. As for my opinion about joint service training, I think I'm pretty much on the mark. Except for like I said in my previous post joint training is new to the large majority of AF SF units. But Gear is right joint training as it truly meant to be is not happening, we are doing alot of stuff on our own. And I foresee joint training to go away for the most part due to new training programs and units coming on line. Just my humble opinion. As for where I have been stationed having a bearing on how I look at things it is not really a player. It's the people you are assigned and work with that tends to form and shape your views on things. But just to let you know I have been stationed at Ellsworth, Kunsan, Hurlburt Field, Osan and my current assignment STRATCOM HQ. Not many assignments but I have been TDY a heck of alot. I hope this answers your questions, feel free to ask more. I'm more than willing to answer any questions anyone would have. And if I don't know the answer I'll do my best to find it for you.

[habourj]

I've been checking this thread off and on since I posted the original message and overall have to agree with Mo and a little with baddog. I was part of a highspeed group in the '80s. My base had a numerical designator--not even a name (those who know, know what I mean). Due to our mission task we acquired our training piece-meal going to other service's schools or having instructors come in to where we were. We worked closely with other branches when needed (always) because you get experts to do specific jobs. We were experts in certain tasks, and they were expert in theirs. I do find it amusing that this debate, about whether or not joint service teams and what the AF's role is, has been going on forever, and since the beginning of the debate there have been the teams that have been doing so when and where needed. In my opinion, the Air Force Security Force as a whole will not go purple or all become highspeed. I don't even think that large units will become highspeed because of all the politics and intraservice rivalry involved. It's too much in the open with too many eyes. But I do think units that most people do not know about will continue to work closely with SEALS, Force Recon, Green Berets, etc., and do what they've been doing for years when and where the mission requires. In the end its the "United States Military" that gets tasked, not the Army, Air Force, Navy, or Marines.

Just my humble thoughts...

--keep safe


------------------

[MEP]

I agree with you Habourj in your assement that not all AF SF will go purple or all become highspeed, I think that is because there isn't a need for every single SF member to be. It also wouldn't be practical or affordable to turn all AF SF into a "highspeed" field. That's would be over 30,000 people with alot coming and going.

[ABNCOP]

Originally posted by weaponX:
I still think the only ones in denial are the
ones sitting back office with jump wings on
their chest... Chairborne Hooah!!!!!!!!!!
The future is headed towards better joint
training but why do I have a sad feeling it
won't be for the cops.

Not to be rude-

Those of us with jump wings on our chest are not in a back office and we are damn sure not in denial. 95% of the AFSF personnel that are jump qualified are active jumpers and we take that very seriously. We are proud to represent our career field in the "Airborne Community". Cops jumping is
here and here to stay for the foreseeable future. My suggestion to you-
apply to either the 820th or the 786th, go to jump school, participate in
some of the training exercises, and then see if it is worth talking s@#t
about.....

AIRBORNE!

[Curtis Newkirk]

If you have questions on what SF units could be tasked to do, read up in the USS Mayaguez Rescue attempt.

[weaponX]

Actually I'm very happy with the (ABN) unit
that I'm with now but when I turn 50 I might
apply for your unit. I'm very aware that 95%
of the jumpers in the air force are active
jumpers(CCT,PJ's,SOWT's,and a few TACP's).
By the way I thought the Mayacheese was taken back by JOINT UNITS as in PJ's,seals,
and CCT. It might have had coppers flown in after the dirty work was done to secure the area...???History books elsewhere besides the
Security Farces library state that.

[ABNCOP]

And what ABN unit would that be??

[Warrior599]

WeaponsX..You are obviously misinformed about
USAF SF units and the military in general..I have 21years in the career field so I know..the History of the SS MAYAQUEZ incident..And AF COPS were called up first from THAILAND because they were the closest combat trained unit..Unfourtunately our blue beret brethern were killed when the helicopters that were transporting them crashed enroute to the incident..The marines were called in after the helicopter crash of the SP'S. Our missions in AF SF are many and varied..we are tasked to deploy for traditional airfield security or to SUPPORT
any contingency including SPEC OPS..WE are not SPEC OPS but we are SPEC COPS and if you did your homework You would realize that AF SF is the premier Force protection specailists in the whole US MILITARY..many of our troops are advisors to the Army and Marine Corp for the purpose fo Force protection..Feel free to e-mail me if you need more of a AF SF history lesson..Sincerly SMS RD Smith

[weaponX]

Well ABNCOP,
Its not D-cell or the 820th I'll tell you
that much...

[weaponX]

Warrior,
I see where you are coming from...
HOO-D$%M-RAH!!!!!!

[weaponX]

Warrior,
I see where you are coming from...
HOO-DAMN-RAH!!!!!!!!!