Armor Group Information [Archive] - SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network

esmacd

5 January 2007, 12:20

Like Argyll said mate, depends where they want you to to go, in Iraq its convoys with PWC, Parson's including some static gig's and a few Psd ones up and about Bagga's and Ramadi, also a contract with Tetratec and some I dont even know.
Theres contracts in Africa as well but I dont know much about them sorry.
I can say though, we are looked after with all our admin and career's as good as anyone Ive worked with, guys who have done convoy for to long are normally moved to a quieter gig after 12 months or so and if a contract is lost the guys that are out of work always get priority on the next contract so as far as that goes they are way up there.
Nothings perfect of course but there are a lot worse out here mate, and if its a foot in the door id be grabbing the job and wonder what the hell Ive done later :D
Cheers

079E/R

5 January 2007, 19:01

......and if its a foot in the door id be grabbing the job and wonder what the hell Ive done later :D

Probably not the best advice to give a guy who has limited knowledge about the kind of work around and might have just been told he has a 'job' if he wants it :(

Peacedog, take advantage of SGT. Rock's position to get a run down on the possible gigs you might be working before you make your decision. If you end up working for Armor Group in Iraq you will most likely end up on the convoy teams, it is long hours, working with Hajjii's or Fijjians and cruising up and down routes waiting to get hit. Hats off to the guys that are working it, just make sure that it is what YOU are willing to do.

tboy

5 January 2007, 21:35

I was on one of Armor Groups PSD contract in 05.I was pretty low in the food chain but my belief was that Armor group London, Armor Group Iraq(AGI) and Armor Group America were there own entities. They obviously all came under one but they each bidded on their own contracts and had there own heirachy. I hope I havent lost to many:) maybe someone else could clarify?

nofear

5 January 2007, 23:47

Actually tboy, was thinking similar thoughts.

I'm no expert, nor deserving of being in the same room as those who know experts, but I didn't think that AG North America was operating in Iraq. Well, that what was explained to me by the AG recruiter in London....

Argyll 50

6 January 2007, 09:03

AGI have just released 42 guys from Iraq, due to Parsons overspending, this, I guess is the knock on effect that also seen several EODT teams cut loose as well, as they were all tied in....My mate was one of the 42, this is what he told me this morning.

OZEbullfighter

6 January 2007, 17:53

SGTROCK i would like to be able to pm you but you box is full.

is there an alternate way we can communicate?

leopardprey

6 January 2007, 21:14

Tetra Tech has 3 Armor Group Teams working for them. 1 PSD, and 2 Static remote site security/mobile teams.

Very good organization and very good, hardworking shooters. Some of the best men I have ever served with or managed.

Team are composed of Americans, Brits, Kiwis,and Aussies. Static sites have some Gurkhas as well (real Indian or British Gurkhas, not Nepalli farmers or Nepalli police as some other companies have and try to say they are Gurkhas)

RAT

7 January 2007, 11:44

leopardprey

7 January 2007, 20:54

snaquebite

7 January 2007, 21:06

Edinburgh Risk hires Ghurkas also, generally they have at least 15 years of Ghurka Service.

RAT

8 January 2007, 01:03

Rat,

You are incorrect. On my project, AGI has 20 Gurkhas. 2/3 of them were Indian Army Gurkhas and the other 1/3 were British Gurkhas. AGI also has several British Gurkhas that work at the AGI Villas in Baghdad.

On their Rifle qualifications, most of them outshot the Expats on my project. They are very good workers and very loyal. They have been working on my project for almost 1 year.

I stand corrected. In our meeting, the highers stated other wise.

As many here can tell you I have never seen so many Gurkhas in all my life.

But that is just me.

RAT OUT!!!

leopardprey

8 January 2007, 04:08

Rat, Yeah tell me about it! Many security companies try to pass off any Nepalli as a Gurkha! I have seen some companies that say they have 50 or so Gurkhas, but when you see them you know they are farmers recruited off the street! Can not speak a word of English.

Actually like many of the Gurkhas that served with the Indian Army. Many have past combat experience in Kashmir. Many of me Gurkhas now have relocated to Darjeeling, India. Plan on visiting a few of them when this is all over.

SGTROCK

8 January 2007, 09:29

SGTROCK i would like to be able to pm you but you box is full.

is there an alternate way we can communicate?

rocksotb@yahoo.com

Rock

esmacd

9 January 2007, 13:46

[QUOTE=079E/R]Probably not the best advice to give a guy who has limited knowledge about the kind of work around and might have just been told he has a 'job' if he wants it :(

Fair point mate, I simply assumed he was a proffesional Security contractor applying for work in Hostile regions like here in Iraq, lets hope he has some bottle and took it as intended "a joke".

Mind if that turned someone off work here id not want that person on my team.

The AGI guys from the Parsons contract were let go because the client underestimated 1.5 Mil for monthly security so 2 teams had to be let go including one of our very few all expat convoy teams that move the class 5 ammo.
Hopefully in June this will be sorted by the client and the guys get thier jobs back.

Regards

leopardprey

9 January 2007, 20:27

There has been many cutbacks on the CMC Project. From 22 Teams (if you include the depots) to 8 teams (EODT 2, TTEC 6).

079E/R

9 January 2007, 21:15

The point I was making is that too many people do exactly that, they take any gig to get a "foot in the door" then end up in a situation that they do not feel comfortable with and would never have got themselves into if they new what the deal was, a lot of this can also be blamed on 'employers' not giving an accurate outline of the gig. That is why (IMHO) it is the obligation of people 'in the know' to give a guy an honest account of what they can expect - which I'm sure Rock did.

It might have been a joke, but you said it yourself: if a guy had turned up on your convoy protection detail who had been told he was going to be working PSD (the original question asked about AGI PSD presence in the ME Region), and threw the towel in, would you then accuse him of 'not having any bottle'? It's horses for courses. I've worked on different gigs and in different roles (including convoys) and I really wouldn't like to work convoys again to be honest. I'd rather make my money and increase my chances of being able to spend it by decreasing my exposure on the road. A lot of guys contracting seem the think that the job they are doing somehow measures the size of their balls.....balls to me is kicking down doors at night going into unknown/potentially booby-trapped houses snatching HVT's, or conducting a foot patrol in Ramadi.....

Not breaking YOUR balls, but I would rather see a guy deploy on a job with all of the info. he can get, without turning up and potentially being a liability to himself and his team by getting himself into a situation he does not feel comfortable with.

Argyll 50

10 January 2007, 03:22

There has been many cutbacks on the CMC Project. From 22 Teams (if you include the depots) to 8 teams (EODT 2, TTEC 6).

Is that including the teams you recently formed mate and advertised here at SOCNET mate?.....The lads I know from EODT are not impressed, having been fired by email,whilst on leave 3 days before xmas, all their personal belongings are still at Wolf, and their CRC issue kit is between Wolf, and AGT in Kuwait.....
Unfortunately, this is the nature of contracting, and I'm sure it's happened to a lot of blokes,on different contracts, but it still leaves a bitter taste, especially if the Powers that be, had an incling as to the underestimation of the cost of Security, and the budget was fucked up......someone somwhere dropped the ball, here, or else the COE has decided that it's winding down the CMC project......same thing happened Down South,the buzz was there was enough work there to last 2-3 years, all in the same vicinity of some of the Sites, and it looked good for the long term.....nope, they pulled the plug after 6 months, with areas still full of UXO,located next to the areas that were completed.........the lads at Wolf also said there was work there for at least a year,so that made them happy.....but these cutbacks have made them realise there's no security in security!!

leopardprey

10 January 2007, 04:46

tboy

10 January 2007, 04:59

Is that including the teams you recently formed mate and advertised here at SOCNET mate?.....The lads I know from EODT are not impressed, having been fired by email,whilst on leave 3 days before xmas, all their personal belongings are still at Wolf, and their CRC issue kit is between Wolf, and AGT in Kuwait.....
Unfortunately, this is the nature of contracting, and I'm sure it's happened to a lot of blokes,on different contracts, but it still leaves a bitter taste, especially if the Powers that be, had an incling as to the underestimation of the cost of Security, and the budget was fucked up......someone somwhere dropped the ball, here, or else the COE has decided that it's winding down the CMC project......same thing happened Down South,the buzz was there was enough work there to last 2-3 years, all in the same vicinity of some of the Sites, and it looked good for the long term.....nope, they pulled the plug after 6 months, with areas still full of UXO,located next to the areas that were completed.........the lads at Wolf also said there was work there for at least a year,so that made them happy.....but these cutbacks have made them realise there's no security in security!!

Unfortunatley that is the nature of contracting. There has been a paragragh in every contract I have signed called "force Majure clause" which covers any misfortunes for the company and can get them out of giving 30 days notice.

It has been said many times before, as an independant contractor we are expendable. The best way to deal with things is to believe none of what you hear and only half o what you see. Oh and have a back up plan.. Keep updating and sending those CV's out.

079E/R

10 January 2007, 06:00

It never ceases to amaze me how many people seem to think that the dream is never going to end. It kinda makes you wonder what a lot of these guys had planned with their lives before the GWOT kicked off.......

leopardprey

10 January 2007, 06:11

EODT did not like to have to lay off personnel right before xmas, as the same was done with PArsons and Tetra Tech. But, EODt and others had no choice. Money ran out, US Army did not release funds, and EODT was directed by the COE to demobilize personnel ASAP. That is the contract world. Again, if no money for funding, there is no money.

Argyll 50

10 January 2007, 06:14

I never advertised for teams on SOCNET, back in August, I advertised for a position as a Security Manager.

The only new team security wise that was formed on the Tetra Tech side was for a very small specialized PSD team for a specific project that is being done in support of one of Tetra Tech's 6 UXO teams.

COE did not decide to wind down the CMC Project, the US Army reduced the funding and thus the number of teams. US Army does not release the funds, we can not work for free.

Pay, funding, number of personnel on the CMC project and other projects is starting to see a decrease overall in Iraq. As I tell all in the contract world, treat every paycheck as your last and have a backup plan, get an education, and diversify your resume.

Roger that mate, It wasn't Tetra Tech , it was the SOC-SMG jobs that were advertised.....my apologies.....but Having been in the same position as these guys(contracts downsizing) I know from experience that treating every paycheck as the last, they wont be the first or the last contract to suffer a similar fate in the coming year.....that being said,when I was at Cochise before the handover to EODT, the number of teams on the Project was going to be cut, as it currently stands (2 teams), I was pretty surprised they ramped it back up to 5-6 teams,and also had to rebuild a Camp from Scratch, in terms of Security and Logistics in Western Iraq,and it took a bit of time before the UXO Op actaully began in earnest........In my comments about the COE winding down the project, I was of the understanding, that the COE was part of the US Army,and that the two were linked, and if the COE wound it down, it was because Uncle Sam cut back on finance, I knew it wasn't all the COE's doing, it's all the way up to Congress and the Powers that be decide who gets what in terms of Funding......
I don't understand the guys who go off and buy themselves huge houses, that they normally wouldn't be able to afford,make a nest egg with your earnings, and spend wisely,as one day,it'll all be over, and there will be 200,000 "Security Specialists", who all think they know all there is to know, looking for work , and it's just not going to be there, most mobs now can afford to pick and chose, the number of people who have rotated through Iraq and Afghanistan must be massive,diversification is a must if you want this to be a career!!

leopardprey

10 January 2007, 06:16

"It never ceases to amaze me how many people seem to think that the dream is never going to end. It kinda makes you wonder what a lot of these guys had planned with their lives before the GWOT kicked off......."

Amazes me also, then see many security contractors go take out Mortgages for $300K - $500k homes, buy boats, etc.. caus ethey think they will be working for years and years at their current salary. Work in Iraq, save all the money you make (put in CDs or Blue Stocks) and when you deiced to finish or the contracts run out, then go spend your money with what you have.

leopardprey

10 January 2007, 06:19

US Army is actually the client, and the COE is contracted out by the US Army. Then the COE contracted out TTEC, EODT, and Parsons. TTEC subcontracted out AGI and SOC-SMG for security.

leopardprey

10 January 2007, 06:22

Argyll, you are correct, in that SOC-SMG did advertise here on SOCNET for hiring 20 security personnel to start up a new Tetra Tech site out west. Tetra Tech actually reduced 2 UXO teams, but due to turnovers and way security on existing sites was laid out, 20 additional SOC personnel were needed. Tetra Tech has 6 sites on the CMC Project, 3 use SOC-SMG security and 3 use Armor Group security.

Argyll 50

10 January 2007, 06:34

Thanks for the clarification mate, the strange thing is that I know someone who was offered a job by EODT just before Xmas, who had never been to Iraq before, and was told that there was guys going through the CRC Pipeline....guess who's going to be dissapointed?

Most Security companies in Iraq, other than the Big 3 US Ones have all shard the same fate in terms or having to reduce teams, because of funding or changes in the client contract, it happened to my team in Kroll, we went on leave, the orbat changed, the contract changed, and we all found ourselves wondering what the score was,it all came down to being in the right place at the right time......we had guys just in the company for 6 months, and guys like me, who had 18 months, and a Command position, and it was easier to keep the orbat the way it was, just stroke out the guys not in country!
I spoke to my AGI Buddy this morning in South Africa, it was only the Class V guys who were released....but it was an all expat crew, and some I believe were also ex Cochise guys.....lucky white heather or what?
There will be a lot of this in Iraq this year, as projects come to fruition, and a few Security firms will just close their doors, the owners and Directors having made their money, bought the Houses,Yachts, cars, and Foreign property, will close the books, and Joe Bloggs, just out the Military will be left without a job, and without an explanation, as at the end of the day, you're a number on a payroll, a number without a face, and as tboy pointed out 100% expendable!!

leopardprey

10 January 2007, 06:34

My advice, if you are an American and you want a good career in the International PSD world with great pay and benifits - try the DOS DSS. Get a Bachelors Degree, get some international experiences, military and learn to speak a foreign language ( that is in high demand - Chinese, Arabic, Farsi, ) fluently. My brother, with no military background but working in China for 5 years and speaks fluent Mandarin, just got into the DSS and will be working some very high level PSD gigs overseas, then will go on to work as the RSO at various embassies. First he is going through 1 year of training and getting to go through many of the top notch training courses. FBI, DEA, and USSS also have many international opportunities. Not contract jobs, but secure careers.

Argyll 50

10 January 2007, 06:46

Leopardprey......PM Inbound mate, and you're brother is one switched on cookie!!

Tracy

10 January 2007, 06:54

...As I tell all in the contract world, treat every paycheck as your last and have a backup plan, get an education, and diversify your resume.

Same here. I rant and rave till I'm blue in the face telling Soldiers who leave the Army to earn their Bachelor's degrees. They have this extremely silly idea that because they have a critical MOS they can parlay that into a civilian career. I have some analyst types who are in for a very rude surprise.

079E/R

10 January 2007, 07:07

and Joe Bloggs, just out the Military will be left without a job, and without an explanation, as at the end of the day, you're a number on a payroll, a number without a face, and as tboy pointed out 100% expendable!!

(This mainly pertains to the non-US guys reading this)

Aside from older guys fresh out of the military with extensive qualifications and operational experience (and good contacts), I think a lot of guys would be better off, and less dissapointed if they didn't get out. I know a lot of guys with impressive military qualifications and operational experience that have been unable to get work because they left their run too late i.e within the last 6 months. Work's drying up, we all know guys who have been working contracts that were either shut down early or downsized because the money ran out. And then you have the guys on the sidelines as Argyll pointed out, many of which are on company databases who have been tried and tested, to be notified if positions open up. The reality is that American guys with good backgrounds have a lot better opportunities than TCN's with good backgrounds (specifically due to the clearance issue), it sucks but that's the way it is.....

SOTB

10 January 2007, 08:15

There will be a lot of this in Iraq this year, as projects come to fruition, and a few Security firms will just close their doors, the owners and Directors having made their money, bought the Houses,Yachts, cars, and Foreign property, will close the books, and Joe Bloggs, just out the Military will be left without a job, and without an explanation, as at the end of the day, you're a number on a payroll, a number without a face, and as tboy pointed out 100% expendable!!Argyll, sometimes I don't know whether you are complaining or simply stating fact. If the above is simple fact, then cool. If its whining, then the answer is that the "Joe Bloggs" should have built his own company. No owners or Directors should feel the least bit ashamed for having made money. That is why companies are formed. For those that want a socialist-lean to your business, try working for Chavez.

No one owes ANYONE -- ANYTHING beyond what is stipulated in your offer letter or contract. To think otherwise is -- simply -- communist....

079E/R

10 January 2007, 08:26

....For those that want a socialist-lean to your business, try working for Chavez........No one owes ANYONE -- ANYTHING beyond what is stipulated in your offer letter or contract. To think otherwise is -- simply -- communist....

Hey I want to clarify that just because I agreed with one of Argyll's points in my last post, I ain't no Pinko!! :D

Argyll 50

10 January 2007, 08:38

Just stating facts mate, but however, there is this little thing in any business called "Duty of care", and that is supposed to start at the top, in any business accountability starts at the top of the food chain, not the bottom mate....and every company, whether it belongs in the Security Industry or the Communications Industry , or the wholesale Industry does owe it's employees that duty of care, that's if you're a company employee, and not an IC, or subcontractor.......for example a company should not be announcing redundancies in a particular section, whilst it's actively recruitting to fulfil these positions, and I'm talking broadly here, and not directing this at the security Industry.....

However that being said mate, we all know, those of us who have been around whilst the Goose was laying it's Golden eggs, that at some stage it had to end, or in the very least it wound down to a very low level.It's always about numbers, I don't think I've ever had my terms and conditions sent to me for perousal before I signed them,or had each of the clauses fully explained to me, though I doubt it would have made any difference, I'd still have taken the jobs I've been on........I love my job, and I love what I'm doing, it's what I do best,the money is a bonus, but being part of something that nobody outside of our circles understands, is why I do what I do, and where, and with whom....I've met some outstanding people in the last 3 years, friends I've made for life.

This should be compulsary reading for Contractors.....

http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=48741

There's a few good paragraphs that he uses, and that tboy and I touched upon.

RAT

10 January 2007, 09:53

RAT

10 January 2007, 10:28

Just stating facts mate, but however, there is this little thing in any business called "Duty of care", and that is supposed to start at the top, in any business accountability starts at the top of the food chain, not the bottom mate....and every company, whether it belongs in the Security Industry or the Communications Industry , or the wholesale Industry does owe it's employees that duty of care, that's if you're a company employee, and not an IC, or subcontractor.......for example a company should not be announcing redundancies in a particular section, whilst it's actively recruitting to fulfil these positions, and I'm talking broadly here, and not directing this at the security Industry.....

Argyll,

As you stated (I am reemphasizing many many many people getting into the Contracting biz do NOT under the term Contracting.

If I am a contractor to the "Company" there is no "Duty of Care" I am NOT an employee. I do not work for the company nor am I a direct representive of the "Company" which make them more of an "At will" type of pay. Meaning that at anytime either party can terminate the contract at any point.

If anyone took (I am at fault here as well a few times) a contract gig and let the Company write the contract or did not fully understand the contract then it is not Boo Hoo on the "Company" part. But, Boo Hoo on the IC.

It is a different ball game on the Corp world as we have all said.

What I can see now is the larger companies stocking up on the C/V's and seeing which IC's are going to last in the industry and which ones are going to fall to the wayside.

Any good company will do this. There are just allocating their resources. IMHO no harm in that. I have CV's from a number of people all looking for work. The only difference is that I am not a company looking for contracts. I am a buddy looking for work for other buddies.

Stay safe,

RAT OUT!!!

RAT

10 January 2007, 10:34

Double Tap..

leopardprey

10 January 2007, 11:22

Argyll 50

10 January 2007, 11:32

I fully agree mate....."At will" covers a huge spectrum, and is used a lot, I'll be honest, even at 3 years in the job, I still look at it as a Novice, with a lot to learn, especially when it comes to legal issues and wording on contracts, now I had this conversation with an AGI TL a few months back over the issues of the Fijians, and how their contracts were written, I think they came from another Security provider, and they were offered a verbal contract to entice them to jump ship, however when they arrived at AGI, their TOC's were different altogether, and when they lost a lot of their bretheren in various incidents, they threatened to walk,and were not being obliged by their employer, under their contracts, and they were told in no uncertain terms, that their contracts in Iraq were not worth the paper they were written on, and this was the SM who told them this.....
The "At will" part, seems to me, the justification to release from a contract without explanation or a 30 day notice, having been served a 30 days notice by your employer, in my interpretation, means that you are no longer obliged to fulfil your obligatory 30 days notice either, and are free to leave,with effect immediately,providing you have no issued equipment, that needs to be signed for at another location.......I believe this was quite common in Iraq during the early years, when jumping ship to the highest payer was very common.
What I see here is that recruiters for PSC's and PMC's are leading some guys on with falsehoods,and incorrect information, just to get numbers up, and arses on seats, and when they achieve this, then the weeding out process begins, releasing guys "at will", and replacing them with more bums on seats,but without these initial guys on the ground, they themselves would have been unable to fulfil their end of their contracts, all to many companys are doing this, just like I said, contracting and being a contractor is all about the numbers game, some you win, some you lose!!

Contracts and TOC's, are they really legally binding, or are they simply not worth the paper they were written on in a High Risk Environment ?, as I'm sure the Blackwater Fallujah Lawsuit will in no doubt highlight the failings and shortcomings of contractors "contracts", and the failure to fulfil the contracts as an employer.

Argyll 50

10 January 2007, 11:57

I had one EDOT security guy who was laid off come looking for me to see about a job, I told him we were demobing personnel as well. I mentioned that I had to just recently replace 6 expats with 6 Gurkhas to stay within budget. He told me that was discrimatory. I replied "If you are willing to work for less than $2000 a month, I will hire you right now.?!"

EODT laid off about 60 security personnel and 35 UXO personnel. I know that is rough times. Wish they all could be hired.

If anyone out there does speak Cambodian (Khmer) or Laotian, has work experience in those areas, and has managment, medical, or UXO background shoot me a PM. Maybe something coming down the pipeline soon.

This is what gets me, they're now doing the same job that expats were being paid almost ten times more , and yet they're getting a lot less, how can this be fair to these guys?.....unfortunately, this is the way the Industry is going in Iraq, and as great as these guys might well be, they were not good enough to be in the position before budgets, why are they good enough now?.....I'm a firm believer in paying guys accordingly, if they're involved in the same risks, then they should be getting the Big Bucks as well, budget or no budget, I'm not having a go here mate, as I see this across the country, Chileans with Blackwater getting paid a pittance on the Route Irish runs, when expats are on a month, what they earn a year, for the same risks!

A lot of PSC's are now running with 25% expats, 75% LN's,just to land contracts,and keep operating in Iraq, the expats are on a mint, the LN's are getting fucked over, and someone in corporate is laughing his tits off as his bank balance increases....the problem here is we Westerners demand higher wages,better weapons, better armour, better vehicles, because we have better training,and a higher standard of experience and we're worth it? etc, I wonder how many of us, would be doing Security in HRE's if we were paid the same as our LN's, who do the same job, and are infact more at risk, as they have to go home on leave, where the very suspicion of working with the Infidels is enough to get you slotted, and your family murdered?......all to many times, I've heard the expression, "you pay peanuts, you get monkeys"......

Some very good comments being posted, it's kind of taken it off topic though.

norts

10 January 2007, 12:00

Contracts and TOC's, are they really legally binding, or are they simply not worth the paper they were written on in a High Risk Environment ?, as I'm sure the Blackwater Fallujah Lawsuit will in no doubt highlight the failings and shortcomings of contractors "contracts", and the failure to fulfil the contracts as an employer.

A US citizen working for a US company on a US DoD/DoS contract has a lot more legal options than say, a South African working for a British company (that is actually based in tax haven country) that has a contract from a US corporation.

The price US citzens pay for potential legal options when working on a governement contract is that they have to pay tax.

Argyll 50

10 January 2007, 12:05

Yes, another good point mate, or even a UK/SA/Aus citizen working alongside US citizens on the same contract.....

079E/R

10 January 2007, 18:11

This is what gets me, they're now doing the same job that expats were being paid almost ten times more , and yet they're getting a lot less, how can this be fair to these guys?.........

I'm a firm believer in paying guys accordingly, if they're involved in the same risks, then they should be getting the Big Bucks as well, budget or no budget.........

A lot of PSC's are now running with 25% expats, 75% LN's,just to land contracts,and keep operating in Iraq, the expats are on a mint, the LN's are getting fucked over, and someone in corporate is laughing his tits off as his bank balance increases...I've heard the expression, "you pay peanuts, you get monkeys"....

Argyll, I know you are only making a point, but if it is so concerning to you then take a pay cut! :eek: Leopardprey has a position (refer to top of page), $2000 a month is about $500 a month more than what a LN earns on average. "You pay peanuts, you get monkeys"? In the past I've seen plenty of monkeys running around on $650 a day as I'm sure a lot of people here have.

The bottom line is that as long as LN's and non-gringo TCN's (i.e Fijiian's, Chilean's, Hondurans, Peruvians, Nepalese etc..) are willing to work for what they are getting paid, nothing is going to change. Have you ever taken into account that $75US a day take home for a Fijiian working on a PSD is comparable to let's say an Australian or a Brit(or Scotsman) taking home $600US/350 Sterling a day based on their economy. The guys that I was involved in training and eventually rolling with last year were ECSTATIC with being selected and getting the payrise up from $40 a day working fixed site. It was big bucks for them and a significant increase in pay, and they were happy despite the risk increase.

Look at the South American guys working on BESF, some of those cats are only on $27US a day plus per-diem, but that goes a hell of a long way in downtown Lima.... You keep referring to LN"s, well $1500-2K is big bucks for Hajj working for let's say Falcon, despite the risks. And with a shortage of legit. work Hajj is gonna keep working for that and be happy....have you ever wondered why it is so easy to get LN's if required?

So looking at the big picture it's roughly comparable based on the economy's of the IC's home country. You might not agree, but there's no union in the 'industry' for the LN's and TCN's that don't get paid the same as ex-pats doing the same job. I'm not taking a shot at you but look at the bigger picture, it's the way it has always been and the way it will always be..........I sure as hell would not work for $2K US a month. And you've essentially contradicted yourself, because even if they were paid the same as Ex-Pats, the budgets for security contracts simply would not allow for LN's/TCN's to be paid the same. These are companies that run off profit margins, off course the guys at the top are going to make a buck.........

leopardprey

10 January 2007, 21:02

Unfortunately, there are a lot of security jobs, static wise, that a TCN can do just as well as an Expat, at a fraction of the cost. There is a budget that a company has to stay within. No money, no pay. I would rather replace several expats with TCNS, than have to reduce the number of security personnel on a site. The Gurkhas that AGI are using have proven to be very reliable and hard working. It makes business sense, if the position is to have a man stand at a gate or in a tower for security, while a expat will cost $25,000 a month, a English Speaking TCN (who does not complain or bitch and is respectful and appreciative) who can do the same job only cost $4000 per month. I have had the fortune to have had trained, work along side, and managed Thais, Cambodians, and Gurkhas that are very top notch and loyal as hell.

leopardprey

10 January 2007, 21:12

Average Salary per year in Nepal = $400 US

When I was in Cambodia, my Border Patrol Police working for me where paid $150 per month. Usually they are paid about $75 a month, but I gave them bonuses for my project. The college educated Cambodians working admin/management jobs for me where paid $200-$500 per month.

Filipino NCOs get around $250 per month if they are lucky.

Kind of puts TCN pay in perspective.

We are very fortunate and blessed by God to be able to have the opportunities we have had and to come from developed countries.

leopardprey

10 January 2007, 23:42

"and as great as these guys might well be, they were not good enough to be in the position before budgets, why are they good enough now?....."

I don't think it is so much to do with quality of personnel as it is about budgetting, getting contracts, and how much a company can afford. Used to be you could get a contract for lets say 20 expats which would cost $500,000 a month. Where if you have the contract for 10 expats and 10 TCNs, would cost $290,000 for example. That is a 2.5 million dollar difference in a one year contract. Cpmpanies and US Goverment in general was paying too much for security couple of years ago and many went over budget. Even expat wise I think you will see the salaries start coming down. Quality may suffer.

esmacd

11 January 2007, 00:29

This is an excellent thread, and relevent even to the original question as all these issues concern all the security firms here, espiecly those that hire Ln's.
AGI has numerous Ln's we use Iraqis on my contract and the quality of those personel is pretty good, we vette and do induction and then obvously due to time frames on the job training, a nessecity of life here, the 20 odd I have in my team are on the whole good experienced guys and have saved our ass more than once. on our contract depending on time on the ground they can earn close to 1K a month and most are happy with this as in line with thier standard of living they are fairly well off.
As to expats, when I applied for this gig I was told straight what I could expect and was under no missapprehension as to what I was getting into coming to thier convoy contract, and when i was in London for my interview this was reenforced and so were my terms of employment.
A few of the very good points are we are indeed contractors but we are also employed as employee's, meaning we are paid on leave and have full insurance cover when we are on leave, when the term of the contract ie 12 months has expired we continue on, on a month to month basis on the original terms of employment.
We have lost 3 of our expats in the last 5 months and in each case the remainder of the expats bar one have sacked the job. Normaly this would mean "Sorry mate you have broken your contract and go home" everyone but one of these guys was retianed despite "sacking it" and I know of at least 2 on LP's static contract and the others after a break sent on to other contracts.
My ex TL after 18 months continuesly on convoy's refused a mission to Mosul and was agian instead off fired and sent home was sent home but told to have a 3 month break and we can expect him in a month, he needed a break and AGI realised it and we are lucky to keep him.
When I first arrived here, agian in line with the Parsons guys losing thier jobs so fast, the same nearly happened to us and the 50 odd guys going through our school were to be returned to thier home bases to wait out and we, being older employee's about to lose our gigs were to take thier positions, these men were to go to the top of the pile and be feed back in on all othe other vacancies or new contracts that came availible, so Im fairly certain the guys going out now will if they can hold on will start to be bought back in by AGI when slots come up.
So I believe we have solid contracts we AGI and they have in most cases shown a duty of care to its contracted employee's as we should back to the company.
As for the original poster even though I dont know much about AGI (US) I'd think he could do far worse than coming to ArmourGrp.
Regards

leopardprey

11 January 2007, 02:23

AGI has been nothing but professional in all my dealings with them. Most all AGI personnel I know have been very happy working for them and the way they treat their personnel. Pay is a little lower than American companies, but they have a great vacation policy. 9 weeks on, 3 weeks off PAID, rotations.

079E/R

11 January 2007, 02:46

....we use Iraqis on my contract and the quality of those personel is pretty good, we vette and do induction and then obvously due to time frames on the job training, a nessecity of life here.......

I was just wondering how you 'vette' your LN personnel when the Interior Ministry has difficult vetting recruits for the police and Army? The reality is that it is almost impossible to vette local nationals as a lot of records were destroyed, as well as the innacuracies of birthdates (how many Hajji's do you know that were born on the 01/01/80?) as well as likeness of names.....For example, I was working on a DoD contract a couple of years ago and we had to get a LN terp badged because he was rolling with us everywhere......well he got the badge without any dramas but 2 months later his badge was pulled after documents were sent electronically from Washington which identified him as an former high ranking Special Repuplican Guard officer and Baath party member. We lost a good interpreter and yeah call me paranoid, but this guy may have just been biding his time before selling us out or who knows?

Argyll 50

11 January 2007, 03:52

079E/R.....CRG are already on the way downwards in terms of wages, on £172 a day, that's the same as some CRG people make in Mainland UK, and it's not going to be too long before the standard wage in Iraq with UK Firms follow suit to land contracts, and maintain profit margins, and that at the end of the day is why any Security Company is in Iraq.
I'm well aware the pay refelects the standard of living in their HOR, so with that in mind, would you be thrilled paying a Norwegian CP Operator a wage that reflects his standard of living?......But I know the point you're making, and it's very valid..........as for me, I'm gainfully employed, I took a pay cut from my last company, and have done so twice....but just like you, and everyone else, there's a limit to what I'll work for in a HRE, before it gets stupid, and not worth the risk,fine if you're single and have no family commitments..........but there are pay disputes ongoing in Iraq with TCN's as we speak, but this is a very good and informative thread,where level heads and deep thinking are the name of the day....and I know that paying LN's and TCN a lower wage is the way it is, and always will be, sometimes it's difficult having to explain that to them!!

tboy

11 January 2007, 05:54

I was just wondering how you 'vette' your LN personnel when the Interior Ministry has difficult vetting recruits for the police and Army? The reality is that it is almost impossible to vette local nationals as a lot of records were destroyed, as well as the innacuracies of birthdates (how many Hajji's do you know that were born on the 01/01/80?) as well as likeness of names.....For example, I was working on a DoD contract a couple of years ago and we had to get a LN terp badged because he was rolling with us everywhere......well he got the badge without any dramas but 2 months later his badge was pulled after documents were sent electronically from Washington which identified him as an former high ranking Special Repuplican Guard officer and Baath party member. We lost a good interpreter and yeah call me paranoid, but this guy may have just been biding his time before selling us out or who knows?

I to would be interested to here how AGI now "vette" Iraqi's. AGI have had numerous problems before with them every since picking up the PWC convoys. Call me cynical but I will never ever trust an Iraqi. Even a so called "vetted"one.

079E/R.....CRG are already on the way downwards in terms of wages, on £172 a day
I still cant believe people are prepared to risk there lives for this amount of money.

leopardprey

11 January 2007, 05:57

172 pounds is comes to around $10,000 +/- US a month, which is not bad pay. If you are paid during your vacation rotations, that is pretty good pay! That is about what most AGI expats are being paid.

doitforjonny

11 January 2007, 06:23

(as im knocking dust off the old thread)

took me a bit to find it but this is nice

http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=48305&page=2

specifically post #25

Argyll 50

11 January 2007, 06:42

172 pounds is comes to around $10,000 +/- US a month, which is not bad pay. If you are paid during your vacation rotations, that is pretty good pay! That is about what most AGI expats are being paid.

I'm not sure if that includes paid at home, I honestly don't think it is, CRG have lost a lot of personnel,through these pay cuts, in 2004 they were on £300, it's a sign of the times, but like I said, I know a female CPO who is getting paid £225 a day in London, which after tax I guess it pans out as near to £172....and yet there's no immediate risk in CPO work in mainland UK.
I was making £2000 per month take home before I came to Iraq, but I was working 5 days a week,and 3 weekends out of 4 to bring that bacon in,where I live in Scotland, the wages are lower than the National average......having a trade is where the big bucks are,sparkies being one of the highest paid.

The ironic thing is that a lot of guys in Iraq see their daily rate and think "wow, that's more than I can earn at home, but if they're out on the road 12-14 hours a day, and then convert that to a daily rate, suddenly it doesn't look so fantastic, more like normal hourly rates like back home as a tradesman!! :eek:

Doitforjonny..........great find mate, I used one of your posts to highlight some stuff.....Like I said,I've only been doing this line of work for 3 years mate, and I have a lot to learn, Security isn't just about Iraq and Afghanistan armed to the teeth with the latest Gucci Tactical vest, and that's why I'm here increasing my knowledge, and learning little tidbits from the likes of SOTB, Sgt Rock, and Silverbullet

Tboy......how do any companys vett their LN's and just how thourough do they check the backgrounds, we have mixed Sunni/Shia on our teams, and we believe ourselves that they've set each other up in the past, no love lost.
In one of my old companys,one of my LN's was an ex Republican Guard from the Hammurabi Division, and he had some stories to tell!!

SOTB

11 January 2007, 06:42

172 pounds is comes to around $10,000 +/- US a month, which is not bad pay. If you are paid during your vacation rotations, that is pretty good pay! LP, too many of these hotshots think that the inflated wages of 2003-2004 are the norm. And at the same time these same "professionals" forget that many were previously earning as little as $30K per year.

I'm all about high salaries. Why? Because the higher the salary I can offer, then higher the rate I can bill. What these 2-3 year wonders fail to realize is that at the end of the day, if the client cannot afford to pay -- then there is no job.

Personally, I know that we will always be paying guys upwards of $500 per day. But I also know -- and am thankful -- that the guys that will earn that will be truly pros in their field, and we will knock off this funding of these super-egos with their one-dimensional thinking....

Argyll 50

11 January 2007, 07:01

I agree to a point there SOTB, but whose fault is it that salaries were inflated in Iraq in the beggining, sure us hotshot 2-3 year wonders thought it was wonderful, but a lot of the guys have made their nest eggs and split from the risks, some of us are still here because it's a fucking good job, and if you're in with the right mob, it's like being back in that close knit brotherhood, something being a chippy or a sparkie cannot give you!!

When a company pays well, they also tend to retain their best people, and that is a good thing, CRG have found out the hard way,what they have now is a high turnover, and that means the quality of guys on the ground suffer.

The guys might be getting paid $500 a day, but the client is getting billed $$$$$ more,me I do this because I'm good at it, I feel comfortable at it, and I want to learn as much as I can about the industry,I hear you on the money is on the management side of things,I would never dream of becoming a security manager until I knew everything there was at ground level first, and that to me means diversifying, everyone wants to be a PSD, but that's a small part in the bigger picture, I've done PSD, I've done the CMC static/Mobile teams thing, and now I'm learning what I can about convoys, I turned down a PSD gig with a reputable UK firm just before xmas, as I've just started in a CET, and I want to broaden my horizons......
I know some Security Managers who done a year in Iraq as PSD, and not even TL's at that, how can they possibly have the knowledge of how difficult it is doing that job, if you've never been in the positions you're trying to win over?

079E/R

11 January 2007, 07:48

Argyll, trust me mate, I've seen the infamous letter that was getting around from the Shift Leader to the CRG headshed back in London and I couldn't agree more, 172 quid a day is a JOKE and an insult to the guys on the ground (besides, if you look back at a PM I sent you last year you should know my views on London headsheds ;)). However, nobody is putting a gun to their head forcing them to sign a Statement of Services. The sad thing is that the base of experienced guys will walk, and other less experienced guys will gladly fill those positions. The potential for disaster is there. When I started it was in a group of cherry guys and if it wasn't for a few older guys with experience (and not limited to Iraq) we definately could have made some costly mistakes.

I was never earning earning 9 a day but I think all of us have had to take a pay cut over the last 18 months. My view is that it is a result of companies constantly trying to underbid the competition, with one company in particular having the money behind it to be able to bid for contracts with less profit margin than their competitors. What I have seen though is the pay of LN's and non-gringo TCN's (sorry I keep using that term but I am a TCN) remain in the same ball park. It may vary from company to company and be dependant on roles (i.e shooter vs Interpreter) but it definately seems to be enough to keep them coming to work, despite the risks as you pointed out earlier.

I've worked with Kurds, Arabs, Fijiians and South Americans and not once have I ever been caught up in a pay dispute with any of them.....in fact the only time I ever saw that happen was when some Fijjian fixed site personnel were bragging to Sri Lankan personnel about how much more they got paid.....the Sri Lankans simply wanted to be paid the same as the Fijjians, not the same as the ex-pat supervisors. In my opinion the Fijjians were getting paid too much to begin with based on their ability to do the job - but that's another story.....:o

SGTROCK

11 January 2007, 07:49

Man did this thread take a turn!

Rock

BTW what the hell is a "chippy" or a "sparkie"? Sorry bro but I speak American!!:D

Argyll 50

11 January 2007, 07:59

Damn......I called it a Chippy so you would understand it....a Joiner/Carpenter

Sparkie......Electrician

Dude, are your courses open to anyone?........I heard they have a really short tattooed guy as lead carbine Instructor....:D, and I'd love to learn from the best!!

079E/R

11 January 2007, 08:23

LP, too many of these hotshots think that the inflated wages of 2003-2004 are the norm......

I guess a lot of guys (myself included) out there whose first experience contracting has been in Iraq have been spoilt in a way by being paid those kind of daily rates compared to, let's say a guy who has been doing this for 10 years or more. One of my old PM's told me what they were getting paid in Kosovo - I realised that I was pretty lucky. Although I totally agree with the point you made, whenever dudes bitch about the daily rate I think about the pay I was getting in uniform. But on the same token there are a lot of 2-3 year guys like myself that have considered ourselves very fortunate to have been able to have had the opportunity to have earned this kind of money, the reality it that a lot of us will never come close to it again. Not all of us are whining claiming that we should be on a thousand bucks a day....

if the client cannot afford to pay -- then there is no job................Personally, I know that we will always be paying guys upwards of $500 per day....

$500 a day plus per-diem is nothing to be scoffed at IMHO. I guess in talking about the CRG guys, the hardest part would be to go from once being paid 300 Sterling a day down to 172 (which according to XE today is $335.51US - well below 500) whilst doing the same job with the same client. But as I stated earlier nobody is holding a gun to their head to sign the SOS.

P.S That was an awesome post by the way SOTB (#25 in the link doitforjonny pasted)!!

doitforjonny

11 January 2007, 10:03

Argyll

I was just lurking this one out til you threw out that link; it reminded me of the one i pasted with SOTBs post, and thought that there were prolly some other lurkers who would benefit from the entirety of that previous thread.

i think it also is good to look back and compare past commentary with what we see today. maybe some one somewhere with a head a lot more eggshaped than mine could figure out a way to use them, or just as easily the guys who werent on the board can use them for self edification.

there were a couple three more that i recall (threads that is) that were a good 3 plus pages in length that any of you lurkers interested reading this, (and werent here for) ought to go dig around for. as a whole they provide great insight into the industry and how it has developed, and how the observations then are just as valid now.

the game dont change. just the rules. :)

zdfg

11 January 2007, 10:33

I made about 125.00 a day my first gig in Iraq, and at the time I was thinking "MAN, I am making as much as a Cpt., so I must be doing alright!" :p

Argyll 50

11 January 2007, 11:06

Was that back in 1941?.......:D.......

I think we all know that what we're making, and what we have made has been nothing short of spectacular in any given job, but there are guys out there, not in Security earning a lot more, both in CONUS and overseas, I've no idea where these "pop star wages" originated,but looking at the contract that was sent to the guys who were cross decking to EODT, the hourly rate was based on the same rate as in CONUS, it was the "danger money" that inflated it considerably to the big bucks.......somebody somewhere must have decided the baseline for Operating CP teams in Iraq, because there is little difference between some of the UK mobs, and the US mobs, in comparing salaries.....The same for CET's, a base level of pay is not dissimilar across the board....again, some contracts like AGI keep you on a retainer when home on leave, but that meant your daily rate was lower in country, once you balance it all out, those who get a higher rate of Pay in country, but no retainer on leave, compared to the paid 12 months , is about the same, if anything, the guys getting paid on leave should be getting a little more?, I don't know for sure.......I don't get paid on leave, but I get paid well in-country....

You also have to take into consideration that the dollar was pretty weak against the Sterling back in 2004/5, last year it made some gains, but not so good if you get paid in dollars.....so when guys were getting £325 a day for a 2i/c slot on a PSD team, that was almost $650,and that was for someone without a Spec Ops background, ex SF guys were making £425 a day, almost $1000.......I know ex Project Managers, ex SF, who have had to drop down to TL's if they wanted to saty in the job, and to maintain their "edge" in Iraq.

A lot of it boils down to the fact, that many of us, and our spouses, have got accustomed to the lifestyle,that we have created over the past 3 / 4 years, and that could be difficult to "come back down" from, where going back to a job where your supervisor is a snotty nosed kid, whose Father owns the Firm,and is only there because of that, also having to put up with idiots, you would ignore at the best of times........everyone in this industry had to start somewhere, the problem I'm guessing is that the Iraq crowd, and I include myself in this category, started when there was a huge boom in the industry, and we started at the top pay level, with that being said, we should not be chastised for this, as we didn't make the salary baseline!

doitforjonny

11 January 2007, 11:49

Thank you sir, you just gave me the idea for my new thread...

SOTB

11 January 2007, 15:43

....the problem I'm guessing is that the Iraq crowd, and I include myself in this category, started when there was a huge boom in the industry, and we started at the top pay level, with that being said, we should not be chastised for this, as we didn't make the salary baseline!No one has stated anything negative towards the guys having been paid, or being given "large" paychecks. No one has stated anything negative to the idea that someone would refuse to work for less than those wages.

The "problem" -- or issue which has generated the majority of the comments is related to the statements made by people whom believe that there is some sort of crime or wrong being committed by those unwilling to pay those higher salaries. No "wrong" has been committed, and if the complaining person does not like the fact he can no longer get a job for the wages he previously enjoyed, he can either take a lower paycheck, or find a different employment venue.

Personally, I hope -- sincerely -- that most lose interest in this "fad" of independent contract security work. Then it will go back to demonstrated experience and skill being the motivation for hiring someone, vice just needing to fill a blot with a warm body who is willing to deploy at a moment's notice -- only to whine 24/7 once downrange because his internet connection isn't as fast as at home (or whatever other complaint seems to dominate the daily whine sheets of major service suppliers). Pay will still be good for those dudes, and sometimes even reaching (albeit probably on a temp basis) the higher 2003-2004 salaries.

You made a comment that "others" in the sandboxes earn as much, if not more, than security contractors. Do you know WHY this is? I have my opinions as to why, but I am interested in yours....

Argyll 50

11 January 2007, 16:40

The others are different skilled "tradesmen", such as the IT and Comms people, and I have no problems with what they're paid either because they can earn a bloody good salary back at home......I know some comms guy who were on £300 a day in the UK for climbing Telecom towers, and they took wage cuts to work in Iraq.....

It's no different from being in the Non Security Industry back at Home, I used to be a share fisherman at one time, when I left the Army, working the West Coast of Scotland, earning some weeks £1000, and other weeks a big fat zero due to weather and breakdowns,but fisherman are greedy, the more they catch, the more they want to earn, so the more they want to go out and catch, but when the catch suddenly gets quota's imposed, they all complain and bitch and moan, and yet, it was their over fishing that caused the problems.....I can see comparison with this industry....

But I agree, if you want to stay the course, then you have to take the rough with the smooth, and accept a lower salary if that's what it takes, the trouble with this is that,lets use CRG as an example,and say Aegis, both doing the same type of gig, both PSD.....CRG personnel all have to have done their HRC course,of which they have to pay for,out of their own pockets initially,to get a foot in the door, Aegis personnel don't have to have any type of CPO coures.
One is paying £172 a day, the other is paying £275 a day....which one appeals more to the sensible man?......There is no real standard in the industry, it's all contract dependant, and how much of a profit margin the Security provider wants to make, if Company A pays $350 a day and has a profit margin of 6% and Company B bidding on the same contract pays $500 a day, but only has a profit margin of 3%, then from a business sense, then Company A will be better off.

Argyll 50

11 January 2007, 16:55

SOTB,I just remembered one of those guys I refered to, he was up at Qudos power station in 2005, this guy was on something like $2500 a day, and had to be brought in to sort out some centrifuge thing, the guy was a pure gem, and I think he wasn't even American, I think he came from Indonesia, but he was one of a handfull of guys who had the expertise on this particular part......he himself couldn't believe how much they, GE were paying him to fly into the country and fix the problem.

SOTB

11 January 2007, 19:42

Argyll,

There it is. You get paid for a skill that you can demonstrate competency in and/or are willing to deploy to a location where it is unlikely to find many with that same skill level.

In the end it is ALL about supply versus demand.

The problem is that many who are whining right now do not realize that supply has simply caught up to the demand. This at the same time that consumers are requiring lower costs.

Still, if you have the talent and experience, you can still make a decent living -- if this is the career field you wish to work in. You'll just find yourself with less and less peers....

079E/R

11 January 2007, 19:52

The others are different skilled "tradesmen", such as the IT and Comms people, and I have no problems with what they're paid either because they can earn a bloody good salary back at home.....

In 2005 I worked on a detail with an english guy who had gained non-destructive testing qualifications after he had left the military. He hadn't realised that there was a market for guys with that skill until he met some engineers from Parsons (having chow in the DFAC) who put him in the right direction, next thing he resigns and is back in country a little over a month later earning significantly more money, working less hours and with less risk. More power to them, if I could be earning even the same money working on a centrifuge or a pipeline or whatever without the risks vs. rolling around in a motocade there isn't a question what I'd rather be doing.......why didn't I pay attention in school ;)

welshhound

11 January 2007, 20:07

Well been reading this and other threads for a couple of weeks with great interest. You guys are pretty clued up on the latest developments in the security industry, good reading.
Somehow I feel I've missed the boat somewhat! Was pestered a few years back when it all went pear shaped in Afghan and Iraq to go and work there PSD etc. but thought better of it at the time. Then last year when most of mates who made it out alive and back in the UK I decide it's time for me. Enroled on a CP course in Hereford and brought back up to speed with firearms. Was fortunate or unfortunate to get interview with AG in London but they was reluctant to offer any PSD type work and was more optimistic about my current role as a Police officer. I send out my CV and covering letter, of which I still send to AG and to around 60 other PMC's and POC's. I guess with a lot of the contracts nearing their term and some scaling down their operations I am struggling a bit! Might even consider harassing CRG to get my foot on this ever decreasing ladder!

079E/R

11 January 2007, 20:18

Enroled on a CP course in Hereford and brought back up to speed with firearms.....

Don't they use AirSoft 'weapons' on the courses held in the UK due to the firearm laws? I thought you had to go to Spain with Phoenix to actually get hands on with real weapons and live ammo?

welshhound

11 January 2007, 20:22

It was all dry training in the UK but live in the Czech republic, was just a week but enough to blow the cobwebs away and get to know which end hurts! Can't beat experience through regular range days though.

leopardprey

11 January 2007, 20:47

"where going back to a job where your supervisor is a snotty nosed kid, whose Father owns the Firm,and is only there because of that, also having to put up with idiots, you would ignore at the best of times"

Argyll, where you talking about the COE or Parsons? LOL

tboy

11 January 2007, 20:49

In the end it is ALL about supply versus demand.
There it is in a nutshell.

Don't they use AirSoft 'weapons' on the courses held in the UK due to the firearm laws? I thought you had to go to Spain with Phoenix to actually get hands on with real weapons and live ammo?
Dont Armor Group now own that?? I am of the understanding they do and make everyone who wants employment with them go to and pay for the course themselves? If so not a bad money making plan considering Armor are still one of the major players in Iraq.

tboy

11 January 2007, 20:53

welshhound

11 January 2007, 21:00

Unfortunately I went with another training provider in Hereford which doesn't appear to carry much clout if any with securing employment! I could have done the same course for £2k less and still met all the criteria for the SIA licence. that's life, you always find out afterwards

tboy

11 January 2007, 21:11

Peacedog2005

11 January 2007, 21:19

Gentlemen,
Thank you all for the information provided over the last few days. Especially those folks who PM'd me. Basically, my choice came down to a contract I had with MPRI as a analyst or the AGA position. Your comments have helped tremendously with that decision. When I get to the sandbox I'll let everyone know how it goes.
Again thank you for your time,
Peacedog

leopardprey

11 January 2007, 21:27

I am thinking of leaving the security field in the future, getting my TESL certificate and getting a job in Vietnam or China for about $1500 a month. There I can work as an English teacher, teaching 25-30 hours a week and have a life!

One thing nice about working in Iraq, if you do it right, is to save up a good nest egg and/or pay off a house and then it gives you the freedom to take lesser paying jobs that you really enjoy and yet still have financial security. In many parts of the USA, 1 year working in Iraq will give you enough to buy a decent 3 bed/2 bath house. Those living in California, a couple of years working in Iraq will give you enough for the down payment! LOL

Guy

11 January 2007, 21:42

Those living in California, a couple of years working in Iraq will give you enough for the down payment! LOLPeople wonder why...nurses from the East Coast come out here and work for six months...

Stay safe.

Argyll 50

12 January 2007, 04:24

SOTB, the current situation in the security Industry is no different than what's happening in the Building Trade here in Scotland, the local Native Tradesmen have had it their own way for years,and on their turf, but now the Poles, Bulgarians and other Eastern Block skilled and so called skilled Tradesmen are coming in, and are working for a lot less than the locals, almost 50% less in some cases,so locals who were used to working for £20 quid an hour,are being undercut by Foreigners who live 10 to a house,it's great for their employers, as they see profit margins soar......because of a lower wage Bill,so the locals are left with a stark choice either drop their own base level, or change jobs, and or locations.......that's fine,if the standard of living is the same as what the Eastern Europeans are endearing, but it is not, they are, like I said renting property, and turning it into bunk houses, where it would house a normal typical family of 2 adults and 2 children, they will have 10 people living there.....
What does this all boil down to,well it boils down to profit margins at the end of the day, the local businessman who employed locals for years and made a steady profit, and built up a good reputation as being a good employer in the area, now makes a larger profit margin,has pushed his bread and butter locally known tradesmen out the door in favour or cheaper labour,and is now resented by the local population......even if he has a higher turnover of staff, and at the end of the day it's the difference of knowing what you have/and had,in terms of experience over the uncertainty of what you're getting.....exactly the way it is with CRG.
Everyone has a baseline wage they will not work for in their heads, but when push comes to shove,that might just change on the ground, and the situation.

Viking

12 January 2007, 04:56

I am thinking of leaving the security field in the future, getting my TESL certificate and getting a job in Vietnam or China for about $1500 a month. There I can work as an English teacher, teaching 25-30 hours a week and have a life!
One thing nice about working in Iraq, if you do it right, is to save up a good nest egg and/or pay off a house and then it gives you the freedom to take lesser paying jobs that you really enjoy and yet still have financial security.

Excellent attitude. Why you don't hear more of this type of thinking I'll never understand.

Argyll 50

12 January 2007, 05:07

Viking

12 January 2007, 05:36

Maybe because some folks just keep their thoughts to themselves mate?...I've heard plenty of guys say it , and many did it, and after a year out of doing nothing, found themselves bored, and are now back doing what they do best!!

No doubt, I can definitely see boredom being a factor. Downshifting from "switched on" to school teacher is no small task. My point is that I see too many guys doing the dollar sign thing when there are much more important things in life.

zdfg

12 January 2007, 05:59

Viking,

I think you will start seeing more and more of this mentality in the near future. I certainly am. A lot of guys who have been hard it since 2001-2003 are now starting to voice their opinions that there is indeed life after this, and most seem eager to get on with it. Most are hanging in their for the financial reasons, and I rarely bump into anyone anymore who's heart seems to be in it. The average contractor I know spends somewhere between 9-11 months a year downrange, and have been doing this every year since the end of 2001 to early 2003. This exceeds the deployment cycle of any military outfit that I know of.

I was commenting to someone offline the other day that it's ironic how I can't break out this cycle long enough to try for a legitimate job stateside, because I can't give up a sure deal for a 'maybe' or a 3-5 month testing cycle, which might result in a goose-egg.

So for me my exit strategy is to downsize, and do one more year, unless something materializes back home.

It's ironic that there are literally thousands of guys who want nothing more than to be over here, and many people including myself, now want nothing more than to be back there. My personal motivation revolves entirely around an 18th month old little boy who needs a father and a dad who wants to be one.

leopardprey

12 January 2007, 06:01

I don't see myself getting bored in Veitnam at all. And $1000 to $1500 month allows one to live a very comfortable lifestyle. Now, missing the large paycheck, I could definately see me missing that. But, when is enough enough? It is amazing how many of us were getting by working as firefighters, cops, managers, etc.. before Iraq on $40K to 50K per year and now we think anything below 100K per year is peanuts.

Argyll 50

12 January 2007, 06:04

Yes, I agree, however these important things in life, need some form of financial help to achieve in the first place, what I believe in this case with Iraq, is that most of the guys know this will one day end,though I'm optimstic about this myself, as I see a long term future for some PSC's and PMC's ,in Iraq with or without a Military presence in country,and are making as much money as they can before it's no longer an "open market".

But then again, take a look at the David Beckham fiasco, he's a multi millionaire,and doesn't need to work another day in his life, and yet he's going to be paid £70,000 a day for playing soccer for 90 minutes a week, plus a little bit of training in between,kind of puts our $500 a day into a little perspective doesn't it, and some people ask, are we worth $500 a day!!!?

SOTB

12 January 2007, 06:47

But then again, take a look at the David Beckham fiasco, he's a multi millionaire,and doesn't need to work another day in his life, and yet he's going to be paid £70,000 a day for playing soccer for 90 minutes a week, plus a little bit of training in between,kind of puts our $500 a day into a little perspective doesn't it, and some people ask, are we worth $500 a day!!!?Once again, you either don't understand the whole supply and demand concept OR you just want to complain.

If you want Beckham's salary, go do what he does. Don't bemoan him for his abilities to get that salary -- anymore than someone should whine about you getting yours.

Are you worth $500 a day? It all depends upon whether I can get the same or better quality for less....

Argyll 50

12 January 2007, 08:15

SOTB......I take it you're well versed in the Beckhams?....There's a difference between supply and demand and marketing a product mate, well maybe not in your eyes, but there is in mine.....would I complain if I found someone stupid enough to pay me £70000 a day, for what I do, jesus H no,but If I was a multi millionaire, there's no way in hell I'd be able to spend what I earn anyway, and once you're dead, you cannot take it with you, so other than being solely motivated by money,what will you do with such a vast fortune?

You know,mate, you're constantly having some kind of dig at me, that's you're perogative, I'm wondering if this all stems back from my original rant at your Employer?.....I've not once said I'm worth any particular amount,and I've not once said what I'll not work for, and I'm not naive to think I'm anything special either, but I am confident in my own abilities, and the companys I've worked for must also have seen these abilities, as they've put me in command positions in all of them, so I must be doing something right.......of course I'm not naive enough to know that if company A can get X,Y or Z cheaper, without lowering the standards , over Company B, then that's what happens, but you know as well as I do, that doesn't always happen, and I've pointed out, that according to many CRG employees, and former employees, that doing the job cheaper, doesn't neccesary mean the same quality is there from previous years.

I am not complaining about Salaries in Iraq, I've been lucky to have been given the chance to do the job in the first place, I'm more than happy with what I've been paid, and if I have to take a paycut, then I will, as I've pointed out already, I have done so twice already....Why would I complain about making more money in a week, than it took me four months to make before I came to Iraq ?

SOTB

12 January 2007, 09:04

SOTB......I take it you're well versed in the Beckhams?....There's a difference between supply and demand and marketing a product mate, well maybe not in your eyes, but there is in mine....Argyll, If I appear to be "dogging" you, then I apologize. Your posts are what I am referring to -- not you.

As to the Beckhams and the rest of your post -- of course it is marketing. Right? But it is also a demand issue, which usually superceeds or over-rides any marketing campaign. Having said that, there are some really good examples of marketing campaigns which generated demand.

If you take your example of a sports player, this is a demand -- and a little bit of marketing -- issue. I heard this morning that Beckham just signed for 5 years and at US$250M -- whereupon the announcer (and American) commented that "it is just soccer." Well, in the US there is the perception that the demand isn't high enough to warrant that salary. Maybe there is, but if an opposing team finds players who are every bit as good as Beckham -- but at a fraction of the price, you can believe they will be hired and fielded.

In your case, it is no different. I have numerous US guys who bemoan the fact that Aussies, Brits, and NZ'ers will work for less. You bemoan the fact that Chileans, Thais, and Filipinos will undercut you. They will bemoan the fact that LNs will undercut them. In the end, if the client will pay the higher salary, who would refuse him that option? Unfortunately for many of you, the client(s) are stepping back away from the table of the higher salaries. Its NORMAL.

Finally, you cannot deny that your posts have a whiny air about them. Here you are bitching about money, and then you dare to point to a guy making hordes of it, and making it appear as if he is greedy. Who the fuck cares if he dies and has his ass buried in a solid platinum coffin? Who are we to bemoan anyone for being successful, even if we do not understand how that success came about (unless achieved through illegal means, in which case we SHOULD complain)? Are you also going to state that Steve Jobs or Bill Gates don't deserve what they have gained? Or Madonna? Or anyone who has gotten there? And will you also complain about those of your league who have gotten wealthy -- beyond what they can take to their graves?

No, I am not attacking you outright, but I can also read how you write. And you write as if you are jealous and pissed because you didn't get yours -- which IMO are not attributes you would wish to use when "marketing" yourself....

Argyll 50

12 January 2007, 09:39

LOL.....I just PM'd you mate.....we're going round in circles!!

I'm a Scotsman, the Beckhams are Masho's, there's no love lost there, it's like Americans and French!!....There's many many more people beside myself, who think that the Beckhams are tossers, rich or poor, he was a gifted footballer, she was a small part of a succesful girl group, but on her own she was a nobody, and proved that her success wasn't down to her hard work, it was down to snaring Beckham.

Off course I'm not jealous of these high earners, where I come from in my town,the couple of Security guys who also live here, are amongst the top earners , I have a nice house, my original one from 12 years ago, a lovely wife, 2 little shits for kids(kidding),and a nice car, I have more than I could hope for, I have a very good quality of life, and I'm not having to go out to sea in shit weather to make a wage like I did before Iraq......Life is good mate,I know where my background came from, and I'm one of the few people of my age, who actually left their small town to better themselves, I have achieved so much more,I've travelled the world, met interesting people, had to shoot at a few mind you, and lived my life to the full.....it was getting stale until I got the Iraq work, and now I'm in my element again, doing a job I love with people I respect, and getting paid handsomely for doing so........there are not many people who can say this.

Respect mate.......and apologies if I sound like I'm whining, it's not supposed to come across like that.

SOTB

12 January 2007, 09:43

Respect mate.......and apologies if I sound like I'm whining, it's not supposed to come across like that.Cool....

079E/R

12 January 2007, 20:03

I have numerous US guys who bemoan the fact that Aussies, Brits, and NZ'ers will work for less.

SOTB, I'm only speaking for the Australian side of the house here, but I really don't think that any of us would willingly work for less than our US counterparts for the sake of securing employment. It's a small community of guys in the ME (on a scale compared to US guys) and a lot of us know each other and keep in touch through the usual channels. Like any other guys we talk about our respective gigs, pay and conditions etc etc. I have NEVER heard of guys saying that they would willingly work for less than what that company paid other ex-pats, or offer their services for less in order to secure a gig, essentially undercutting and fucking other guys out of a job. Call me naive, but that is not the Aussie way, I'm sorry. Sure, there are the usual suspects who are absoloutely desperate to get work and would probably stoop to those kind of lows (i.e Nightclub coolers, wannabe heroes, nutjobs etc...probably not the people you would want anyway), but the majority of professional guys would simply not accept a job working with/alongside american guys doing the same work if they knew they were getting paid less, especially those with SOF backgrounds. I know you are in a management position and decide pay rates for contracts etc etc....no disrespect intended, but I have to disagree.