BSR Security Driving Instructor AAR

[Massgrunt]

Aka, "Drive It Like You Stole It"

First of all, this class was a blast from start to finish. I defy you to go through it without a grin plastered across your face.

The course is held at the Summit Point Raceway in Summit Point, West Virginia. I don't have the dimensions of the track, but it was good and long with plenty of different twists and turns. You get to know it pretty well, but it doesn't get repetitve. There is plenty of room for error on the sides, and you'll probably need it! One car was wrecked during training, no injuries. The classroom was clean and comfortable, with coffee always going and lunch delivered every day.

There were a couple other classes running at the facility, including a government agency and a major security firm.

Driving time from Baltimore or Washington is a little over an hour. There are plenty of motels in Winchester, Virginia about twenty minutes away.


The Security Driving Instructor Course is a five-day program training the trainer in vehicle dynamics, high-speed driving, bootlegs, j-turns, and the precision immobilization technique.

SCHEDULE
Day One
0900-0930 Vehicle Dynamics Lecture I.
Understanding the driver/vehicle relationship. Vehicle language, driving form, weight transfer, ocular driving, threshold braking and off-road recoveries.
0930-1030 Vehicle Dynamics Practical I.
Students practice these skills through serpentine and emergency braking exercises. Surprise off-road recoveries are conducted throughout the day.
1030-1100 Vehicle Dynamics Lecture II.
Skid control and spin recovery. Understanding oversteer and understeer, and how they are controlled. How tire pressure affects performance and how to prevent blowouts.
1100-1200 Vehicle Dynamics Practical II.
Skid control (oversteer and understeer) is conducted on our skid pad, and advanced emergency threshold braking.
1200-1300 Lunch
1300-1330 Vehicle Dynamics Lecture III.
Understanding multiple dynamics, braking, braking in curves, and swerving-to-avoid obstacles.
1330-1430 Vehicle Dynamics Practical III.
Emergency braking in turns and swerve-to-avoid obstacles.
1430-1500 Technical Drive and Mental Aspects Lecture.
The laws of vehicle dynamics are applied to allow vehicle control at above highway speeds. Techniques of stress management are discussed.
1500-1600 Technical Drive Practical.
The laws of vehicle dynamics are applied to maintain control at emergency speeds.
1600-1700
Technical Drive Final.
Students are asked to drive at emergency speeds under pressure, applying acquired skills.
At Dark Night Drive Lecture.
How to safely drive fast at night considering limited visibility and light problems.
One Hour Night Drive Practical.
Each driver is challenged to drive as fast as safely possible staying in his lane.

Day Two
0900-1000 Street-Line Practical.
Students drive as fast as safely possible staying in their lane.
1000-1100 Unfamiliar Roads.
Students plan, then drive as fast as safely possible, in their lane, over roads not previously driven.
1100-1200 Lead/Follow (Predictable Route).
Students must maintain contact chasing an instructor, staying in his lane at above highway speeds.
1200-1300 Lunch
1300-1430 Imminent Collisions Practical.
When a collision is unavoidable, students are shown the way to minimize damage and injury.

SUV Emergency Handling.
Students conduct vehicle dynamics exercises on wet roads in higher center of gravity SUV's.

Forward/Reverse 180’s.
Students learn the bootleg and J-turn as quick ways to reverse direction.
1430-1700 Backing.
Techniques of driving in reverse around obstacles at low and high speeds.

Lead/Follow (Random Route).
Simulated pursuit exercises where the student must maintain contact with instructor who is fleeing over random routes the student has not driven. Route combines high-speed highway simulation with slow-speed congested areas with lots of turns.

Day Three
0900-0930
Precision Immobilization Technique (PIT) Lecture.
Students learn the Precision Immobilization Technique (PIT), the safest and most efficient way for one car to stop a moving automobile.
0930-1030 PIT Practical.
Students practice the PIT maneuver.
1030-1045 Tactical Vehicle Interception (TVI) Lecture.
How to use two cars to stop a fleeing automobile. This technique builds on the PIT maneuver by adding a second vehicle to insure the fleeing vehicle cannot escape once stopped.
1045-1200 TVI Practical.
Students conduct the TVI maneuver.
1200-1300 Lunch
1300-1400 Methods of Instruction Lecture.
The basic principles to teaching from platform to in-car instruction.
1400-1530 Serpentine Instructor Workshop.
All workshops aim at putting the student in teaching situations where the student must diagnose problems and provide the proper corrective solution. Instructors role-play as students making common errors.
1530-1700 Threshold Braking Instructor Workshop.
Instructor makes common threshold braking errors to see if student can diagnose problem and provide solutions to improve performance.

Day Four
0900-1200 Braking in Turns/Swerve-to-Avoid Instructor Workshop.
These skills are the most challenging for an instructor candidate to master.
1200-1300 Lunch
1300-1530 Technical Driving Instructor Workshop.
Student sits in right front seat and steers while instructor operates the gas and brakes to instill confidence in student that student can save car by steering from right front seat. Normal workshop format follows.
1530-1700 PIT Instructor Workshop.
Student teaches instructor how to conduct this maneuver.

Day Five
0900-1000 Surviving Vehicle Attacks Lecture.
Review of some past terrorist attacks, route analysis, and importance of mental preparation.
1000-1045 Forward and Reverse 180's Review - Right Front Seat & Manual Shifts.
Practice maneuvers from right front seat and in manual shift cars.
1045-1100 Attack Recognition
The importance of being mentally prepared in order to execute an escape maneuver.
1100-1200 Barricade Confrontations Practical.
Students come under simulated attack and must choose and execute the correct escape maneuver.
1200-1300 Lunch
1300-1500 Forward and Reverse 180's Instructor Workshop.
Student teaches instructor evasive maneuvers while identifying problems and provides solutions.

Barricade Confrontations Instructor Workshop.
Techniques of setting up an exercise where the student executes the correct escape maneuver to different situations.
1500-1700 Defensive Line.
Techniques to prevent the student from being stopped by another car who is trying to knock the student off the road using car-to-car contact.

Security Driving Instructor Course (SDI) cost: $2,495* per student.

This was a great course. It was mainly police and military, with a handful of private security people. The instructors really knew their material, and conveyed it well. Lecture time was kept to a minimum, with the focus on practical application out on the track. On the first day, students were assigned a car and instructor. Mine was an active duty Army 1st Sgt on leave, and he did a great job of conveying the material.

The biggest thing you bring away from this course is breaking bad habits built up over years of driving, like bad posture and poor understanding of how the vehicle performs. The instinctive reaction usually isn't the right thing to do, for example looking at what you are trying to avoid and entering turns too fast and too early. This is the foundation that you build on for the rest of the week. From the first day, you're learning to safely push the vehicle (Chevy Caprices with the police pursuit package) to it's limits.

The driving time was great, and the 3-1 student to instructor ratio ensured plenty of personal coaching. And keeping the same instructor all week meant he was familiar with your weak areas. Each day you build on what you've already learned and by the end of the week you improve considerably. Technical driving really isn't too difficult to learn if you pay attention and listen to your instructor. It doesn't feel like work, either. This is driving the way you've always wanted to.

Probably the most enjoyable parts of the course were the PIT maneuver, barricade ramming, and defense against the PIT maneuver. This is done with a fleet of banged up junker cars that still have some life left in them. After these segments of training the track is littered with bumpers, tires and who knows what. It seemed like the bumpers of our cars was directly connected towards the grin reflex; each collision, spin and freindly tap lead to wild laughter from both students and instructors. It was like an amusement park for grown men.

A few minor criticisms: We could have spent a little more time on Line Defense, with each student only getting one loop around the track to practice. The reason given was that it was too hard on the cars, which it was. But that was what we were paying for.

Some students thought that the matchup of students to instructors could have been better. One group had a race car driver as an instructor. They had nothing bad to say about his skill or ability to teach, but they'd have preferred someone with an operational background.

One thing I wasn't too happy with: I asked for a copy of the power point slides used in the classroom and was told that they couldn't be distributed because in the past they'd showed up at other schools. Well, it IS an instructor course, isn't it? That struck me as cheap, considering the price of the course. It isn't cheap, and the provided instructor's manual isn't as comprehensive.

A refresher course would be a good addition, since these are perishable skills. More driving during the week would have been nice, but I don't think it would have been practical to squeeze much more into the schedule.


I entered this course thinking I was a pretty good driver, and I know I progressed by leaps and bounds. I don't think anyone came away thinking they'd wasted their time or money.

http://bsr-inc.com/

[Silverbullet]

Good review Mass. Thanks

[mdwest]

thanks for the review MG...

im sending 2 of my guys to that program later this year...

[SOTB]

OK, I'll be the spoilsport.

MY problem with this driving instructor course -- as well as those provided by other schools -- is that you are often taking a student with minimal evasive driving skills (no offense MG) and asking him/her to suddenly have the ability to teach a "high-risk" subject (high-risk not only in real life, but in training as well) to students with even LESS skills. I suppose the only thing worse than this scenario would be placing this junior "instructor" with students that have MORE skills than the instructor (I've personally seen what can happen when a class of HSLD dudes come in to train with "weak" instructors, students who all who have over 3-5 courses under their belts -- and these just within the past couple of years of attending the course with the weaker instructor).

I think the BSR instructor course tries to do too many things at once. And in trying, fails in the most important -- that of ensuring that a student knows WHY a training point is important -- versus just HOW to do the task (oh, and knowing how to do something does not mean that the "instructor" can teach that "something"). Therefore, you have -- IMO -- a student who is really (ironically enough) less practiced in driving skills than he/she would have been in a normal course, and under the more-than-likely WRONG impression that he/she might actually be skilled enough to impart that knowledge onto others. And as mentioned, unlikely to know WHY one type of skill or exercise whould be taught over another.

Driver training isn't any different than firearms training, in the sense that both of them are potentionally dangerous. The difference with driver training, is that once the student loses control, the time it takes for the control to be re-established may be MUCH longer than if this were a firearms drill. And the potential to injure and damage are often far greater with vehicles -- although admittedly a student firing a couple of rounds into a fellow student are not likely to be any "safer" than wrecking a car.

IMO, just as in the case of many so-called firearms instructors courses or even "advanced" courses, driver instructor courses should require a background which demonstrates that the student will have a firm grasp on the subject matter before attending the course. And then once in the course, the emphasis should really be on TEACHING versus doing. This is where that whole "why" thing comes into play.

See, WHY a particular scenario is set up for students is as much -- if not more -- of importance to the instructor than the actual scenario itself. Additionally, the dangers of what can go wrong when the scenario is badly laid out, or incorrectly performed by the student need to be emphasized. Its really hard to teach the WHY when the student racing around the track at mach 10 learning the HOW. I've looked at MANY a student and asked him, during an exercise, if he understood what was happening around him. I offer to you, that in more than 90% of those occasions, the student was too involved with dealing with the stress to have any ability to contemplate why his fuckups were causing me to roll my eyes and gently steer us diagonally into a tirewall (versus straight on, sideways, or spinning). I notice that the above course outline gives no time for such mundane topics as car maintenance, set-up of an exercise or course of instruction over non-road track environments, common errors of instructors (or of students), outside the car versus inside the car instruction and how to perform both (other than obviously what is imparted in the inside the car blocks covered), selection of exercise locations, etc., etc. These topics may have been covered, but if they were, it appears they would have been done so outside of the period of instruction originally planned -- in which case, they would probably (IMO) have had insufficient detail.

I'm glad MG got to attend the course, but I think that the course is NOT the appropriate venue for 98% of the guys who would want to attend. What is the answer? Damned if I know. I've been through several "driving instructor" courses and have been a driving instructor myself for about 20 years, and I still haven't seen the course I would suggest for an instructor. I don't think the problem is that it cannot be taught, but that the course isn't going to be popular with those that have the money to attend -- making it not economically viable for the companies that want to provide it. I think a company or org could design that course and then have the very capable instructors at BSR (or other companies, to be fair) come in and teach that course.

As it currently is, I think the course outlined above is not really a good deal for the overwhelming majority of students. And I accept that I am in the minority opinion of that....

[Massgrunt]

SOTB you're missing the point... I got to smash up cars! :D

Venue selection, vehicle prep, student and instructor errors are all covered in the manual.

As for off road, really the only thing covered was recovery from going off the road. The course is definitely geared towards towards cars, on a paved road. As a matter of fact, I see SUVs in the schedule but we never used them.

A week obviously isn't long enough to make you an expert. At the end of the week, you've eliminated most errors, but it's not second nature. Another whole week would have been good, but cost prohibitive. It's definitely not the be-all end-all, but I think it was valuable.

[mdwest]

were in a real fortunate position here...

ive got one of the former senior instructors from the USAMPS driving track working here... spent several years doing nothing but driving and teaching advanced driving skills to CID agents, etc...

he is who is doing all of our "internal" driver training...

what we are doing is sending our senior guys who have already completed a basic driver program or two, who have spent a considerable amount of time behind the wheel with our in house instructor, and who drive as a primary responsibility on a daily basis to the BSR course... and hope they will be able to come back and start helping out with the "internal", ongoing driver training that we do here...

so the issue of inexperienced, or unqualified driving instructors doesnt really apply to us...

but i am in total agreement with you SOTB... BSR pushes ALOT of information in a short period of time.. and there is potential for someone to get through the course, who has a minimal amount of experience and/or ability, who then thinks its ok for them to go out and teach high risk, perishible skill sets to people who may one day count on them for their lives...

we've taken every opprotunity to eliminate that situation from our equation here, by hand selecting the people we send, based on previous training, experience, and proven abilities...

but it doesnt mean that everyone else who sends people there does that, or that there arent a significant amount of "independants" going there (or to all the other schools) who probably shouldnt be teaching/training anyone else just because they completed the instructor program...

but as long as the "student" understands his/her own personal abilities and limitations after they finish the course, and doesnt try to step out of their lane just because they are a "graduate"... i dont see any reason for them not to attend... its a proven school, with solid instructors, good facilities, etc.. and any training someone receives there will be worth the money spent... (that puts alot of faith in humans not to step out of their lane and try to be something they really are not though i guess...)

[SOTB]

SOTB you're missing the point... I got to smash up cars!I know, dude. It IS fun. Of course, you didn't get to smash up the numbers I would have suggested, but you did get at least "some" time and experience.Venue selection, vehicle prep, student and instructor errors are all covered in the manual.Yup. You confirmed my point exactly.As for off road, really the only thing covered was recovery from going off the road. The course is definitely geared towards towards cars, on a paved road. As a matter of fact, I see SUVs in the schedule but we never used them.I think that off-road driving is almost it's own thing, so no real problem with not including it in this course of instruction. I also do not find myself intimidated by their not being large amounts of instruction in high center-of-gravity vehicles. I know WHY I feel that way, and how I would explain that to a student, but I also realize that not many students understand the reasoning behind having or not having these types of vehicles in a course.A week obviously isn't long enough to make you an expert....It's definitely not the be-all end-all, but I think it was valuable.I also understand and agree with you. I believe that a course dedicated to just teaching you driving skills would have been more along your needs. And that is not meant to demean your previous or aquired-at-BSR skills. I just think that the instructor course as advertised and taught is really insufficient. It helps that I was there when that course was designed, and had some of the fault in how it was set up (in that I did not fight hard enough to change it when I should have)....

[SOTB]

we've taken every opprotunity to eliminate that situation from our equation here, by hand selecting the people we send, based on previous training, experience, and proven abilities....Some would state that you are "lucky" (to have your situation). I disagree. I think you guys are "smart" (by doing it right, even though it requires more work/energy)....

[Silverbullet]

MG was upfront about wanting to be a better tactical driver. He is in a position that requires this skill to make a living and survive. I don't feel he was trying to use this crse to become an instructor. It was valuable to him and his future. He wrote a good AAR.

The debate about if this crse is GTG to make someone an instructor is valuable but does not really pertain to MG's situation. Please keep the follow on debate of this or any crse being appropiate to make someone a driving instructor away from MG.

[SOTB]

I would hope that my comments were not intended as a slam on MG. As I stated back a couple of months ago when he was shopping around for the course to go to, I think its demonstrative of his professionalism that he would even try to go on his own dime (versus sit comfortably on his ass and wait for an employer to send him).

My comments should be taken as a criticism of the course itself -- not of MG or any other student's abilities. Furthermore, my criticism is not really so much of BSR's course, but of the mindset utilized to design these courses, and of the danger to consumers (especially institutional ones) who might not realize what they are getting out of attending one....

[mdwest]

SB,
understood... definately wasnt trying to single out MG in any way.... hell.. i attended my first LEO "instructor" course (PPCT Defensive Tactics) when i was less than a year out of the academy and just barely out of FTO status.. at its conclusion i was in NO WAY ready, skilled enough, or prepared to "teach" veteran LEO's who had been duking it out in the streets for a decade or more how to better defend themselves in a common LEO situation... but i was certainly better prepared to meet that challenge (self defense) for myself as a result of attending the course (not that i agree much with PPCT.. but it was what was offered...)... like i said in the previous post.. any GOOD training package is worth attending... and i think MG will definately benefit as a result of attending.. the resume will look better.. the skills sets should have improved.. and im sure there were some networking opportunities to be had there as well...

i was just driving home the point (that im sure most of us here would agree on..) that just because someone attends an "instructor" course, it doesnt necessarily make them a good "teacher"... i think everyone would be better served if more "instructors" realized this...

getting back to the original subject matter... the AAR... i do appreciate the feedback... we spend a considerable amount of money (not just in tuitions.. but in travel, salaries, insurance, etc..) to send our guys out all over the place to attend training... while our driving guy is more than a little familiar with BSR (he is an "instructor" grad from there as well.. and pretty much has a standing offer from them to come teach there any time he wants...).. its always good to get a recent perspective as well as a "student" perspective.. helps me to make the decision as to where i want to spend money, time, etc.. and where i want to dedicate assets..

thanks again MG....

[doitforjonny]

over the last two years or so there have been a few companies enhancing existing, or building from the ground up, tactical driving courses and tracks, in response to the emerging training needs. since we are talking about vehicle courses i though this would an appropriate place to ask a question thats been bugging me. if it is too off topic please move.

are there any sites out there that are incorporating urban off road skills?

(ie curb/island courses and clearances, when to transition from BNL techniques to offroad techniques, adapting offroad extraction techniques to urban extraction techniques(high centered suburban, how to tow across a curb, demonstrating entry angle and understanding of capabilities of equipment while towing through urban environment), and the other concerns of the current overseas tactical issues)

in the same way that infantry mout tactics are different from surgical cqb tactics, and that there are lines of transition between these two frameworks at different times in a mission(ie outside vice inside)

i have been wanting to see a course of instruction evolve that would in the same way combine offroad techniques with BNL street techniques, and when and how to transition between the two, in a classroom or school environment.

to facilitate this maybe also a new course of instruction in urban offroading that would incorporate a curb/island course, which could be easily made and maintained and would consist of multiple islands or curbs with different heights that would require the driver to select appropriate exit and entry angles in a challenging way, with different vehicles in convoy, simulating the requirement to know the capabilities of all different vehicles in the convoy(ie driving a lead toyota with a trail suburban, or a lead hummvee with a trail sedan,etc.).

the towing and extraction of a vehicle in an urban environment that would address the pros and cons of possible equipment(straps vice chains), would address techniques(ie dont try and drag an armored vehicle at rest over a curb with both front tires on the curb, how you can use a 5k rated strap effectively to make do, techniques of ramming out a vehicle on a high center straddle), and the safety issues of a permissive environment vice a high threat environment(ie strap snappage vice time on target)

the thought of this all came from watching otherwise good drivers assing themselves up from a lack of basic understanding of technical offroad techniques.

sending a bunch of vehicles out on a mud bogging tree killing mission until they get stuck and then going through the different methods of extraction is not enough to give a potential protective driver the off road knowledge base to appropriately apply off road concepts to the current urban environment.

having conducted walk throughs of the above mentioned drills i found that exposing the whole team to these concepts in a way tailored specifically to address urban offroading resulted in a more confident package, especially after a particulary scary straddle scenario where we had a vehicle stalled and motionless with wheels on either side of a very high island, which could have been avoided had the driver been educated properly in simple entry and exit angles, and wheel/undercarriage awareness.

[SOTB]

over the last two years or so there have been a few companies enhancing existing, or building from the ground up, tactical driving courses and tracks, in response to the emerging training needs.Hopefully I do not seem too jaundiced in my reply, but rather than "in response to the emerging training needs," I think it is more likely that these sites were built "in response to the emerging training DOLLARS." There is a difference, sadly. And I think that most of the sites I have seen have been set up for the DOLLARS.....BNL street techniques, and when and how to transition between the two, in a classroom or school environment.What are "BNL street techniques?" I apologize for not knowing this, but I don't.....the thought of this all came from watching otherwise good drivers assing themselves up from a lack of basic understanding of technical offroad techniques.Many of the courses out there DO in-fact cover some of the things you refer to. Some courses have small islands set up for curb-jumping (or at least I saw the construction plans, anyway), do cover recovery of a vehicle if it has left the road surface (2 or 4 wheels), what is the angle and speed to mount a curb or sidewalk, etc. But I don't know of one that does it all. Rather that each course seems to have its own interpretation of what is the priority to teach.

Much of the problem with serious urban warrior driving (for lack of a better term to describe it) comes from the fact that for years, we TALKED about how to perform those actions, but until Iraq, no one really put them into practice. Or at least not many people were doing it, and even then, those people weren't doing it often. In Iraq, and I think that largely this was due to ignorance versus good ideas or planning, people were jumping curbs, islands, etc. and getting stuck, breaking axle-mounts, flattening their tires, etc.

I've seen LOTS of people get their vehicles high-centered on a busy road in B-Dad. Or break an axle hitting a pothole on Jalalabad Rd at mach 9. Or get their vehicles (4WD SUVs) stuck in the mud when small 2WD station wagons were going by with no problem.

A sound course of instruction covering what a driver should know and do in these situations is NOT being taught, IMO. And truthfully, I don't think that one is coming (at least in the short term).

Why not? Its all about money.

Driving vehicles up on curbs WILL trash a car. Sooner or later it will. As will high-centering it. Or getting it stuck and towing it out. Those cars cost money. Since many schools utilize a fleet of cars for training over and over, they aren't keen on trashing those fleet cars. They "could" utilize trash cars (cars you will dispose of anyway), but then either the cost of the course is too high, or they simply feel uncomfortable doing that much training where vehicles are impacting anything. Additionally, many courses of instruction that I have seen recently are at schools that have spent a crapload of money on designing their racetrack (you "could" call it a specially-designed road course for evasive driving, but then we all know the truth). And its really hard to sell a course to students looking for high-speed driving, when much of your time is spent at speeds never exceeding 45mph. Worse is hearing the investors when they find you really didn't need that 2.1 mile, 10-turn track to teach students evasive driving.

IMO, a course does NOT have to be conducted on a racetrack to be GREAT, nor should it utilize training cars from a fleet set aside for each class. No, the course can be run almost anywhere (I'm serious), should utilize disposable cars instead of fleet cars, road conditions should be "variable" (a nice way for stating "shitty"), and all exercises -- to include force-on-force scenarios -- should be in disposable cars. This is what I have done for my own people, but it is VERY expensive and I have only been able to do it internally. I seriously doubt if such a course is marketable today, simply due to the costs (although I do know of a couple of small mil-orgs that are doing similar training courses.

Your ideas are things that I think will have to be covered during team/unit training. Hopefully, they will have access to someone with that knowledge to train them, and if not, hopefully common sense will prevail and the right techniques will be taught....

[Massgrunt]

Actually, the reason I chose the instructor course is that it offers more actual driving time than the basic course. I have no intention of doing anything with my little certificate but helping out other guys I may work with down the road. You won't be seeing "Massgrunt's School of Tactical Driving" opening up anytime soon. But I do think the instruction portion was valuable (for the student), since it forced you to correct someone else's mistakes, which made you think a little more about your own errors.

[doitforjonny]

sotb

Hopefully I do not seem too jaundiced in my reply, but rather than "in response to the emerging training needs," I think it is more likely that these sites were built "in response to the emerging training DOLLARS." There is a difference, sadly. And I think that most of the sites I have seen have been set up for the DOLLARS.

thats what i was going to say but i was attempting diplomacy first....(laughing)

What are "BNL street techniques?" I apologize for not knowing this, but I don't.

a couple courses i have been through made mention of this "beyond normal limits" terminology trying to get away from encouraging us students to think of the shit we were learning required "high speed"...and the street techniques was meaning on the street vice off the street, i dont know the right verbage.
more acronym soup.sorry.

Driving vehicles up on curbs WILL trash a car. Sooner or later it will. As will high-centering it. Or getting it stuck and towing it out. Those cars cost money. Since many schools utilize a fleet of cars for training over and over, they aren't keen on trashing those fleet cars. They "could" utilize trash cars (cars you will dispose of anyway), but then either the cost of the course is too high, or they simply feel uncomfortable doing that much training where vehicles are impacting anything.


i had left out a comment pondering that specific reason as a cause.

a way to mitigate the cost i had wondered about was specifically building a fleet designed specifically to be abused in that manner, not at high speed but to put students through their paces. ie full skid plates, reinforced frames mounts the works. but i guess again that would bump uglies with cost.

it seems that it should be possible to build a vehicle like this if recreational offroaders can do it to their vehicles

Many of the courses out there DO in-fact cover some of the things you refer to. Some courses have small islands set up for curb-jumping (or at least I saw the construction plans, anyway)

this was a debrief point to the company i was last with specifically to the driver instructors. i was just wondering if anything had ever come of it. good to hear that they are implementing some of the lessons gained overseas




as far as military i found that the civilian techniques and military techniques were quite different in retrospect. ie mil convoys that i had talked to back conus dont like either side of the road and "never" crossed the median or the sidewalks. idont know if this was just blind adherence to intel/ROE or if this was policy but i also found that most mil drivers were completely unaware of their vehicles capabilities. but this runs to the bureacratic licensing process, and the commands desire to not thrash vehicles so ....(shrug).

i would also like to know that civilian entities were capitalizing on their ability to speed training programs through an approval process and then offering these more current courses and techniques back to the military, but i know that again this is prolly wishful thinking, as everything as you have so aptly put boils down to the training dollar and not the need

[SOTB]

....a way to mitigate the cost i had wondered about was specifically building a fleet designed specifically to be abused in that manner, not at high speed but to put students through their paces. ie full skid plates, reinforced frames mounts the works. but i guess again that would bump uglies with cost.Surprisingly, cost here is not the greatest issue I would be concerned with. Rather, my experience has been overwhelmingly that reinforced vehicles consistently and repeatedly cause the students to believe that a "normal" vehicle won't react the same way as the training vehicle. They simply lose faith in the training. For this reason -- more than any other (including cost) -- I ALWAYS prefer to train with non-reinforced vehicles. This way, there is ZERO doubt in the students' minds that the vehicle he is training in will perfrom just like what he will have in actuality (although in "actuality" his operational vehicle will be FAR better than the training vehicle. On SOME types of exercises, you DO need a fleet vehicle which can still be a non-reinforced vehicle, although it is likely going to need to be a well-maintained vehicle (versus a disposable)-- ie, high-velocity exercises (line theory). But the idea is that in most cases, including evasive maneuvers (well, especially evasive maneuvers -- as in I ALWAYS utilize an equal or smaller car to train ramming through vehicle blockades), you should train with non-reinforced vehicles (IMO).....ie mil convoys that i had talked to back conus dont like either side of the road and "never" crossed the median or the sidewalks. idont know if this was just blind adherence to intel/ROE or if this was policy but i also found that most mil drivers were completely unaware of their vehicles capabilities....I don't know, dude. I've seen LOTS of mil convoys all over the road. My major complaint about these guys is that with their lack of training, they REALLY need to SLOW DOWN. They don't know the vehicles' capabilities, and GREATLY overestimate those of the drivers'.
....civilian entities were capitalizing on their ability to speed training programs through an approval process and then offering these more current courses and techniques back to the military, but i know that again this is prolly wishful thinking, as everything as you have so aptly put boils down to the training dollar and not the needOh, the courses are out there -- they just aren't doing the client justice. I still think that those of us who were doing this 20 years ago are responsable for the errors of today. We got sucked in by the sexiness of things which have little to no positive impact on surviving a vehicle problem, but what we were teaching or being taught sure seemed like a lot of fun. And the clients/we loved it. Now we have to live with the reality that much of what we know are the primary skills are often the things which are either overlooked in many training courses or simply given insufficent attention.

Will it change? Eventually. Some clients are already demanding it, but they are the minority -- simply because many clients/students don't know what to demand. Its hard to be critical of an exercise when the instructors are able to show you that they can easily max your stress level out and tax your performance to the utmost. So certain scenarios/exercises/techinques still reign supreme when in reality they haven't a friggin purpose -- or worse -- a chance of success in a situation outside of training....

[doitforjonny]

Surprisingly, cost here is not the greatest issue I would be concerned with. Rather, my experience has been overwhelmingly that reinforced vehicles consistently and repeatedly cause the students to believe that a "normal" vehicle won't react the same way as the training vehicle. They simply lose faith in the training. For this reason -- more than any other (including cost) -- I ALWAYS prefer to train with non-reinforced vehicles. This way, there is ZERO doubt in the students' minds that the vehicle he is training in will perfrom just like what he will have in actuality

i can absolutely agree with this. i didnt consider it from that light.


as far as the mil convoys, the guys i was talking to were army pogues who had been fapped out to escort duty while in country, who we were giving a course in basic protection to.

i cant see a lot of grunts with the same lack of common sense, but IF pogues ARE gonna be running convoys THEN, blah blah. that was the perspective i was coming from.