Surveillance Detection & Covert Protection

[Hoepoe]

Hi all

My company is introducing an 'adapted' SD program to the private market. These programs are intense 5 day SD and covert protection programs.

SD is a very useful but very overlooked/forgotten field craft for an executive protection agent.

Agents possessing this skill could be further educated to double as covert protective agents.

A brief definition of SD:
"Surveillance Detection is the fieldcraft and skill to identify a hostile forces collecting intelligence on your principle or facility prior to an attack."

As a SD and covert protection specialist, I am curious to see opinions of the forum,

Clearly i think it is an invaluable skill for any and all EP operatives as well as valuable as dedicated SD teams to compliment the EP details assigned to high risk principals.

In addition to the obvious skills that are studied, an SD qualification also adds something different to any EP agent's resume in a cut throat market.

Thoughts? Insights?

Hoepoe

[Sharky]

While I agree that SD is a skill overlooked/forgotten by many, I don't think that it could be profitable (at least not in the U.S.) as a stand-alone course in the private sector. Most companies will see it as not enough return on investment. Again, I say that from the perspective of dealing with US companies and US facilities. Business in general here still doesn't take the threat of terrorism seriously enough to spend money training people on SD. In Israel, I'm sure that's a different story, as you guys live with the reality every day. Might be a good additional block to a PSD/EP/FP/static security course POI though. Just my $.02.

[SOTB]

Certain govt and mil clients in the US have large out-sourced SD/CS trg programs. Some are VERY in-depth.

Civvie clients are, as Sharky states, not likely to see the tangible benefits and probably not willing to spend LOTS of money on a trg course.

However.

What I did in another life, was to integrate it into red-cell/team-on-team exercises, which enabled all to have a very real and quantifiable/tangible feeling for the abilities of the skills/tradecraft learned.

For the small company who has not a lot of overhead, I think it could still prove marketable, but clients will almost be niche-like....

[mike792]

I agree with Sharky and SOTB. Most corporations overseas will not invest in any type of SD. Now of course if you happen to be the Corporate Security Director/Manager/Coordinator dude, you should be able to do some type of SD training internally to include PEs. I have done that before but with marginal success.

[Hoepoe]

Great point Gents. Thank you. I am aware of all these points and too agree with you all.

Just to clarify, courses are not only in Israel, but wherever the client wants.
I am intentionally appealing to a niche market. (intentionally not for the masses due to the nature of the subject matter)
I am very aware of the outsourced govmnt SD programs :-)
This is not 'pure US SD'. rather US/Israeli SD base and covert protection on top.
My company is not a dedicated training only company, rather a software company (software for protection systems) that offers a complete PI package SD/covert protection training as well to compliment the software.


So, now that we covered the market side (which i thank you for) how about the skills learned, the importance and value of this skillset?

i am not particularly searching for validation on what my company is doing, rather have a discussion on the topic as subject matter for folks that are not aware of what it is.

Thanks again.

Hoepoe

[Silverbullet]

Hoepoe and I have discussed SD and it's need in the market a number of times.

As he has stated and SOTB pointed out, it's a niche market.

My opinions are that it should be a more desired skill when looking to hire for a variety of functions. One of the main problems is that it's hard to see what a guy does or quantify his performance in SD. A guy can dress for success, have worked a few details, have the sun glasses, etc...and a employer will get a warm feeling and hire him. It doesn't really matter if he's a trust fund baby who puts more effort into his weight training than he does doing real jobs, he can get hired. With SD you don't see the guy around. He doesn't always dress like you and the guys that do it are part of a niche culture to start with. Most employers want to be able to see what their employee is doing.

I personally think it is the most underutilized skill in protection. This can be either in a high threat area or not. I think if more effort were put into SD less guys would need to be walking around with principles.:D

[SOTB]

I think if more effort were put into SD less guys would need to be walking around with principles.:DBlasphemy if spoken in RFP response circles....

[Sharky]

Blasphemy if spoken in RFP response circles....



Among others......lol

[JCastro]

Hoepoe, What do you think a course like this would cost and how long do you think a basic course would last? A week or two. I know it is something that I would be interested in simply because of the additional knowledge and skills it would add to the tool kit. I have been running high profile security teams in Iraq for over two years, but I know that as much training and experience as this has brought me, a lot of it simply doesn't apply outside of this region of the world. There is a lot that would apply, but outside of the upper levels of government there are very few people in the world let alone in the US that require this level of protection. And this isn't going to last forever. Nor do I want to be here for even close to forever. I love the security business but it isn't going to be like this forever. I prefer the low key, there but not noticed until it is go time approach. The "game" and goal for me has been hopefully to see the attack by identifying the trigger before it is sprung and not be there when the attack is sprung. So far so good.

I was in Miami about six years ago on my honeymoon and me and my wife were walking in an open air market near the beach. There was this guy walking around in a suit and tie in 85-90 degree heat. He had a full diamond of big muscle bound knuckledraggers walking around him. Every one of them were in suit and ties as well. We could hardly keep from laughing out loud right in front of him because it just looked rediculous. He had made hiimself and even bigger target just because he wanted to look important and have a big protection team. IMHO anyway....

Just as SB said, IMHO if protection specialists (for lack of a better term) spent a little time on the detection of threats they would have to fight less or at least roll as heavy. In this environment, well any environment for that matter, you still have to be prepared for anything and everything but it would still be a better way to run IMO.

[Hoepoe]

JCastro, Sir, thanks for your interest.

To answer some of your questions:
From my experience, a 5 day course is ideal to cover both theory and field exercises, it is however an intense 5 days. Cost varies depending on course make-up and i prefer not to advertise the cost _out_ here.

The courses i am offering are primarily instructed by myself with guest instructors/lecturers from the Israeli Security Agency (Shin Beth, formerly General Security Service in English), IDF SF (former) as well as some perssonel that by chance stopped suicide bombers (all guest speakers are dependent on availability).

Some other interesting points are that the courses when held in Israel take advantage of the diversity we have here to include exercises in suburban, commercial and Eastern (read: Arab) environments encompassing as much as possible what you may encounter during your career.

I have a course this April and will gladly send you an information brochure, even if you can't make it on such short notice, it will serve as an example course layout. Please feel free to PM me your email address if interested.

Our courses are also recognized by the BPS Association (http://www.bps-association.org) and qualify participants for entry as well as approved by the Israeli Ministry of Defense.

Thanking you again for your interest

Hoepoe

[J.Meoff]

Good courses/schools are very expensive to man & equip. The proper infrastructure is well.... large. The decent courses go from a month to many months.... I see little value in 5 days.

[Silverbullet]

An important distinction needs to be made between SD for indications of hostile intent and SD for the mission of completing an act or meeting that you don't want someone other than you knowing took place.

The long crse's are gov't run or contracted. They are much longer for a reason since they involve TTP's that go beyond SD. I don't see Hoepoe advocating his SD training as a crse that will make someone able to operate as a singleton in a hostile intelligence environment. My take away is that this is geared directly towards those that want to improve their ability to recognize surveillance of themselves or their principle in regards to attack planning or the actual attack.

I think SD for use in protection whether it's self awareness or awareness beyond the immediate threat around your principle can be taught in a week. The student won't leave an expert but no crse really does that. The student should lv with an increased capability to conduct SD, though.

[JCastro]

Roger that SB. Thats what I was trying to get across in my last post. Hopefully it came across that way. Just looking for another tool to put in my tool kit.

[B 2/75]

In reading through this I keep thinking of the INTAC course... one week long of which 1.5 days were for SD. Even with five full days, though, you're essentially talking a familiarization course. Folks who have been in the game for a while could use some boning up, perhaps. But it still is limited by time constraints to being a familiarization course, and as such one that may be a difficult sell. I'm with Mr. Meoff on this one.

[Silverbullet]

In reading through this I keep thinking of the INTAC course... one week long of which 1.5 days were for SD. Even with five full days, though, you're essentially talking a familiarization course. Folks who have been in the game for a while could use some boning up, perhaps. But it still is limited by time constraints to being a familiarization course, and as such one that may be a difficult sell. I'm with Mr. Meoff on this one.

Well I've been in the game awhile and have focused on SD as a service in a variety of setting and clients as well as attended what is considered the gold standard "SD" crse. So I'm interested in what would reduce 5 days to just a fam crse...

Since you brought up INTAC which by the title indicates it's an awareness crse,not mastery, I'll use that for comparison. I submit that if someone attended INTAC and took what they learned and applied it they would reach a fairly high level of SD skills in about 3 months. I wouldn't suggest that this is an optimum amount of formal exposure, though. Based on that I'll further submit that 5 days of focused SD training followed by application would reduce the time required to reach a high level of skill by around 60% of the above mentioned 3 months.

Everyone agrees that SD is a hard sell to start with. The problem is when it appears we are comparing apples vs oranges. SD for self awareness/hostile intent detection vs intelligence asset trying to achieve a specified goal without being observed.

For everything other than the latter, it pretty much comes down to procedures and being exposed to different types of surveillance. Stating it can't be taught in x amount of time is not accurate since I can teach someone the procedures in bit over an hour. The bulk of the course work is spent exposing the student to different types of surveillance and subjecting him to critique which helps to validate his/her chosen method of conducting SD and comparative analysis of time/place events, etc... It's the daily and real world use that allows someone to master it vice the crse length.

I'm not for 1, 5 or x amount of days but my experience doesn't lead me to believe that the skill can't be taught in relatively short crses if the focus is on protective type SD.

[Hoepoe]

Very valid points once again, to all.

No, 5 days is not long enough to create a 'master'. It is long enough however to provide the student with the tools to use on their next protective assignment, to open their minds and eyes to another "dimension" of actions, correlations and reactions.

Several months course too is not long enough.

The real learning starts in the field, after the course. Just like doctors, soldiers, executive protection agents; the course is the infrastructure, the foundation of what still needs to be learned in the field day 1 and on after graduation.

This course is also not pure SD, it is mostly SD, yes, but also combined with providing an invisible reactionary protective force around the client or facility. The reactionary skills (hard skills) are not taught in this course, but the "invisible" is. This is without a doubt the most challenging part of this skillset.

Thank you all once again for your input, comments and participation in this discussion.

Hoepoe

[J.Meoff]

In review, of silver's well thought post, I may have to reconsider. I've worn a few hats at work, and so have different expectations of someone's SD/CS needs well beyond "hostile intent". This has perhaps made me dismissive of a 5 day fam. I would now agree that 5 day fam + operational time under someone well versed could get one up to a decent level for protective services.

A well run course would be a wee expensive logistically, perhaps too much for a for profit endeavor.

[EasyRunGent's]

Focus group ability, background and logistic support capability should be the standard. SD/CS operations are very logistically intensive. A XX day course just on SD operations is mildly interesting without a course focusing on logistic support of SD/CS operations, unless your target audence is just building a resume.

[SOTB]

I rarely suggest to people doing protective work that they even consider CS. If one does not have the in-country assets necessary for conducting CS, its a literal waste of time and effort -- hell, it might even be a fantastic way to get hurt/dead.

Instead, and again -- with the focus of this thread apparently being upon protective services or IPM, a strong SD plan -- even one which is not subtle in its approach is relatively simple and easy enough to teach and implement. And it can be run by practically anyone, in any location, with little time on the ground the program will be run beforehand....

[Silverbullet]

I see SD and CS as different things.

Conducting SD for self or someone you are with should be done at all times. It can be as simple as making notes of people/vehicles that meet certain parameters of repetition or activity. These notes are then shared with team members in an effort to build a picture to see if there are any indicators.

If you are going to employ CS you will need a much larger amount of support and dedicated team members. That is their primary mission.

[EasyRunGent's]

I rarely suggest to people doing protective work that they even consider CS. If one does not have the in-country assets necessary for conducting CS, its a literal waste of time and effort -- hell, it might even be a fantastic way to get hurt/dead.

Instead, and again -- with the focus of this thread apparently being upon protective services or IPM, a strong SD plan -- even one which is not subtle in its approach is relatively simple and easy enough to teach and implement. And it can be run by practically anyone, in any location, with little time on the ground the program will be run beforehand....
Yoo are 100% correct, especially if your running LN teams as pilot cars, trailers or simply fixed point / route activity cars. The LN thing is the issue though.

[Stanley_White]

Blasphemy if spoken in RFP response circles....

HAHAHA!

Hollywood has trained our society to think that Security = Personnel, Guns, and Armor.

Personnel, Guns, and Armor focus on defeating the attack at the time it occurrs. I don't know about you but I don't want to discover that I have been targeted during the attack; I'd like to know sometime prior. :D

SD focuses on preventing the attack.

No skill sets stand alone.

Sadly, reactive skills training such as firearms and driving is viewed as more fun and sexy then SD which is why everyone focuses on it.

Also reactive skills training have easily quantifiable results: "You drove too fast or too slow / take up the slack on the trigger / those shot groups are good" etc.

[Hoepoe]

As some have mentioned SD focuses on preventing attacks by identifying hostiles collecting intelligence required before an attack.

CS however deals with preventing this collection of information through other means and methodologies.

They are similar in name only, but not the same thing at all.

Hoepoe

[SOTB]

As some have mentioned SD focuses on preventing attacks by identifying hostiles collecting intelligence required before an attack.

CS however deals with preventing this collection of information through other means and methodologies.

They are similar in name only, but not the same thing at all....Nope, not at all. Neither has to be in conjunction with preventing attacks. IE, you can use both to ID and take measures against reporters or a private dick trying to get video of your secretary with her legs over your shoulders -- neither of which are "attacks" -- well, by terrorists anyway.

BOTH efforts can be utilized to prevent the obtaining of info. BOTH can be utilized to simply warn you of what is going on. Your skill, mission, resources, and commitment to results is what will define the extent to which you can utilize those efforts....

[Hoepoe]

Nope, not at all. Neither has to be in conjunction with preventing attacks. IE, you can use both to ID and take measures against reporters or a private dick trying to get video of your secretary with her legs over your shoulders -- neither of which are "attacks" -- well, by terrorists anyway.

BOTH efforts can be utilized to prevent the obtaining of info. BOTH can be utilized to simply warn you of what is going on. Your skill, mission, resources, and commitment to results is what will define the extent to which you can utilize those efforts....

They are still not the same skills.

CS has a stronger focus on controlling the environment (as much as possible) to lessen the chances of successful hostile surveillance whereas SD aims to identify the hostile surveillance, not prevent it.

I whole heartidly agree with your last sentence.

And how'd you know about my secretary anyway ??


Hoepoe

[SOTB]

CS has a stronger focus on controlling the environment (as much as possible) to lessen the chances of successful hostile surveillance whereas SD aims to identify the hostile surveillance, not prevent it....We are not talking about the same thing, then....

[Hoepoe]

We are not talking about the same thing, then....

That very well may be, i am not very versed in CS....

Hoepoe

[Silverbullet]

Sadly, reactive skills training such as firearms and driving is viewed as more fun and sexy then SD which is why everyone focuses on it.

Also reactive skills training have easily quantifiable results: "You drove too fast or too slow / take up the slack on the trigger / those shot groups are good" etc.

Stanley,

Very good point.

I also agree with SOTB that SD can be used to help look out for anything, reporters, etc...depending on the environment you work in. Hostile intent can cover more than just violent actions.

[Hoepoe]

Stanley,

Very good point.

I also agree with SOTB that SD can be used to help look out for anything, reporters, etc...depending on the environment you work in. Hostile intent can cover more than just violent actions.

Agreed SB, that's why i like to use the term "hostile actions".

Hoepoe

[doitforjonny]

looking for clarification on terms...

given the clients sphere of influence (not sure of the appropriate nomenclature, but the space occupied not just physically but socially and influentially, politically etc..), the space in which he operates,

how would you all define SD vice CS

what would you think characterizing the awareness of any action taken by any party in that sphere and its relationship with the client, as SD

and any action on your part to control any action in that sphere as CS

I am just curious where the line is drawn? it seems to me that while they are separate disciplines there is quite a lot of overlap...ie route selection; planning routes to allow for detection seems like an action but is passive in nature.

would a better characterization be actions that can be done by one team as SD and those done by two plus in a coordinated effort as CS?


Hoepoe-

i think if you could find a way to get the word out you could find a niche among high threat contractors looking to further education on the softer skills. I would bet the market in ICs could bear 1-2 classes a year. the problem would be geography, and getting the interested individual parties together in an economical fashion, given the international nature of the job.

[SOTB]

....would a better characterization be actions that can be done by one team as SD and those done by two plus in a coordinated effort as CS?Not in MY opinion....

[Silverbullet]

I've always used the terminology in this manner, CS teams have only one function while SD can be performed as a by product or in conjunction with other duties.

[EasyRunGent's]

Each member of a detail should be in SD mode from the moment they are assigned to a detail to the time they are back home drinking beers. SD is as much an elementary function of protection as 360 degree security. I don’t see it as a special skill set. Can it be improved? Yes. CS is an expertise that can support protection operation pre, during and post. But operationally it moves independently.

[Stanley_White]

I've always used the terminology in this manner, CS teams have only one function while SD can be performed as a by product or in conjunction with other duties.

Concur.

[LRS Guy]

Hoepoe,

Clean out your PM box.

[Blackjack78]

The terms may be different in my a/o. While it seems that this thread is leaning towards S/D,C/S in a principals movement, do you men define C/S as countermeasures? I'm just trying to get on the same page. In my a/o we often refer to C/S as this. In a simple scenario,U/C goes to a corner and makes a buy, as he/she leaves the area they are ghosted(followed) by another LEO/s for safety and to see if the u/c has a tail. We call this C/S. I can see how this could also be called S/D. In your terms, is a lookout conducting C/S or S/D? Like I said, I'm just trying to get on the same page.

[Stanley_White]

The terms may be different in my a/o. While it seems that this thread is leaning towards S/D,C/S in a principals movement, do you men define C/S as countermeasures? I'm just trying to get on the same page. In my a/o we often refer to C/S as this. In a simple scenario,U/C goes to a corner and makes a buy, as he/she leaves the area they are ghosted(followed) by another LEO/s for safety and to see if the u/c has a tail. We call this C/S. I can see how this could also be called S/D. In your terms, is a lookout conducting C/S or S/D? Like I said, I'm just trying to get on the same page.

I would refer to your techniques more as Overwatch.

[Kalanis]

Right. S/D in that senario would be what your seller would use to get to the corner.

[Blackjack78]

I would refer to your techniques more as Overwatch.

Fair enough. LEO v Military lol.

[Blackjack78]

Right. S/D in that senario would be what your seller would use to get to the corner.

Thank you, have a better understanding of terms from the Military perspective.