FX Sim School

[ccorgr175]

All,

I'm scheduled to attend the FX Simunition Instructor's Course very shortly.

If anyone has attended this course recently, your feedback on it would be appreciated. Yes, I'm already planning on bringing my GP (groin protector) ;).

I'm particularly interested in how much this has contributed to your respective agencies current training programs.

Cheers.

2%

[Finger]

If you set up the scenarios properly, your officers will get a lot out of it. It has to be planned and controlled. The big reason for the school is the stupid lethal and serious accidents that occur every year from no control in FX training. I attended my last FX Instructor Cert in Lubbock last year. Have fun.

[Cuda]

I went to the last hard class.......

1. Don't deliberately shoot people in the face. Or engage closer then two meters.
2. Do not shoot people on the ground.
3. Treat sims as like you would live ammo
4. Wear eye protection. Cover all exposed skin.
5. Shooters will not fire at any portion of the body that becomes inadvertently unprotected due to any protective clothing and equipment missing or not properly placed.
6. If your goggles fog up and you cant see. Take a knee. Instructor will come to assist you.
7. Cease Fire means all training immediately stops.

One I added. Use Sims as it was intended. To inflict moderate pain in order to add realism to training. If your going to wear ten layers of clothing then save the ammo and yell bang your dead.

This should about cover it. I know about LEO's needing to be qualified on paper but this is just a little to sheepish for me, Sims School?

"One Time in Sims School"

[hardknocks]

$$$$ maker for those putting it on. Some courses include use of force continuum, script writing, liability issues concerning failure to train.

You covered everything else concerning the use of marking rounds. Pain is part of the reinforcement for bad tactics.

[Silverbullet]

I first started using sims in 97. We experimented with many different things in regards to safety. Most of that is common sense. I can only assume that LEO's attend a crse on it due to liability issues.

My .02 to anyone involved in implementing sims is to take care that it doesn't completely replace live fire full mission profiles. The over reliance on sims can give those involved in the tactical evolution a false sense of security. The less experienced trainee may start to view it as a game vice a training complement. Of crse some desk jockey will like it more since the chance of someone being killed is way down but the mind set and intangibles a guy gets from live fire full mission profiles is lost.

There are numerous civilian schools popping up offering force on force with sims who tout realism who actually reinforce some piss poor tactics. Guys hiding behind pieces of wood, car doors, plaster walls, etc...all of which would allow a real rd to hit the person using the weak cover in a actual gunfight or assault.

[PanaVet]

An additional 2cents worth. When using sim w/ NODS, continue to use eye pro. A kid in my unit in 1997 lost an eye because he thought his PVS7s were enough eyepro.

[ccorgr175]

All,

Correct assumption on the liability issue. We've been using this stuff for years. We shoot the piss out of each other on SWAT, and use it consistently to teach the academy & in-service blocks.

Then one day some cherry in the academy whines about it to the staff, and Finger's point on all the negligent TR accidents occurring these days only compounds the matter. The silver lining...I get to go to a free school.

Received with smiles on the pain meter issue. The better it burns, the longer they remember.

Silverbullet - ditto. Sheet rock, car doors, plywood, etc...they are not our friends, and live fire will always be our steak dinner.

PanaVet - Thank you for the heads up on the NOD's issue. Sorry to hear about your brother eye.

All good info. Thank you all.

Now - I'm going to go train & eat for free.:D


2%

[Sharky]

Use Sims as it was intended. To inflict moderate pain in order to add realism to training. If your going to wear ten layers of clothing then save the ammo and yell bang your dead.




Dead on. I even disagree with doing it with all skin covered. It should be done in a T-shirt unless you are role-playing as a bad guy and getting shot up in every scenario. It's supposed to hurt. If you're afraid of getting hit with a SIM round I don't want you on my team. Period.

[KS11]

Dead on. I even disagree with doing it with all skin covered. It should be done in a T-shirt unless you are role-playing as a bad guy and getting shot up in every scenario. It's supposed to hurt. If you're afraid of getting hit with a SIM round I don't want you on my team. Period.

+1

Sims hurt just badly enough to keep you from doing a bunch of Rambo bullshit.

[TXSWAT]

+2. Amazing how many vests come out of mothballs when it's time for sims.

I can still recite the sims safety briefing in my sleep. My wife says that i do anyways.

[psycho]

Totally agree with Silverbullet. This is a great training tool if used properly. Key words training tool. The training scenarios must be real world. For us leo types this is the closest thing to the real deal. I have done several scenarios.. some good and some shit.

You fight like you train. Good scenarios can help your team to expose potential tactical problems as well as show sound tactical decisions.

[MOGSOT]

We use sims a lot in are training. I like to watch others train so that I know who I want to make calls with and who I don't. Its amazing how disgraceful some guys are when it comes to their tactics. I agree with silverbullet 100%.

[ContinentalOp]

Dead on. I even disagree with doing it with all skin covered. It should be done in a T-shirt unless you are role-playing as a bad guy and getting shot up in every scenario. It's supposed to hurt. If you're afraid of getting hit with a SIM round I don't want you on my team. Period.

+1. Nipple shots are what it's all about. :)

[whlkiller]

This post came along at the right time, I just received a memo from my Chief to work up a bid to outfit a training component for simmunitions. Having used it on SWAT I am familiar with it, have used and trained with it, but some good info here none the less....may have to hit him up to go to school anyway...no sense getting sued for something silly:)

[DCH]

..my adrenalin would pump so high during sims training that I'd hardly notice the pain after the initial impact. Yeah, I'd get THAT pumped for training.

sims tend to jam up slides and bolts too don't they?- at least you'll get some malfunction drills out of 'em..

[ccorgr175]

All,

Just got back from the aforementioned course (FX - Simunition Instructor). Again, we've been using it for about ten years, but questions regarding liability came up...so six of us got sent.

Just to re-cap, the issues were two fold:

1. The rising body count of LEO Ninja's whacking each other in training. No one is immune folks. This ranges from the local Deputy, to the FBI HRT member that was given a headshot just a few months back (by a Team mate) down at AP Hill (May God be with them both).

2. Little cherries in the academy whining about getting shot at with Sim rounds (May they never hit the street with a badge).

Overall, a good course. I suggest anyone planning to attend research the instructor/s and company (there is more than one Sim company) if at all possible. We went with FX due to the fact that they have been around for awhile, and that's what we've been using.

Mike Chin was our lead instructor. His background is LE. A 25 year veteran with Lakeland PD in Florida. He spent 14 years with his SWAT Team there, and still participates with his agency in an instructor capacity. He relayed good info on the product, as well as practical applications. He seemed to have his act together. Nice guy. I have his contact info if anyone is looking to go, or has questions.

We were skeptical on our arrival due to the fact that we have already been using the product for awhile; however, we did walk away with some good info. Most on safety, some on scenario application.

I'll close with this emphasis: THIS IS NOT A SCHOOL ON TACTICS. They did not cover this topic, nor do they want it brought to the table. In that type of environment, I completely agree. We had everyone from the Coast Guard TACLET's, to the USSS in the class. If tactics had been introduced, the pissing matches would have begun, and the course objectives would have ended.

Hope this helps, and thanks again to the first shooters who responded with the pre-course info.



2%

[ilots]

..sims tend to jam up slides and bolts too don't they?- at least you'll get some malfunction drills out of 'em..
The problem with that, especially on long guns, is that you tend to just stack rounds in the barrel...then your instructor is stuck hammering 13 rounds out of an MP5 barrel.


ccorgr175 - thanks for providing feedback.

[ccorgr175]

...Anytime.

The build up issue came up in class. A bore snake is a MUST for Sim training. Running it through the weapon in question in between scenario's should eliminate most of these problems...it just takes a second.

On the same note, the two most prominent reasons for malfunctions during Sims training were addressed. They are as follows, in this order:

1. Mishandling of the projectile during loading. This simply means that you need to be somewhat careful when pushing rounds into the magazine. The bullet can separate from the sabot (plastic piece) very easily. If it does, just simply wiggle it back in place.

2. Yes, you guessed it...a dirty weapon. Again, use the bore snake in between scenario's to help with this.

Happy shooting.:D


2%

[Bodiebot]

I am reading this post thinking of the scene from Super Troopers where they have Rabbit in a jock with a steel cup at the range.

[Cuda]

The problem with that, especially on long guns, is that you tend to just stack rounds in the barrel...then your instructor is stuck hammering 13 rounds out of an MP5 barrel.


ccorgr175 - thanks for providing feedback.

Amazing how important weapons maintenance is when sims are issued out.

+1. Nipple shots are what it's all about.

Or the tip of your finger on a cold day...OUCH!

[SOTB]

Amazing how many vests come out of mothballs when it's time for sims....I had taken my guys to Gunsite in '95 or '96 for a course and ran into the staff in the main house going through what looked like motocross protective wear -- nope, it was for use during paintball and sims training.

Ridiculous....

[ccorgr175]

The only time I would condone the overt protective gear is for the role player who would be getting ate up scenario after scenario.

Especially if you want the guy to come back!!:D

Otherwise...let it burn.


2%

[frank B]

From my experience groin protection is a good thing in FoF training regardless if you use sims or paintball.
All,

I'm scheduled to attend the FX Simunition Instructor's Course very shortly.

If anyone has attended this course recently, your feedback on it would be appreciated. Yes, I'm already planning on bringing my GP (groin protector) ;).

I'm particularly interested in how much this has contributed to your respective agencies current training programs.

Cheers.

2%