Whose training in what?

[Snake]

What kinda stuff is getting taught by the different Services to their personnel?

In the 25th, we train in Combatives, right outta FM 21-150. Works quite well for us, but has to be drilled *to death*. A couple of hrs/week will not do the job.

Alright, pony up and spill it:
1) Marines, whats this LINE stuff? Any good?

2) Air Force, what the hell are you learning?

3) Navy, to my knowledge (limited) doesnt teach anything to the sailors, Just SEAL's and Canoe U grads.

4)What about the rest of the Army? SF, Rangers? 1st ID?

Spill it!

Snake II
25th ID(L)

[JOE-BOO]

Snake...I have seen and trained the line stuff and it is the same stuff as 21-150...in fact in one of those smart books I have of theirs they even reference that FM...It mught be theirs...but it is the same stuff

[Snake]

LT.,
yeah, I took a flick through the LINE manual a couple years back. Looked like Combatives, but with a little more complexity to it (And better drawing). In my humble (heh) experience, ya cant go wrong with FM 21-150. Its easy to learn, non-confusing, and extremely effective. The only problem is, the recruits spend *much* more time in COO classes, than in the Pit. If they ever decide to comission me, that would be on my units training plan. Right behind weapons skills and patrolling. My Platoon Leader has an obsession with combatives. We train in cycles of 4 weeks.
Week One: 2 hrs/day (5 days)
Week Two-Four: 2 hrs/week
Total Hours: 16.

That allows us to build and maintain a good level of proficiency. That incident last month in Germany, where 3 skinheads kicked the shit outta 5 Soldiers..... It aint gonna happen to Light-Fighters! No way.

Snake II
25th ID(L)

[Snake]

BTW,
what do they teach you evil GoldBars out at IOBC, in the way of H2H?

Snake II
25th ID(L)

[WS-G]

Can't speak for what the LRSU's are doing today, however in my company back in '83-'84, the [limited] H2H training we did was a mix of Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu and TKD.

I agree that FM 21-150 is a good system if drilled hard and regularly.

[Snake]

Tell you guys a little story:

One of my Batt. SNCO's was in Bosnia during the 94-95 "unpleasantness". While there, some reporters told the UN guys he was attached to that a Croat unit (this was during the Croat retaking of the Krajina) was encamped nearby. So they amble on over to say hi. These guys we Skinheads from Germany and some HOS commandos. Apparently, the Skins had been funneled over the Border via the "Nazi Underground" (my words) to fight the "Serbo-Communists". Anyway, they were getting all their combat doctrine out of a bunch of US Army FM's that they had bought from Soldiers at Heidelburg. These guys had T-55's too! Weird war....

Snake II
25th ID(L)

[JOE-BOO]

I agree that FM 21-150 stuff is good if trained regularly...the problem is that we are not taught the aggressive mind set execute under pressure...that is not to say that some won't but with training the reaction process, that .5 second hssitation caused by confussion could lead to broken bones, loss of balance, or mental chaos, which ultimately leads to defeat. Moves are not as important as concepts after the familiarization process is over...actually by not drilling too much and allowing free fighting to occur with one person as the aggressor (bad guy) and the other person as the fighter (good guy), fighting at lower speed and connection allows the THOUGHT process to become second nature...which then frees up you though process from the chaos of the situation....It is kind of like battle drills...just knowing the battle drill s some what effective, but knowing why you execute a right face towards the enemy and attack when in a close ambush make more sense when someone explains why. Because if you don't attack back immediately you are defensive and then dead...you must make them defensive. With that explained making decisions while being fired at are less complicate...you know you are attacking back...no question...you just need to identify a key target and execute your most devestating causulty producing weapon/force as quickly as possible to turn the tide so that the desisions made on both sides of the killing feild are your doing....same in H2H

[Snake]

LT.,
Good point! Free-style training is needed too! What we do is make sure everyone is up to speed (this excludes the newbies for a while) and the conduct some free-fighting in the Pit. We occasionally have a couple of injuries, but nothing more than broken noses and split knuckles. The trick is to get everyone working offa the same sheet of music. So the rule is: use the stuff your taught in training, not XXXXX-do. We use the ubiquitous wooden tanto for knife-work.
And you brought up an excellent point, it isnt so much the *techniques*, as the *mentality* being taught. Most people would be surprised at the level of restrain the new kids show. They've just got outta High School, where you fight, but fighting in HS is bound by rules (ie. Dont kill your clasmates). So, getting them to -instantly- go for someones eyes is hard, at first.

BTW: What do they teach at OIBC, WRT hand-to-hand?

Snake II
25th ID(L)

[JOE-BOO]

Well i can only speak of my cycle, since this is a very disorganized place....It went something like this: Listen up LTs....(former RI)...FM 21-150 blah blah blah....do this and this and this...alright pair up and execute....know wrestle...."
very sad....lucklily I took it upon myself to have the good people at SCARS educate me at their compound in Pheonix last January when I was a cadet...I do not trust the Army to teach me the necessities, especially not being in a SO unit...like I said in another post...I trust me and my guys (pending), not the organization to get the job done...perhaps this is a bad attitude, but it has proven very effective since I got involved 3 1/2 years ago. I like your take on its importance...we need to have more outlets for physical prowess since obstical courses are few and far between...looks like running in a straight line along with PUs and SUs are the standard for now.

"Damn it LT!!! Quit your bitchin' and do what your told...quit trying to make training (planning) difficult...everyone already knows how to run so we will do that!!!"

[x:C-1/75 Ranger]

11ZULU,
How was SCARS? Expensive? Is the instructor as bad as he says he is? When I was in High School, me and a couple of my buddies who were into martial arts bought his Hostile Control System videotape. I wasn't really impressed with his theories on "If you do this, he will do this, then you can do this." Although his system of moves and combos did seem easy to teach a group, ie. combatives training. RLTW!

[Mac679]

Peterson does present some decent theories but they ain't foolproof like he claims. Keep in mind, with reference to your "easy to teach to a group", SCARS isn't taught at BUD/S anymore. One of the reasons is it takes too long to learn.
Snake, why have everyone limit themselves to what's just from FM21-150? I can understand wanting to give everyone a common starting point, but it seems a little odd to me that people who've trained in the martial arts would be not allowed to use it.
Mac

[Snake]

Alright, good points and questions in last few posts.

Mac, Its not so much *limiting* ourselves, as getting everyone working on the same sheet of paper for -safety- considerations. When your going pretty much full speed, you dont want someone to pull out some wild-ass tai-chi move and walk into a throat strike!
For example, in a Taekwondo session, using jujitsu is frowned upon. Now, everyone knows that in combat, anything goes. However, practice *must* be a controlled environment.
Full-speed combatives training is the equivalent of a live-fire exercise, get me?

As for limiting ourselves to Fm 21-150....
It works! Thats why. Better than Martial Arts, as most of them are now just sports and performance art. Most Black belts do *not* get the "and now thrust the knife into the -kidney-" training. Plus, the sporting aspects and rigid techniques are inadvisable for the field. In the Bundu, a grunt just is *not* gonna do a reverse punch in full kit.
The problem is, most Soldiers dont get even the -minimum- of Combatives training. If your arent getting at least 12 hrs a month, your not getting any benefits. You have to drill it until its a *spinal reflex*. In combat, you stop to consider....your dead. period.
In the 82nd, we did next to zero Combatives training. In the 25th, its a massive Divisional Institution. Comes from different operational philosophy's. 25th operates in a closed environment (Jungle), where most engagements are at close-quarters. And silence is a must in many of our operations.
The 7th ID(L) back in the late 80's took Combatives to a high art (before the deactivation), thats why they got the "ninja" nickname. The Army-wide breakdown in combatives training comes from the theory that the US Army will never have to close with the enemy without overwhelming firepower. Like in DS, bomb the enemy, then close in and take his surrender. Ergo, no hand-to-hand fighting.
My advice? Go surf on over to the Digital Library ( 155.217.58.58/atdls.htm ) and download a copy. It take a while to print up, but its worth it.
Pity the Marines wont put their manuals on-line, so we could compare....

Snake II
25th ID(L)

[LRSC Grunt]

Snake,
I agree with you 100%. Just to let you know you can find Marine Corps Manuals at: http://www.doctrine.quantico.usmc.mil/

[Snake]

Grunt,
The Jarheads have restricted access to their manuals......
I think their just scared......
heheheh

Snake II
25th ID(L)

[Mike]

I had no problem pulling up the doctrines and other documents. No password needs.

[JOE-BOO]

I think SCARS (Peterson) "theories" about "Autokinmatics" are dead o...this makes up the root of the system....when you know you need to take an encounter to a certain level (injure, mame, or kill) you need to understand what exactly that punch to the throat or kick to the sphincter did and how the other guy will react so you can manipulate the situation...FM 21-150 teaches moves but doen a poor job of explaining the outcome...little things are quite effective if you can align them with other moves....palm to the nuts-chop to throat-palm to the nuts...basically down-up-down goes his body and you know it for sure, plus getting hit in the nuts twice in rapid succession makes will make a guy puke involuntarily...the shot to the throat when he bends over the first time will make him gag...he will suck vomit into his lungs and die...little things like that...

the reason it is fool roof is because the enemy has to react to the strike...it s not the damage tht you are focusing on but his reaction which allows you to know his moves before he recognzes them...thus maintainng positive control of the situation....

What if he makes contact first...well be quick to recover/become aggressive/react before he strikes again...that is in your hands...no one can teach that, but you can learn to not become scared, thus speeding up the process dramatically

[Snake]

Mike,
Try downloading the .Pdf docs for the FMF manuals, the server wont let you d-load the Close Combat manual......

Another point in favor of Combatives training is, self-confidence. The ability to walk around and not worry about any situation that might come up....

Oh, LT., In my opinion FM 21-150 does do a pretty good job of explaining the outcome of strikes. The onus is on the trainers/trainees to practice a series of maneuvers in succession. One strike doesnt usually save the day.

Snake II
25th ID(L)

[pn]

WRT H2H training in the Navy:

Didn't you guys see "An Officer and a Gentleman"? It took them 13 weeks(OCS) to turn a college boy into a trained expert who could kick the crap out of the class Gunny.

[Snake]

PLEASE!!!
Any Light-Fighter would eat a DI for breakfast, then go out for a -real- meal. Bad research too, the DI was teaching them frigging karate??? Nothing against the Empty Hand, but its too high-maintenance. Takes too long to become effective, and isnt optimized for modern combat.

Snake II
25th ID(L)

[logan]

Snake:

Is the 25th still stationed at Schofield Barracks?

[Snake]

Yup, except for the poor bastards in 1st Brigade. Their consigned to purgatory at Ft. Lewis. HAHAHAHAHAH! suckers.....

Snake II
25th ID(L)

[LRSC Grunt]

I can see why the light fighters include a major emphisis on combatives in their training. They have all four of the opposing services in close proclamation of each other not to mention the 'locals'(BTW the average ht/wt of a Somoan is 6'0" 200 Lbs!!!) fucking with them too. I only wish they did it army wide. They need to make it just as esential as roadmarches, PT, weapons qual. ect...

[Snake]

Grunt,
on the money re:proximity of other services on Oahu. Some guys from 3rd Brigade had a close encounter with Jarheads from K-Bay in the Abyss down in Waikiki a few weeks ago. Not much furniture left. The Jarheads got busted, but our people E&E'ed outta the vicinity. 25th: 1, 3rd Marines: 0.
Hehehe

Snake
25th ID(L)

[LRSC Grunt]

Wolfhounds Hooaah!!!

[x:C-1/75 Ranger]

Anyone at Bragg/Pope know anything about some martial arts training at the Pope gym called Innovated Fighting ...someting or another? I would have though that Fayetteville being such a Joe town, they would have more martial arts schools or at least some boxing gyms. There wasn't much there when I was stationed there.

[Razor]

Ah yes, self-confidence, one hair's width away from over-confidence, a true killer in tough situations. I don't have all the info on them, but some of the older SF guys here may be able to talk about the team(s) that put real emphasis on H2H training (daily training sessions well over an hour) a while back. Short version is they got their asses handed to them because they thought they were so bad, being as good at H2H as they were. They completely forgot that discretion is the better part of valor, and that the best combo is a quick shock strike followed by running for your life.

[Snake]

Razor,
Come on.. you know the Light-Fighter motto. "We Hide, With Pride".


Snake
25th ID(L)