View Full Version : civ vs mil freefall
Why does the military have to take all the fun out of freefall?
Beats a static line brother. Count your blessings! :D
Oh......and to answer your question, it's all Billy's fault! Welcome to SOCNET!
I'm all for having fun, but too many guys/orgs skydive vice MFF.
MY answer -- and by-no-means the best one -- was to have all odd-numbered jumps of the day be CE. Unless doing an O2 jump, in which all jumps were CE. That way, I made sure my guys were getting more CE than Hollywood jumps -- my little contribution to dissolving the "Jump and Swim Club" I found myself in at first....
Look at it this way.. you are getting paid to jump, vs. having to pay. Oh yeah that yellow jump suit kicks ass.
A better question is why does the ARMY take all the fun out of MFF.
It's mo fun in the Navy.
It's all in your perspective grasshopper. CE only really "sucked" after jumping Hollywood. Once Greg P became our Team SGT...we almost forgot what it was like NOT to have a ruck.
We MADE it fun...farthest from base man's pack tray buys the beer, nipple piercing on the DZ for the cherry blasts over 25K ft...ahhhh the memories :D
Every jump on a square was better than a round though...every....last.....one.
PA
stearmann4
11 May 2007, 10:34
A better question is why does the ARMY take all the fun out of MFF.
Frog beat me to it, the most suck I ever encountered in the Navy was a water jump. Otherwise, it was lining up as many freefall rigs as you could carry, getting jocked up on the C-130 as it climbed out.
The Army sets the standard on making good deals suck.
LRS Guy
11 May 2007, 10:41
I'm not a MFF guy, but in the words of the late, great Tom Carter after an evening of swapping stories and drinking Haitian Rum he said,"hell people forget the reason for jumping is to get on the ground faster, so you can start killing ragheads!"
I thought it was a great quote!
NightLandNav
11 May 2007, 14:31
MFF not fun? :confused: :D
rgrjoe175
11 May 2007, 14:43
I really could not imagine when any CE jump would be fun. More along the lines of get me to where we need to be and on the ground as fast as possible so I can get this shit off of me.
JP
NightLandNav
11 May 2007, 15:36
Like anything that sucks, if I can't "make it fun" in my own mind, it makes for a long f*ckn day...and some days are long enough as it is (especially when run consecutively). :)
Billy L-bach
14 May 2007, 15:22
they cant take away the fun if you dont let them brother.......
...and if all else fails: leave work early (I do it all the time!) - Raeford is only 15 minutes away!
The91Bravo
14 May 2007, 15:38
LRS GUY,
Sounds like a great sig line to me...
The91Bravo
14 May 2007, 15:38
as for the yellow jumpsuits,
my brother told me it was like dumping a bag of cheese puffs our of your car window when all the students exited the aircraft... I can picture it in my mind
magician
15 May 2007, 01:01
Every jump on a square was better than a round though...every....last.....one.
Word.
;)
Every jump on a square was better than a round though...every....last.....one....I was told that our class was the last one to jump rounds, before transitioning over to squares. We jumped 4 rounds (Para Commanders?), and then finished the course jumping squares.
The opening shock alone will convince you that squares are cooler. Being able to actually pick the spot you want to land on is useful too....
I do leave work early and go out to Raeford. I think my biggest point is that the military stesses no contact during freefall (even though many of us break this rule), this takes away from freefall skill learning and in a way entertainment. Of course the equipment jumps suck......doesnt matter what kind of jump you do.
I feel for those who had to jump the PARA COMMANDERS.......it was before my time.
I jumped Para Commanders for 3 years & then bought a square. Back then you could jump your own rig off a mil bird.
Back then you could jump your own rig off a mil bird.I remember that....
MFF: March '79. Jumped MC-1s. They had slip risers: under canopy you pulled out a pair of 'forks' so each riser could slide through the capewell assembly. Went to the course with 500 jumps. Four of us were skydivers and we jumped separately from the rest of the class.
As to taking the 'fun' out of freefall: If you saw what the MFF instructors had to work with for students and equipment; you'd take the 'fun' out too and kiss the ground every time you landed without a student fatality.
Interesting times...
Addendum: Did the MFF JM course in Sep 84. Still freaking scary stuff.
NightLandNav
16 May 2007, 05:37
NG, AR, AD units do occasionally manifest at my regular DZ (not often, but enough so that...) I'm not a complete alien when I suite up for my own "CE" jump, (rubber duck, ruck, et.al.) in my own gear. Why? Do you do really have to ask?
Tracking dives for accuracy, solo of course... and only every now and again (5-6x a year)...but it's a skill I want to maintain. Will I ever have to use it again? Who the fuck cares...it's important to me.
4 way-6 way-freestyle-swoop competition, blah, blah...it's those 5-6 CE jumps that are my most earnest...mean the most to me. Not living in the past, but definitely living. Besides, I'm a better canopy pilot now than I ever was for Uncle Sam...sorry Sam...but I'm here if you need me.
Fun?...whatever....
Important skill set for me to maintain for whothefuckknowsexceptforme?...yes.
Mffi422
16 May 2007, 15:27
Agree with my old buddy Billy....Make everthing fun!!!
Mffi422
16 May 2007, 15:30
P.S. Billy, i'll be out that way 28 May - 15 Jun. Testing a new O2 system, parachute, JMPI procedures, helmets, blah, blah, blah...lol I'll try to look you up.
I jumped Para Commanders for 3 years & then bought a square. Back then you could jump your own rig off a mil bird.
You could jump your own, under the guise of "proficiency". That was how the GB SPC was founded, and funded as an aside to the MWR program. I am sure that there are MANY on here who can tell those stories.
We used to jump at Dawson with our own gear out of Hueys about every weekend.
I still have an old short-lined PC in my garage. It was nicknamed "the widowmaker". Talk about opening shock! Either that, or it snivelled.
I have been meaning to cut the suspension lines and give it to tmy son's school, but haven't been able to bring myself to cut a good canopy.
Maybe I'll give them that 28' reserve.....
MD
Billy L-bach
17 May 2007, 21:35
Its only my opinion (and this may take a while) BUT:
"No contact" relative work is actually (in my opinion) one of the BEST ways to improve individual freefall skills! It isnt always the most fun - but it IS effective and here's why............
Its easy to just dock and then hold on to the formation. Its even easier to get a death grip on two or three other jumpers and then just HOLD ON until it flattens out after exit but neither of these two methods really improve a jumpers flying skills. A lot of inexperienced jumpers will fly like the world is about to end and then just "quit flying" once they dock! Just look at a few photos of any big-way as it builds:
-you will see a lot of fledgling skydivers with good positive legs and a good solid arch in one shot
-once they dock, the next photo will show them with a flat arch and their feet on their ass (like I said - they "quit flying once they took grips)
Anything these guys do after this point doesn't really count towards improvment of air skills because once they have docked, to a certain degree, the jump is now over. (I used to hear this refered to as a "Spec-Ops round") Everyone leaves the aircraft, grabs the first appendage they can, and then they hold on as other jumpers do the same...
The next thing that happens is the flat arch and added surface area will cause the base to float, and the bigger guys will go low. (now those guys arent going to get any "skill enhancement" either.) At this point in the jump the only guys that will CONSISTENTLY be able to dock will be the experienced jumpers.
Forcing your jumpers to fly relative WITHOUT taking grips makes them learn REAL hover control faster than the trial and error method of trying to dock on the formation as you smoke past it. It also teaches them how to "fine tune" the body position they fly with in order to maintain a steady spot in the formation without drifting in and out. (I know because when I was a cherry I did everything I am talking about) As a new HALO guy, when I was finally able to dock on a formation I thought I was KING SHIT! Then I realized that once we broke grips to turn points, I would float/sink/drift/backslide out of the formation and would spend the rest of the jump trying to get back in. Once the team sergeant started making us do no-contact drills my skills started to improve.
If there is any doubt to the value is "no contact flying" just talk to any AFF jumpmaster and I am sure they will say that a 'Category-C' skydive is the hardest AFF working jump you will do. Why is that? It is harder because you have to 'fly slot' without taking any grips on the student!
I used to shoot LOTS of video of student/instructor jumps, and I've seen a lot of really good flyers have most of their problems flying when they had to fly 'all by themselves' without being able to "dock". It used to be (and I am sure it still is) a big joke that sometimes an instructor will "dock" and use his student for stability. If freefall jumpers need a handful of someone elses jumpsuit in order to improve, they arent being trained properly.
The other thing that really needs to be considered in this equation is safety: MFF (like everything else in the United States military) is geared toward training and employing the "weakest link". A commander has to assume that even though his soldiers are all American Ninja heroes, a few of them are going to 'fuck up a shot-put' the first chance they get!
If there are 8 HALO guys with varied degrees of skill standing on the edge of the ramp, I'd say having a few of them with only 30-40 MFF jumps pull off a four way base is probably NOT going to produce the desired result anyway. When the base funnels (and it will) the low time jumpers are going to do ALL KINDS of unpredictable things. (after all - who wants to be the sissy that let go first)
- What happens when a rip cord gets knocked loose? (I've seen it happen: O2 gear and combat equipment at 17,500 feet and an exit funnel left a guy under his reserve) No one was injured, but "what if"
- What happens when an AR2 fires right after exit? One just fired about two thousand feet after exit at Sicily this week and it was a one pass, 30-some odd jumpers in the air fiasco. Like I said: "what if..."
Uncle Sugar doesn't pay me to launch a 'meeker' from the PAC-750 out at Raeford. Uncle Sugars pays me to safely deliver a rucksack to the drop zone in relative proximity to the rest of the jumpers in my stick. The best way to make sure I can deliver that result is to practice doing it! I must say... I love skydiving. I cant make it any more clear than that, but the fact remains, I dont get paid to skydive, I get paid to be a rucksack delivery-man. (thats what the extra pay is for anyway) My real value to the nation is when I open VERY high and I am under canopy shortly after exit, so when the rubber meets the road: the value of my air-skills fade quickly when opening shock comes 10 seconds after exit.
A better drill would be to have a skilled guy poise out and hold a steady base; then have the rest of the jumpers attempt to build a wedge no closer than two body lengths from the base man. Having your most skilled guy go out first does a few different things:
-it puts the guy with the most experience in a position to best observe the other jumpers leaving the aircraft.
-This guy can now give pointers on how guys can get to the base faster and safer.
-It gives EVERYONE that needs the experience a chance to "exit and chase"
When everyone can do this without going low, floating out or backsliding away, have them do a left and right 360 and see how far out of slot they drift. Once they are solid and can do that, have them do it AGAIN with rucksacks, then have them do it again with FRONT mounted rucksacks.
The only time I can remember a military freefall jump NOT being fun was loosing my grip on the flair toggles on a night/O2/combat equipment/tandem jump during "short final"
and I hate to admit it... but that was ALL my fault, I cant blame Uncle Sugar for that one.
There are many more ways to do MFF training AND have fun, but only if guys are willing to admit that the list of "cool static line" stories is a really really really REALLY short list:
...so dude, this one time, I stood up, hooked up, shuffled to the door, jumped right out and counted to four!
MAN, that shit was the BOMB!
Did you guys see that cool PLF I did?
...of course this is all just my opinion, I could be wrong.
There are many more ways to do MFF training AND have fun, but only if guys are willing to admit that the list of "cool static line" stories is a really really really REALLY short list:
...so dude, this one time, I stood up, hooked up, shuffled to the door, jumped right out and counted to four!
MAN, that shit was the BOMB!
Did you guys see that cool PLF I did?
...of course this is all just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Why you gotta go pickin on us mere mortals that never made it to MFF, Billy? :D
Seriously brother. Great post, and great to see some good discussion in this forum once again.
rgrjoe175
17 May 2007, 22:33
Great post Billy. As a civilian I learned much more about flying in Skydive U. I sure as shit was not improving doing four ways with a few guys I knew at the local DZ. AFF did not teach much more than keeping a heading and turning and few barrel rolls.. well and deploying the main..LOL.
Skydive U was well worth the investment.
JP
NightLandNav
18 May 2007, 00:16
...[Excellent post!]...
IMO, every effort to utilize the Relative Work techniques as suggested will really pay off. It will drastically improve safety, accuracy, hence individual/group performance capability.
Again, excellent post.
x2 rgrjoe175, Skydive University (SDU) and Canopy Control School can really help to improve advanced skills, even for experienced levels.
Blue Skies
IMO, a fantastic way to learn canopy control is to practice paragliding. I can't write to the virtues of powered-paragliding, but unpowered will certainly give you some new appreciation for wind, weather, lift, turbulence, etc. Granted, its not EXACTLY like a parachute -- but in MY experience, it is enough that you can make a real improvement in your abilities to never land in a tree again....
kpel308
18 May 2007, 05:06
^^^ Furiously taking notes... GOOD stuff.
Its only my opinion (and this may take a while) BUT:
"No contact" relative work is actually (in my opinion) one of the BEST ways to improve individual freefall skills!...
Spot on. No-contact RW forces the jumper to continuously fly the slot; and stay relative to everyone else in the formation.
Doogie320
18 May 2007, 09:56
Great post, Billy.
Mffi422
18 May 2007, 12:56
Well put Billy...and yes, things haven't change here, same old MFF School...lol
Billy L-bach
23 May 2007, 17:44
...when are you gonna be in town?
Mffi422
24 May 2007, 08:55
Arriving on the night of the 28th of May and departing on the 15th of June.
Thanks for the advice Billy! Tried the no contact with a MFF today and it worked out great! All jumpers stayed within arms distance to the next jumper in as near a perfect "V" as I have ever seen. I was really impressed with my guys today considering most of them had 100 jumps or less.
Billy L-bach
26 May 2007, 18:18
all this and a paycheck too
Not living in the past, but definitely living. Besides, I'm a better canopy pilot now than I ever was for Uncle Sam...sorry Sam...but I'm here if you need me.
Hell, if you were lving on the past on a CE jump, I don't want you anywhere near me.
Billy-L: all this and a paycheck too
Army taking all the fun out MFF? Still haven't jumped FF with the Army. But AF CE was still fun in it's own masochistic way. Sure, boondoggles to Quincy were a nice gift. But I'll take the pain of a 130 jump anytime. Fear of height, adrenaline spike, testosterone secretion increases and sensory overload. That only happened to me on a C-130 MFF, or riding aircrew in back of a Pavehawk in country. God I love flying.
NightLandNav
27 May 2007, 04:07
Not living in the past, but definitely living.
Hell, if you were lving on the past on a CE jump, I don't want you anywhere near me.
DY, you might not anyway. :D
Blue Skies
Lol. Flat dumb and happy is good for me... Well, two out of three anyway.
they cant take away the fun if you dont let them brother.......
...and if all else fails: leave work early (I do it all the time!) - Raeford is only 15 minutes away!
Dude Exactomento!
I remember teaming up with you a few times aaahhhh the memories. Hell I still have the picture you took on our last jump.
Hey speaking of Raeford, did Ed Dixon become the new HMFIC for the region? And did Will make the Knights those were some great guys who taught me accuracy.
But seriously your right the amry does take some fun out of it, but in your head you can make it anything you want. I do all the time.
Billy L-bach
22 July 2007, 18:33
Ed Dixon is the new mid-Atlantic regional director, and yes Will traded in his red white and blue for black and gold.
When ya gonna be in town again?
Hey bro,
I will be in the area around August. I miss the DZ since it was a home away from home....literally. Well that and Mott lake. I will definately hook up with you bro, I still have my Griffin 135 will only 20 jumps on it I got from Chrissy if you remember her. She was Chatter Monkey. Tell Will I said congrats. He taught me alot and took care of me several times. Are you still over at the company or the school house? PM me your dsn
zulu
sfmedicw9
16 August 2007, 20:48
MFF not fun? :confused: :D
hmmmmmmmmm lets see ruck, weapon, O2, Night, 30k AGL , Summer on the ground, winter out the ramp, AF Math, No Comfort Pallets, Too much skoal being passed around, hmmmmmmmmmmm
I have no clue what the original poster was talking about :-)
Damn Im going to hell for that lie
NightLandNav
16 August 2007, 21:31
hmmmmmmmmm lets see ruck, weapon, O2, Night, 30k AGL , Summer on the ground, winter out the ramp, AF Math, No Comfort Pallets, Too much skoal being passed around, hmmmmmmmmmmm
I have no clue what the original poster was talking about :-)
Damn Im going to hell for that lie
That's it right there. :D
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