Unarmed combat training

[SpecOpNightfall]

I am considering begining Tae Kwon Do classes, but I am worried that learning a martial art by heart now may produce conflicts with future techniques that will be taught to me in the military (i.e. martial art may kick in in an emergency instead of military training). Will taking a martial art now help or hinder future military unarmed training? (I'm also worried about going with my current ways of eye gouging and kidney stabing in a class:-)).

[Snake]

Difficult question to answer. Could help, most probably would hurt. -I- would forget about MA classes and focus on athletic fitness, to ensure capability. Browse on over to the Digital Library and print up a copy of FM 21-150 (Combatives) and work out of that. Url is : 155.217.58.58

Look under Infantry Field Manuals.

Snake
25th ID(L)

[LRSC Grunt]

Anyone have any info on ninjutsu? Its probably the only MA class I would consider.

[WS-G]

LRSC Grunt:

Back when I was in Co. G (Abn), 143d INF, we had an ex-2/75th NCO (SSG Lindsey) who was a practitioner of Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu; this is Stephen Hayes' style. We were fortunate enough to have Mr. Hayes come to personally instruct stalking and sentry-silencing back in 1983! Togakure-ryu is definitely worth learning.

Some other forms I've found that are also worthwhile are:

(1) K'rav Magá: The name is simply the Modern Hebrew term "close-combat". Developed from European street-fighting by the late Imi Lichtenfeld while serving as a policeman in Prague, Czechoslovakia. Has been the H2H system of the IDF for the past half century; color belts are accredited by the Israeli Ministry of Education.

(2) Brasilian Ju-Jitsu (BJJ): developed from traditional ju-jitsu by the Gracie family of Rio de Janeiro, beginning in 1914 and continuing to this day, and incorporates numerous capoeira (traditional Brasilian ground-fighting) techniques. Royce Gracie won first place in the Ultimate Fighting Championship, using this very art a couple of years ago. Strong emphasis on holds/chokes/takedowns using the legs, as well as ground-fighting. I highly recommend this style! My instructor in Defensive Tactics and Mechanics of Arrest at the police academy I'm currently attending swears by BJJ. IMO, it's damned hard to go wrong learning this one.

(3) Jeet Kune Do: developed by Bruce Lee (need I say more? *G*). Fantastic for females and slightly-built males, as JKD techniques rely heavily upon speed rather than size/strength/mass.

(4) Boxing: Yes, boxing. Great training for keeping your head out of your ass, just remember to toss the Marquis of Queensbury Rules out the window! Strongest point IMO is the extremely steep learning-curve. Moves normally considered "fouls" work wonderfully. Which brings me to...

(5) Thai Kickboxing: not personally well-versed in it, but few (if any) in the SOF and LE communities who are have anything bad to say about it.

(6) SAFTA: C.J. Carracci, a real-deal SEAL whose service includes a stint as one of CDR Richard Marcinko's merry men, produced a video on this system. Highly thought-of in the Teams, by several accounts. Not to be confused with SCARS!

(7) Mu Tau Pankration (MTP): basically an effort at reviving the fighting style of the ancient Græco-Roman gladiator. Claims a direct lineage to the combat form of the ancient Spartans. That story's a great selling-point, but in the final analysis it appears to be yet another "Ultimate Fighting Championship" form so take its claims with a large grain of salt. Still, you may find it worth a look.

A word about Tae Kwon Do (TKD): I trained in TKD during college for a couple of hours of Phys. Ed. credit. After having already learned what is taught in FM 21-150 and in the works of the late William Fairbairn (reprints of his book Get Tough! are available from Paladin Press and are worth the modest amount of money), this was the easiest "A" I ever got in any course. As a system, TKD is better than no system at all, but I personally consider it a waste of time and effort for anyone who needs to learn real-world H2H.

[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 11-19-1999).]

[seb]

Though I dont have any military experience
I highlly suggest any form of martial art.
It builds confidence,physical power and a
certain tolerance for pain.I do Kajukenbo
which is a mixture of chinese boxing(chuan fa),judo,jujitsu and kenpo.A modified form
of kajukenbo is taught to the kuwaiti SF.Later

[RGV4]

My bud that's an ex-18E swears by Muay Thai, but then again he learned it from the masters in Thailand.
A new club just opened up here that instructs in Capoeira Angola- the fighting style Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was taken from. Let me just say the Gracies made a lot of improvements. Ever see that Van Damme movie with the black dude that fights like a monkey? That's basically what these cats were doing (to music, no less).

[Mac679]

Oh Mr. Salter! ( aka LRRP :-),
Don't completely knock Tae Kwon Do, it depends on the organization. The World Tae Kwon Do Federation is heavily responsible for the emphasis on kicking techniques and sport. These are the guys who aren't allowed to punch in competition. I'll give them credit for coming up with some great footwork to compensate that's great for rules favoring them ( Olympics for example ), bad for open tournaments and combat. Some systems and individual instructors branch out and work to minimize Tae Kwon Do's shortcomings. A group ( World TKD Fed no less ) that I worked with at college required all their Black Belt candidates to study Hapkido ( for it's throws, joint locks, standup grappling, and falls ) for at least 3 mos. before being allowed to test. My instructor mixes in some Judo, Wrestling, and Boxing as well as working ( usually by screaming and motivational pushups ) to make sure that we mix an equal amount of kicks and punches. Define real world. *No* martial art that engages in competition competes with "real world H2H". UFC, Vale Tudo, etc., tournaments *all* have rules. A soldier in combat won't care about getting in trouble for a groin shot, eye gouge, or bite to come out on top. All it comes down to is who's more willing to do what it takes to come out on top and who "cheats" better/quicker.
As for Brazillian Jiujitsu and Capoeira, neither is related to the other. Capoeira was developed from a native African martial art that was brought over by slaves. The techniques had to be disguised as a dance so music was added to prevent slave owners from discovering that the slaves were actually training. BJJ was developed by the Gracies ( most notably Carlos and Helio ). Carlos was taught by a Japanese master in Brazil in gratitude for the aid Carlos' father had been in helping a Japanese colony become established in Brazil. I have no doubt that BJJ and Capoeira met in the various NHB tournaments in Brazil and that techniques were mutually borrowed, but that's about as much as they influenced each other. As for the hype in grappling/groundfighting created by "NHB" tournaments-look at the rules, they favor grapplers. I don't see anyone talking about Maurice Smith much, who was a kickboxer who won by knockout. I'm only trying to put groundfighting in perspective. Groundfighting and striking are both *equally* important.
Nightfall, take the classes. Previous training will help you learn the combatives techniques quicker.
LRSC, try the following sites: http://www.bujinkan.com http://www.ninjutsu.com
Some other links of interest: http://www.russianmartialart.com http://www.hwarangdo.com http://www.machadojj.com http://www.gracie.com http://www.combattech.com http://www.tonyblauer.com
Mac (LRRP, you know me as "Nug" :-)

[LRSC Grunt]

Is there a web site for Capoeira?

[WS-G]

Nug:

I thought that was you when I saw all that SF-theme stuff on your personal webpage (excellent bit of research, BTW!). Points well taken.

LRSC Grunt:

Try this link: http://www.middlebury.edu/~jswan/martial.arts/ma.html (http://www.middlebury.edu/~jswan/martial.arts/ma.html).

[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 11-19-1999).]

[Nemo]

LRSC Grunt,
Try http://www.martialinfo.com

It has a lot of links to pages about Capoeira and a ton of other arts.

[Mac679]

Thanks LRRP, not done with the sight yet though :-)
LRSC, try http://www.capoeira.com
Also for people looking to invest in videos drop by http://www.altinet.net/~karate/mavr2.htm the people there review video tapes and aren't afraid to tell you their honest opinions.
Mac

[willis]

What do think of wrestling as a form of martial arts in the military.

[Jack Ryan]

To Slater:

I agree with 99% of what you said. I saw that you highly recommended Brazilian/Gracie jujitsu. It's is definitly a great art, but it does have one flaw. Gracie jujitsu practioners love to get their opponents on the ground and then apply some type of arm,leg,or wrist lock. Works great when your fighting one on one, but the art lacks when it comes to defending yourself against multiple attackers. Don't get me wrong I think it is defenitly a great art, especially for one on one. If I had the time I would mix aikido, shotokan, and gracie jujitsu. Anyone who is able to master these three arts is not someone you want mess with.

As far as TKD it is pretty much worthless as far as self-defense. Practioners trained in TKD would have a very difficult time with someone well versed in either shotokan or gracie jujitsu or any other traditional japanese arts.

As you say, just my .02 cents!

[ZeroG]

Ground fighting will be tough in the real world, especially if the guy you are wrestling on the ground likes to bite chunks of flesh off your arm or leg. Ground fighting works great with rules.

[PathfinderJr3325]

Gents:

As far as TKD goes:
I have seen (and participated in) the asses of too many 3rd and 4th degree black belts of TKD practicioners being kicked. They simply are ill-prepared for anything other than an olympic event with little contact.
The only ones that had any ability at all got it by mixing in worthwhile martial arts.

As far as martial arts go? I'd give aikido a try if you can give it the time it needs.
Ninjutsu is great stuff, but make sure it isn't Koga-ryu.

Any of the combative-related disciplines are a good starting point. Just remember to
apply the principles constantly and look for
fast, effective, dirty techniques. (Jump spinning back kicks don't work with 60 lbs of equipment on)

KATN

[JOE-BOO]

understand where the human form is weak and strike....PERIOD!

Aggressiveness is the key.

1. Cause chaos in the mind or body....(poke an eye, kick the nuts, chop the throat...maybe just pull an arm hard enough to cause "eye-jerk").

2. Take balance....(manipulate the body so that it moves where you want it to, so that # 1 or 3 can be facilitated).

3. Break things....(fngers, arms....whatever!!!...also facilitates the other two objectives)

4. Never fight fair.


These are the basics and do not change.

Do not forget #4 when you are practicing your... "SPORTS"

[Mac679]

On Tae Kwon Do,
like I said previously-different organizations train differently. WTF trains for Olympic style events. Their whole method of training is geared towards competition. They're also the only organization in South Korea and are the reason Tae Kwon Do is no longer labeled a martial art by the Korean government. Pathfinder, you said you've participated in those ass kickings, how many of you did it take? Let's see you do 2, 3, or 4 on 1 before you start trashing people and their particular dedication to stick with something long enough to make 3rd or 4th Dan. On the concept of light contact, I've left training with some of those Olympic stylists with bruises that stuck out a 1/4" from my arm because of blocking-and that's through the protective gear. I've had my bell rung a few times as well, so light contact ain't exactly true. Knockouts are not uncommon in Olympic style fighting. Of the arts you named only Aikido trains for multiple opponents from the beginning. Does the art have holes? Yes, but name an art that doesn't. Cross training is very important but so is training for as many possible eventualities as you can think of in your own art-something that's not done enough. I don't see many folks learning to use their art by squaring off against other arts for mutual benefit. Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido, did this routinely. Jump spinning back kicks don't work with 60lbs of gear, but try effectively doing a triangle choke from BJJ, or shomen-uchi irmin nage from Aikido and Daito-ryu Aiki-jiujitsu. One advocate of jumping kicks for personal protection is Tony Blauer, a well respected combatives instructor. His reasoning for them: they're unexpected. I'll agree it's not something to do with combat equipment on or in combat, but classical Aikido and Budo Taijutsu techniques aren't something you'd want to be doing either.
11Zulu, if I remember correctly, you said you practiced SCARS correct? The principles of SCARS are sound but the techniques Peterson uses aren't always. He says he teaches principles and I agree with a good number of them ( except his claim that they are 100% fail proof-nothing is as far as I'm concerned ), however when he starts to say his was is the only way to do these techniques I begin to question his motives. His repeated trashing of other instructors has lost him any respect he might have gotten from me. He has trashed Vladimir Vasiliev and RMA but not once when this was brought forth over at the RMA website did Mr. Vasiliev say anything negative about Peterson in retaliation.
Just my own thoughts, opinions, and observations,
Mac

[PathfinderJr3325]

MAC,

I have applied this with up to 3 TKD practicioners at once. I have studied Aikido for 6 years, and you are correct, we did learn multiple-attacker defenses from the
beginning. From constant observation, it seems to me that (unlike Aikido) TKD practicioners don't spar/train with many
practioners of legitimate combat arts.

TKD practicioners seem to be easy to defeat
by applying the following techniques:

Offering your head as bait-
Sounds dumb, and requires a fair amount of skill, but hear me out. Olympic-TKD seems to stress high kicks to the head as a viable
target. Sweet! Offer your head as a target,
and when he bites and commits to a kick attack, sweep his posted leg and step on his throat.

Using Muay Thai "checks"

Muay Thai, at least what of it I have learned in exchanges with other martial artists, seems to stresss "checking" of
an opponent's kick with your shin at his ankle. At the very least, this will get his
attention, or offer you a sweet transitional
strike to the groin/ solar plexus or a sweep to the back of his posted knee.

Grappling techniques:
Most of the Olympic TKD practicioners here find grappling techniques to be a rude shock.
Most of the hand techniques in Aikido really
come as a surprise to them. Also, basic Judo/
JuJutsu techniques seem to really ruin their day, as most of them don't have a clue what to do on the ground. I don't advocate ground fighting if you can avoid it, but if it is my ass or his, the Marquis of Queensbury is out the window.

I meant no offense to the TKD practicioners out there. I mean with all honesty and respect that I admire their accomplishments as athletes and sportsmen, and TKD is certainly an entertaining martial sport. However, when will the day come that a teacher of ineffective and sport-oriented
techniques will honestly admit that he is teaching his students little of practical
combat value?

Mac, I have studied Aikido for 6 years, and
made a diligent study of all of the open material on combatives for every nation in the world I could find. Aikido/Aikijutsu
combined with the rough principles of most combative systems has stood me in good stead.
However, in exposing TKD practicioners to something unfamiliar, they realize the massive gaps in their knowledge and that they
may have wasted time studying a sport when they would have been better served learning hapkido or hwarang-do.

Hope it clears things up- http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif


------------------
Check Six

[JOE-BOO]

MAC...My comment was not an attack at anyone...my cmments were to remind those who are less technical about this sort of thing that they are not incorrect for being so...
I do not know of the incedent(s) that you refer to, nor do i necessarily care. SCARS record stands for itself...this I have done the research on....however, is it 100% effective....well, that depends on the person using the "PRINCIPLES" like many fighting systems....The beauty that I see in SCARS is how it is not dependant on my ability to execute a "technique" rather it is dependant on the opponent's involuntary reaction to a strike, throw, or hold.

Realizing that am a lazy person and want to find the easy way to an end...SCARS is a great method for me....instead of concentating on what my move I want to use when...I instead get a loose idea of what I want the opponent to look like when i am done....Example: Broke jaw.....Well a better person than me might be fast enough to get a swing in and accomplish this or a cresent kick...I just smack his nuts with my left hand and move to his right, wait for him to bend over at the waist, shift his weight to his toes,place his hands on his groin, flex his neck and voila...a really nice set up for a very powerful right fist blow to the side of the jaw in a downward motion causing a break....all four principles in two shots....no athletisism involved or hours of training...a simple dult like myself can do it.

Best of all....I am never out of practice, and it works every time...

"well some people can take a shot to the nuts"

....not if principle #4 is applied.

My point is not to knock other systems...because SCARS is not original...the designer of the human form gets the real credit.

Basically, you do dnot have to bestrong if you know where you and everyone else is weak.

I am going to rag on Ju-Jitsu as it is being taught in the infantry right now....load of crap for what it is advertised...first thing out of the instructors mouth was that there are no cheap shots...ie. nut shots...eye pokes...etc. Best I can figure it works if you play by their rules and they have more practice.

10 year student of this stuff "mounted" me and collapsed on me to show how he could incapacitate me like he had done several others be smothering them. I raised my knee into his bean-bag and he got rigid. This made him very easy to manipuate. Had I stuggled under his rules he would have won. If I believed that we were training for a sport I would have followed the rules. The little I know about combat has shown me that rules are for people who are not at risk of being maimed or killed. That is why none of these ARTS has ever been given accredidation by the DoD. Sure some CO might like it, but it has not proven itself effective because of limits. What good is JJitsu if there is no ground or horizontal surface to work with (Water, sloping ground)...a shot to the nuts is effective in zero gravity or gym mats.

SCARS aside...the 4 priciples listed above work anyway

[Cole]

A soldier can use almost any martial art to his (or her) advantage if they can take techniques that are applicable to what they want to accomplish. I think the key of martial arts is to eliminate the "down time" when one encounters a H2H combat situation; no thinking, only action. This is where martial arts will truly save a soldier. After years of training, a person has a fighting instinct that is developed through long hours of training. An expert of an art will instinctivly react to the situation. As for the fight dirty part of the SCAR formula, I totally agree. An RCMP officer told me that in training they are taught hand to hand techniques and given the mental psyche that it is either "him or me." Their goal is to disable the suspect as quickly as possible, using any method possible. I read a Ninjitsu book of techniques once that showed a particular set of manouevers involving throwing sand at an oppenents eyes (real or not-the diversion is the key) and the going for a technique known as "monkey steals the peach" (you catch the drift) So martial arts can be effective and dirty also. By the way, regarding Capoeria, I seen a demonstration at my school. Although at face value it might appear useless (a bunch of flips, jumps, and sweeps to music) the acrobatic feats of these martial artists was amazing. I think that the flexibility and stamina aquired from Capoeria makes it a worthy art for military training.

[soup82]

My insite on military hand to hand.

1. The training schedule is pretty crowded. Trying to teach anything like aikido probably isn't going to happen. We tried to make time on our team. After looking at the time available, Barry Sparlin and I came up with the following. Basic punching (boxing punches, when done correctly, I said correctly, are devastating), basic throws (floating hip, crosshock), basic chokes and escape from chokes (naked strangle), and basic ground work. Our reasoning was that a few techniques, practiced to exhaustion, were more likely to be used than a fighting system done in a gym with mats or gis. I've studied judo, TKD, wado ryu karate. All school based and to a certain extent, with rules. Judo has come in very handy (several guys left unconscious on bar floors). Sparlin had studied TKD and northern style praying mantis. Prior to entering the army, he held the Texas and Lousiana kick boxing titles (junior I believe). He is simply amazing. He started when he was 11. Figure out the years involved yourself. There simply isn't enough time in the training schedule to teach a comprehensive fighting art. You have to stick to basic techniques. Having said that, I am now studying Leung Ting Wing Tsun, not to be mistaken with Wing Chun. No one, including B. Sparlin, ever took me down in less than five seconds. This guy didn't even break a sweat. I was impressed until I saw his instructors (German cops) take him down even faster. Here's the thing. The learning curve is extremely sharp. From the first second of lesson one, you learn practical, applyable combat skills. There are no rules, all practice is "full speed". Hardest thing is the footwork, which is very awkward at first, but turns out to be the key. There are four principles, two forms (or katas). Instead of quoting the principles, I'll give them as I remember them. Move to contact --- Maintain contact ---- Give way to overwhelming force (not retreat) ---- Fill the empty spaces (Don't attack his strength, attack his weakness). Probably the best defense/response to low kicks I've ever learned. Learnt in lesson one. How do you know if you're doing it right. It gets tested with full speed/force kicks. There are no hand blocks, instead deflections that create openings or "empty/undefended space" (Principle four). One "bad thing". It's not fancy, doesn't look that good, physically tiring and boring. Why? Because it's repetition, repetition, repetition. What else. First system I've seen that covers it all, from kicking distance to the ground with easy, effective techniques. First system that has taught how to attack, not just defend (fight starts before the punches begin to fly). First system that has taught me how to "close the gap". Brings me to the two forms. Forms are not stylized fighting. Just used to practice correct techniques. First form is the tool box (punches, blocks/deflections, proper stance), second form takes the tools from the tool box and practices how to get them to work (movement to contact, the most dangerous part of the encounter). There is a lot more to say about it, but in closing, the German head of the Leung Ting Wing Tsun organization (Keith Kernspecht) has published a book called "On Single Combat" Highly recommended reading. He's pretty arrogant, especially with his disregard for other systems. Having been a student for two years now, I can see why. Oh yeah, JMHO.

Cheers,

Patrick LaRocque

P.S. When I said that it was the first I meant that it was the first system I'VE seen personally that taught these to me.

[recce_o]

Patrick:

Since you have experience in a number of systems, how do you rate Wado Ryu Karate, assuming one has the time to devote to training in accordance with the syllabus?

It incorporates many of the principles you praise in your post.

[Scout]

I have to agree with Walter, ninjutsu is THE best martial art. there's three schools, Bujinkan ninjutsu (Mr Haye's style), Genbukan ninpo, and jeninkan ninpo. Two of Dr Hatsumi's top students broke away to form their own school because they felt that Hatsumi had watered down ninjutsu for American consumption. This is supposed to be changing, Bujinkan is supposed to be shifting focus from the academic back to the physical.
I've studied Genbukan, and can attest to the seriousness, and the lethality of this art--not something you play with at tourneys. I'm about to start Bujinkan in the fall and i'll let you know what its like then.

[soup82]

Recce,

I have studied a few different styles, but in no way will I present myself as an expert at any of them. I have studied judo since I was 18 (I'm 37 now) and only quit when I moved to Dubai (no clubs). I studied TKD for 9 months and realized that it didn't fit my particular attitudes of close contact. Although judo was the most effective I've used in fights, it was not developed as a fighting style but as a sport for school children. TKD is likewise a sport and while it engenders a high level of athletic ability, I don't consider it a combat style. Wado Ryu problably comes close but I had my problems with it as explained below. Wing Tsun is the first style I have studied that I think of as a proper combat style. There are probably dozens of styles that are good combat styles but I don't know them. In a combat situation, you are going to be coming up against some pretty hard mean people. Countries such as Russia and Soviet Asia have their own histories of martial arts with a heavy emphasis on wrestling. Anything that pits strength against strength is going to be won by the stronger person. Any style that puts technique before strength and uses physical fitness as an asset rather than a necessity offers an advantage.

I didn't like Wado Ryu for the following reasons, some not related to the style itself. I didn't stay with it long enough to form a good opinion. Its popularity in the UK probably points to its good qualities.

The instructors were shit heads and I left the class because of them. One example of many: they called the cops on a competing TKD instructor because he was competing with them for business, accusing him of being an illegal immigrant (he wasn't). I can't rembember the guys name, but their instructor from England came over to administer tests. HE was an outstanding example of Wado Ryu at its best, but under their instruction, none of their students were ever going to be able to reach a good level.

Particular points about wado ryu as a --combat style--, no head, knee, elbow, groin attacks in sparring, i.e., point sparring. No grappling or ground work, indeed no close work at all. I stymied the instructor in the first week simply by staying inside his arms and attacking with hooks and uppercuts. (I didn't stay long enough to see if they had any, I suspect this was too energetic and didn't look fancy enough for these particular instructors.) First effective defense/counter attack against knee and groin attacks I've ever learned was from Wing Tsun.

After seeing the difference between a good instructor (the guy from UK) and these guys, I left, realizing that I wasn't going to learn anything useful from these two and preferring to work on my heavy bag rather than learn bad habits. They really disparaged TKD. I watched the TKD instructor, an Iranian named Mohammed, run circles around the head instructor, doing back flips to avoid blows, dancing in and out playing (gentle) tag with them. Instead of saying, okay, he's a better fighter/athlete, the guy started cursing and swearing at him. As you can see, my opinion of Wado Ryu has been affected by two extremely bad instructors and I don't want to disparage a style that I don't feel I know enough about to comment on its usefulness.

I believe in different strokes for different folks. Everyone has his own particular likes and dislikes when it comes to martial arts. My attraction to wing tsun for MILITARY hand to hand is the minimal amount of training time needed to reach a level of competence, principles that are the same for the five levels of contact (leg, hand, knees and elbows, grappling, ground fighting), minimal need for flexibility, the emphasis on movement ASAP into close contact fighting where most people are uncomfortable fighting, minimal techniques. Most techniques are taught in the first two levels, then improved in the next levels. Also, like judo, there is a very good system of control to ensure that standards are kept and met. (Can you tell I'm nuts for Wing Tsun) Unlike other level tests in other systems, tests are given by independent assessors, who litterally throw everything at you. You don't get battered, just every mistake is pointed out by grips on the throat, taps on the head, taps on the knees and groin, landing on the floor, etc. You walk away from the test discouraged, thinking you failed. I passed my first three levels on first try, but had to go twice for my fourth level. What happens from this type of testing is you realize just how much you don't know and how far you do have to go. But sitting down, watching people being tested, you think, am I moving as fast, deflecting and attacking at the same time? The last test I did, we had a group of 15 German police and police SWAT members over. One of them told me that for 90% of encounters, the first two levels cover it all, the rest is just polish and training for the other 10%. I haven't mentioned chi sao (feeling arms) because it is an advanced tool (not technique) and does take a long time to learn.

Fighting spirit is the one unknown that no one can account for. In most other styles, I managed to tag everyone just through sheer aggressiveness and a willingness to take punishment. In wing tsun, aggressiveness just meant that I hit the floor faster, taking punishment without dealing it out. I had originally heard a lot of complaints, especially about the foot work. Not hard, but it takes attention to detail. After getting knocked down for 10 minutes and without ever touching the instructor, I decided that it deserved a look. First three lessons (not levels) are exasperating due to coordination issues. After that the learning curve is extremely quick. Priorities built into the system are self protection followed by attack. By protecting yourself against attack, the enemy opens himself when he attacks, giving you targets of opportunity, which you attack while still protecting yourself. At level three you learn simultaneous defense and attack. Has to be seen to be believed but very effective. Again, I'm talking about it in a military sense, i.e., training time vs effectiveness, application at any contact level from kicks to ground fighting, application of instinctive reactions under stress and effective protection from attacks.

Having said that, the best training I ever had for fighting spirit was the bayonet training I received in basic training.

WHAT IS THE SPIRIT OF THE BAYONET?

Enough already, what was the original question?

Cheers,

Patrick LaRocque

[Alex Li]

A work about TKD:
I met a TKD practicer and fight with him.
I found that the rapid kicks of TKD are quiet terrible.
It is hard to find a karate practicer who can perform such rapid kicks.
TKD may be weak in ground fighting, however, it has its strong point.

SCARS?
What is it?Could I any information about it?


Ninjutsu??Is it really reliable?
Most ninjutsu practicer study it as an art,but not a hand to hand combat skill.
I am interested if Hatsumi fight with a SEAL commando.
Could Hatsumi win?I don't know.
I think it is a best experiment for ninjutsu.
A SEAL commando use combat skill to maintain his life,
but ninjutsu practicer just study it as an art.(most)
Scout, would you please give me more information on the topic of ninjutsu?

[JOE-BOO]

go to www.scars.com (http://www.scars.com)

[PathfinderJr3325]

Ninjutsu is a way of life. Read Masaaki Hatsumi, Steven Hayes, Glenn Morris or other
Togakure Ryu ninjutsu authors. Avoid Ashida Kim, Harukana Hoshino and Ronald Duncan.

[Alex Li]

What we need is a reliable cambat skill,but not an art,right?
Thought deeply,ninjutsu is the skills used
by ninjas.A way of life?Is it too serious?


Thanks 11ZULU.

[PathfinderJr3325]

Alex;

Ninjutsu is a way of life. One of ninjutsu's
strengths is that you apply the mindset (and technique, to a limited degree) to your way of life. If you are willing to give the dedication required, it is an extremely effective combat system. Modern military training schedules are probably so crowded that with the exception of Spetsnaz, where a blackbelt was a requirement while at Ryazan
(I think, any help on that?), hand to hand combat fights for time with other subjects.
Most operators find more basic CQC training more useful, I believe.


Scout? More info about the breakaways?
thanks in advance

[This message has been edited by PathfinderJr3325 (edited 05-04-2000).]

[JOE-BOO]

Alex...
That is what I am trying to say...as a student of Taoism (I even have it on my dog tags...) I do not have time to fight like that...argue maybe...not fight....Martial Arts are art....much dogmatic crap and little substance for the amount of effort...I am not looking for enlightenment through breaking a collar bone or cresent kicking a jaw....many of these "arts" are a way of life...which was necessary in a fuedal culture for survival...you started as a small child and the lessons of life where intigrated into the Fighting skills....problem???? Yes as a adult i am not going to waste my time doing push-ups in a dojo for several years to fight. Going through belts is crap to me....I do nt need to ractice a forward role for three years to move on to choking someone out or break two boards to dye my belt a different color.

I need the skinny and now....time is scarce.
I know people who are into this stuff and that is great but I don't like to look up to people and tht is what a belt system does....how many times have you ben to a martial arts class to see the student drooling over the instructor and him loving it....screw that...when i took my course at SCARS they told me up front that we were there for business and business was to fight...bullshitting was during lunch...maybe.

It only has principles not dogma. SAFTA...an ego boost for Hicks..."Look I was a SEAL and I know things...." Whooptie doo!!!!
I am the single most destructive force on the battle field and I do not look up to others for there acccmplishments that they brag about for money.

If you by into that crap then you probably own an "OFFICIAL NAVY SEAL" watch or knife or other items that has features you will never need.

Do the research for a couple of days and save your time and money....know what you really want....if you need an art then get one...I don't need an art right now

[jinX]

As a pure combat art i've found Eskrima to be extremely effective. Not only was it incorporated into JKD's general curriculum, but on it's own it's very deadly and the Serrada (close-quarters) style is quite applicable to Special Operators - I think. I'm not making any claims here, but let me quantify my statement:

1. The first thing our instructor said was: WE DON'T FIGHT FAIR. Use whatever means you can to end the fight quickly and demolish your opponent.

2. Weapons training precedes unarmed training. Specifically, we learned to use medium- to short- length sticks with an emphasis on using the "blade-edge" of the stick. Eskrima was originally a blade-art, after all. To my knowledge, this would work well with all manner of combat / tactical edged weapons.

3. There is (at least at my school) a very heavy emphasis on the physical. While time is limited (two-hour classes), a great amount of time is spent on physical conditioning - including running, stretching, sit-ups, push-ups - you name it.

4. My school emphasizes very real-world applications. We rarely use formal titles, and the only uniform we have is "wear black". This means u can arrive in civvie clothing or military BDUs if that is your choice. As long as it's black.

5. Eskrima (Serrada) is a simple combat form. For the beginning student, there are only five angles that need be learned in order to be a devastating combatant, eventually moving on to 12 angles. It is, if you will pardon the pun, a "High-Speed" combat form.

Anyway, my $.02. If anyone out there has had experience with Eskrima (particularly Serrada), then please speak up =)

------------------
"I am not a stormtrooper, I am a soldier of my country."

"I am not a terrorist, I am a freedom fighter."

[PathfinderJr3325]

Jinx;

Some of the instructors that
work for me are eskrima practicioners,
and they have told me (my own research
seems to reinforce this) that there is
less of an emphasis on unarmed combat,
but that the techniques offer an
outstanding basis for training large
numbers of people in basic stick/edged weapons skills quickly. Overall, the
skills seem to be an excellent complement
to basic hand to hand skills, but, like
any martial skill, they require maintainence.

Scout? Any more about the ninjutsu breakaways?

[This message has been edited by PathfinderJr3325 (edited 05-11-2000).]

[tadpole11]

Listen up,

If you really want to fight try (JKD) Jeet Kune Do, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and Muay Thai. JKD uses BJ and Muay Thai in its system. Muay Thai is the most brutal stand up martial art in the world. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is king in No holds Barred matches. JKD mixes Muay Thai, Filipino Kali-Escrima, Indonesian Silat, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and others in its system. That way you cover all four ranges, punching, kicking, trapping and grappling as well as conventional weapons like knives and sticks.
As far as Ninjitsu, TKD, Karate, all i have to say is SUCKS. Just look at the Ultimate Fighting championships, in UFC 2 a Ninja practitioner got his ass kicked by a kickboxer named Pat Smith in the first round on the ground with elbow smashes.
TKD and Karate is all flash, in the K-1 tournaments the Muay Thai fighters have demolished their TKD and Karate adversaries.

Special Operators like ex-SEAL Frank Cucci (JKD instructor and a black belt in Brazilian Jiujitsu under Rickson Gracie!!!)and ex-Green Beret Jim Webb (JKD instructor) claim this as well.

tadpole11

[PathfinderJr3325]

tadpole;

have to say I agree with most of what you said, however the ninjutsu practicioners you mentioned practice a diluted form that ain't the real deal. If it ain't Togakure, look closely and be careful

[Mac679]

one word on BJJ, yes it's damn good for one on one on the ground, thing is, look at the classical systems of Jiujitsu, those developed and used by the Samurai on of all places, the battlefield. You'll notice the classical methods avoided going to the ground and pins were done face first. Evidence of this can be found in Aikido as well ( most of the materials I've seen-incl. Budo and The Essence of Aikido show face down pins and little to no groundfighting ). Why is it like this? Because the Samurai realized something, you start rolling around with someone during a combat situation and someone's gonna come up and while you're trying to pass the guard or get control, a buddy of the guy you're fighting will come up and ventilate your lung from the outside. BJJ is definitely a great system for ground fighting but it's got it's weaknesses just like any other system. Good article explaining the differences can be found here: http://www.jhoonrhee.com/otherMA/Brazilian_jiu_Jitsu.htm
As for UFC--it's a sport, a competition, etc., it has rules, the only rules in combat are those established by the Geneva & Hague Conventions-nothing in there about pulling a knife and killing the guy, nothing in there about not gouging someone's eye out, pulling a gun and shooting the guy, biting him, groin shots, breaking his knee/elbow, etc. Whoever cheats first and best wins.
Now just one question, for those who keep putting down TKD how many have any length of experience in it? Some people may not like it after trying it, and that's fine-they've tried it and it didn't fit them. They've earned the right to disagree with it. I see a lot of people knocking classical martial arts, or just martial arts in general--same applies. Pathfinder and I have differing views on TKD and that comes from his experience with it. Yes TKD has been very heavily sportified ( thank you WTF--the Olympic guys who love going for head shots and flashy stuff when sparring, good footwork for that type of stuff, but bad for actual combat ) but not all systems/organizations focus on that aspect of it. WTF is actually the largest organization and has schools all over the world so their form of sparring is the perception of it. Pathfinder may not know this but I have a lot of respect for Aikido and O Sensei. I actually intend to study it when I have the opportunity. What I'm saying is that all arts have holes ( for example, how many of these "complete" arts teach weapons use to include firearms? Environmental awareness? etc. ). I've only seen a few that come close to this, Ninjutsu is one, Systema is another. Just some random free floating thoughts.
Mac

[PathfinderJr3325]

Mac;

Never meant to knock TKD or
it's practicioners, just wanted
a little honesty about it's being
a sport, not a combat system.

I wish you luck when you begin your
study of Aikido. I think you'll love
how it complements the dirty tricks
you already know http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif


Systema? sounds familiar. More info?

[This message has been edited by PathfinderJr3325 (edited 05-12-2000).]

[This message has been edited by PathfinderJr3325 (edited 05-12-2000).]

[HitMan]

11ZULU:
I agree with you.
What we need is not an art ,but dirty combat skill which can kills.
However.............Why do you practice SCARS?
I have been to its wedsite.A lot of advertisements................
Is it really reliable?

[Mac679]

Pathfinder,
not so much you ( you based it off your experience ), you are right though, TKD does have an excessive focus on sport, it does however depend on which organization one trains with ( WTF, ITF, etc. ); also remember reading somewhere that TKD is listed as a sport in Korea. It's got it's strong points and weakpoints. Perhaps it's strongest point is that it is so widespread and gives a lot of people their first look at the martial arts.
As for Systema, it's a Russian system that was supposedly taught to the darkside of Spetsnaz. The principles behind it are similar to those in Aikido and Taiji/Tai Chi ( redirection of force, etc. ). Systema is based around one's interpretation of the techniques. It's not set in stone. You can find the website at http://www.russianmartialart.com
Might give some ideas for interesting atemi during your throws.
Take care,
Mac


[This message has been edited by Mac679 (edited 05-14-2000).]

[JOE-BOO]

HitMan...Wy I use SCARS???

1. I am an idiot and I need simple information.

2. I am a lazy person and I want the simple informion with least amount of effort on my part.

3. I am an impatent person and I want the simple information now.

No hierarchy....no freakin' drooling over the instructor(s)..symbols of status (belts).

The beauty of SCARS is in the execution process and learning what it feels ike an how yourbody reacts when it is struck or torqued a particular way.......You know how when you see someone get hit in the nuts and you said "oooooohhh" and grimaced....well that is how SCARS works....the learnig process is not just learning moves....it is understanding the (involutary) reaction the human form has to contact.

Therefore i spend little time practicing punches/kicks/throws/chokes etc. and more time understanding how to cause reactions that are favorable to my will....it is like being a TEXAS RANGER...."one riot...one Ranger"....you fight smart, not hard.

[PathfinderJr3325]

Mac:

Thought that's what you meant when you said systema http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif As one of my wisest instructors told me, groin shots are like voting; do so early and often http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[HitMan]

11LUZU:
Are there any SCARS training centre
in HK?
If not,what should I do get more inform
and learn it?

[reconsweden]

Having experience with martial arts, heres my opinions:

I have trained a lot of TKD and it is an excellent way to learn balance and kicking technique but needs to be combined with other martial arts to be effective plus it almost needs to be relearned when you are fully geared up for military duty. In Sweden almost all TKD trainers teach hapkido aswell because of the holes(no grappling!) in the art. All martial arts have their pros and cons but since everyone is different built and have different mentalities everyone should seek out the martial arts(yes plural) that fit them best and make sure they learn all aspects of H2H not just parts.
Don´t limit yourselfes to one martial art.
Find what suits you best and focus on it.
Train with people who know other styles and that are differently built than you.

If there was a ultimate H2H system, every mil force around the world would use it, but since people are different that will never be.

BTW: All TKD instructors I know have blackbelts in other martial arts aswell, and my former trainer is also trained in military H2H taught to him by a man by the name of Tamas Weber who has tough both FFL and Swedish ranges H2H. Quite a few persons have underestimated him when learning that he is a TKd instructor and then finding out the hard way that not everthing is what it seems. I know several TKD praticioners who doesn´t limit themselfes to just TKD and they are more than capable to handle themselfes in a fight and I train multiple martial arts because, as I said, no system is ultimate...



------------------
Videre Non Videri

[soup82]

For the guys at Bragg, there used to be a Phillipino (MSG Dino Liboon), whom I believe worked at 18th Abn Corps. I studied Dorubio style escrima under him. Good system, and teaches good flow. For anyone at Bliss, I had a chance to study under Gaudiosa Ruby in here particular style of Kali. First thing she taught me was how to disembowel someone. Kind of got my attention. Really pushes footwork as a basis. Also taught me the most effective escape from chokes I've ever learned. Instinctive (think about it, what is the first thing you do when someone grabs you in a choke from behind? Well, the instinctive thing is the right thing.), fast, effective. I had big Rangers putting good judo choke holds on me (Hadika Jime) in class and it worked. I've had guys grab me in bars when I was pissed, big bouncer guys with arms like legs. It works. Anyways, if you are interested in Escrima, Kali or Arnis de Mano, and are in the Bliss or Bragg area, these are two good contacts, although Dino may have retired.

I've read the new postings on various systems and styles. It doesn't matter what style you use, those are only tools, it takes fighting spirit to use them. There is a Korean era story (possible MOH), about a machinegunner who stayed to provide cover for a retreat. They found him surrounded by bodies, some with machete wounds in them. Little guys nail big guys all the time (i.e, US vs Vietnam, they had the fighting spirit and we didn't. We had the most advanced army in the world and we were beaten, not by technique but because we (as a nation) lacked the gumption to see it through. Tyson has beaten people who are bigger, stronger and probably better technically. Fighting spirit is the first, last and most important part of combat and H to H. Without it, any style in the world is useless, but with it, a technically inferior man can, has and will beat a technically superior man. I'm not talking about jumping up and down, frothing at the mouth like a berserker. Thats just stupidity backed by fear. I'm talking about the steely eyed determination shown by that machine gunner who was out gunned, out manned and held his position.

Cheers, Patrick LaRocque

Sorry to rant, I've been in an abseil harness 300 meters in the air (washing buildings)trying to get my crew to stop being scared. It's not the fall, guys, its the sudden stop.

[JOE-BOO]

HITMAN: you are going to have to goto the website www.scars.com (http://www.scars.com)

A good place to start is the IQS-1 series also the BUDS tapes...the class taught at BUDS is a good one also....get a "strike chart" also

IQS-2 "ground/compresion fighting" will solve all your worries about those with knowledge of Ju-jitsu

[HitMan]

11ZULU:
Could you give me an outline of SCARS?
Told me the Training Method,then I can add it into my training scheme.
Thanks!

[JOE-BOO]

HitMan____

Outside the SCARS principles and techniques of throwing punches..kicks...blah,blah,blah....

The heart IMHO lies in how you train.

1. 2 people for now. Attacker...fighter.
2. Attacker makes first move...fighter makes first sgificant contact.
3. Fighter always wins
4. Attacker must react to striks, hold, maniplations as though full force.
5. DO NOT USE FULL FORCE!!!
6. Concentration for the fighter is on how to manpulate the attackers body to get it where he wants it.
7. Concentration of the Attacker is to react to the stike, holds, manipulations as though they actually happened.
8. Move slow, smooth and deliberate
as in CQB "Fast is slow, slow is smooth"
9. coordinate strikes so that they flow together...ex.
1. heel palm to Attackers groin with right hand while stepping toward and to the left of attacker.
2. Attcker bends at the waist...grabs balls...moves forward on toes...head comes up to expose throat and under side of jaw.
3. Fighter pivots 90 degrees to right...facing side of Attacker...stomps right foot onto attackers left foot nd pushes attacker to fighter's left and attacker's front causing him to fall on his face.

4. Fighter pivots again 90 dgrees on right foot and kicks attacker in the prostate (asshole) with toe of left foot....attacker bows back upwards....
5. fighter leans forward grabing attacker's head which is movng towards him...places index finger and middle finger of left hand into eye sockets of attacker, firmly grasping skull.
6. with over head arm swing the fighter uses a downward strike with right side of right wrist (like stabbing with blade down) and smash nose/nasal area
7. get out of Dodge!!!

10. All three of the afore principles met:
a.Cause Chaos in mind or body: groin shot and prostate kick
b. take balance: stomp to foot and push to ground
c. Break things: smash nose/ nasal area
d. never fight fair.......

Understand that it is how to think not striking skill that saves you ass in such a situation....the groing sho is no good if you stand in front of him and his bending forward drives his head into the bridge of your nose...understand how his body will involuntarily react to your hits....use it to your advatage...if you know where he is going you can meet him there at the hieght of his reaction and strike again maintaining momentum....knowing how you will react if he strikes you can help you to fight through the attack and ruin his process reestablishing your dominance...end it quickly and move on to the next target or get out of there immediately.

Practice slow at first...so you do not screw p you partner...and be both the attacker and fighter equally...you learn alot more about the reactionbeing the Attacker and more about fighting smart as the fighter.

Multiple attackers....strike one person at a time as possible...use him to shield you from the others....do not be defensive...do obvious damage (draw blood, break lbow) so others will become intimidated and thin twice......get the hell out of there.

[JOE-BOO]

HitMan____

Outside the SCARS principles and techniques
of throwing
punches..kicks...blah,blah,blah....

The heart IMHO lies in how you train.

1. 2 people for now. Attacker...fighter.
2. Attacker makes first move...fighter
makes first sgificant contact.
3. Fighter always wins
4. Attacker must react to striks, hold,
maniplations as though full force.
5. DO NOT USE FULL FORCE!!!
6. Concentration for the fighter is on how
to manpulate the attackers body to get it
where he wants it.
7. Concentration of the Attacker is to
react to the stike, holds, manipulations as
though they actually happened.
8. Move slow, smooth and deliberate
as in CQB "Fast is slow, slow is
smooth"
9. coordinate strikes so that they flow
together...ex.
1. heel palm to Attackers groin with
right hand while stepping toward and to the
left of attacker.
2. Attcker bends at the waist...grabs
balls...moves forward on toes...head comes
up to expose throat and under side of jaw.
3. Fighter pivots 90 degrees to
right...facing side of Attacker...stomps
right foot onto attackers left foot nd
pushes attacker to fighter's left and
attacker's front causing him to fall on his
face.

4. Fighter pivots again 90 dgrees
on right foot and kicks attacker in the
prostate (asshole) with toe of left
foot....attacker bows back upwards....
5. fighter leans forward grabing
attacker's head which is movng towards
him...places index finger and middle finger
of left hand into eye sockets of attacker,
firmly grasping skull.
6. with over head arm swing the
fighter uses a downward strike with right
side of right wrist (like stabbing with
blade down) and smash nose/nasal area
7. get out of Dodge!!!

10. All three of the afore principles met:
a.Cause Chaos in mind or body:
groin shot and prostate kick
b. take balance: stomp to foot
and push to ground
c. Break things: smash nose/
nasal area
d. never fight fair.......

Understand that it is how to think not
striking skill that saves you ass in such a
situation....the groing sho is no good if
you stand in front of him and his bending
forward drives his head into the bridge of
your nose...understand how his body will
involuntarily react to your hits....use it
to your advatage...if you know where he is
going you can meet him there at the hieght
of his reaction and strike again maintaining
momentum....knowing how you will react if he
strikes you can help you to fight through
the attack and ruin his process
reestablishing your dominance...end it
quickly and move on to the next target or
get out of there immediately.

Practice slow at first...so you do not screw
up you partner...and be both the attacker and
fighter equally...you learn alot more about
the reaction being the Attacker and more
about fighting smart as the fighter.

Multiple attackers....strike one person at a
time as possible...use him to shield you
from the others....do not be defensive...do
obvious damage (draw blood, break lbow) so
others will become intimidated......get the hell out of there.

I am not an instructor nor do I work for SCARS in anyway!!!!! This s only an interpretation of my training and is not meant to be a lesson of SCARS.

11ZULU

[This message has been edited by 11ZULU (edited 05-17-2000).]

[PathfinderJr3325]

Basically being a mean and nasty bastard who is determined to get out of there alive makes a huge difference too.

[JOE-BOO]

Pathfinder....you summed it up beautifully

[PathfinderJr3325]

Thanks, 11 Zulu. As is posted elsewhere on this site, Sometimes it is entirely appropriate to kill a fly with a sledgehammer.

[maniac]

A friend of mine worked undercover alot and he told me something interesting. He said he was given classes on "brawling" and "streetfighting" so he would not look like an agent when fighting (he is a TaeKwonDo stylist). Just food for thought.

[Kyannis]

Tae Kwon do is taught to U.S. and British troops, so it can't be that bad, but make sure u get a traditional association, not one that teaches sport tkd. At the end of the day, it's surviving that matters, not points(or looking good).

If your looking for ninjitsu, Togakure-ryu is good for unarmed work,(thats what most westerners want, unarmed fighting in a black suit), real/traditional ninjitsu is never unarmed, and running away comes before h2h combat. I you want traditional ninjutsu, Fuma-ryu has proved it's self very good.

At the end of the day, the training is only as good as the instructor.

[Repp]

Isn't there this great motto, can't remember from whom.

"A CQC session without someone hurt is worthless"

just thought I mention

Repp

[Ranger002]

Good Posts Guys,

It does'nt matter what "style" you use.Thats all bullshit. The only thing that matters is sincerity. The sincerity of your teacher and your desire to learn. Pick something and STICK WITH IT. If you are very good at what you do then that's it. When confronted with a serious situation if you have trained well you may survive... at the very least you will kill the guy that killed you. The purpose of all most all the Martial Arts is to DEVELOP YOUR SPIRIT. If you focus on that and train as hard as you can amazing things will happen to you and almost none of them involve killing. Good Luck.
William Hazen

[Repp]

Right!

No one of the guys whoose asses I kicked asked: "Is this Kung.Fu or Karate?"

Repp

[XS]

That is crap! The system is one of the critical factors in the situation! It is what gives you the means to fight, without which you are dead.

------------------
"The ground is my ocean, I am the shark and most people don't even know how to swim."

RCJ Machado

http://pub14.ezboard.com/bwarandpolitics

[Repp]

What I meant was, that it depends on the fighter, not the style. It is bull to think that Kung Fu is superior to Tae Kwon Do, it depends on how good YOU are. The systems are ways to go, but you have to go them.

http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif merry christmas

Repp

[XS]

If you spent an equal ammount of time and effort on two different arts, the difference in your fighting ability will be due to the effectiveness of each of the systems. Each system has its pro's and con's, and the ballance of these will result in one system being better than another.

The system matters!

------------------
"The ground is my ocean, I am the shark and most people don't even know how to swim."

RCJ Machado

http://pub14.ezboard.com/bwarandpolitics

[neoprogressivedoraemon]

Hello,man.
If somebody know SCARS of SAFTA.
Please tell me more,I just interesting in it:D .
Hey,somebody know which kinds of martial art can break enemy's
bones fastest in standind positions or ground positions,please tell me.
I need to learn.:D
Thank you very much.
:D

[TPS]

Isn't there this great motto, can't remember from whom.

"A CQC session without someone hurt is worthless"



Don't know who said it, but it sounds pretty silly to me. You won't have many sparring partners left after a while. :(

I hesitate to post on topics like this because if there's one thing I've learned it's that people tend to have an almost religious fanaticism when arguing the various merits of their personal pet martial arts.

I tend to agree with William Hazen: "Pick something and stick with it". I also believe it's important to be well rounded and avoid the impractical. So many people get so wrapped around the axle with the whole "my kung fu is stronger than your kung fu" argument that it gets a little silly. It reminds me of the endlessly resurrected 9mm vs .45 debate, except there’s even more hype and misinformation thrown in.

We all strive for realism in training, right? IMHO the so-called "sport" MAs aren't as bad as some of the trash talkers would have you believe. I don’t buy this whole "too deadly for competition" BS argument. Do you really believe your testicle biting, eye gouging, and secret Dim Mak technique are going to swing the tide of battle radically in your favor? Guys have had their limbs snapped in competitions and hardly even realized it until the ref points it out and plenty of people have been shot multiple times and continued to fight. Sorry, there is no magic death ray or mystical "rip your still-beating heart out of your chest" technique. :rolleyes:

The rules in MA competitions are there to protect you and your partner so that you can continue to train. Mutual welfare and benefit. It sounds really macho to injure people during practice, but really it’s just irresponsible at best and malicious at worst. There are plenty of opportunities for injury during the course of normal training.

With that said, I also agree with those that say that competitions are not combat, that combat has no rules. You could also argue that the best way to train for war, is to wage war.

I am all for training really hard, and yes, I think that some MA’s train harder and more realistically than others, but the sentiment behind the quote seemed to reflect an attitude that I find distasteful.

There is a lot of BS out there. Let the buyer beware.

Tom (former USMC 8552)

[fish78]

Originally posted by neoprogressivedoraemon
Hello,man.
If somebody know SCARS of SAFTA.
Please tell me more,I just interesting in it:D .
Hey,somebody know which kinds of martial art can break enemy's
bones fastest in standind positions or ground positions,please tell me.
I need to learn.:D
Thank you very much.
:D

Baseball bat qwaun do !
Seriously dude, its the man not the style.

[NWPTrainer]

Originally posted by fish78


Baseball bat qwaun do !
Seriously dude, its the man not the style.

Personally I was always fond of broken bottle kung-fu and barroom brawl jujitsu.

I have to agree with this though. Although I am a student of Kuntao silat and have done some Muay Thai and JKD work, as well as a modicum of BJJ work, I am the grandson and son of former Detroit Narcotics cops. My grandad was working the bike gangs back when they thought nothing of overthrowing a town and raping everybody. He's seventy and I'd still put money on him against anybody in a real world situation. His philosiphy was that a strong right combined with a good choke hold and aggressiveness were sufficient. My experiences and observations tend to support his belief.

[TPS]

Personally I was always fond of broken bottle kung-fu and barroom brawl jujitsu.


Ching Ching Pow and Gun-Fu work really well, too.

[NWPTrainer]

I'm pretty much an advocate of Gun-Fu as well...
I've got a question fpor any of ya'll out there. One of the classes we offer in my gym here are "self-defense" classes. The basic class is what you'd expect...Hit'em and run like a scared bunny...
But the advanced class is just that... I work them through all the ranges and with some minor weapons skills, mostly defensive baton and knife. I need to get a protective suit for my instructors...I really wanted one of the old FIST gear ones, or the Redman suit that I think CENTURY used to produce. Does anyone know where I can locate these, or a suitable facsimile thereof?
Any help is appreciated...

[neoprogressivedoraemon]

Hello again,my friends.
Actually,I'm interesting in SCARS too.
Look like it's combination of various kinds of powerful military martial arts.
Like SAFTA + Gracie Ju jitsu + Kravmaga + Jeet Kundo + umm,I forgot but look like they train in only groups or units like Navy SEALS team 6th ,NATO special forces and some groups of U.S. special forces or something like that.:eek:
Just Kravmaga & Gracie Ju Jitsu in my opinions are very very strong.
But SCARS add more,what the fantastic technique.
Very very strong!!!!
Actually,if I'm lucky,I would like to request more training from somebody who know SCARS too.
May be I'll work voluntory at Bosnia or somewhere and may be I'll have new friends there who can teach me SCARS,I hope.
But nobody send me there.:(
By the way,I try to figure at out,HOW I CAN GO TO BOSNIA????
:mad:
If anybody have interactives or pictures about SCARS,please tell me I'm very very appreciate.

[Gunnergetyah]

Well the art ive been studying is a modified and updtaed form of Shaolin Kempo, which actually takes in different things from well...pretty much almost every singl martial art taught, for example our grappling techniques are incorperations of Akiedo plus some Judo and thats just grappling, i'll see if I can find a list of all arts incorperated but theres one thing:

Tae Kwon do is taught to U.S. and British troops, so it can't be that bad,

Ive read a few things where even though it's known for it's kicks (which hurt like hell when they make contact with your head) its not known for having hand or grapling techniques which one would need in a realistic fighting situation. My friend and I spar regularly and we both started out in our respective arts at the same time, well we were in our intermediate level (Me as a Blue belt him as a Green, which is the same level) and of course he started with the usual high and low kicks keeping me at a distance, all I needed was to get in close, even with ime to react he still dident know what to do, and when I took him down and immediatly started going at him he had no idea what to do. and wasent Tae Kwon Do rejected from the Olympics before? I coulda swore I heard that. Anyway just by things I learned and by personal experience ive found Tae Kwon Do is pretty....but so is a flower, and a flower aint gonna do much to a Tiger.

By the way if you wnat to know a little more bout my art check out the site:www.ussd.com (http://www.ussd.com)

[neoprogressivedoraemon]

Baseball bat qwan do.umm:)
Very very interesting.
I like that.:D
And 11ZULU,my master.
Please teach me SCARS,please.
Do you have any FLASH websites about SCARS technique????
About movable posting,actually,if I have money,I'll buy completely 6 VCD but I don't have any income unfortuantely.:(
By the way,if you can teach me,I'll very very appreciate.:D
I trained some basic of Kravmaga,not too deep but it's ok and I have very very good time while trained.:D
And basic grapling like ground submissions but not too deep again.:D
I am not have enough time but I really really enjoyed & happy while trained.
But SCARS is very very new to me.
And I just want to do some about body fitting.
Look like I'm lacking of play sport because I seriously about my hobby,and may be can be my career in future.
And to be honestly,I am not atheletic guy,I don't like playing sport,but I like enjoy & exciting & look like SCARS is everything I'm looking for.
And anybody know about knife fighting with throwing????
Look like is Russia special force skills.
They can throw enemies while carrying knife in hand(s).
Throw but never use fingers for grapling???
Sound interesting????
I think if I can have joint-operations with Russia special force,I'll ask them some about that.:D

[Ranger002]

Again young man....

Find something and stick with it. Don't believe the bullshit posted here about some systems being better than others thats all hype. What is important is that you find something that you will give 100 per cent effort to. I have been training in the Martial Arts since I was a boy in one "form" or another and what I have found is that it's real purpose is to polish one's charector. Those folks who are caught up in technique over spirit have allot of growing up yet to do. A SINCERE PRACTICIONER of any Martial Art pays no mind to what they know or if he or she is "better" or a "killer." It shows in the way they approach life and conduct themselves. I am sick and tired of all these psuedo experts and thier systems taking young folks like you for your money...A true follower of BUDO pays no mind to this... they just continue to practice.

William Hazen

[Gunnergetyah]

Well William you have to rememebr that even though us who are in martial arts can understand what you are saying, you must also understand that we all have our own reasons for joining up, I personally did it for fitness and for knowledge of self-defense, its these things which are already in your mindset when you start, and even though the entire spirit and history and culture of the art your in also ecompasses you, those simple ideals you had first entering will not go out of your mind or be replaced for a very long time, whoever put you in martial arts as a boy did it because they had knowledge of what effect it would have on your young mind, not your body and of course as in your last post, it shows.

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by Gunnergetyah
Well William you have to rememebr that even though us who are in martial arts can understand what you are saying, you must also understand that we all have our own reasons for joining up, I personally did it for fitness and for knowledge of self-defense, its these things which are already in your mindset when you start, and even though the entire spirit and history and culture of the art your in also ecompasses you, those simple ideals you had first entering will not go out of your mind or be replaced for a very long time, whoever put you in martial arts as a boy did it because they had knowledge of what effect it would have on your young mind, not your body and of course as in your last post, it shows.

Well I thought when I joined that the reason I wanted to take Martial Arts was to hurt someone before they hurt me and when it comes right down to it thats what all the real Arts teach (EXCEPT Aikido)...This babble about which technique is more effective is like dudes arguing about who makes a better car. All cars are designed to do the same thing getting you from point A to point B...If the car's owner is caught up in "My car tell's folks I am a badass, or cool, or to get chicks". Well that shows the immaturity of the Car Owner not the CAR. My FIRST teacher...taught me what the Martial Arts are all about...I think everyone goes through a "who drives the coolest car phase" While those of who have driven a while know it's not about the car...it's about the trip and enjoying the journey...I am lucky I learned this first... all real Senseis,Masters and Sifus could give a shit about technique... EXCEPT as a vehicle to improve YOUR charactor and polish YOUR spirit.

William Hazen

[fish78]

RangerHazen,

You well may be correct about what you say about martial arts, but there are some of us who figure that our character and spirit are just fine. I train close combat for one and only one reason: that if attacked, I will be capable of doing serious bodily harm to my assailant. I purposely eschew any of the traditional arts because of all the sifu, sensei, bow ,wear pajamas BS. If you take solace in the spiritual aspects of martial arts, its OK with me, just don't insist that those of us who don't go in for the mystical experience don't get it. We do, we are just looking for something different than you are.
fish

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by fish78
RangerHazen,

You well may be correct about what you say about martial arts, but there are some of us who figure that our character and spirit are just fine. I train close combat for one and only one reason: that if attacked, I will be capable of doing serious bodily harm to my assailant. I purposely eschew any of the traditional arts because of all the sifu, sensei, bow ,wear pajamas BS. If you take solace in the spiritual aspects of martial arts, its OK with me, just don't insist that those of us who don't go in for the mystical experience don't get it. We do, we are just looking for something different than you are.
fish

FISH old buddy very CAREFULLY reread my last post and then tell me where we differ...Don't be so insecure about your "technique" as I never insisted on anything other than choosing and sticking with a practice and giving it a 100% effort. The Arts have been around allot longer than Navy Seals, the web, and marketing. When a man exspouses on the mystical aspect of the martial arts he is just as full of shit as if claiming he was a trained killer (it's just another brand of car)....The only proof of a Man's Spirit is in his actions...I've put many a "mystic" into the mat face first...Nuff Said

BEEN THERE DONE THAT

William Hazen

[fish78]

Bill, it was really the post before the last that got me a bit rankled. Where we depart is on the spiritual aspect of martial arts. I choose to derive my spititual enlightment from the Bible, Capitalism, and the US Constitution. I have never had a need to question my character. I don't need a martial art to define or expose it. I agree that our character is exposed by our actions. I do have a need to be able to better defend my person, property and family. My criteria for effective self defense system: capable of being learned quickly, make effective use of gross motor skills, devestatingly effective, repeatable and most of all not require constant training. I don't care about techniques, in that we agree, nor do I care about being cool,(much too old and fat for that) The stuff I like happens to have evolved from juijitsu, but it is not juijitsu as currently practiced; I could care less. The suff I like is predicated on an offensive mindset that encourages a preemptive first strike, almost all of the so called techiques are considered fouls in the martial art world. My need set excludes most martial arts. Don't get me wrong, if you enjoy the journey that is fine, but to me it is just like learning any other skill and is filed away in the recesses of my mind until needed.

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by fish78
Bill, it was really the post before the last that got me a bit rankled. Where we depart is on the spiritual aspect of martial arts. I choose to derive my spititual enlightment from the Bible, Capitalism, and the US Constitution. I have never had a need to question my character. I don't need a martial art to define or expose it. I agree that our character is exposed by our actions. I do have a need to be able to better defend my person, property and family. My criteria for effective self defense system: capable of being learned quickly, make effective use of gross motor skills, devestatingly effective, repeatable and most of all not require constant training. I don't care about techniques, in that we agree, nor do I care about being cool,(much too old and fat for that) The stuff I like happens to have evolved from juijitsu, but it is not juijitsu as currently practiced; I could care less. The suff I like is predicated on an offensive mindset that encourages a preemptive first strike, almost all of the so called techiques are considered fouls in the martial art world. My need set excludes most martial arts. Don't get me wrong, if you enjoy the journey that is fine, but to me it is just like learning any other skill and is filed away in the recesses of my mind until needed.

Understood bro...I am not talking about it as a "religion" there are many Christians who are excellent Martial Artists so please don't take offense. It comes down to training...By the way most folks have no idea how effective thier art is until they smack someone and that includes Aikido.

William Hazen

[fish78]

Roger that,
I tried to PM you, but alas, i am an idiot and sent it to myself! I didn't mean to come across so strong, but there was someting (may well be in my reading) that came across as just a bit preachy. I am fifty yrs old and have had both a stroke and a heart attack. I am way to old tp set off on a quest for enlightenment! I did find it necessry to find an effective means of self defense...I have tasted more techniques than I care to remember. I'll try the PM thing again.

[Abnbravo4]

Ok I read some of this thread and will include my two cents for whats its worth. I have to disagree with my bro and agree with fish.

I wanted to learn the arts because I wanted to have an edge in a street fight. I picked BBJ because I did'nt want to pray to some old guy who was around long before I was, and after looking at the different styles it seemed to be the best one for kicking somes ass. After doing BBJ for the last 8 years I still feel the same, I didnt want to get into the "arts" I wanted to get into the combat and learn what it takes to hurt some one. Now I dont go looking for fights and dont really discuss what I do outside the dojo, but I know if confronted I would put a real hurting on someone if I had too, thats whats its all about for me.

Bill, I drive a new corvette and you drive an old pinto, yeah they are both cars, but when getting from point A to point B not only do I get there faster but I look alot better doing it ....LOL

Aikido is for girls.

[CTA]

The Ultimate Fighting Championship: "Hazen Brothers Square Off For The Fight Of The Century!" Hey, there is nothing like a good sibling fight and ensuing ass kicking. My money is on Hazen! Ha ha ha ha:D

Seriously, interesting thread and I have picked up a few tidbits of good Intel. I was at the TKD studio last night for my nephew's class, he's six, and it was fun to watch. Plus, it is great discipline for a tyke that age!

Although, I thought it was funny when the instructor said to one of the student's, "How are you gonna fight on the ground?" Another instructor, "Your kicks are too low," or "This isn't wrestling." All of their feedback was directed at tournament fighting.

Regardless, I think all MA's are valid and worthwhile! Certain ones are well suited for one, but not for another. Also, I tend to agree with both of the Hazen Bro's and Fish. Although, I think I am a little of both. Kick ass period (i.e. take the man down until he can do you no more harm), but I also like the spiritual aspects of certain arts too.

CTA Out

P.S. Brothers Hazen, I'm sure Socnet regulars would put up a few duckets to the winner of your sparring match providing we can watch the melee.;)

[fish78]

CTA,
In about eigth grade they gave us a form to complete stating what we thought we might want to do in later life...we had one kid who said he either wanted to be a poet or a professional wrestler...was that you? Ha Ha Ha

[CTA]

Nah…. Just a goofball. Never could get that iambic pentameter thingy down – and this is from an English major. Shit, I don’t even rate a poet/warrior like Weigel. Ha ha ha! I don’t care what he thinks, that fucker can write.

CTA out

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by Abnbravo4
Ok I read some of this thread and will include my two cents for whats its worth. I have to disagree with my bro and agree with fish.

I wanted to learn the arts because I wanted to have an edge in a street fight. I picked BBJ because I did'nt want to pray to some old guy who was around long before I was, and after looking at the different styles it seemed to be the best one for kicking somes ass. After doing BBJ for the last 8 years I still feel the same, I didnt want to get into the "arts" I wanted to get into the combat and learn what it takes to hurt some one. Now I dont go looking for fights and dont really discuss what I do outside the dojo, but I know if confronted I would put a real hurting on someone if I had too, thats whats its all about for me.

Bill, I drive a new corvette and you drive an old pinto, yeah they are both cars, but when getting from point A to point B not only do I get there faster but I look alot better doing it ....LOL

Aikido is for girls.

Yaaawn. uuuhhh sure Bob....You always be two things... my little brother and one step behind me :-) I have all the respect in the world for BBJ but losing to girls can be a bit embarrasing eh Bob LOL Someday you and Fish will get a clue...
William Hazen

You may "drive" a vette but the bank don't own my "pinto" LOL NUFF SAID

[Abnbravo4]

Sorry bro sounds like I hit a nerve, remind to give you a hug next time I see you...LOL....everything gonna be alright.

The Ultimate Fighting Championship: "Hazen Brothers Square Off For The Fight Of The Century!" Hey, there is nothing like a good sibling fight and ensuing ass kicking. My money is on Hazen! Ha ha ha ha

Yeah its all in fun...in the real world I will always get my brothers back even if I had to fly out on a moments notice to do so..as I am sure he would for me.

Lova ya Bro

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by Abnbravo4
Sorry bro sounds like I hit a nerve, remind to give you a hug next time I see you...LOL....everything gonna be alright.

The Ultimate Fighting Championship: "Hazen Brothers Square Off For The Fight Of The Century!" Hey, there is nothing like a good sibling fight and ensuing ass kicking. My money is on Hazen! Ha ha ha ha

Yeah its all in fun...in the real world I will always get my brothers back even if I had to fly out on a moments notice to do so..as I am sure he would for me.

Lova ya Bro

Yeeeaaaah I got your back BIG TIME. I love you and your family very much too. And if you can beat our little sister Laura in a UFC qualifying round then maybe I will let yet spar wid da Champ:p

William Hazen Your Big Bro

Give my love to Robin and the kids and stay safe this holiday xxoo

[fish78]

Damn,
You Hazrens must have one hell of a family reunion!
I love it!
Whichever of you is in the Atl area...give me a hollar, the beer is on me...Malibu Bill Perier or water de Jour is OK too...Seriously if yo come to visit "yo Bro"
, call me, I'be there. Buying!
fish

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by fish78
Damn,
You Hazrens must have one hell of a family reunion!
I love it!
Whichever of you is in the Atl area...give me a hollar, the beer is on me...Malibu Bill Perier or water de Jour is OK too...Seriously if yo come to visit "yo Bro"
, call me, I'be there. Buying!
fish

You got it bro Fish...Welcome to the family!

William Hazen

[CTA]

Paybacks are a bitch. Got to love a little ribbing every now and then. Ha ha ha! :D Come from a decent size family too. I'm the oldest, then two bros (I'm 6'4"/230, 6'2"/210, 6'7"/230 but still young and growing) and then baby sis - the angel of the group, never in any trouble. :mad: Needless to say, we get a little rough and break shit every now and then from horsing around. Drives my mom crazy.

Unfortunately, she can box her ass off so you always need to be aware of incoming. Ha, ha, ha! Take it easy or any other way you can get it. And remember, Blood is thicker than water.:D

Cheers!

CTA

[NWPTrainer]

Originally posted by Jack Ryan
To Slater:

I agree with 99% of what you said. I saw that you highly recommended Brazilian/Gracie jujitsu. It's is definitly a great art, but it does have one flaw. Gracie jujitsu practioners love to get their opponents on the ground and then apply some type of arm,leg,or wrist lock. Works great when your fighting one on one, but the art lacks when it comes to defending yourself against multiple attackers. Don't get me wrong I think it is defenitly a great art, especially for one on one. If I had the time I would mix aikido, shotokan, and gracie jujitsu. Anyone who is able to master these three arts is not someone you want mess with.

As far as TKD it is pretty much worthless as far as self-defense. Practioners trained in TKD would have a very difficult time with someone well versed in either shotokan or gracie jujitsu or any other traditional japanese arts.

As you say, just my .02 cents!

Not to be an asshole naysayer, but your post isa not entirely correct....BJJ fighters do not ALWAYS advocate going to the ground. They recognize that it would be suicide in a multiple aggressor scenario. They do advocate standup grappling, knees, elbows, and headbutts in that scenario. There biggest thing in that case is that in the real world, as often as not its not a matter of choice if you go to the groun=d or not...it just happens that way....
AS far as TKD goes....My "baby" MA was Songham TKD, and I agree that TKD as taught in this country is relatively wothless unless heavily modified (and then is it still TKD?) What most TKD people don't realize is that The Korean General who developed TKD did so after being a Japanese POW in WW2, and it is almost entirely based on Shotokan, rather than Tae Kyon, Hapkido, or Hwarang-Do. All of these influenced him, but he was mostly a SHotokan guy that wanted to develop something to give Koreans back their national pride.
On the other hand....ever watch ROK marines practice TKD? My money, and their experience, says it CAN be a very effective martial art....but my real opinion on H2H for US soldiers is below.

[NWPTrainer]

Okay, not that anyone asked, but here's my final thoughts on this subject, and I'd love some feedback from guys that are still in....

I trained in TKD and Silat in high school. AS an adult I've trained in muay Thai and BJJ, and I've always been pretty good at the systems I study. What I learned from day one of TKD in the ninth grade though, is that for traditional martial arts to be effective in the real world-whether its a mountainside in Afghanistan or behind the Chickasaw Club, you have to be at a relatively advanced level.
The problem with this, whether you're at Regiment, Group, the Teams, etc, is that there are so many other vital skills on the METL that you don't have time to teach privates to an advanced level in a traditional martial art. Okay, so in an ideal world, instead of buying new computer or video games every payday, these kids would be at their local black belt factory and training on their own. Yeah right.....Its not a lack of motivation, but hell when you've got that little bit ogf free time, do you really want to think abouyt work? I don't...
So instead it falls on the SLs and TLs to provide this critical training. (and I do believe its critical....if war will always come down to a motivated infantryman standing on a piece of ground saying "This is ours!" It will....weapons malfunction.)
My concept is this. You teach the privates the rudiments of boxing- basic punches, and defenses, and the basics of BJJ, Sambo, or another groundfighting skill, whatever, as long as they've got the basics.
The idea is not to make them black belts, but to give them a fundamental grasp of the basic principles. Then you take them out to the sawdust pit. Right next to it you drive some 4x4 posts in a square about 4'x4' into the ground. Wrap em in some padding, and throw some ropes around to make a ring. You want a boxing ring only smaller, so the guys are forced to be aggressive.
You strap em into headgear and 16 oz boxing gloves and tell em to go at it. "okay Ranger Joey and Ranger Snuffy...You've got thirty seconds, andd somebody better be on the ground...GO!"
So twice a week-or more- you spend 45 minutes or so reviewing the basic skills of both the standup and grappling elements, then you spend 30 minutes more in round robin type sparring and submission wrestling matches.
Sure, most people will say, we don't have time for that....Bullshit. How many times a week are the privates sitting in their barracks room pretending to read their Ranger Handbooks? Okay, yeah, Initially you actually read it, but after two or three months? Everyone of you former Battboys know they're spending that time sleeping instead of reading....So, when you're in Garrison, the squad leader, or Team leader, or tabbed E4s (thats what they're there for) takes em out and teaches em this course. It's an effective way to teach privates a fundamental warrior skill, as well as instilling them with warrior spirit or killer instinct, or the spirit of the bAyonet (whichever term you prefer.)
Besides you don't go to the 75th cause you want to sit on the couch all day. You want to be one of the most elite warriors on the planet. Combatives training builds self-confidence, personal courage, esprit de corps, and stresses the body in ways regular PT doesn't.
You take that 135 lb private that falls out on every other roadmarch, barely passes his APFT, etc, and start teaching him H2H, and see if he doesn't start trying to live up to his new "badass" self-image.
Anyway, thats my $0.02 rant for the week....I'm getting into my RBA now to help protect from some of the small arms fire I expect will be shortly forthcoming....

[Daredevil]

BJJ isn't automatically a victory these days.

When it first hit the scene it was all the rage. Now that more people are familiar with it, they've been finding weaknesses.

It also has to do with the skill level of the user. I'm not talking about going up against Rickson Gracie here, just your average BJJ guy.

Sambo practitioners have been executing so many effective leg locks against BJJ practioners in grappling competitions that all but the most basic of leg locks aren't allowed now in many BJJ events. That's one way to win, change the rules. My youngest brother just competed in a BJJ event in Bayonne, NJ (helluva drive but he took second in his weight class, which was 100 - 114.9, for the white belt division) and the only leg lock allowed was the basic straight leg lock. To him that was a disadvantage because he practices leg locks quite a bit.

A lot of your better Shootfighters and MMA competitors learn BJJ, but the really good ones put in some healthy doses of Sambo and other things like Catchascatchcan (as Eric Paulson does). That can make the difference between being able to survive on the ground and being able to dominate on the ground.

[NWPTrainer]

My intent wasn't to proclaim BJJ the end-all, be-all of groundfighting. I simply meant that you needed at least a basic intro to groundfighting if it was going to be effective all around for SOF troops. I mentioned BJJ because that is what I've trained in predominantly for groundfighting, and the new FM on it, FM3-25.150 would be a simple beginning point for training. Actually the basic groundfighting chapter is an excellent introduction to groundfighting for people with no background in it at all...no you won't win the UFC or Vale Tudo with it, but how many starving Afghanis are practicing Sambo. (Yeah I know, most of the 'stans have a traditional wrestiling art...Let's not take my concept to the point where you have to know the secrets of every martial art in the world.) The idea is not to pull a CHuck Norris or Royce Gracie on the bad guy...It's to keep him from killing you long enough for your ranger buddy to stick his ass with a bayonet, or slap him into flexicuffs...

[Daredevil]

My comments weren't directed at you per se. I know that's what you meant. It was more just general musings on my end.

I wouldn't want to go up against the Afghani Sambo Team.

[fish78]

See the August issue of "Black Belt" magazine, there is an article on Carl Cestari and the WWII methods of Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, Nelson et al...it should open your eyes to what really works.

[Daredevil]

I kinda value this guy's opinion:

http://www.tridentacademy.org

[fish78]

DD, There is no doubt that Frank Cucci was a good operator and a good martial artist. The issue is that he is trying to make a living using his skill to teac others...nothing wrong with that...the problem arises when you realize there is no way to make a living teaching the WWII methods because they are few in number and simple to learn. See the post from Tony B from another board.

19 Pages/ 6 Techniques
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even though this topic was discussed under other threads I thought these hard learned lessons from WWII deserved it's own thread. For the record the H2H manual at the beginning of WWII was 315 pages (thanx Ralph). At the end of the war it was 19 pages (thanx again Ralph). Most of the pages were taken up by describing each of the six techniques in detail (thanx Carl). This was not done by a commitee. It was done by our grandfathers, fathers, uncles, and friends (thank you all!). These incredible men unselfishly reported back to the states what worked and didn't work. As you can imagine men died because of some bullshit technique. The survivors made sure that the bullshit techniques were no longer taught so the next guy would not get killed. What better proving ground do we need than the crucible of WWII? Why can't we learn from past mistakes? These guy's died for you and me. Why do people try to "reinvent the wheel"? The result of this are overly complex SYSTEMS. So were back to square one (315 pages). In my humble opinion a large part of the problem stems from money/ego or ego /money. How can you make money with a "system" that has only 6 techniques? How can you get your ego stroked with a "system" that has only 6 techniques? 19 Pages/ 6 Techniques says it all. End of story.

Tony B.

[Daredevil]

My only comment regarding things like Sykes-Fairbairn training methods and other military oriented Martial Arts programs is this: while they all stress simplicity and functionality they only seem to work well against an untrained enemy. A properly trained and conditioned fighter will still beat them.

I'm going to send a PM to explain what I mean.

[fish78]

Roger that.

[Charlie Cloud]

I've had an interest in Hwa Rang Do since the 1970's but never pursued it. (http://www.hwarangdo.com/) I like the sound of their philosophy and they seem to have left the "martial" in martial arts. Anyone here have any input on Joo Bang Lee and/or Hwa Rang Do, other than their published policies/positions?

[fish78]

Charlie,
Isn't that the basis for what the late Mike Echanis advocated?

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by Charlie Cloud
I've had an interest in Hwa Rang Do since the 1970's but never pursued it. (http://www.hwarangdo.com/) I like the sound of their philosophy and they seem to have left the "martial" in martial arts. Anyone here have any input on Joo Bang Lee and/or Hwa Rang Do, other than their published policies/positions?

Joo Bang Lee was a fairly high-ranked Hapkido stylist who decided to found his own style. (How unique!) He usurped the name of the Korean counterparts to the Samurai,the Hwarang-whatever. His claims of learning the secret art in a monastery, and thousand year lineage, etc, are indeed laughable.

Mike Echanis actually had very minimal training in Hwarang-Do. Randy Wanner, one of Lee's top students, trained him for a period of weeks or months. He was "promoted" to black belt rank, because Joo Bang Lee felt that this Viet-Nam vet was his "in" to teaching contracts with elite military units. He was posthumously promoted to 3rd Dan after his death, to give him more credibility and help book sales.

[fish78]

Originally posted by Daredevil


Joo Bang Lee was a fairly high-ranked Hapkido stylist who decided to found his own style. (How unique!) He usurped the name of the Korean counterparts to the Samurai,the Hwarang-whatever. His claims of learning the secret art in a monastery, and thousand year lineage, etc, are indeed laughable.

Mike Echanis actually had very minimal training in Hwarang-Do. Randy Wanner, one of Lee's top students, trained him for a period of weeks or months. He was "promoted" to black belt rank, because Joo Bang Lee felt that this Viet-Nam vet was his "in" to teaching contracts with elite military units. He was posthumously promoted to 3rd Dan after his death, to give him more credibility and help book sales.

That was kind of the point I was trying to make.

[Daredevil]

Ahh, I see.

[dragonrain]

Nobody ever mentions Kenpo, I thought it was very effective when I trained in highschool. I took some Wing Chung for a while from Miller up here in WA. It was modified into a more effictive form for the streets, he also had the sence not to call it JKD, about 90% of the people that claim to teach JKD should shut there freakin pie holes and listen to what Bruce was trying to say when he was creating the style, thats NOT A FREAKIN STYLE. I love watching all those guys that fight in UFC and Pride becuase some of those fighters oppitamise at least in physical terms what Bruce was talking about. But I digress

On a Side note, I think Mr. Hazen ( I have no Idea why I used MR.) should be in the octagon, but he should fight as DISCO HAZEN Scurge of 2nd Batt. and wear platform shoes and bell bottoms and whoop ass all over the place. That would make the 34.99 I spend in Payperview worth it every time. ;)

enough rambling on my part.

Case
DR

[Charlie Cloud]

Originally posted by Daredevil


Education snipped

Last I heard about it/them was back in the 70's in an SOF article (pictures of Echanis getting run over by a jeep, running needles through his neck and swinging buckets of water off the needle, etc.) where Echanis discussed the military and political philosophy. I then, recently, stopped by their web site where my interest was rekinkled and thought I'd ask you all about it.

I am honored by the education you have given me. Never heard any of that before but then I'm out of the loop, so to speak.

[Ranger002]

Originally posted by dragonrain
Nobody ever mentions Kenpo, I thought it was very effective when I trained in highschool. I took some Wing Chung for a while from Miller up here in WA. It was modified into a more effictive form for the streets, he also had the sence not to call it JKD, about 90% of the people that claim to teach JKD should shut there freakin pie holes and listen to what Bruce was trying to say when he was creating the style, thats NOT A FREAKIN STYLE. I love watching all those guys that fight in UFC and Pride becuase some of those fighters oppitamise at least in physical terms what Bruce was talking about. But I digress

On a Side note, I think Mr. Hazen ( I have no Idea why I used MR.) should be in the octagon, but he should fight as DISCO HAZEN Scurge of 2nd Batt. and wear platform shoes and bell bottoms and whoop ass all over the place. That would make the 34.99 I spend in Payperview worth it every time. ;)

enough rambling on my part.

Case
DR

Only If I get to wear my wide lapel polyester Travolta Combat Hotpants! I shudder to think what kind of Atemi platform shoes could do to a manly man in the Octagon. By the way I love the Kenpo style. Good Atemi techniques

William Hazen NOT MR!

[fish78]

Casey, and Hazen,
The two of you have commited a clear "sharing" violation...that is way more than I need to know!:D Hazen, my offer stands to buy you a designer water if you ever get to GA...

[HAN2HANMAN]

I would like to say this is an incredible forum first of all. Getting in to a good H2H forum where the possibility of real instructors are and not a bunch of Bruce Lee Wannabes is more than appreciated on my part. This thread took quite a while to read...lol..
There has been much dicussion on styles and techniques. I think having a traditional background like my self is great but not necessary. There are many wonderfull systems to learn and each have some great techniques and yes we all get biased to those things we love or like its human nature but todays combat evolvement has leaned away from the issues of many of the traditional dojos as we all know.
The demographics of society has dictated that.
No one has the time to live in the studio I can tell you that many just dont the time to train so we must give people quick efffective solutions to confrontation. Whether it is in a lethal or non lethal aspect.
Having said that let me say this as well. There have been many fly by night H2H instructors who have damaged the image as well. Many have made claims to have been associated with certain military or law enforcement groups or certain instructors and its just not so. So where does that leave a new student who is looking to learn. Well check the instructor out if at all possible. Every one has a background or linage either civillian or military. Check the organizations that they represent or the claims that they make.
So as always there is just a hand full of HardCore students and intructors willing to share there knowledge. Seek them out and go from there. I read somewhere in this thread that its the man or woman that makes the difference not the style...so true ..so true..

Again thanks for the great forum looking forward to further postings and I salute you all.

[Abnbravo4]

Originally posted by dragonrain


On a Side note, I think Mr. Hazen ( I have no Idea why I used MR.) should be in the octagon, but he should fight as DISCO HAZEN Scurge of 2nd Batt. and wear platform shoes and bell bottoms and whoop ass all over the place. That would make the 34.99 I spend in Payperview worth it every time. ;)

enough rambling on my part.

Case
DR

That is some funning shit......My bro in the the ring hahahaha, I could see it now Mr Makido in his corner and a little old fat bald guy on the back of his uniform.....to funny, sorry bro had to have a laugh at your expense.


Fish78 I am in ATL GA and will take you up on a Beverage, its better for the Hazen image if you get to meet the younger wiser one.Please feel free to give me a call 678-406-5452

[fish78]

Hazen the younger,
I live in Duluth...they don't let me leave...I will give you a call and the beverage is on me, but you must come to my AO...its not ego...just the law...404-697-2550 Fatter, but maybe not as bald as your disco brother. This is the week of the 4th and i am in school next week, but lets touch base and figur something out...BTW, Kristen can testify as to just how fat I am!
fish