Unsure where to put this...

[ASByron]

I hope I am not out of line putting this post here, but I've seen a lot of good advice on this site and I wanted to see more of it considering I'm a few days away from swearing in. If I have put this where it doesn't belong, let me know and I will delete it.

I've been going back and forth with my recruiter and I have gone completely backwards on what I thought I would be doing a year from now. I had originally thought I would be going the OCS route and putting MI at the top of my wish list. Based on threads I have read both here and elsewhere, I have come to believe that going OCS would leave me with a craps shoot on where I would land as far as an MOS goes. So I have more or less decided to go the enlisted route, with what my recruiter (based on my degree, resume, and ASVAB scores, 120+ in very field) has guaranteed as a 97B contract. I want MI, and counterintelligence has always been a dream.

My dilemma is whether or not to go for the butterbar or go with what my recruiter is telling me is more likely to get me an MI slot. In essence, I just want to serve my country. If I get what I want, awesome. If not, then I know I will be a valuable asset in any other field. Perhaps I am just thinking too much but I would like to get some opinions from folks who have been there, done that. Asides from that, if any of you know a forum for MI folks I would greatly appreciate any advice or comments you have to offer. (And yes, I have done a lot of research on this forum, professionalsoldiers.com, lightfighter tactical forum, globalsecurity, and others. So I'd like to think I'm not ignorant on the topic, but if I'm wrong like I said let me know.) Thank you for your time.

[leopardprey]

First of all thank for your courage and willingness to sign the dotted line and join the military.

IMHO, if you have the opportunity to go OCS and become an officer, then go that route. If you get the branch you want, that is good, but other branches are good as well and you can transfer later down the road. What I suggest you set your site on, is transferring to the FAO branch after a couple years of whatever branch you wind up in. That may suit you. As a former enlisted man, I would say again, go Officer. (better treatment, better pay, preps for better civilian management careers, etc..)

[Corsair]

As a former enlisted man in the CI/HUMINT field, IMHO I recommend that you go the officer route.

[SOTB]

Go officer....

[SFS0AVN]

Go where the money is, along with the other bennies.

[CDRODA396]

Having done three years as an enlisted man and 17 as a commissioned officer, here's my wooden nickles worth.

Being enlisted first, then going the commissioned route has some advantages, experience, time to mature as a human, ability to see and work for junior grade officer's, etc. However it is not a panacea to produce the superior officer. I have seen really great, I mean really great officers that came out of ROTC, OCS, WP without a days time enlisted, and I've seen real DIRT BAGS that I wouldnt follow into a McDonald's if I was starving to death and they were paying that had a whole lot of enlisted time.

It comes down to you, your willingness to put in the work, learn from your NCO's while leading them, and being open to suggestions when you are acquiring your experience base as a junior officer.

The pay is better as an O to be sure, but you pay for it in other ways...you get your platoon leader time, then its off to the S3 Shop for your penance, you get your company command time, then its off to the S4 Shop, or Brigade or some other staff job, while being enlisted doesnt exclude you from this, it greatly limits the amount of time you spend slaving away at taskers, memorandums, spreadsheets, etc. long after all the trigger pullers have gone home for the day.

So, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, if you sign up for OCS off the street, I think you fill out your "Dream Sheet" and the Army decides what branch you get, and it is a crap shoot...how many Chemical Officers became SF O's because they were assessed as ChemO's at the whim of the Gods!?! Your degree may influence your ability to get MI, or depending on what it's in, it may not help at all.

If you go enlisted, serve some time in the ranks, then apply for OCS, I believe, that your branch owns you and they get you back once you complete OCS...anyone know for sure? I would think that at a minimum, if you were enlisted MI, it would greatly influence the Army's decision when they assess you....but again, I'm sure there is an OCS grad on here that would know?

I would think its worth asking the questions....(1) If I go enlisted MI, how long do I have to serve before I can apply for OCS, and (2) if I am enlisted MI and am accepted for OCS, am I assured I will be commissioned as an MI Officer?

Six to 12 months as an enlisted man then off to OCS is not a bad thing to consider.

Then sit down with a beverage of your choice and your vodoo bones and make a decision based on all the available information you could dig up.

However it works out, let us know, and thanks for your willingness to sign up and serve during a very demanding time in our Nation's history, it will make you a better person and citizen, IMHO.

[SFS0AVN]

If you want to spend three or four years, go OCS but, if you are looking for a career in the military, CDRODA396 is right. I went a similar route to 396's, six years and then to WOC. The experience gained as an EM and NCO assisted me for the rest of my 36 year career. You learn things as an NCO you'll never learn as an Officer.

[jds]

Military.com has a robust Intel forum,in the Army discussion section.
97B is no longer an initial entry MOS,something to think about.


jds

[SHOOB]

Want to Be an MI officer and guaruntee it? PM me.

[ag4tj]

You could enlist and go to OCS and get lucky and branch MI; it's more likely that you'll branch detail (go infantry first then go to the MI advanced course, since there aren't a lot of O-1 and O-2 billets).
If you think you'll really like CI for a whole career and want to minimize staff and teaching assignments, enlist MI, then go warrant, stay in th counterintel world forever.

[Lurch]

A S Byron;
From an old retired 1SG, if you go enlisted first, gain trench knowledge, check out the "GREEN TO GOLD" program, or whatever the Army calls it now. I retired in 2000 so I doubt if the name is changed. I had several soldiers through out the years go this route. Good Luck in which ever route you take.

[Purple36]

97B is no longer an entry level MOS, make sure your recruiter is telling you the truth. Everyone starts out as a 97E.
While I might recommend going the OCS route as others here have done, it depends upon what you really want to do. Go after what you have a deep interest in. Will you be happy if you get branched Signal or some other career field you aren't particularly interested in?

Of course, I'm biased after 22 years.

[ASByron]

Hey everyone,

Thank you all for your replies to my post. While I have done a ton of research on my own and peppered my recruiter with questions, it was great to hear from guys who have been there, done that. In response to some of the info on here:

CDRODA 396: "If you go enlisted, serve some time in the ranks, then apply for OCS, I believe, that your branch owns you and they get you back once you complete OCS...anyone know for sure?"

That is what my recruiter told me. This is the primary reason I chose to go along the enlisted route, although it is not completely set in stone just yet. I have the luxury of one more year of college to complete, so I have plenty of time to play with my options. If you hear anything regarding this point, please feel free to contact me either through this forum or on AIM (my screen name is AstarrB).

Lurch: "From an old retired 1SG, if you go enlisted first, gain trench knowledge, check out the "GREEN TO GOLD" program"

The trench knowledge was another huge motivator for me. Like CDRODA said, (from what I've heard) there are both great officers and (insert explative here) officers that have graduated from the commissioning programs. However, coming from an enlisted SF father I can't get the idea of leading men after not having been in their shoes out of my head. As far as the GTG program: my recruiter told me that I could go in as an E-4, get my $65,000 college loan repayment at 33.3% a year, and go to OCS after 3 years. Thoughts?

JDS and Purple36: "97B is no longer an entry level MOS, make sure your recruiter is telling you the truth. Everyone starts out as a 97E."

Wow, are you sure about this? My recruiter told me that he would get me a guaranteed 97B slot. Being skeptical I went so far as to ask him when the contract becomes completely binding; I tried to give him the impression that if I did not get 97B I would be out the door and applying at one of the alphabet agencies (not that I would actually duck out on the Army, I did that for information's sake). Any points I should make with the recruiter to get a more informed story on this?

Once again, thank you for your replies. I can't wait to get myself in uniform and get the ball rolling, just have to figure out how to go about doing it!

v/r,
ASByron

[leopardprey]

If going enlisted will pay off your large college Debt, then that is a big plus to consider.

[jds]

I am positive 97B which is now 35L is not initial entry.97E(35M) is the preferred feeder MOS.

Recruiters typically do not do contracts,you get your contract from the counselor at MEPS.

I would simply ask my recruiter about this,he may not have gotten the word:D 10% never do.


jds

[ASByron]

jds: I am positive 97B which is now 35L is not initial entry.97E(35M) is the preferred feeder MOS.

Could it be that it's closed to initial entry meaning E-1's? Could it be different because I will be coming in as an E-4? Food for thought anyways.

[jds]

I belive it's E-5 and by application only.

jds

[Purple36]

MOS 97B will be a skill level 20 and above Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) and will no longer be accessed as initial entry training (IET) due to the personnel qualification criteria and the U.S. Code minimum age requirement for CI Special Agents to conduct sensitive investigations and operations. CI Special Agents will be accessed from three source pools:

1. Primary Feeder MOS (97E). 97E, HUMINT Collector, will be the primary feeder MOS for 97B. A number of the skill sets used by both MOSs are similar in their application. However, differences in mission focus, operational execution, and legal requirements make it necessary for the two MOSs to remain separate.

[] 97E First Term. First-term 97E enlistee soldiers attending HUMINT IET and meet all qualification criteria with the exception of rank may be identified by USAIC&FH proponent training organizations for follow-on CI training and assignment to a CI organization of position. These by-exception applicants will be screened and approved at the proponent in accordance with AR 614-200, DA Pamphlets 611-21, 600-8, and 351-4. HUMINT IET soldiers approved for follow-on CI training and assignment will retain the HUMINT MOS until completion of probationary requirements and promotion to E-5/SGT, at which time they will be permanently awarded the CI MOS code.

[] 97E Voluntary Reclassification. 97Es who meet 97B MOS eligibility requirements can volunteer for reclassification to 97B upon promotion to E-5/SGT or first reenlistment. Completion of the Basic CI Special Agents Course (BCISAC) is required prior to temporary awarding of 97B MOS and assignment to a CI position. After successful completion of the BCISAC and the one-year probationary period in accordance with applicable regulations, MOS 97B will be permanently awarded as the primary MOS. The probationary period will begin upon assignment to a CI position.

[moobob]

A board with MI folks? There's quite a few on SOCNET.

Go officer.

I work across the hall from some of the last first term 97B's. Everyone on here is correct, 97B is no longer an initial entry MOS.

Something worth mentioning might be that Army MI (CI/HUMINT side) is pretty much enlisted run, warrant led. Being a CI or interrogator warrant is a good deal... If I planned on staying in MI, I would go warrant.

[Mav]

I was in, as an MI NCO (98C), when 97B became non-IET and only E5 and above. And when it comes to MI, listen to Purple36. She's probably forgotten more than you'll ever even come in contact with, let alone ever actually know. If she says it, it's true. Just trust me.

[ASByron]

I was in, as an MI NCO (98C), when 97B became non-IET and only E5 and above. And when it comes to MI, listen to Purple36. She's probably forgotten more than you'll ever even come in contact with, let alone ever actually know. If she says it, it's true. Just trust me.

And that is exactly why I love pulling information from this forum. People looking to serve these days have the advantage of hearing from real sources as opposed to eating up everything recruiters have to say.

I will definitly be adding to this post after I meet with my recruiter again. I might even have to start another one because apparently there are some skeletons in my medical history that I have to take care of. Thank you all again for your input and I am looking forward to seeing more responses.

[Purple36]

MAV, ya make me sound old as dirt! :D
Well, I appreciate it but I can't claim to know all the MOS stuff, I just know that they made a change to the CI/Humint structure and it's no longer entry level (thank God!). Now, if there is some way his recruiter can do it and it's legit-that's cool. I'd like to see what the contract says first however.

[Mav]

Never, my dear! :D

[leopardprey]

Mav, Love your Avatar!!

[Mav]

Well thank ya :)

[TaskForceT]

ASB, Purple is giving you the straight poop in terms of the MOS.

Until recently I was the ARSOF proponent for all things HUMINT (MI).

As far as being commissioned, you need to do some soul searching. What do you, ASB, want to do in life? Do you want to lead troops or follow your dream of being a 97B. Sad to say, but as you progress you won't be able to do both. Soldiers, NCOs, and Warrants do 99% of our CI work. Officers do only limited high-level stuff, very limited. They spend the majority of the time doing just what I did for the past year, managing those that are doing the work. Should you decide that you want to do hands-on CI work but want to set yourself up, I would suggest: enlist 97E, transition to 97B at the earliest opportunity, then go CI Warrant. I can almost gurantee you that if you are a 97B and raise your hand to be a CI warrant, you will get it.

My $.02

(MAV - Newport kicks ASS!!)

[Spinner]

A board with MI folks? There's quite a few on SOCNET.

Go officer.

I work across the hall from some of the last first term 97B's. Everyone on here is correct, 97B is no longer an initial entry MOS.

Something worth mentioning might be that Army MI (CI/HUMINT side) is pretty much enlisted run, warrant led. Being a CI or interrogator warrant is a good deal... If I planned on staying in MI, I would go warrant.

I always wondered if those Warrant slots for IPW/CI could be filled from somebody enlisting for the first time. My impression was that most Warrants in that career field came from the enlisted ranks, after they had gained some experience.

I never thought to ask about that while I served. But you're right, it's a pretty good deal, especially when those Warrants are assigned to lead a section.

[moobob]

Good question... What I meant was the normal path to becoming a Warrant. Enlisted time, then putting in the Warrant packet.

As far as I know, the only way to come in as a Warrant is to be a pilot.

That said, I went through portions of 97E school with a 351M warrant that had previously been a SIGINT (98C) E-6.

Having a Warrant in HUMINT/CI with no experience would be bad news. A decent amount of 97E/97B NCO's are coming into the job as reclasses from other MOS's and have no MI experience. Throw those two together and they could have a steep learning curve.

I have limited experience here, but 99% of the time, MI officers spend most of their time doing staff work.

[ASByron]

To add to all of your comments, I found this article by CSM Franklin Saunders a few minutes ago. Basically repeats the information in this post but in a compact form. Check out the link, there is other good info for anyone else with a question similiar to mine. The 97B section is below.

http://www.universityofmilitaryintelligence.us/mipb/article.asp?articleID=98&issueID=6

" Effective 1 October 2006, MOS 97B will no longer be an entry-level MOS and all current 97B10 positions will be recoded to 97E10. MOS 97B will begin at the rank of SGT, creating a significant in-service recruiting requirement. MOS 97E is the MOS of choice for in-service recruiting for MOS 97B applicants, but MOS 97E Soldiers who choose to re-classify into MOS 97B are still required to go through the full MOS 97B (CI Applicant) process. MOS 97B requirements decrease from 1645 to 1305 during transformation to the Modular Force. MOS 97E requirements increase from 967 to 3330. MOS 97B remains on the STAR MOS list for SSG and 97E remains on the STAR MOS list for SGT and SSG. An additional MOS 97B issue being worked between OCMI, HRC, and HQDA G1 are the MOS 97B10 Soldiers who are currently in the force. Per the Notification of Future Change (NOFC) 0404-27, MOS 97B10 Soldiers can serve in MOS 97E10 positions thru FY09. By the end of FY09 most, if not all MOS 97B10 Soldiers, will either be promoted to MOS 97B20 or will have left the Army. Therefore, there is no immediate need to reclassify the MOS 97B10 Soldiers in the force. Implementation clarification is currently at HQDA G1 for comment. Updates related to this particular issue will be addressed in the future. "

Thanks again for all the replies!

[sfmedicw9]

trusting a recruiter is like trusting your cat to watch the parakeet

[Chaos30]

ASB,

There are plenty of great people on here who will square you away, but I just thought I would throw this out there. I graduated OCS and have some enlisted time, so feel free to post or PM me if you have any specific OCS questions. By the way, having done some ADSW at two different recruiting stations I concur whole-heartedly with sfmedicw9.

[ASByron]

Chaos,

I'll definitly hit you up with some questions. As of now I'm hung up in MEPS (thank you USAF for all the fun medical records being found!) but once i get this small shitshow squared away I'll need some advice and guidance. Thanks a bunch!

[Gargoyle]

A couple of things:

1. You cannot enlist for CI in the Army. You must volunteer for it as an E-5 or higher and go through an interview process and get selected. A SFC I work with who has spent his entire career in MI tried and got turned down. Something to think about.

2. I used to have an Army OIC who had served 4 years enlisted in MI finished her degree and went to OCS. I have to say that she is one of the better Army MI officers I have met...motivated as hell and kind of cute.