LE question

[ijoesnuffy]

I'm halfway through college and lately the idea of going into LE crossed my mind.
I have experience in infantry-- NG for 3 yrs.
And i'll have a zoology major.(hopefully)
Q: is college required?
My question is, what are the low points and high points of LE.
AND How difficult is it to be in swat. What are their priorities... PT, or character, or passing some sort of school. or, Is it more like a "recruiting tool" to get wide eyed kids to join.
If you have experience in LE or swat or anything like that please say so if you reply.
-joe snuffy, out.

[HmtPD2]

Well, zoology isnt exactly LE related, but most Depts dont care what it is in..just as long as you have a degree. It is good to get a degree in somthing other than Criminal Justice anyway.
There definitely are more ups than downs in LE. The ups are that it is exciting, and it is a rather independent job. Your not stuck in an office. The downs are that there are a lot weirdos always complaining, and you see the worst part of society, and gain a new appreciation for what people are actually capable of towards each other.
Your last comment was a little strange...SWAT is far from being a recruiting tool, or just passing some school. Most Dept SWAT units are made up of officers that have already proven themselves on the street. Most Depts want AT LEAST 2 yrs patrol before trying out. That way they are getting someone who reasonably can make good decisions, otherwise they would have been fired. Many of the factors they look for are all of what you mentioned. PT, character, shooting ability, and overall if the other members even like you. If you want to be a SWAT officer, you better be a hard worker, and go all out from the first day. If you join a big Dept, ie LAPD, LASO, San Diego, you could have a LONG wait. A lot of teams want to know what you can bring to the team as far a experience. SWAT is an organization that comes in when patrol doesnt have the equipment, or the specialized training to handle the most difficult and bizarre situations. So..after you get hired, graduate the academy, make the FTO, probation, and prove yourself for a couple of years, then wait for an opening, then try out against everyone else who wants to be on the team, you may just have the privilige of being on in SWAT. Oh yeah, then you have to pass that school.

[ijoesnuffy]

My post may have come across a bit different than i've wanted...
When i mentioned recruiting tool i was talking about, for example, Ranger contracts that recruiters give to 18 year olds joining up. Very few 18 year-olds that know what they want and know they have what it takes to be ranger..the other half even really know what a ranger does or get dissillusioned in basic and quit. With my experience now i could tell them the difference and save them a few alot of time.

From your description of swat they seem to be real high speed individuals from the sound of it.I asked b/c i'd heard of swat in a prison that trained only part time and the rest of the time did a regular job, e.m.t. guard.. ect. From what i hear police swat may be different than fed-prison swat. I was'nt meaning to say it was just a school.. and i apologize if anyone took it as a putdown.. on the contrary i was asking b/c i was interested
It sounds about as competive as joining Army sf. A regular joe like me would need more experience and preperation.. not to mention the prerequist .. hard core attitiude.


Anyway, back to regular troopers...
You said you get hired first, then the academy, then fto? How competive are hirings, is the academy like boot camp but with more class time. What does a brand spanking-new cop do?



[This message has been edited by ijoesnuffy (edited 09-06-2000).]

[Swat1]

I am a current police detective with nine years law enforcement experience and a SWAT team member. My team is a part time team and trust me, is as professional as any other. The selection and quarterly tests are as difficult as anyones (based on the LA County SO's SWAT). Almost every day I am out doing narcotics investigations because that is what I do, but when the pager goes off or the callout comes in I am a SWAT guy. We go out and do the same job that any SWAT team member of any team, full or part time would do without the luxury of training everyday. We only get to train three times a month for eight hours a training not including SWAT callouts. The corrections SWAT teams are different in certain tactics that they use, but the major difference is not whether full or part time.

Swat1*

[Tracy]

I haven't seen the latest FBI stats; but in 1998 approximately 97% of all Tactical Law Enforcement Units were part-timers. That's counting city, county, state and federal agencies.

When you compare that against their performance, it's pretty damned impressive they can do the job so efficiently.

Bottom Line: There ain't that many full-time slots available; so plan accordingly. It wouldn't hurt to be REALLY good at your full-time job in the PD; and be willing to sacrafice your free time to grunt and sweat in another stressful LE job.

[Tracy]

I haven't seen the latest FBI stats; but in 1998 approximately 97% of all Tactical Law Enforcement Units were part-timers. That's counting city, county, state and federal agencies.

When you compare that against their performance, it's pretty damned impressive they can do the job so efficiently.

Bottom Line: There ain't that many full-time slots available; so plan accordingly. It wouldn't hurt to be REALLY good at your full-time job in the PD; and be willing to sacrafice your free time to grunt and sweat in another stressful LE job.

[Gunpoint]

Just thought some info from someone on the inside was a bit better than the speculation I normally see here...

With the exception of HRT, which is full time, FBI only fields part-time SWAT teams. Nine of the 56 field office SWAT teams are enhanced, which means they train five days a month, ten hours each day, which amounts to over 50 hours a month. The remaining teams train three days per month.

The LA Team, over the last seven days (09/01-09/07) had three call outs: barricaded subject (he surrendered), Top Ten fugitive arrest, and bank robbery with hostages (side by side with Westminister PD SWAT). Thats representative of FBI-LA SWAT call outs.

The LA Team averages 50 - 55 call outs per year.

The LA Team is one of the only field office SWAT Teams to shoot the HRT pistol and subgun qual courses. The LA Team's scores are not too far off HRTs. HRT shoots at least four times per week instead of LA's once per week.

Of course, part time teams cannot compete with full-time teams like LAPD SWAT or Dallas SWAT no matter what anyone says. But when a part time team can get in 50 hours of training a month, I think they are doing pretty good.

I will now brace myself for the onslaught of anti-fed posts that I am sure will follow http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[Gunpoint]

Just thought some info from someone on the inside was a bit better than the speculation I normally see here...

With the exception of HRT, which is full time, FBI only fields part-time SWAT teams. Nine of the 56 field office SWAT teams are enhanced, which means they train five days a month, ten hours each day, which amounts to over 50 hours a month. The remaining teams train three days per month.

The LA Team, over the last seven days (09/01-09/07) had three call outs: barricaded subject (he surrendered), Top Ten fugitive arrest, and bank robbery with hostages (side by side with Westminister PD SWAT). Thats representative of FBI-LA SWAT call outs.

The LA Team averages 50 - 55 call outs per year.

The LA Team is one of the only field office SWAT Teams to shoot the HRT pistol and subgun qual courses. The LA Team's scores are not too far off HRTs. HRT shoots at least four times per week instead of LA's once per week.

Of course, part time teams cannot compete with full-time teams like LAPD SWAT or Dallas SWAT no matter what anyone says. But when a part time team can get in 50 hours of training a month, I think they are doing pretty good.

I will now brace myself for the onslaught of anti-fed posts that I am sure will follow http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[Gunpoint]

Just thought some info from someone on the inside was a bit better than the speculation I normally see here...

With the exception of HRT, which is full time, FBI only fields part-time SWAT teams. Nine of the 56 field office SWAT teams are enhanced, which means they train five days a month, ten hours each day, which amounts to over 50 hours a month. The remaining teams train three days per month.

The LA Team, over the last seven days (09/01-09/07) had three call outs: barricaded subject (he surrendered), Top Ten fugitive arrest, and bank robbery with hostages (side by side with Westminister PD SWAT). Thats representative of FBI-LA SWAT call outs.

The LA Team averages 50 - 55 call outs per year.

The LA Team is one of the only field office SWAT Teams to shoot the HRT pistol and subgun qual courses. The LA Team's scores are not too far off HRTs. HRT shoots at least four times per week instead of LA's once per week.

Of course, part time teams cannot compete with full-time teams like LAPD SWAT or Dallas SWAT no matter what anyone says. But when a part time team can get in 50 hours of training a month, I think they are doing pretty good.

I will now brace myself for the onslaught of anti-fed posts that I am sure will follow http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[Gunpoint]

Just thought some info from someone on the inside was a bit better than the speculation I normally see here...

With the exception of HRT, which is full time, FBI only fields part-time SWAT teams. Nine of the 56 field office SWAT teams are enhanced, which means they train five days a month, ten hours each day, which amounts to over 50 hours a month. The remaining teams train three days per month.

The LA Team, over the last seven days (09/01-09/07) had three call outs: barricaded subject (he surrendered), Top Ten fugitive arrest, and bank robbery with hostages (side by side with Westminister PD SWAT). Thats representative of FBI-LA SWAT call outs.

The LA Team averages 50 - 55 call outs per year.

The LA Team is one of the only field office SWAT Teams to shoot the HRT pistol and subgun qual courses. The LA Team's scores are not too far off HRTs. HRT shoots at least four times per week instead of LA's once per week.

Of course, part time teams cannot compete with full-time teams like LAPD SWAT or Dallas SWAT no matter what anyone says. But when a part time team can get in 50 hours of training a month, I think they are doing pretty good.

I will now brace myself for the onslaught of anti-fed posts that I am sure will follow http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[Gunpoint]

Just thought some info from someone on the inside was a bit better than the speculation I normally see here...

With the exception of HRT, which is full time, FBI only fields part-time SWAT teams. Nine of the 56 field office SWAT teams are enhanced, which means they train five days a month, ten hours each day, which amounts to over 50 hours a month. The remaining teams train three days per month.

The LA Team, over the last seven days (09/01-09/07) had three call outs: barricaded subject (he surrendered), Top Ten fugitive arrest, and bank robbery with hostages (side by side with Westminister PD SWAT). Thats representative of FBI-LA SWAT call outs.

The LA Team averages 50 - 55 call outs per year.

The LA Team is one of the only field office SWAT Teams to shoot the HRT pistol and subgun qual courses. The LA Team's scores are not too far off HRTs. HRT shoots at least four times per week instead of LA's once per week.

Of course, part time teams cannot compete with full-time teams like LAPD SWAT or Dallas SWAT no matter what anyone says. But when a part time team can get in 50 hours of training a month, I think they are doing pretty good.

I will now brace myself for the onslaught of anti-fed posts that I am sure will follow http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[DCH]

Mr. Snuffy,

GO FOR IT!, I highly recommend that you find out as much as possible about the day-to-day work of a Police Officer and see if it's for you. I put myself through a law enforcement academy (Los Angeles Co. Sheriff's) and graduated last year- it was without question the most challenging and REWARDING thing I've accomplished.

I'm currently applying with diff. local agencies in Orange Co., CA while finishing up my college degree. I have another two years until my CA State Certification runs out, so I'm using that time to get my academics squared away and know I will get hired on in the near future.

I do suggest that you look into a Reserve (part-time) position or Non-sworn support services to further acclimate yourself with how an Agency operates. I'm sure your military and academic background can only help when you do make the full-time Peace Officer position.

As far as SWAT teams?, I have very limited contact with the L.A. Sheriff's S.E.B. (Special Enf. Bureau)members, the ones I have met are extremely Poor Basketball players!, but very helpful, down-to-earth, and downright Professionals.

-DCH

[dsumner]

If I remember correctly, the FBI increased the number of enhanced teams after Waco. i don't recall the exact number right now but I think it's 19 teams now. They were also supposed to increase the amount of traing time for there teams.

[Tracy]

Hey 1811:

Why don't you hit the 'Submit' a couple more times? ;-)

Old proverb: "Your knife may be bigger, and your knife may be sharper; but MY knife is OUT, MF!"

The only SWAT Team that counts is the one going to the call-out.

[WS-G]

ijoesnuffy:

Like DCH I too put myself through the police academy at my own expense, without any departmental sponsorship. It is possible to obtain your initial peace officer certification this way, however, there are no guarantees that you'll actually be hired by a law enforcement agency afterwards.

I finally got a foot in the door with the Polk County SO — after the fourth time submitting an application!

I was twice interviewed, once each for a Patrol Deputy and Jail Deputy position, then politely shown the door and told by the Sheriff and the Jail Administrator to "keep in touch"; of course, I made it a point to emphasize that I was willing to start off in any position they had available, commissioned or otherwise, including Reserve, Animal Control and Dispatch.

The third time around, I was passed over for Animal Control Officer, then another full-time Patrol Deputy position came open last month. I put in for the job and was re-interviewed the smae week by the Sheriff and Chief Deputy. I didn't get the position, as both told me up front that (1) they needed to get a better look at how I performed on the job first, (2) that as someone not originally from the local area, I needed to get more familiar with the county, and (3) that they already had several other more experienced individuals under consideration.

I was advised to try re-applying — yet again! — for any of the several new Patrol and Jail positions that are anticipated to be approved once the County Commissioners' Court holds its next hearing (October), and asked me whether I'd be willing to consider taking a part-time job in Dispatch in the meantime.

Of course, I accepted the offer immediately, and was sent back to the County Personnel Office that afternoon for a typing test (I passed — though just barely!). I got the pre-employment physical and drug test out of the way by Friday of that week and was called in to begin working first thing the very next Monday.

While I can see right now that I'll never make an outstanding Dispatcher, it's at least an excellent opportunity to get a first-hand look at what real Dispatchers do. I'd venture that the best ones tend to come from very strong secretarial backgrounds; I'm one of those that has to use the two-index-fingers-and-stare-at-the-keyboard method of typing — not an easy thing when you're juggling three 9-1-1 lines, half a dozen non-emergency landlines and handling radio traffic for two dozen different units, all while you're still figuring out which way to jump because each shift supervisor wants things done differently and you're simultaneously dealing with the shock of discovering that the QZ-groups, International Phonetic Alphabet and standard NATO and ICAO R/T phraseology that's been second-nature to you for the past 20 years is suddenly "all wrong".

After that, handling all our resident underachieving turds back in the cellblocks and driving feces-flinging crazies to the nut-house will come as a vacation! The bottom line here is this: if you don't get picked for a sworn commissioned peace officer position with whatever department to which you've applied, but they offer you a job doing something else for them TAKE IT! Given that it's simpler and cheaper for everyone else involved to simply ignore you without so much saying "Hit the road!", such an event is a clear indication that the department simply wants to get a better look at you before offering you a badge.

Of the other 21 of in my Basic Academy class who graduated and passed the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education (TCLEOSE) Basic Peace Officer Certification examination, here's where we stand now:
1 was already a part-time Jailer for the Nacogdoches County SO. This man was also a recent Army ROTC grad, already commissioned as a 2LT in the Army Reserve. He was branching Military Police, and had said something about wanting to go active for a while. 1 — who at age 47 was the oldest cadet in my class — had already been appointed as a Deputy Constable for a precinct in neighboring Jasper County, and had to pass the Academy (and the TCLEOSE exam) in order to keep his job. 3 were already experienced Corrections Officers, still employed by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice. To the best of my knowledge, all three are still working for TDCJ. 1 — the very first of the class to be hired — went to work two months later for the Nacogdoches PD. 1 — our youngest cadet, who had just turned 21, and already had 3 years' experience as a volunteer fireman and paramedic — is now a reserve deputy for the Angelina County SO, and juggles that position between his VFD duties and his full-time job as an emergency response team member for one of the larger industrial plants in the Lufkin, TX area. 1 is a reserve deputy with the Nacogdoches County SO. The other 13 don't even appear to have been trying to get hired.

Finally, about SWAT.... Bringing that up during the application/interview process, when you're not even a rookie yet, is a great way to draw a lot of negative attention to yourself, even if you have a military background that's relevant to the job.

Fair or unfair, you may find yourself being viewed as a loonie-tune/wannabe until (unless) proven otherwise. On the first day of my own Academy class, we were all asked to stand up and introduce ourselves to the rest of the class, including a brief statement of our career goals in law enforcement.

The only one who said "...an ah wanna be on a SWAT team!" was a short, overweight, loudmouthed ignoramus who had never been in the military, couldn't shoot worth a damn despite owning a houseful of weapons and his own private range in his back yard, and verily oozed a "white supremacist" attitude. When it came time to run our tactical scenarii (with Simunitions) during Patrol Procedures, this guy was the only individual in the class to end up either emptying his weapon or getting himself and his partner "killed"! By comparison, when my own partner (who now works for Nacogdoches PD) and I ran through these same drills (three in all: 1 each disturbed person with weapon, domestic disturbance, and building search), we had the following outcomes: Disturbed person: resolved verbally. Domestic dispute: "drunk belligerent husband" twisted off on my partner while I was interviewing the "equally argumentative wife". We did have to draw, but managed to put both subjects on the floor and get them cuffed with no further difficulty at that point. Building search: this one was designed to turn into an ambush. My partner and I shot and "killed" both actors, the first one in an exchange of Simunitions fire at a range of three feet. Total shots fired: 9 — 7 at first actor (4 mine, 3 partner's, all hits), 2 at second actor (both mine; partner was reloading). Our SWAT-team wannabe managed to empty his sidearm without a single hit before he and his partner "died".

If you choose to get your peace officer certification on your own, make it a point to get some additional training courses under your belt as a follow-on if you can. Try to demonstrate some versatility while showing that you're serious about police work in general. One of the things that had gone a long way towards making a positive impression on my last interview was the fact that I'd taken the time and effort to attend such things as Intermediate Use of Force (Texas Penal Code and Constitutional issues relating to it, not techniques!), Civil Rights, Sexual Assault Investigation and Sex Offender Characteristics, and Mental Health Officer Certification. Finally, have a long-tern goal in mind (e.g.: Investigations, SWAT, my own goal is Air Operations), but be able to satisfy your interviewers and background investigators that you've given some serious thought about what you'd like to do in the event you don't get that assignment.

------------------
Co. G (-)(Abn/Rgr), 143d INF(LRRP), TXARNG 1981-1985
433MAW (AFRES), 1985-1991
Co. G, 143d Inf (LRS), 2000-present

State of Texas certified Peace Officer

FAA-certificated pilot and Advanced Ground Instructor

[Jeff Rambo]

Originally posted by 1811:
Top Ten fugitive arrest

Didn't happen to be James Charles Kopp by chance? Weird coincidence if so.

Look forward to your response.

------------------
w/ Regards,
Jeff Rambo

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I Want A Four Man Team On A Midnight Run ...

[Linus]

Hey-hey Tracy-Tracy,

I-I would'nt-wouldn't be-be to-to smartmouthed-smartmouthed about-about the-the "Submit"-"Submit" button-button if-if I-I were-were in-in your-your position-position http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

Or perhaps you just happened to double-tap it, old habits die hard in that itchy triggerfinger, huh? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/tongue.gif

NICE attitude in the quote, cool as November! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/cool.gif

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

[FLTCREW1]

"dealing with the shock of discovering that the QZ-groups, International Phonetic Alphabet and standard NATO and ICAO R/T phraseology that's been second-nature to you for the past 20 years is suddenly "all wrong".

WM Salter,

LMAO, I know exactly what you mean my friend.

NSDQ

[Gunpoint]

Submit button accidentally set for four round burst...operator error.

I'm obviously an idiot.

[WS-G]

Shame on you, Linus — you forgot to say "words twice"!
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[Sharky]

Hmmm, This is a perfect opportunity to bag on the FBI but I will let it go this time since I too am feeding from the federal tit. I will however insure that my submit button is on semi-auto.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[DCH]

Hey Salter,

Nobody's Perfect ok man!

We were running felony carstop scenarios when the bad dudes decided to exit their car with Paintballs-a-blazin! So I make a hasty exit and head toward the back of the unit for some Cover/Concealment and try to return fire while my partner freezes up!- my sims weapon jams (tap-n-rack didn't work), and my unit starts to roll downhill, forward towards my Instructor's.(bad dude) PERSONAL car, while another Instructor LOCKED in the back seat of my unit is grading my parter and me- UNABLE TO GET OUT HIMSELF! Needless to say I made it back in the unit and nearly broke the E-brake pedal in two, and DID manage to break the gear shift lever jamming it into Park!

I managed to get a weapon malfunction, put a police unit out of service, and nearly rear-end an instructor's car all within 30 seconds!

OH yeah, I passed the remediation.

-DCH

[Sharky]

God! How I would love to see that on video! Now THAT is entertainment. LMAO.......Don't worry DCH, we all do some stupid things sometimes but I wont post mine on here. LOL

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F.I.D.O.

[Mike]

expanding on Tracy's mention that FLE's SWAT teams are part-timers, do that mean:
DEA
INS
USMS
ATF
SS?

[Sharky]

Mike, I can only speak for INS or rather the USBP, but, yes, all of our teams are part-time teams. As far as I know USBP owns all tactical teams under INS.

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F.I.D.O.

[RECON5]

Mike,

Now this is going off of the last INFORMATION I had received. You may want to double check it for accuracy, since I have been off a team for year.

DEA has a team they use to do the forced entry work on Cladestine Lab stuff, which I THINK is full time. I have never seen them since the last operating lab in this AO (the time I was with at the time) we made the entry on.

Secret Service has a team that I believe is the DSS - Dignitary Protection Service and they are full time.

USMS has a SOG Team(Special Operations Group) that is full time.

Sharky covered INS, which I have no idea.

The friend of mine in KC with ATF is on thier team in that region, which all thier teams are part time.

Hope this helps, Hope my memory serves me right. If not I am sure someone will help me out.

REMEMBER 1*

[mdb23]

RECON5-

I hate to publicly disagree with another cop, but you are a little off in regard to the status of the teams.

USMS SOG is not a full time team. Though they keep a small number of full time training cadre at Camp Beauregard, LA, the remainder of the operators work as normal agents in their District Offices. They report to the Tactical Training Center (at the aforementioned location) a MINIMUM of once every six months to train with their team, and also conduct regular training at their District Offices when time allows. It should also be noted that there isn't a "single" SOG team. There are several regional teams which are all more comparable to the FBI enhanced SWAT teams than to an organization such as the FBI HRT.

DSS is not part of the Secret Service, though you are correct that their MDT's (Mobile Defense Teams) are full time. The DSS is under the Department of State.


Stay Safe

mdb23


PS Your friend at the ATF wouldn't happen to work/ have worked on a task force with KCPD, would he? I might have bumped into him.

[This message has been edited by mdb23 (edited 09-15-2000).]

[RECON5]

MBD23-

No problem, that is why I posted you may want to check this for accuracy, and if I were wrong someone could help me out. The only team I had any personal knowledge of was the ATF, which came from a friend, and we spent more time shooting the breeze over cold beer than talking shop. I do however appreciate the way you made the corrections or "helped me out".

It is very possible I saw him last quiet a few years ago when they were in Texas, but the last time I talked to him he was heading out to teach in the Academy. (S.A. Schmitz)

REMEMBER 1*

[mdb23]

RECON5

Name doesn't ring any bells. I just thought that it would have been a huge coincidence had your friend been the same agent who taught a short course during our academy on familiarization with the ATF and its roles/responsibilities.

On a separate note, I don't know if anyone heard about this, but a LEO in Virginia was killed this past week when a suspect, who he had transported to the detention facility for booking, was able to conceal a small handgn in his boot. The officer, who had already secured his weapon in a lock box, had removed his cuffs from the suspect, and was making a phone call when the suspect removed the weapon from his boot. The suspect and officer struggled for the weapon, but the suspect prevailed and shot the officer in the head, fatally wounding him.

The suspect then escaped from the facility and is still at large.

However, I am sure that the media will completely ignore this story in light of the recent footage of the Miami officers (allegedly) using excessive force. Sometimes it just doesn't seem worth the trouble.

mdb23

[Gunpoint]

I think the DSS/BDS teams are called Mobile Security Teams instead of Mobile Defense Teams.

USSS does have Counter Assault Teams, and I think they are full-time.

[mdb23]

I stand corrected........

[SGT_GRUNT_USMC]

The Secret Service Uniformed Division also
has the ERT (Emergency Response Team) and
CST (Counter-Sniper Teams).

Just about every federal agency nowadays
has some kind of SWAT cabability:

The Defense Protective Service (the Pentagon's police force)has a SWAT team.

The Federal Bureau of Prisons has a SORT
(Special Operations Response Teams)at every
maximum and medium security institution.

US Park Police has SWAT

Federal Protective Service has SORT teams

Semper Fi,

GRUNT