specialties

[seaairland]

ive always wondered what the specialties of swat range in........do they specialize in just barricaded subjects or do they do ct ops too?

[bd]

Hi seaairland,

SWAT missions vary widely. Most teams handle a myiad of callups ranging from barricaded suspects, hostage standoffs, warrant service, security details, surveillance operations, and even UC work. Operations vary from urban to woodlands to even maritime environments. Training other officers and agencies is also a typical SWAT mission.

As for CT operations, most SWAT teams do not see much fo that type of action. CT is handled mostly by federal agencies and the military. Of course, that all depends on how you define terrorism too. Would SWAT respond to a terrorism incident? Absolutely. In fact, local teams would likely be the first on scene. Who would respond to take action against terrorist groups in the US? That responsibility belongs to the FBI (among other government agencies).

Remember, SWAT teams are specialists in mostly permissive environments (non-combat) and operate at the local/state level. However, many large metro SWAT teams train with their military counterparts and do share techniques. Especially since teams are operating every day and in many cases have valuable experience that military units can adopt.

Take care and be safe.

BD

[Tracy]

In addition to what BD said, a SWAT Team's charter depends on what the Police leadership says it is. I've trained some SWAT Teams that ONLY do barricade situations. Other teams wind up with SAR, EOD, Barricade, Riot Control, etc.

All SWAT Teams have one thing in common: they do jobs that regular Patrol Units can't handle. In the LA area I know of two SWAT Teams that have the same charter but get called out under wildly different conditions.

In one very quiet city, the SWAT has been called out for bar fights. The other team in South-Central LA gets called only when either: 1)Patrol cops run out of ammo or 2)Patrol cops get tired of playing around with some doofus. When this team goes through the breach, you KNOW you screwed up bigtime.

Some Patrol officers respond to calls the way other SWAT Teams do. It all depends on the situation, structure of the PD, and the experience level of the Patrol Officers. The less experience a Patrol Division has with dynamic situations, the more likely Tactical Officers will handle the call.

[J-Dog]

Image the worst..... Then train to neturalize it.

[Sharky]

Well, SeaAirLand, do you see now? If you ask an intelligent, genuine question you will get a lot of good info from this board. I'm impressed. How's the homework coming? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

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F.I.D.O.

[seaairland]

Sharky, I guess the homework isn't progressing too well. I've lately been tied up with homework from my school. Sorry if the name is misleading. I just chose this name because the SEALs are my favorite special operations team. As for this, I just have one more question, I understand that SWAT will specialize in basically any type of situation, but I would like to know if they also cross-train with other SWAT units. For example, The Santa Monica SWAT team training with the Los Angeles SWAT team.

[Sharky]

Almost any SWAT team will train or cross-train with anyone anytime they have a chance. They may not adopt the things that they learn from other teams but it is always good to learn anything that you can. E-mail me and I'll try to answer your questions if I can.

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F.I.D.O.

[HmtPD2]

A lot of SWAT teams do cross train, however you do have your occasional "higher-ups" that do not get along. Unfortunately, it can even result in a dept not asking for assistance because someones ego gets in the way.
SWAT teams training together in invaluable, because you get such a wide variety of ideas, and real world advice on real world situations that maybe your team has never encountered.
My Dept just served a dual search warrant. We served it on two different houses at the same time. It worked great, because people see the mission, and dont get tied up in the politics.

[Gunpoint]

Operator-level cooperation is usually fantastic. Its the higher-ups who throw the tracks off the tanks.

As far as teams traiing together...in preparation for the Democratic National Convention, FBI Los Angeles SWAT and LAPD D Platoon (SWAT) conducted a few hostage rescue/agent-officer rescue exercises.

[seaairland]

Another thing I've noticed about SWAT, is that they don't seem to have a deployment pattern. As far as I'm concerned, in a barricaded situation, if they were to infiltrate, would be to toss tear gas into the area of operation, don gas masks, and send as many SWAT officers into the area.

[mdb23]

seaairland

You must remember that not all of the individuals involved are "tangos" (especially in the law enforcement field). The implementation of tear gas or other chemical agents may not be practical in situations where small children, who may have nearly fatal/fatal reactions to the gas, may be contained inside the residence.

All situations are unique, and call for specialized planning which takes into consideration all of the relevant information. There is no "magic formula", such as pumping a house full of gas and storming the door with every available officer, that will work in all situations.

take care,

mdb23
just a lowly patrol officer


[This message has been edited by mdb23 (edited 09-16-2000).]

[seaairland]

I understand that type of situation, but it puzzles me because I don't understand why they don't do the military procedure. This involves "flashbanging" the area of the "tangos" and possibly hostages and making a dynamic and violent entry through the use of shotguns for doorbreaching, fastroping through any available windows, or setting breaching charges.

[HmtPD2]

The dual search warrant I talked about above involved what you just mentioned. UNFORTUNATELY.....I say that because anyone who has done it will tell you it is hard, and dangerous, the team had to enter through the living room window because of the deadbolt security door. Even the SAS got hung up making a window entry at Princes Gate.
The door was set back into the wall about three feet, so it could not be pried or rammed. The window was blown with "Avon" rounds, and the room was "banged" several times as officers used a step ladder to make entry. Two officers posted on the corners of the windows, outside, and covered the room as the others entered. Another officer was throwing "bangs" into the small bathroom window to keep anyone from getting to the toilet and flushing dope. Also "bangs" were thrown into the kitchen, because they will keep dope in the garbage disposal, just flip the switch and your evidence is gone.
Explosive breaching is hard for cops because of liability, and storage requirements for the explosives, and lack of explosive breachers, and it is expensive, but it is done by some depts. Rappelling is also commonly used by SWAT, but can be dangerous if not practiced. Fast roping is done from helicopters, and most depts don't have that capability. I think "Tracy" said it earlier, 97% of SWAT units are part time, so unfortunately, you can't train like the SAS. But you can, and do, get pretty good. You would be surprised how far the "basics" will take you.
Just remember the three principals of CQB
"Speed, Surprise, Violence of Action."

[mdb23]

Although MmtPD summed up the situation quite well, I am once again going to stress a major reason that LE Tac teams are not tossing flashbangs every chance they get and utilizing explosive breaching techniques every time they go through a door:

LIABILITY!!!!!!

Delta and the SAS do not have to worry, upon breaching a door, whether or not the hostages, whom they have just rescued, will sue them for hearing loss. Or, God forbid, the explosives used for breaching burn or injure an innocent who has been caught up in the situation. LE units are constantly scrutinized and second guessed by civil litigation lawyers who will attempt to prove that "such a level of force was neither justifiable nor necessary!"

Anyone involved in LE in a major metropolitan area will tell you that there are MANY people who are looking for a free ride in life, especially on the city's dime.

Why blow a door when a ramming device will do the trick? Why fastrope from a chopper when it is not necessary for the completion of the mission? As HmtPD said, you would be surprised just how often the basics are all that are needed. Try to get fancy, especially with a perishable skill that you haven't practiced in weeks (or months), and you are simply endangering the people that you are attempting to rescue as well as your own personnel.

mdb23

[This message has been edited by mdb23 (edited 09-17-2000).]

[seaairland]

I believe I've misunderstood the SWAT form of entry. Tell me if I'm correct. SWAT units will basically breach a door without the use of a shotgun but with a ramming device. A question comes to mind though, if SWAT units do not normally fastrope from a chopper, then they would have to enter from basically ground level or the second floor. SWAT also does not use flashbangs often, which is understood, but they do use a form of gas right? Also, SWAT units are part time? I had no idea. I thought they trained full time the same way SAS or Delta Force did. Also, if I'm correct, SWAT does not train as hard as either SAS or Delta Force right? What I cannot understand is why anyone would want to sue someone who saved their lives. It is utterly unthinkable.

[falcon2]

Law Enforcement is alot different now then what it was 10 years ago. You know liability is bad when you respond to a Motor vehicle accident involving a city bus and the first thing the driver of the bus says to you is that 10 of those 20 people who are so eager to give you there names because there hurt and they were on the bus were never actually on the bus but ran inside after the accident. The best part of this is is that the city will probably settle with these fakes rather then investigating it.

I can only imagine what would happen if our ESU conducted a raid in a city housing project first floor apartment using a shotgun to blow the locks. My guess is that 80% of the residents from the first floor up to the ninth floor would sue the city for mental trauma they suffered due to hearing the gun shot. The best part is that a jury would probably award money to residents.

I don't know how it is in other cities but in the NYPD morale is at an all time low and were being handed shovels to go even further!

[bd]

Hi seaairland,

Urban environments that SWAT typically respond to are passive in nature. In other words, they are not free-fire combat zones. Coming in by fastrope from a helo is not the usual way SWAT gets on-scene. (Although I wonder how you'd rope in 12 guys from a Hughes 500? =:0) A tactical team will use whatever method of getting on-scene is the most efficient weather that is by air, over water, or on land.

The method of entry is dictated by the situation. Obviously, serving a search warrant on a sleeping suspect in the middle of the night is different from HR. What teams want to do is go in *efficiently*. In other words, why blow holes in doors with cutting charges when a prybar or hammer will get you in quicker and easier. Shotguns are used as well with special breaching rounds.

SWAT uses flashbangs (the politically correct term is "distraction devices") and/or gas if the situation dictates. As I said before, SWAT operates in a permissive environment, and there is no need for clearing by fire.

I wouldnt say that SWAT trains "easier" than the high-speed units (SAS/CAG/SEALs/whoever). Many units train just as hard as high-speed military guys. In fact, many depts such as LAPD and Miami have waiting lists of officers with military special operations experience that don't make the team. (I'm not saying anything negative about military operators.) Military units train with and share techniques with SWAT teams and vice versa in any instances.

One of the common threads (and there are many) you will find between SWAT operators and military operators is that they are all professionals. This will hold true weather the team is a part time team that works together a few times a month or a full-time team that works together every day.

Sorry for the book. Take care and be safe.

BD

[Seoultrain34]

Understood bd, but I heard that SWAT doesn't operate in just urban environments. Is this true? I have never heard of a SWAT team operating in the outdoors. That would be something the military specializes in right? Also in liability, I understand that SWAT doesn't naturally operate in a free-fire zone, but if they were in a zone free from civilians(i.e. an abandoned warehouse) they would be allowed to operate more aggressively right?

[dsumner]

SWAT/tactical teams can and do operate in rural environments. It just depends on the area of the country you are located in.

Some teams are very good at tactical field operations and devote a lot of training time to them. Some teams, usually the ones who are involved in tracking operations, undertake specialized training courses provided by private training firms, the military, and other LE agencies.

As for having fee reign in the woods, the one thing you have to remember is that you are responsible for the effects of every round discharged from your weapon.

Lets say you are tracking an escaped inmate throught hte woods. You spot him, he charges at you with a knife. You fire a round at him, miss your target, and hit someone. You might as well start dialing the number for a good lawyer, becuase you will be hung out to dry.

You would be amazed at the amount of training time that is devoted to legal liability, and what will happen to you if you mess up.

[RECON5]

Seoultrain -

DSumner hit the nail on the head. The environment dictates the team's operations not the type of team. (or should) The only exception maybe if the department is too small or lacks in resources in which case an area LE Team would step in.

The team I was with was the only one for our county and all those surrounding us. We handled operations urban and rural. We trained for these situations equally (pretty much) and even trained with some military units for these type scenarios. I feel comfortable in saying we were equally as comfortable in either setting.

The liabiltiy for your actions follows you whether your in a rural or urban enviroment.
There is no "free fire zone" in LE. Our Teams SOP was the only time you fire WITHOUT having a target in your sights is in an officer rescue type situation, and then you better be putting those rounds into something "solid" like the door frame or tree the suspect is hiding behind.

DSumner covered the liability, but it can not be stressed enough. I dont think some of those outside the LE field understand the massive amounts of liability LE faces just to trying to protect those, who may try to sue them in the end.

REMEMBER 1*

[dsumner]

Let me give you an example of some of the stranger things I've seen happen.

I work for the VA DOC and we have mutual aid agreements with several other agencies. A NC sheriff's dept. had an escape and deployed its tactical unit. The dept. did not have dogs trained in tracking, we did, and they asked us for assistance.

Everything was done over the phone by word of mouth. The K-9 officer was paged, and of to NC he went. After getting a quick briefing
he put his dog to work and they tracked the suspect to one of his relative's home.

The NC tac team conducted a recon of the house and devised a plan for entering, which involved using the dog.

The team was spotted as it made it's advanced, and the guy was waiting for them to enter the house.

The deputies breached the door, and as the first two tac officers entered the house the suspect fired at them striking both, in their vests, knocking them down.

The VA K-9 officer, who was the third through the door, immeditely fired on the suspect hitting him once. At the same time dog attacked the suspect bitting him several times before he surrenderd.

When NC found out that our guy was the one who shoot the suspect,all hell broke loose. Everyone got selective memory, cliaming our K-9 officer had no legal authority to enter the home, carry a weapon in NC, or shoot anyone. No one could "remember" who actually gave him the authority to cross state lines.

VA DOC's Internal Affairs was all over the guy. I know he got a few weeks on the street while they investigated the whole thing. The guy he shoot was trying to sue the NC sheriff, the state of VA, and the officer.

Example 2:
A security transport van is carrying an inmate to a medical appointment. The van is involved in an accident where it was struck by a car from the rear.

The inmate was not strappen in with a seat belt. The firstt hing the inmate claims is that he was "violently thrown from his seat, and injuried his neck and back".

The car that hit them was doing less than 15 MPH and barly dent the rear fendor. The inmate sued the officers for not securing him with a seat belt.

I don't know any officer that is going to crawl up insid of a van lean down in front of an inmate and make sure his seat belt is on, he can do it his damn self. A local sheriff's deputy got his throat silt doing that very thing a few years ago.



[This message has been edited by dsumner (edited 09-20-2000).]

[seaairland]

Wow, so no matter what the environment, SWAT teams must always operate under Rules of Engagement right?

[Sharky]

If you legally carry a gun you will ALWAYS have some sort of ROE. Even if you are a civilian with a concealed carry permit, there are still rules of engagement of one sort or another. Only the criminal gets a free hand to do as he pleases. At least until someone like me, Recon5 or JC with a badge and a very bad attitude comes along and crushes his ass.

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F.I.D.O.

[This message has been edited by Sharky (edited 09-22-2000).]

[RECON5]

Hey Sharky......I resemble that remark...LOL

[seaairland]

Sharky, do you mean that all aspects of special operations teams operate under rules of engagement? For example, a domestic team such as the HRT, of a military such as Force Recon, Special Forces, and SEALs. Do they also operate under rules of engagements?

[Sharky]

EVERYONE has rules of engagement except the criminals. Those ROE can vary from one extreme to the other but they are ALWAYS there unless you are a criminal.

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F.I.D.O.

[Paintman]

Hey J-Dog!

I live about 15 minutes drive away from Merced, in boring 'ol Atwater. Funny coincidence, huh?

[Tracy]

A Common ROE I've seen for SWAT engagement was called the "Five T's" :

1. Time.
2. Talk.
3. Tear Gas.
4. Trigger.
5. Tactical.

Generally, you give the perp time to think about his lousy position, let someone con him into surrendering, flush him out out, let the Snipers have a shot at him, or have the Assualt Team dig him out.

An FBI SA in Los Angeles did an impromptu study about 9 years ago of tactical call-outs in LA County. He found that almost 90% of the call-outs resulted in 'peaceful' resolution; meaning no shots fired. His paper argued for manning part-time SWAT Teams versus full-time SWAT geeks.

Nashville Metro PD did a SWAT study and found there were less liability claims against PDs with full-time SWAT versus part-time SWAT units. They're trying to get a full-time SWAT unit started. Nashville's SWAT has NEVER fired a shot on a operation, yet they have bagged some seriously bad dudes. They did, however, shoot a pit bull on a raid once! Nashville SWAT has some very sneaky and devious folks on board; and it shows on their record.

[J-Dog]

Paintman, I graduated from AHS several moons ago. When I worked out of the main office I new alot of the APD guys. Sounds like they have a new crew.

Joe
PS Atwater isn't that bad, you could live in Snelling...........

[Paintman]

Snelling, with all the rocks! Or Winton ::shivers:: ( ;
I'm a Junior currently. I've noticed we have a new cop on school duty here.
Speaking of callouts, wasn't the Merced SWAT Team called out a long while ago about a car chase that turned into a firefight? Memories are sketchy, but I believed one cop was shot in the hand during the chase, and the suspects surrendered at their house.
Chris

[J-Dog]

PM, easy now I grew up in Winton. No good call outs in a while. The incident your referring to is either one of two I can recall. No call out on either detail. (They were both over within min.s.)

See ya.......
Joe

[J-Dog]

Paintman, I feel like an idiot. Yea, They were gang members that just did a drive-by. That was Merced PD's SWAT team. It ended in your neck of woods. Our team was first on scene, but because it was a MPD gig they handled it. My memory is getting bad the older I get......... A PD officer was shot twice, He's ok and back to work.

Joe

[seaairland]

Ya whenever SWAT gets called out somewhere, they usually get a peaceful outcome. I remember seeing a police video of a barricaded suspect in a car. He was armed and SWAT didn't move in until he came out of the car unarmed. They then rushed in and fired rubber slugs at his chest to stun him while they cuffed him. As for maintaining a part-time SWAT team, that would probably cut costs, but what if a call-up came with numerous armed barricaded suspects who fired at the SWAT team? The SWAT team is gonna be sort of screwed if they got into a firefight because they won't have the same skills that they would have from full-time training. Yah I know these things are rare, but they should be prepared.

[Paintman]

J-Dog,

A friend of mine lives directly across the street from the house where the gang bangers held up. That's how I heard about it, then later in the newspaper. Looking at their garage, I can see a busted door AND window. hmmm....

[J-Dog]

They made a dynamic entry. No one was left inside at the time. (You should see the carpet from the flash bang.)

Joe

[RECON5]

Sea -

A Team's training will prepare them for the "shoot out with numerous armed barricaded subjects" regardless if the Team is full time or part time. The part time team status usually does cut some cost by having these officers work more than one assignment, but make no mistake the guys "generally" are as dedicated as the full time guys. If you dont believe it trying working a 10 then responding to a call out in the middle of your down town.....with enthusiasm, and the proper mind set.

I worked on a full time team for 4 1/2 years. Loved the idea, and I believe most would prefer the Tactical assignment full time. The Teams training, and experience will "usually" dictate thier performance, before there part-time status will.



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REMEMBER 1*