MS13 and other punk gang bastards!

[zero point monkey]

I am glad that these countries have taken a stronger stance against these bastards. I wish the US would take the lead in the fight against these guys, some of the stories coming across the wire about these guys and what they are doing in the US sickens and infuriates me to no end. They have begun to successfully infiltrate our cities and communities...beware!



CHIMALTENANGO, Guatemala (AP) -- Tattoos, baggy pants and tank tops are out. Smart blazers and university recruits are in.

Mara gang member "Smoking," 25, poses in prison. Most gangsters with tattooed faces are dead, hiding, or in jail.


It's an extreme makeover for Central America's gangs. Facing harsh crackdowns by government security forces and citizen vigilante groups, they are trying to lower their profile.

The Mara 18 and Mara Salvatrucha gangs are known throughout Central America and the United States for their brazen tactics, including beheading their enemies and covering entire buildings and even their bodies with gang symbols.

Now, according to anti-gang operatives, these traditionally uneducated and aimless youth have begun recruiting high school and college students, and are expanding their criminal repertoire from minor robbery to large-scale extortion, prostitution, car theft and kidnappings.

The gangs first formed in Los Angeles in the 1980s, attracting Salvadorans who fled to the United States to escape civil war. A decade later, after many of the members were deported for crimes committed in the United States, the gangs established themselves in Central America.

The maras are believed to number about 100,000 in Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras and Nicaragua. As many as 30,000 also operate in the United States, mostly in Los Angeles, according to U.S. federal authorities.

Setting themselves apart by tattooing themselves head to toe with threatening symbols and hanging out in large crowds on street corners, their goal was to intimidate law-abiding citizens and rival gangs alike, experts say.

That has changed recently, after El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras adopted tough anti-gang policies, including graffiti-removal campaigns and harsh punishments for gang-related crimes. Many youths have been arrested or killed, allegedly in operations by police or citizen's groups.

"These days we can't even go out onto the street, where the police look at us and we end up dead," said Giovanni Estrada, an imprisoned gang member with tattooed face who goes by the nickname of "Little Crazy." "That's why we tell [new gang members] not to paint their faces."

Both Sammy Rivera, a security adviser for the Narcotics Affairs Section of the U.S. Embassy in Guatemala, and Jose Luis Tovar, deputy police chief in El Salvador, say the gangs' increasingly lucrative pursuits have attracted high school and college students looking to make a buck. It's a breed apart from the dropouts and other gang members whose main aim was a need to belong.

"Before they would rob a bus and could take away some cell phones and a little money," Rivera said. "Now they have a steady income from the extortion they carry out in their territories."

Ingrid Vicente left her husband, two children, government job and law studies to join a gang in 2002. As a secretary at the Finance Ministry, she earned 2,000 quetzales a month. She doubled that in one day as a gang member.

Because she didn't look like a typical mara, she easily smuggled guns from El Salvador, earning about $650 a day. She also helped uneducated gang members figure out how much they could extort from a storekeeper without bankrupting him.

"These guys don't know what is possible," Vicente told The Associated Press. "They didn't even know how to drive a car or a motorcycle, so I showed them how to drive."

But then she discovered the price. After having two more children with a gang member, she decided to quit. In retaliation, her gang killed her brother and her boyfriend. She is now a witness, testifying against the others.

Gangs have been forced to recruit people like Vicente to stay ahead of the government's zero-tolerance policies, which have forced them underground -- and into new areas of crime.

No longer able to conduct brazen robberies, the gangs have turned to "other activities that require a better level of organization," Rivera said.

And although the graffiti is gone and the walls are blank, said Guatemala City resident Aura Escobar, "we still hear gunshots every day." E-mail to a friend E-mail to a friend

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

[English]

A while ago on the History Channel I saw a documentary about MS13. They got interviews with members that turned informant to help the cops for a lesser sentence. They gave up the entire workings of the gang. Was interesting, and disgusting at the same time...

[zero point monkey]

What angers me is the amount of innocent lives are ended by these bastards. I have had three tours in OIF and one in OEF dealing with insurgent types. In my opinion these "homegrown terrorist" represent a threat just as great as any other terror group.

[grog18b]

They are dangerous, dangerous people. Fortunately, we only had the Bloods in the county I used to work in. Always assume they are going to try to kill you. You won't be disappointed. I've had to assist-transport a few for court. Always use high security hinge cuffs, and never use a belly belt. Always securly cuff them with hands behind them. Never transport them alone, and always have someone in the back seat with "eyes on" at all times. Serch them frequently, and search your vehicle before and after transporting. Search them whenever they have been out of YOUR sight for any period of time. I've actually received compliments from a few. You could see in their eyes, they were looking for any weakness or kindness. As long as you are "all business" and keep them under control, they won't test you. If they think you are weak, or not paying attention to them... look out.

[Spinner]

I've heard they've really established a presence in the east, especially around Virginia and surrounding states. They haven't really established themselves here in the midwest, although I've heard they've branched out in recent years.

They're total nihilists, as I understand it. While they probably desire to live, like most people, if it comes down to it they don't really care one way or the other. As long as they can take somebody with them. And I've heard they have no problem making threats to cops, and making it known.

[zero point monkey]

absolutely right. Much of the news feed on gang activity in the southeast has been about these guys. I keep asking myself if current policy is doing enough to counter the ill and debilitating effect of these punks and the answer I keep getting is no.

Spinner is correct: They are a threat to cops, matter of fact they have killed a bunch too.

[RickyRecon]

"These days we can't even go out onto the street, where the police look at us and we end up dead,"

Awe. Poor persecuted little gang members. Someone should hold a march for them.

That ends in machine gun fire.

[Scotty]

It's a little unnerving but there's MS13 tags all over the neighborhood next to mine. Sometimes it overflows into mine. I've been stopped by road blocks IN my neighborhood where they're searching for gang members.

Scotty

[RGR.Montcalm]

After 2 tours in Honduras, i can tell you that these guys don't care about anything but being on top.

We (JTFB) had to put San Pedro Sula, arguably the nicest town in Honduras off limits to all U.S. personnel after several incidents there- none involving U.S. troops but 1 incident sticks to me; a tour bus full of people were killed near SPS and the take wasn't much, it was more about killing gringos - in this case i think it was some Norwegian tourists.

A real shame because otherwise its a nice town with lots of malls, shopping resataurants, etc...

One mile long strip there, on the manin highway, is a 'do not stop' area due to the level of violence in the area. Soldiers going to the Port of Cortes (Puerto Cortes) are armed always.

There is a former Ranger that lives down there that runs an orphange/safe house for families of victims- he works with the wife of the former president of Hondo to resettle these kids wherethey can- with their families, or others

A real shame...

[bmbsqd]

There was a very informative piece on TV this weekend about gangs in the military. One of the concerns was the training they receive then take back to the streets when the get out. A vidwo was shown of a shootout and how organized and well-trained the gang members where....all were former mililtary. MS13 was mentioned quite a bit. I was surprised how many gang members there are in the military, and even more surprised at the military's attitude about it. Many humvees were shown with gang tags.

One good part of the report was about a young man, former gang member, who received the Navy Cross in OIF and was at a gathering of other war's Navy Cross recipients.

I'll try to tract down the exact name of the report and what channel, for reference.

[KidA]

Here's what some of these asshounds are doing in the Northern VA area:

http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=502844&nid=25

[SOTB]

Here's what some of these asshounds are doing in the Northern VA area:The unborn child is certainly a victim, but I fail to see that she was....

[FinsUp]

The unborn child is certainly a victim, but I fail to see that she was....
There was a show on this the other day. I think it was Gangland on History channel. They showed how she wanted out of the gang, put her in witness protection, then she would get lonely and call the gang up over and over. I feel sorry for her unborn child.

[KidA]

There was a show on this the other day. I think it was Gangland on History channel. They showed how she wanted out of the gang, put her in witness protection, then she would get lonely and call the gang up over and over. I feel sorry for her unborn child.

Eh, I don't. The kid is probably better off never having been born, esp. considering the lifestyle he or she would have been born into.

My post wasn't to get any sympathy for this chick since it's clear she was playing one side against the other, but just to show an example of how ruthless these guys are - killing one's own pregnant girlfriend ... there are other exploits but this one was just at the top of google.

[SOTB]

My post wasn't to get any sympathy for this chick since it's clear she was playing one side against the other, but just to show an example of how ruthless these guys are - killing one's own pregnant girlfriend....As you state, no sympathy was elicited for the GF -- but at the same time, I have a hard time categorizing the killing of a pregnant GF as a threat to national security.

MS13 is a threat -- so much so that the nations to our south had to take it on as one of the -- if not THE MOST -- dangerous security threat to their individual countries. I believe that their ties to narcos and illegal alien smuggling make them a threat for terrorist smuggling as well.

But I do want to be careful and state that I base my rationale for that threat on the comments I made, vice that they are capable of inter/intra gang violence....

[Carl Spackler]

Declare ALL gangs terrorists and hunt them domestically. They can be stopped. Problem is every ACLU type organization would protect them with crys of civil rights violations and whatever else. I think we have gone soft on our resolve.

[zero point monkey]

Declare ALL gangs terrorists and hunt them domestically. They can be stopped. Problem is every ACLU type organization would protect them with crys of civil rights violations and whatever else. I think we have gone soft on our resolve.

You got my vote brother.

[Greenhat]

Hmmmm... wonder how much for a hunting license?

[mdb23]

We have MS13 here. Very ruthless, very, very well organized. They were robbing Mexican owned businesses in the Hispanic part of the city right and left. Little bastards would simultaneously hit 3 or 4 businesses at the extact same f'ing time, all dressed alike, all targeting Spanish speaking only businesses, hoping that the owners (who are mostly illegals) wouldn't report it to police.

They use young kids to do their shit, too....... 14-16, knowing that we can't really do shit to them when we catch them.

MS13 is bad news, much worse than the other gangs that I've dealt with....Most of the other gangs prey on each other while fighting over drug turf.... MS13 preys on the community itself. Different ballgame.

[T-Rock]

It's a little unnerving but there's MS13 tags all over the neighborhood next to mine.

Don’t know if it’s wannabes or the real McCoy, but those tags are showing up roughly an hour to the west of you as well……while frequenting the local convenient store the other evening, I could’ve sworn I was in a third world country………just reinforces the decision to obtain that CCH permit.

[Terminator2]

I've been interested in learning more about these pukes since I'm going into law enforcement next year.

I had read (on a National Geographic website) awhile back that MS-13 had actually, taken full, shall we say, police, political, and administrative control of some villages and towns in Central America and that the local authorities, either due to corruption or just plain being no match for the Maras, were helpless to stop them. Is this true? Also:

1) Does anyone here see them trying to do the same thing to small towns in America? Could you see them carrying out any kind of insurgency anywhere in the U.S. and/or Central America?

2) Are they more of the vain of someone like Pablo Escobar or the Russia Mob, or would you equate them with a terrorist group? Or what about a "barbarian hoard?" (just ravages everything, kills, rapes, goes).

3) Have they made pushes into neighborhoods believed to be safe?

The reason I'm wondering is because they've been a threat to the general public rather than just each other, I'm just wondering if maybe they want more than just drug dealing turf and a protection racket.

[ZAT]

I've been interested in learning more about these pukes since I'm going into law enforcement next year.

I had read (on a National Geographic website) awhile back that MS-13 had actually, taken full, shall we say, police, political, and administrative control of some villages and towns in Central America and that the local authorities, either due to corruption or just plain being no match for the Maras, were helpless to stop them. Is this true? Also:

Take this with a HUGE grain of salt as I am basing this on infor glemed form news/ documentaries... and have not had direct dealings with MS13.

Dont see why that would not be possible. Lots of towns in Colombia were/are Cartel owned. If it suits their business goals why wouldnt they do it?

1) Does anyone here see them trying to do the same thing to small towns in America? Could you see them carrying out any kind of insurgency anywhere in the U.S. and/or Central America?.
Most likely thing to happen would be covert control of a small town. They have and are evolving from the nothing to loose tatoo faced punks into a more "syndicate" like organization. If it suits their business goals you can bet that they will try to gain control over towns through winning/rigging elections and such. I dont see them using overt force to take over a town. The start of this kind of movement will/has start at the southern border where they can fit in better. Small border towns also offer them access to the business they are into. Drug and people smuggling for now.

The insurgeny thing, the armed kind that is, is kind of a stretch. To what end would they want to cause that much grief. They have discovered that blending in and not drawing unnecessary attention to themselves makes it easier to conduct business; hence the attempted departure from the tatoo faces, and punk ass behavior. Cause a HUGE ruckus will detract from business and bring down some serious wrath, not onyl from the various government agencies, but also very possibly from the general pop which is NOT good for business. Unless they have some form of foreign handler, the insurgency thing is unlikely at this stage.


2) Are they more of the vain of someone like Pablo Escobar or the Russia Mob, or would you equate them with a terrorist group? Or what about a "barbarian hoard?" (just ravages everything, kills, rapes, goes).

I think that they have evolved out of the barbarian hoard phase and have discovered that there is good money to be made out there and that sticking out like a sore thumb doesnt help bring that money home. They are still predisposed to use indiscriminate violence which puts them into the late teenage stage of mob development. You know that stage where a person has gone through the rebel wiothout a cause stage and is slowly figuring themselves out, but just hasnt qute gotten there yet. If uncontrolled, they will evolve into what the Italian mob, evolved into.

3) Have they made pushes into neighborhoods believed to be safe?

What is a safe neighborhood??? No such thing. I am willing to bet my left nut that their handywork is seen in every neighborhood in the USA. Its not the tatoo faced vandals that are the true threat. Got illegals mowing your neighbors yard, doing his roof... There is a chance that MS13 got that person into the country. Got drugs in your school/neighborhood? Just cause the neighborhood isnt tagged to death doesnt mean that they arent working it.

The reason I'm wondering is because they've been a threat to the general public rather than just each other, I'm just wondering if maybe they want more than just drug dealing turf and a protection racket.

They definitely want more than simple drug money.