Advice on power saws

[HmtPD2]

A few months ago, I posted regarding Bus Assaults and recieved some great ideas.

As I am sure many of the Officers on this forum have had to deal with....the subject of security screens doors. But more specifically in a SWAT scenario. A few weeks ago, our SWAT team performed a search warrant on a little ghetto apt. The apt had a recesed door with a security screen. The pry bar would not fit into the recession. This required the team to make a living room window entry.....which....went quite well actually. Anyway...any of you SWAT guys ever used a power saw to cut away a security screen. ie. cut out the door knob and locks, or cut out the hinges.

Looking for any problems you have run into, any dangers, or time constraints. And, lastly...what type of saw worked, if any, and what types of blades, and what ever else you feel the need to mention.

[RECON5]

HmtPD-

I have never used a saw of any kind to make entry(although I have seen the adds), but I have used the TKO or Breaching Rounds. I am not sure how familiar you are with these rounds but they proved successfull for us in several entries with minimal cost and training (as compared to a saw)

We used the TKO Rounds manufactured by Def-Tec. There are similar rounds available now I understand. We used this round with a short barrelled shotgun utilizing a pistol grip and "stand-off" attatchment. The round produced very little recoil and is filled with magnesium. The round basically desinigrates the locking mechanism(or atlest enough of it to disable it), while this was not always the case (re-inforced locks, stainless steel dead bolt throws), it always done the job for us. It utilized an approximated 8-10 inch stand off attachment that could be placed directly on the door when fired. This proved to be a valuable tool especially in scenarios that proved to be limited in space. It also was not a big concern for delaying the entry. This weapon should be designated for this purpose only, there by taking one shotgun out of the arsenal, but could be slung quickly after use not tying up a team member with securing equipment if it was not needed.

I have heard some concerns about pieces of the locking device or round exiting the door and hitting person on the other side though they came from folks, who had never used the round or seen them used. I have never witnessed this occur, and used this round, during real time entries, as well as training, for over 4 1/2 years.

Just curious, a Halogen Bar would not have worked even if set with a Slammer or Ram ? Forgive me, we were not well funded and to come up with solutions for these type of problems on a low cost budget. Our Adm: "A saw....saw....your suppose to be putting them in jail not teaching arts and crafts."

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REMEMBER 1*

[HmtPD2]

Reference you question about the ram. It was on of those doors you hope you only see in training. It was a "Heavy duty" security screen with three deadbolts. One bolt in the middle, and the other two about one foot above and below the center lock..there was no door knob. The door was recessed about three feet into the wall, and was only about 4 feet wide. There was only enough room for one officer to fit into the recession. The door frame was also reinforced. The door over lapped the frame, so there was not enough room to fit the pry tool between the frame and the door. So....I thought....cut the door off!
I believe the officer who had the pry tool could not get the tool to set, and there was not enough room to swing the sledge hammer.
The window worked well, but it just happened to have a large livingroom window.

Thanks for the prompt response.

We use "Avon" rounds. I believe that is the brand name. But is exactly what you mentioned.

[MP18D]

Hemet:

In my dept we kinda invented a device now called "rip n ram" modeled after the sliding ram type breach devices then on the market.
The business end was a steel hook; it was basically crew served but we had a couple big guys who could handle it solo.
The hook was FORCEFULLY inserted into the screen near the bottom, the hitch pin pulled and the slide forced rearward. End result was screen door was bent in the middle which combined with the force disengeged the striker bolt(s) from doorjamb.
When we began w/direct support to Narcs in the late 80's, all the rock cocaine folks had those dumbass screen doors. It took us about a year to come up with this tool. We tried all the others, fire dept stuff without much luck.
We always had a backup to this mechanical breech, usually a ballistic breech, ie Avon/TKO rounds. Often had problems with these tho..
Of course also had an alternate breech point in the OPORD.
Hope this helps.
Mike

[Gunpoint]

Grappling hook attached to a Suburban...would that work? We've used it on some doors in South Central that can't be breached with Hydra-Rams, Hollie tools, or any combination thereof.

[WS-G]

I can tell you from my prior construction experience that any good heavy-duty, professional-quality circular saw, fitted with a masonry blade would have sliced through all three of those dead-bolts in way less than a minute. Five seconds per dead-bolt to be breached is realistic.

Electrical power is the main limitation — apart from the fact that it's noisy as Hell. A lead-acid battery with inverter could provide a portable — and adequate — source of power versus the usual extension cords and generator.

[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 10-18-2000).]

[RECON5]

HmtPD-

No your right, sounds like one you only want to see in training. I have ran into similar situations (recessed door, space limitation), but this one was re-inforced with a "Chicago Block". Our best guess was the same solution 1811 gave. Grappling hook attached to a suburban. Works good and quick, does not give up element of surprise with noise, just make sure there are no motorcycles parked in the front yard. LOL - had a front door running down the street with a motorcycle one time. The perimeter guys said they could not hollar at the driver due to being overcome with laughter. Good luck, and if you find a better solution let us know.


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REMEMBER 1*

[Sharky]

A grappling hook tied to a suburban. Now THAT brings a smile to MY face. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

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F.I.D.O.

[MP18D]

Actually...
LAPD D Plt used the 'Burb idea a few years ago...maybe still doin it??
They had a video of several entries that utilized this method....was f*&kin hilarious!!!
Had all kinda misadventures and dramas associated with it..Including the motorcycle one. Maybe 1811 can get ahold of it??
mike

[DFC5343]

Actually check with the fire eaters....they have many saws out there that can cut bout any thing and are light weight. They use a blade like a masonary but different composition. Its called a radiac....can cut hard tool steel. Stay away from aluminum....blade clog and fragments....oh ya don't forget yer eye pro...

[Sharky]

I remember fast-roping a rip-saw into JRTC one time..........along with an M-60 and various other accoutrements. Ahhhhh yeah, the good old days.......... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif
Still love the suburban idea though. Outstanding initiative.

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F.I.D.O.

[Gunpoint]

Lessons learned from Suburban grappling hook pulls:

- Clear the down range area of motorcycles and dogs

- Slack in the grappling hook rope is BAD BAD BAD.

- Use static vs. dynamic rope on your hook (see number 2 above)

- Ensure liability budget will support repairing everything a 60 pound steel door travelling at 30 MPH will break

- Don't let anyone named AJ, Mario, or Cole drive the Suburban

Out//

[RECON5]

LMFAO ......Now there you have it....true experience no opinion there. You can't make up stuff that good.

[HmtPD2]

Well, here is what I have found out....I went to the firefighters and got this.....

Stihl TS 350 Rotary Saw. Reffered to as a
K-12

Has a Stihl Steel Carbide smooth blade, 20mm
The cutting edge of the blade has no teeth, it is smooth. Gas operated. Weighs Approx 15-20lbs. Deffinitely managable in a SWAT operation.

We are set to train with on 11-2-00. The fire guys said..(After they shut off the TV and got out of the lazy boys...Kidding.) that it is used to cut off car doors etc. They stated that they ran into a similar situation in a fire with a security door and that it took about 5 seconds to cut the door.

They stated they ripped the door on the hinge side from top to bottom, then just pulled the door away.

I'll brief after the training. They said there are definitely some safety concerns with the saw that need to be noted such as kick back, what to do if the blade binds, etc. They stated there are no certifications required, you just have to be shown and practice...

More to follow....

[benelli]

If that window is too tough, what about a secondary entry point? If we can't break through in a relatively short time, rather than compromise the team, we just find another access...

[LRSC Grunt]

http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif TOOLS!! WHO SAID TOOLS???

I love playing in the adault toy section of sears.

I think this is what he is talking about.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/browse/-/hi/282422/102-3633214-7080927

[FLTCREW1]

Originally posted by 1811:
Lessons learned from Suburban grappling hook pulls:
- Clear the down range area of motorcycles and dogs
- Slack in the grappling hook rope is BAD BAD BAD.
- Use static vs. dynamic rope on your hook (see number 2 above)
- Ensure liability budget will support repairing everything a 60 pound steel door travelling at 30 MPH will break
- Don't let anyone named AJ, Mario, or Cole drive the Suburban


Now THAT would be some funny shit to see!!
(that's better than that old guy getting pissed about that ticket)
ROFLMFAO.

NSDQ



[This message has been edited by FLTCREW1 (edited 10-29-2000).]

[Swat1]

1811 said:

"- Don't let anyone named AJ, Mario, or Cole drive the Suburban"

Well I resemble that remark being my last name is the last one mentioned. Fortunately we do not have too many security doors here in Oregon so we rarely have to rip them off the hinges, however, our ram, which we have welded a nice smiley face on the business end of, gets quite a bit of use!!! LOL

Swat1*