Fox Labs OC Spray

[jnc36rcpd]

Is anyone using Fox Labs OC spray? We've had great success with Bodyguard 5%. Our allied (or rival, depending on your rank) county agency seems to do well with Punch. The reviews I read about Fox suggest that it's the chemical equivalent of a light sabre. Any opinions from operators/trainers who carry the stuff. Be safe.

[WS-G]

Had a fresh 4-oz. can of First Defense MK-4 (0.18 % capsaicinoids) up until this last Memorial Day weekend, when I just about emptied it on a certain belligerent drunk who had twisted off (this was not duty-related either — I won't elaborate on a public board) on a third party. Took about 30 seconds to have any effect at all. The individual produced a 6" Old Hickory boning knife and rushed me with it even as I was applying a steady stream of OC to his face. He finally doubled over, dropped the knife and bolted the other way (for the nearest water source) only when he had reached a point that was just half a metre beyond the effective range of my ASP (which was already deployed and ready for action). To put it another way, this person was one-tenth of a second away from getting cozy with the All Steel Pipe. The OC did its job, though not as quickly as I would have liked, but as it all turned out in the end, I didn't even have to put my hands on him.

I decided then and there to never buy that brand again (needed something stronger and/or more fast-acting), and have now replaced it with Aerko International Punch II (0.675% capsaicin, 2M SHU http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif ).



[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 12-22-2000).]

[Sharky]

I hear "Liquid Bullet" works pretty good but haven't tried it. It's a mixture of 15% OC and military CS. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif When I was a deputy we had MK IV Police Magnums 10%. That shit would stop King Kong in his tracks. The only time I ever seen it fail was when I sprayed a "mental" in the jail intake who was off his medication. I sprayed him 3 times. Not sure why. I just couldn't believe it wasn't fazing him. After I sprayed him for the third time he just wiped it out of his eyes and told me "you better think of something else cause that stuff aint gonna cut it." I threw the can down and tackled him. Big mistake. He was strong as an ox. Thank god reinforcements arrived. In the BP we are issued 5% Capstun which is a joke. The instructor sprayed me with it and I laughed at him and suggested that he check the expiration date on the stuff. When I was sprayed with the Police Magnum I honestly thought I was gonna die. It knocked me down instantly and I thought it was all over for me. Felt like a blowtorch was being held in my face and I couldn't get away from it.

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F.I.D.O.

[dsumner]

Let me find out which brand we are using I've taken a direct hit in the eyes with the stuff, and it burned for two days. Getting in the shower was really ruff that night.

[grrlcop74]

"Freeze" works well too. Can't remember who makes it. To carry it here, you must be sprayed with that specific spray in training. One guy screamed like a bitch and fell over the hood of his squad car. It peeled the paint off.

Kristen

[dsumner]

Same deal with us. To get certified you have to get hit with it. Samething with the stun guns (three hits, and if you are on the tac team they have to do a takedown on you with it), the ICE shield (one hit-it will leave marks for three to four months).

I'm just waiting to see if they make us take a hit with some of our impact munitions.

[mdb23]

We use the Punch II (M-4) brand of OC.

How effective is it? Hold on and I will give it a little self-test........

Hmmmmmmm.....kind of minty..........seems to have a bit of spice to it.........let me gargle with it and see if that helps.......gggggggggggaaaggggggaaaaaaagggggg....h mmmmmmm........OH DEAR GOD!!!!HELP!!!!!MY EYES!!!!!!MY EYES!!!!!!!!!!!

mdb23

[Tracy]

Preface: I'm not a Cop. I was in SF for a while...

We used some stuff called CapStun. Came in 5% and 10% solutions. The one thing we discovered was that scrawny refugees (Eithiopians, Kurds, and Somalis) don't respond very well the 10% solution.

Those ding-a-lings ate it like candy. Blunt trauma, however, was more effective; i.e. taking the spray bottle and smacking them up side the head with it.

Anybody do a study on oleoresin capsicum and physical condition of suspects? I'm wondering if the effect might be limited based nutritional/physical condition...

[Sharky]

Chief, It could be that CAPSTUN just ain't worth a damn. See my post above. It definitely affects different people in different ways. It didn't affect me very much at all, but a supervisor was sprayed with the same can and swelled up pretty bad. Who knows.

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F.I.D.O.

[WS-G]

Say, Sharky, do you know what so-called "inert ingredient(s)" is/are used as the vehicle for CAPSTUN offhand? E.g.: trichloroethylene, isopropanol, propylene glycol.

The reaction your supervisor had could have been due to one or more of the solvents in which the OC is disolved rather than the OC itself.

Speaking from personal experience, I discovered the hard way that I'm hypersensitive to propylene glycol. I found this out about three years ago when I was using common OTC calamine lotion to treat some mild poison ivy blisters I'd gotten on my hands. Instead of relieving the symptoms, they got worse. The standard case of minor poison ivy became a ghastly weeping dermatitis in which my hands looked more like a set of boxing gloves with pores leaking lymphatic fluid nonstop — one could actually feel waves of heat coming off my hands from several inches away — and the itch was by far the most intolerable I had ever felt in my life. In fact, the pain induced by holding the backs of my hands three inches from the IR lamp in my bathroom was a welcome relief from that itch (yes, it really was that bad). The condition was resolved only after a five-day course of IM and oral steroids.

This is by no means an idiosyncratic reaction; over the past several years, propylene glycol has been cropping up as a replacement for petrolatum in damn near every topical ointment and cosmetic product on the market, including Camo-Compacs (which I don't use for this reason). Dermatologists are seeing a lot of similar cases!

There's been some effort on the part of dermatologists and some of their patients to persuade the Food and Drug Administration to reconsider its past approval of this stuff as a food/drug/cosmetic additive, but so far the FDA refuses to reverse its claim that propylene glycol is harmless.

Consider that this substance and its close relative ethylene glycol are the main ingredients in antifreeze and brake fluid, and one can see that, yes, the FDA is really looking out for us. (yeah, right!)

Bottom line is that the OC itself is not your only concern when decontaminating exposed personnel. People can and do have adverse reactions from the solvents used as "inert" ingredients.

[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 12-23-2000).]

[Sharky]

Bill, all my CAPSTUN has written on it other than Oleoresin Capsicum is Isobutane (propellant) and Isopropyl Alcohol (vehicle). Good thing I looked at it as I didn't realize before that it used alcohol. My understanding was that everyone was trying to get away from using alcohol as a propellant in favor of something non-flammable. This was due to an incident involving members of NYPD who sprayed some guy and then hit him with a stun gun almost immediately after which produced a human torch and the inevitable lawsuit. Good info on the "inert" ingredients though. I'll let him know about what you said and see what happens. We might need to inquire with ZARC who manufactures CAPSTUN about this. There is also a web address on the can of www.zarc.com (http://www.zarc.com) Maybe they can provide more info. Let me know if you find out anything more and I will do the same.

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F.I.D.O.

[RECON5]

Used both the "Freeze" (Freeze + P), and "Punch II". Had a guy stand and fight then turn and run after being sprayed with Punch II. Caught him as he was preparing to run passed my marked car. Seemed like a good place to put the "Bill Bates" on him. The Freeze + P works pretty well, but we all know this stuff only works 100% of the time on cops. (LOL)


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REMEMBER 1*

[FLTCREW1]

Originally posted by grrlcop74:
"Freeze" works well too. Can't remember who makes it.

If it is "Freeze +P" you are referring to, it is made by AERKO International out of Ft Lauderdale, FL.

It's a 1% CS 1% OC mix in a solvent base with an untraviolet die. You have to try it to really appreciate it. (it works 2 ways, makes your eyes slam shut and you have to actually concentrate to breathe)
Note: it is designed to absorb through the skin very, very quickly in the face area, it doesn't work worth a shit with females that wear alot of makeup!



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NSDQ

[Sharky]

Good to see you're back home. How was leave? Your snowbird has been representing your unit in your absence. LOL.........

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F.I.D.O.

[grrlcop74]

That's the stuff Flt1. Makeup, you say?? I'll have to remember that if I ever have to suffer through that again. I'll show up looking like Tammy frickin' Faye.

Kristen
"Get in the kitchen and make me some pie!"

[WS-G]

Originally posted by FLTCREW1:
It's a 1% CS 1% OC mix.... it works 2 ways, makes your eyes slam shut and you have to actually concentrate to breathe.

The advertising I've seen on this product implies a synergistic effect from the CS:OC combination. Can anyone point to any actual research that might support this, or does this seem to be more hype?

[jnc36rcpd]

I've never heard about any research behind the OC/CS blends. It seems more a matter of faith than science. I understand that the blends do make decontamination more difficult. Be safe and Happy New Year.

[grrlcop74]

Like I stated above, that shit peels paint off cars...if it doesn't work on a perp, then it's time to lock and load or run like hell.

Kristen

[Sharky]

Amen trick........ I mean sista.

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F.I.D.O.

[jnc36rcpd]

I wouldn't doubt your opinion, Kris, but I think the OC component probably was much more effective than the CS.

Discussing the "stopping power" of chemical agents becomes as complex as ammunition debates. The only advantage is that chemical sprays are used much more often than deadly force.

Does anyone know what brand/percentage/SHU is used in "The Option" or the "Tigerlight"? The reviews compare its effectiveness to Conan the Barbarian or (regards to grrlcop) Xena, Warrior Princess using the sword,but most reviews say that.

Be safe.

[FLTCREW1]

Originally posted by Sharky:
Good to see you're back home. How was leave? Your snowbird has been representing your unit in your absence. LOL.........


Leave was great, got snowed in, had to extend, <grin>

REF: Snowbird, So it would appear, the 3rd is approaching rapidly (1st day back to work).


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NSDQ

[FLTCREW1]

Originally posted by William M Salter:
Can anyone point to any actual research that might support this,

Check with TAC (Tactical Advantage Consultant) out of Knoxville, Ky. They may have some Data for you, if not you can contact AERKO direct at:
1-800-565-8475
3410 N.E. 5TH AVENUE
FT. LAUDERDALE. FL 33334

Talk to a guy by the name of Kevin Dallett and tell his secretary that "Sharky" sent ya. LOL




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NSDQ

[Sharky]

Oh you BASTARD!!!!!!!! Oh god, it's freakin ON now!!!!!! Just remember, payback is a BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!! ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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F.I.D.O.

[FLTCREW1]

Sharky,
I really don't understand where all this hostility comes from. I'll have you know that girl thinks you treated her like a lady, and has a very high opinion of you, ROFLMAO

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NSDQ

[Sharky]

Yeah, I'll just bet she does. I have something special in store for you. <Evil Grin>

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F.I.D.O.