Someone Wanted to Know Why McCain is Unworthy? Here You Go

[magician]

http://usvetdsp.com/eagle/viewtopic.php?t=2835

These guys are entitled to their opinions.

[SFS0AVN]

If you look at the history of American POWs back to WWII you will find that our Government has a bad track record in their recovery. So, it's not just the fault of the few, it's the fault of the many in our Government who have let down those who laid it all on the line.

[The Corporate Guy]

Assume for a moment we end up with a Clinton vs. McCain presidential race...which I believe is quite likley...would he still be unworthy?

(This is a general question, not specifically directed at Magician)

[Silverbullet]

So the choice is btwn who sucks less?

Shows how far our country has fallen when that is our choice.

One's an outright socialist. The other has baggage that includes a ban on free speech and absolutely no belief in securing our borders.....Sad.

[RGR.Montcalm]

Assume for a moment we end up with a Clinton vs. McCain presidential race...which I beleive is quite likley...would he still be unworthy?

(This is a general question, not specifically directed at Magician)

I think the analogy of an Edsel compared to a Mustang (67 Fastback) would be appropriate.

The Edsel was controversial car at best with odd features like a button transmission whereas the Mustang was popular because it was well equipped, solid performer that sold to Viet Nam bound or returning Soldiers and was and is still popular today.

Both were Ford products but the Edsel was ill conceived just like Hillary...IMHO

[Forestboy]

So the choice is btwn who sucks less?


I hate not voting FOR someone, seems I always have to vote against someone.....

[SFS0AVN]

I hate not voting FOR someone, seems I always have to vote against someone.....

Well said.

[The Corporate Guy]

So the choice is btwn who sucks less?

Would one choice suck less enough to energize enough voters to ensure that the one that sucked more wasn't elected?

[magician]

For me, what resonates the most is the charge that McCain closed the records.

There is no doubt that being a POW is not a trivial matter. But when some of those who are qualified to judge him do so, and harshly, I have to pay attention. I am not saying that I will judge him as well. I was not there. But I have to pay attention to what others have to say, and then, because the guy is running for the highest office in the land, I have to weigh it along with all other factors.

McCain is really old. I really hope that he does not get the nomination. Look at W. You can see how much the guy aged under the burden, and he is a far younger man.

I do not like any of our choices. Not one.

I think that there are a ton of folks out there who feel the same, and many of them are supporting Dr. Ron Paul. Not so much because they subscribe to his viewpoints, but because they are expressing dissatisfaction with the system as it stands, and with the choices that we have.

If I lived in America, there is no doubt that I would be up in the high country, armed to the teeth.

[RGR.Montcalm]

Chuck Norris has stated publicly that he thinks John McCain is 'too old" for the White House:

Mike Huckabee is distancing himself from those comments.

Is it about age or qualifications or the platform they're running on?

Has everyone forgotten that every elected President in modern times had a platform that they ran on and that platform changed the minute they took office?

The Presidential candidates may promise the moon but they can't provide it without the House and Senate on board (oh yeah, and taxpayers willing to pay for it).

I'm not thrilled about the field but will be satisfied to vote for a 'compromise' candidate if they are qualified with real leadership ability- not something they are claiming because they lived in the White House or served a term (or less) in Congress.

IMHO, There is no perfect candidate but there are a lot that aren't keepers and need to be thrown back..

[cb88]

I do not like any of our choices. Not one.




Pretty much sums it up for me. :(

[DuckMarshal]

Pretty much sums it up for me. :(


Agree as well. On the surface any veteran would be proud to be represented in the White House by someone with McCain's record. Until you figure out he has no intention of fighting our border wars. I am a Bush supporter and a die-hard conservative. Bush is too scared to address illegal immigration either. I guess I will have to settle for a patriot who will continue to ignore our borders.:( I guess it has something to do with those aspiring to that office. It seems to attract a bunch of self-serving egomaniacs.

[Greenhat]

If you look at the history of American POWs back to WWII you will find that our Government has a bad track record in their recovery. So, it's not just the fault of the few, it's the fault of the many in our Government who have let down those who laid it all on the line.

John McCain made a choice to turn his back on his brothers.

I, for one, will not vote for him. Not even against Clinton.

[C-M-R]

John McCain made a choice to turn his back on his brothers.

I, for one, will not vote for him. Not even against Clinton.

Me neither and I was a fan back in 2000. A neighbor was over earlier this afternoon and we decided that if it comes down to Clinton or McCain we are writing in our candidates.

Starting with SOTB :cool:

[NightLandNav]

Although I am similarly discontented by the prospect of casting a vote for the least disturbing of two choices, I find some measure of solace in the fact that I have the choice to make at all.

edited to add: If enough of us wrote in SOTB...

[C-M-R]

Although I am similarly discontented by the prospect of casting a vote for the least disturbing of two choices, I find some measure of solace in the fact that I have the choice to make at all.

Why? Simply because some countries don't get a choice. Well, we don't live in those places. We live here and the options we are being given are shitty. As Americans we know shit when we see it. A choice between McCain or Clinton is shit. Dammit.

[magician]

C

Is it about age or qualifications or the platform they're running on?

Has everyone forgotten that every elected President in modern times had a platform that they ran on and that platform changed the minute they took office?

The Presidential candidates may promise the moon but they can't provide it without the House and Senate on board (oh yeah, and taxpayers willing to pay for it).



It has nothing to do with qualifications, platform, or anything else.

It has to do with the Illuminati.

Just ask Dick Cheney.

:)

[KidA]

Starting with SOTB :cool:

Woman please. You know you're writing in the Kid.

Don't be frontin'

[C-M-R]

Has everyone forgotten that every elected President in modern times had a platform that they ran on and that platform changed the minute they took office?

..

I don't know about the "Illuminati" but I do know that GWB had like three or four objectives that he campaigned on back in 2000 and he saw every one of them come to pass. Look back at his campaign and see for yourself.


KidA - Sorry, I always vote for the Tallest guy...:p

[MikeC2W]

So the choice is btwn who sucks less?

Shows how far our country has fallen when that is our choice.

One's an outright socialist. The other has baggage that includes a ban on free speech and absolutely no belief in securing our borders.....Sad.


Incredible isn't it.... who sucks less, what a fucking choice.:mad:

[MikeC2W]

It has nothing to do with qualifications, platform, or anything else.

It has to do with the Illuminati.

Just ask Dick Cheney.

:)



ROTFLMMFAO - Illuminati aye....

[Ole crusty bastard]

Besides dropping the ball on the POWs, I can't help think that he still has some issues with being a POW himself, I know I sure would.

[CDRODA396]

Incredible isn't it.... who sucks less, what a fucking choice.:mad:

Electile Dysfunction : the inability to become aroused over any of the choices for president put forth by either party in the 2008 election year.

Seems like this is going to be going around alot this year!

I'm in for SOTB!!!:D

[snaquebite]

His voting record on Veteran's and other service issues sucks also. I don't trust him at all.

[Spinner]

I want a consitutional amendment to have the choice of "None of the Above" listed on the ballot.

[magician]

I learned everything that I needed to know about him from Ross Perot.

[Parajuevos]

John McCain made a choice to turn his back on his brothers.

I, for one, will not vote for him. Not even against Clinton.

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg is putting out alot of feelers.

He is a very analytical man. He is studying his options and if they look promising he may enter the race. If he does, he may well be a reincarnation of Ross Perot and assure that we have another Clinton in the White House.

If Bloomberg enters the race, you may not have to make a decision between McCain and Clinton but that will be dependant on how you feel about Bloomberg.

If Bloomberg enters the race, it will be a whole new ball game.

[NightLandNav]

Why? Simply because some countries don't get a choice. Well, we don't live in those places. We live here and the options we are being given are shitty. As Americans we know shit when we see it. A choice between McCain or Clinton is shit. Dammit.

Yes, for the very reasons you stated, some don't, and I don't live there.

That said, I would ask you to consider my choice of words making those statements in my previous post. "Discontented", "disturbing", "some measure"...

Hardly an indication of apathetic satisfaction on my part for the current situation.

I assure you, accepting the difference between what I can and cannot change does not include my indifference.

[cb88]

The race is still too open to be putting it as a "McCain/Hillary" contest.

It will be interesting to see how it looks after Super Tuesday. I would say I'd reserve my crying for then, but I'm already crying over the pisspoor choices we have regardless.

GH, I will have to disagree with you, I'd rather see McCain in the White House if it came down to that, at least we know he wouldn't sell us to China or turn our country into a socialist nation with all of the "gimme" programs.

[Greenhat]

GH, I will have to disagree with you, I'd rather see McCain in the White House if it came down to that, at least we know he wouldn't sell us to China or turn our country into a socialist nation with all of the "gimme" programs.


You mean, like his brothers knew he wouldn't abandon them?

The President doesn't control social programs, Congress does. And McCain already demonstrated that he is quite willing to sell his brothers out to Vietnam, Laos and China. What makes you think that you are any more important to him then they were?

[NightLandNav]

OK, realistically.

Not voting accomplishes nothing.

A write in candidate has the potential to be symbolic if enough people write in the same name. For it to be more than symbolic would require more write in votes than Nader ever got, and his name was actually on the ballot.

What remains is a vote for either or.

Even when it is a choice between the most digestible of two turds (grotesque analogy I know, but no less accurate) each must vote their own conscience, but vote we should. It is difficult to find sympathy for the complaints of those who do not participate.

The apathy of American voters has long been considered in the strategic planning of candidates for any public office, let alone the highest in the land...for which the strategic skulduggery involved knows no bounds.



Take your pick:

A. Get punched in the face by the UFC heavyweight champion as hard as he can hit.

B. Get hit in the head with a loaded bat by Barry Bonds as hard as he can swing.


And if you don't pick...or try to pick a third...one of the above will be picked for you.

[Greenhat]

If it comes down to McCain and Clinton (and I very much doubt that it will), I'd rather have Clinton as President than McCain. If that means I vote for a Democrat (or my vote is effectively for a Democrat) for the first time since 1976, so be it.

[Remington Raider]

Just got done watching the Democrats debate. It's official. I am clinically depressed.

[Bravo Five Romeo]

I do know that GWB had like three or four objectives that he campaigned on back in 2000 and he saw every one of them come to pass. Look back at his campaign and see for yourself.

Really?
Please... do tell.

[HOLLiS]

I think the analogy of an Edsel compared to a Mustang (67 Fastback) would be appropriate.

The Edsel was controversial car at best with odd features like a button transmission whereas the Mustang was popular because it was well equipped, solid performer that sold to Viet Nam bound or returning Soldiers and was and is still popular today.

Both were Ford products but the Edsel was ill conceived just like Hillary...IMHO



Look at how much a Edsel is worth. But I do agree about Hillary.

The RVN Missing is a big issue. Have you ever check to see how many VC/NVA are missing? I know they are not Americans, but Ordinance can make a body disappear, over time the environment does the same. I doubt anyone is still alive. So how far so we go in search of the unfindable?

Ideally, closure is very important, but does it always happen?

It would be really nice to know, but to what ends?

What about WWII missing, Korean Missing? I just wish there was some simple answer. Sooner or later, one needs to say enough is enough.

BTW, Kerry is not worthy to polish McCain's shoes.

I think the other aspect of this election are the choices.

[67 Fastback]

I think the analogy of an Edsel compared to a Mustang (67 Fastback) would be appropriate. The Mustang was popular because it was well equipped, solid performer that sold to Viet Nam bound or returning Soldiers and was and is still popular today.

Ya know...you're alright :D :D :D

[cb88]

You mean, like his brothers knew he wouldn't abandon them?

The President doesn't control social programs, Congress does. And McCain already demonstrated that he is quite willing to sell his brothers out to Vietnam, Laos and China. What makes you think that you are any more important to him then they were?

So you're saying you expect the congress and the senate to go back to the conservatives controlling it? If not, that means we have some pretty liberal people running the house, the senate and the POTUS of Hillary wins--controlling all of the social programs, the purse strings, etc. Oh, and the gun laws...

That is a very scary thought and not a bet I'm willing to take if my choice is McCain or Hillary.

[Bravo Five Romeo]

Hmmm... so if it comes down to Hillary Clinton v. John McCain, some of you would rather vote for a third party candidate to make a statement.

That worked very well for all the Dems who made a statement voting for Nader in 2000. :rolleyes:

[1026]

McCain is a lib, plain and simple. He's anti tax cut, pro illegal alien, stood against the First Amendment (McCain-Feingold), rogered up for closing GITMO and sides with Lindsey Graham regarding the "rights" of terrorists, saboteurs and spies.

As with pregnancy, there is no half way with conservatism; either you are or you aren't, and McCain isn't.

[The Corporate Guy]

McCain is a lib, plain and simple. He's anti tax cut, pro illegal alien, stood against the First Amendment (McCain-Feingold), rogered up for closing GITMO and sides with Lindsey Graham regarding the "rights" of terrorists, saboteurs and spies.

As with pregnancy, there is no half way with conservatism; either you are or you aren't, and McCain isn't.

Ya' know, moderates are people too. :)

[Greenhat]

So you're saying you expect the congress and the senate to go back to the conservatives controlling it? If not, that means we have some pretty liberal people running the house, the senate and the POTUS of Hillary wins--controlling all of the social programs, the purse strings, etc. Oh, and the gun laws...

That is a very scary thought and not a bet I'm willing to take if my choice is McCain or Hillary.

Not much difference between McCain and Clinton when it comes to most of that stuff. McCain is certainly not a conservative.

And despite how much I despise Hillary, she has demonstrated some willingness to stand up for her principles. McCain? As someone already pointed out, he doesn't have any problem with ignoring the First Amendment, or with turning his back on his fellow POWs (the report from the Senate sub-committee that he and Kerry were on stated that POWs were still held in SE Asia... and recommended forgetting about them). Someone else has pointed out that his voting record when it comes to the military and defense isn't great. As a matter of record, Hillary's is better.

Yeah, I'd take Clinton over McCain. I may not like her, but she has balls.

[HOLLiS]

This is getting to become a depressing election. A critic of the '68 election said, "I don't like those two, give us another two." To bad "none of the above" is not on the ballot.

I guess a lot could happen by the time of the conventions. I hope.

[RAT]

I have never ever been a Ross fan... Ever since House Bill 72 (HB72) in Texas. I was the lead plaintiff. He and I have had butted heads me being 35yr younger than him.

On this issue I will back Ross up 100%.

I would have to go with Clinton over McCain. If rolls were reversed. Hillary has too much ego not to have left anyone behind. She would have used that all the way to the White House. Talk about a huge platform if rolls were reversed and Hillary was a POW...

I am not a fan. But she does have my deference.


RO!!!

[Greenhat]

Fundamentally, politics has become a place that eats its young. The "best and the brightest" rarely are willing to enter that arena. When they do, they don't get the nomination (I think really competent people scare the hell out of the Parties).

[magician]

I will vote for Ron Paul.

When you think about it, this ends up being a vote for Hillary, for whom I will not vote for any reason. I really do not like that corrupt, selfish, power-obsessed creature, and I like her sex maniac husband less. The last thing that I want to see is those idiots back in the White House.

But McCain.... broke faith. For me, there is no greater sin. Time for him to go back to Arizona with his rich wife.

For sickening perspective on the MIA/POW issue, Google for Colonel Tony Peck MIA POW. Read his resignation letter from DIA.

[Bravo Five Romeo]

McCain is a lib, plain and simple. He's anti tax cut, pro illegal alien, stood against the First Amendment (McCain-Feingold), rogered up for closing GITMO and sides with Lindsey Graham regarding the "rights" of terrorists, saboteurs and spies.

As with pregnancy, there is no half way with conservatism; either you are or you aren't, and McCain isn't.
Really?
So you see McCain as being anti-conservative and against the Constitution with the McCain-Feingold Act which was pretty much designed to force accountability in dirty political campaigning... but you see his trying to protect the Constitution by fighting for due process and against torture as being anti-conservative as well.
That seems to be a contradiction... preserve only some parts of the Constitution, disregard others.there is no half way with conservatism; either you are or you aren't"

[RAT]

I will vote for Ron Paul.

When you think about it, this ends up being a vote for Hillary, for whom I will not vote for any reason. I really do not like that corrupt, selfish, power-obsessed creature, and I like her sex maniac husband less. The last thing that I want to see is those idiots back in the White House.

I am having a hard time with Paul right now. I might be able to talk myself into this. Obama scares the hell out of me. I know what Clintion is. I would rather have something I know. Than something I don't know.

But McCain.... broke faith. For me, there is no greater sin. Time for him to go back to Arizona with his rich wife.

I am with you 100%. He broke the faith and that I can not swallow.

For sickening perspective on the MIA/POW issue, Google for Colonel Tony Peck MIA POW. Read his resignation letter from DIA.

Great read.

RO!!!

[Greenhat]

But McCain.... broke faith. For me, there is no greater sin.

Amen, brother.

[magician]

I am having a hard time with Paul right now. I might be able to talk myself into this. Obama scares the hell out of me. I know what Clintion is. I would rather have something I know. Than something I don't know.

I felt the same, but then I asked myself a fundamental question.

Do you really think that Dr. Paul could dismantle the IRS?

Do you really think that he could take America back to isolationism?

I am not saying that either of these things would necessarily be bad, either. But I am saying that he would have to look carefully at what is feasible, and what could pass through Congress and be signed into law.

In fact, there is little risk that the more extreme elements of his platform would ever be more than fodder for dinner table debate and a reinvigoration of editorial pages nationwide.

But elect Dr. Paul, and you send an irrevocable signal to the two parties that the time of "business as usual" is over.

The most that I hope for is the possibility that a Paul administration could reset the terms of political dialogue in this country. I do not delude myself into thinking that a Paul administration would see a wholesale adoption of libertarian cant.

I do think that a Paul administration might shake up the political establishment, it might trigger an exodus of the corrupt from political office (by encouraging a dispirited voting populace who can show the bastards the door), and it might initiate an influx of new blood, new talent, and new values into the Congress.

What would happen in this country if Congressmen and Senators were limited to two terms, like Presidents?

And if nothing else, a Paul victory will send a shot across the bow of the llluminati.

[Greenhat]

What Ron Paul could do is order the troops from Afghanistan, Iraq, Korea and Okinawa to IMMEDIATELY return to the USA.

He may not be able to make the USA an isolationist nation in the long-term, but in the short-term, as President? He can do an awful lot of damage to how we deal with other nations.

Remember, Commander In Chief and Head of State are the two primary responsibilities of the President. And when it comes to those two responsibilites, Ron Paul scares the hell out of me. It might send a message to politicians, but at what cost?

[NightLandNav]

Obama vice Romney is currently (a tad) more possible than Clinton vice McCain.

As GH, Magician and others have stated...McCain broke the faith, nofuckinggo Sir. But, I will not punch the box for Hillary...I just can't imagine any plausible explanation for St. Peter why I voted for the Antichrist.

Delegates to date, Obama(38) and Hillary(36) are in each other's wire...Romney (66) isn't even in the same grid square as McCain (38).

If it is a Romney vice Obama decision...I've known my decision for a while.

...Romney vice Clinton...I'll move to SLC and join that Tabernacle Choir my damn self if it means the Antichrist doesn't get the job.

[Greenhat]

Clinton has most of the Democrat "Super-delegates".

Romney vs. Clinton?

No brainer. Romney gets the vote.

[magician]

What Ron Paul could do is order the troops from Afghanistan, Iraq, Korea and Okinawa to IMMEDIATELY return to the USA.

He may not be able to make the USA an isolationist nation in the long-term, but in the short-term, as President? He can do an awful lot of damage to how we deal with other nations.

Remember, Commander In Chief and Head of State are the two primary responsibilities of the President. And when it comes to those two responsibilites, Ron Paul scares the hell out of me. It might send a message to politicians, but at what cost?

Never happen.

[RetPara]

McCain or Clinton.... For ALL of McCains sins.... he does not have the soul deep, single minded pursuit of power, and the air of self-righteous entitlement to power (for lack of a better term), and absolute disdain for the American way of life, including military service that Clinton does. Clinton scares the shit out of me. McCain could be dumped after one term. God knows what could happen with one term with her.

[Wes]

I'll vote for anyone other than Clinton or McCain. I will not vote for either.
On that note, I agree that there isn't anyone I WANT to vote for right now.

[Max Power]

What Ron Paul could do is order the troops from Afghanistan, Iraq, Korea and Okinawa to IMMEDIATELY return to the USA.

He may not be able to make the USA an isolationist nation in the long-term, but in the short-term, as President? He can do an awful lot of damage to how we deal with other nations.

Remember, Commander In Chief and Head of State are the two primary responsibilities of the President. And when it comes to those two responsibilites, Ron Paul scares the hell out of me. It might send a message to politicians, but at what cost?

Yep, if Congress had actually done their job and actually declared war, then it wouldn't be so easy. Instead they just wrote the Executive Branch a blank check, completely ignoring the responsibilities of the Legislative Branch. And then they bitch about being lied to, which to me, in this circumstance, is the same as saying they didn't do their damn job. But I think this would be a rant for another thread.

I liked Ron Paul when I first started looking into candidates. But then he opened his damn mouth and turned out to be a moron.

Out of all the candidates, the only ticket I would vote for, with some reservations but not nearly as many as other candidates, would be a Romney-Huckabee or Huckabee-Romney ticket.

[grog18b]

As funny as it sounded... I would second the "None of the above" mentioned. We the people should be able to tell the parties "Not good enough choices, pick more people". Wishful thinking huh?

[magician]

It will never be as bad as it was under the Clintons.

Oh, wait...

[Max Power]

As funny as it sounded... I would second the "None of the above" mentioned. We the people should be able to tell the parties "Not good enough choices, pick more people". Wishful thinking huh?

Is there anything in the US Code that says that can't happen? Honestly asking some of the more learned people on this board, I have no idea.

I could see it being as simple as getting any candidate on the ballot, just say the candidates "name" is None of the Above.

It could be its own PR machine, as well, so no need to spend any advertising money once the MSM got wind of it.

[C-M-R]

It will never be as bad as it was under the Clintons.

Oh, wait...

Damn! And here I had started my day in such a good mood too. I honestly believe there are women supporting her simply because she is a woman and that they'll vote for ANY woman no matter who it is.

To me, that is as stupid as soldiers voting for a candidate simply because he'd been a soldier at one time. If you go by this board that's not happening. Makes me think some women are just plain stupid, not all but some.

[C-M-R]

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg is putting out alot of feelers.

He is a very analytical man. He is studying his options and if they look promising he may enter the race. If he does, he may well be a reincarnation of Ross Perot and assure that we have another Clinton in the White House.

If Bloomberg enters the race, you may not have to make a decision between McCain and Clinton but that will be dependant on how you feel about Bloomberg.

If Bloomberg enters the race, it will be a whole new ball game.

My neighbor and I were just talking about Bloomberg yesterday. He's Republican and I'm a Democrat but we both agreed that we'd consider voting for him if he gets in the race.

I disagree with your Perot theory. I think Bloomberg would pull from the Democrats (specifically Clinton) and Independents rather than from the Republicans.

[Silverbullet]

Bloomberg is anti gun ownership.

No go for me.

[Bravo Five Romeo]

I watched Bloomberg as my mayor for six years.
NO GO for me too.

[cb88]

Clinton has most of the Democrat "Super-delegates".

Romney vs. Clinton?

No brainer. Romney gets the vote.

Agreed.

And for once, at least in the Republican race, Texas might matter. YeeHaw!

Get on yer ponies and ride....

[cb88]

The latest score card: http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/scorecard/#val=R

[1026]

Really?
So you see McCain as being anti-conservative and against the Constitution with the McCain-Feingold Act which was pretty much designed to force accountability in dirty political campaigning... but you see his trying to protect the Constitution by fighting for due process and against torture as being anti-conservative as well.
That seems to be a contradiction... preserve only some parts of the Constitution, disregard others.

McCain-Feingold suppresses political speech (the real speech protected by the Constitution). Under M-F, unions and for-profit corporations can't run ads referring to a specific candidate 30 days before a primary and 60 days before a general election. Instead of increased "accountability" M-F merely changed the way the money flows into the campaigns. Since its passage, the courts have expanded the scope of the law to include many grass-roots groups.

As for due process, the terrorists have it, it just isn't the same as what we have as U.S. citizens on U.S. soil. So long as they remain on foreign soil, they can be held until the end of the war, as POWs were during previous wars. The whole "close GITMO, waterboarding is torture" thing is a smoke screen for what McCain and his ACLU overlords really want: to clog an already overburdened federal court and prison system with these people.

[Greenhat]

Is there anything in the US Code that says that can't happen? Honestly asking some of the more learned people on this board, I have no idea.

I could see it being as simple as getting any candidate on the ballot, just say the candidates "name" is None of the Above.

It could be its own PR machine, as well, so no need to spend any advertising money once the MSM got wind of it.

Kicks the election to the House of Representatives if the Electoral College is unable to elect a candidate.

[KidA]

KidA - Sorry, I always vote for the Tallest guy...:p

I've stood next to SOTB. I've got him by a few inches....and in height, too.

[Greenhat]

I've stood next to SOTB. I've got him by a few inches....and in height, too.


He's got you by miles in character... :D

[magician]

Kicks the election to the House of Representatives if the Electoral College is unable to elect a candidate.

Or have another de facto coup d'état like when W beat Gore the first time.

:)

[The Corporate Guy]

I find the lack of support for McCain by some members of this board - to the extent that they would view Clinton as a better alternative - to be quite telling.

[Dumpsterchair]

What I find strange is that Romney is stomping his competition (72 vs 38 delegates for McCain) and yet he rarely factors into discussions with pundits. I understand it's early but there is almost a media black out on the guy. McCain is the darling of the left (as far as republicans go) and they are letting it be known. He's their boy because he's one of them.

[Silverbullet]

McCain-Fiengold is suppression of free speech pure and simple. It was cloaked in the "bringing accountability" veil but a short study exposes it for what it is.

It's especially interesting that it was put forward by 2 dudes who have skirted accountability their entire elected lives.

McCain carries enough baggage that I would find voting for him the same as throwing my vote away.

[HOLLiS]

I find the lack of support for McCain by some members of this board - to the extent that they would view Clinton as a better alternative - to be quite telling.


I agree, I am glad I have read those posts.

[iraqgunz]

Any candidate who is anti-gun automatically gets my NO VOTE. McCain is anti-assault weapons, but Hillary is outright ant-gun. I think this whole election is going to be messy. I won't even consider Obama due to his upbringing.

[Longrifle]

But McCain.... broke faith. For me, there is no greater sin. Time for him to go back to Arizona with his rich wife.

For sickening perspective on the MIA/POW issue, Google for Colonel Tony Peck MIA POW. Read his resignation letter from DIA.
Guess you're talking about this (http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2527/resign.html).

Yeah, I'd say he broke faith, in about the worst way imaginable.:mad:

[morelocks]

China is arguably our primary rival both economically and militarily for the foreseeable future. With the history that China has with the Clintons, I would consider a vote for Sen. Clinton akin to the appointing PM Chaimberlain.

[rgrdrew]

McCain may have broken the faith, and yes I do hold him to fault for doing so if the record is true. Did he do it while there as a POW? Clinton (both of them) broke the faith both during and after the events surrounding Vietnam. Not to mention their absolute disadain and distrust of the military, intelligence communities, and anything having to do with either.

Was McCain there? There and then some. Where were those liberal, draft dodging Clintons? Sitting in some version of a 60's Starbucks, draft dodging college liberal hangout, plotting their political career.

If Hillary considers herself strong enough to run this country, then why can she not go public and defend her stance against Obama? No, instead she sends her idiot husband out to take the shots; or turns up on camera as a crying, whimpering simpleton.

I will not vote for Billary, just as I didn't vote for Bill in 92. Both of them just need to go away and fade out of existence.

[magician]

Guess you're talking about this (http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2527/resign.html).

Yeah, I'd say he broke faith, in about the worst way imaginable.:mad:

That is it, brother. I forgot that Peck's real name was "Millard." When I met him in 1991.... he seemed sad... but I did not realize that he was preparing to resign. He did not go into it with me. We kept the conversation light.

I was focused on other stuff at the time.

Breaks my heart. Still.



c. Duty, Honor and Integrity. It appears that the entire issue is being manipulated by unscrupulous people in the Government, or associated with the Government. Some are using the issue for personal or political advantage and others use it as a forum to perform and feel important, or worse. The sad fact, however, is that this issue is being controlled and a cover-up may be in progress. The entire charade does not appear to be an honest effort, and may never have been.



c. High-Level Knavery. I feel strongly that this issue is being manipulated and controlled at a higher lever, not with the goal of resolving it, but more to obfuscate the question of live prisoners, and give the illusion of progress through hyperactivity.

For me... I read all the usual books on the POW/MIA issue, and was outraged, but, I could not believe that my nation would have abandoned soldiers in the hands of the enemy. I found it impossible that other POWs, like John McCain, could have possibly been a party to it. I found the evidence compelling... but I just could not believe it.

Then I got to know Mark Smith.

The rap on Mark is that he is "crazy." In the same way that his old boss in the ROK, Bob Howard, was "a drunk." Do not believe either canard. They both amount to character assassination, and are complete bullshit.

If you talk to someone, and they tell you that Bob Howard was a drunk, or is a drunk, you know that you are dealing with someone who is part of the problem because they are witting, or they are part of the problem because they are weak and they are parroting words that they have been taught. Bob Howard is no drunk. Same with Mark Smith. I have been told that Mark is a thief, that he is a liar, that he has his own agenda, and the list goes on, and on, and on.

Mark Smith lives very frugally, and quietly, and he is one of the most honorable men that I have ever been privileged to know. How do I know this? He does not live far from me. I have been to his home. We talk, and we see one another, as occasions permit. He is a member of SFA III.

After long conversations with Mark, I now know the truth about the MIA/POW debacle. But Mark is not a lone voice in the wilderness. Tony Peck is also an honorable man. His words, linked above by LR, speak for themselves. I could go on. There are others who know. You want to talk about Bo Gritz? Folks say, "well, Bo lost the plot." Perhaps. Maybe the guy's heart just fucking broke because he could not believe that his country did what it did, and he was powerless to fix it, try though he might.

The fact of the matter is, we left soldiers in the hands of the enemy. John McCain knows it, and he abetted the effort, with John Kerry.

[RGR.Montcalm]

I've stood next to SOTB. I've got him by a few inches....and in height, too.

Meat gazer Meat gazer! AAAARGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D:o

[RGR.Montcalm]

Sooooooooooo......

If the ballot allowed "None of the Above" , any thoughts on how that would work?

Would President Bush (or any future President) remain in office until the Dems and Republicans found new candidates?

Not a bad option, really

[Vincent]

Probably if the "None of the Above" option caused no candidate to get a majority of the electoral vote, it would go to the House of Representatives to be decided.

At that point, whichever party was in the majority would likely vote their party's candidate to the Presidency.

[Keganswar]

Or we could start the process of determining the candidates 6 months prior to when we start now. Instead of them trying to get there party vote we could have a go or no go vote of confidence for them to continue on.


Or we could just open up the pool of potential candidates past the top 1 percent of Americans who can raise 200 million to run. Give anyone who runs free spots on TV and lower the coasts for all to run.

[Ole crusty bastard]

I think a lot of folks have a hard time NOT elevating Sen. McCain to hero status because of his time as a POW. I've heard him softly say that it does not take a hero to get shot down. I know I'll probably catch some flak, but I would imagine that several of our POWs have made a silly mistake that got them captured.

[Offroad]

but I would imagine that several of our POWs have made a silly mistake that got them captured.

I fail to see how they were captured has any bearing.

[Gypsy]

For me... I read all the usual books on the POW/MIA issue, and was outraged, but, I could not believe that my nation would have abandoned soldiers in the hands of the enemy. I found it impossible that other POWs, like John McCain, could have possibly been a party to it. I found the evidence compelling... but I just could not believe it.


Magic Man, have you read An Enormous Crime yet?

[Hopeless Civilian]

Am I completely insane, or would Gen. Colin Powell make for a much better alternative to our current choices?

[Greenhat]

Sooooooooooo......

If the ballot allowed "None of the Above" , any thoughts on how that would work?

Would President Bush (or any future President) remain in office until the Dems and Republicans found new candidates?

Not a bad option, really

It would require a Constitutional change (so it doesn't just go to the House) , and for for each State to change its laws on how electors are elected (maybe change them to a majority of votes cast rather than simple most votes).

[Greenhat]

McCain may have broken the faith, and yes I do hold him to fault for doing so if the record is true.

If the record is true?

The report by the Senate sub-committee on POW/MIA affairs is a matter of record. Read it.

[Silverbullet]

would Gen. Colin Powell make for a much better alternative to our current choices?

No.

[C-M-R]

Meat gazer Meat gazer! AAAARGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D:o

Knock it off this is serious business dammit ROFLMMFAO!! Please try to remember that in the future, ok?


KidA - Isn't that odd. I've always thought of you as a short. Maybe it's the Vespa...

[C-M-R]

No.

Well Judas Priest G!! Let's beat around the bush a little, shall we? You have to quit this subtleness. It isn't like you.

[KidA]

KidA - Isn't that odd. I've always thought of you as a short. Maybe it's the Vespa...

6'2" 175lbs.

Just picture me on the Ducati instead.

But not in Drag like Greenhat does :D

[cb88]

6'2" 175lbs.

Just picture me on the Ducati instead.

But not in Drag like Greenhat does :D


ROTFL...now there is a visual that will haunt one's dreams.:D

GH...I have a question (not about KidA on a Ducati in drag)...

So, say it is Hillary & McCain....let's assume that the congress and senate don't change hands. A scary thought, the most liberal among us instituting every single program they've been dreaming of...worst of all.....

http://www.freemarketcure.com/brainsurgery.php


Are you prepared to live with that???

[C-M-R]

6'2" 175lbs.

Just picture me on the Ducati instead.

But not in Drag like Greenhat does :D

Al and I have an agreement. He makes fun of me but never summons up any images of anyone or thing that might bother me. I can't tell you my part of the bargin since it's secret.

Therefore I have to say you must be carrying some kind of tale since no way would GH even begin to summon that image.

[Greenhat]

Kid A in drag does seem to fit his personality, you have to admit...

cb,

If that happened... maybe, just maybe, the American people would wake up and we'd get a second American Revolution. Don't kid yourself into thinking McCain is a better choice than Clinton just because he calls himself a Republican.

[C-M-R]

Don't kid yourself into thinking McCain is a better choice than Clinton just because he calls himself a Republican.

Dear God absolutley!! John McCain is as much a Republican as I am.

I know people who have worked 1 on 1 with the man and they have nothing good to say about him. The best I've heard is "angry little man."

Personally, I have done legislative work where McCain was involved and he is 100% intractable. There's a lot to be said for having an ideal and sticking with it. However, nothing says stupid or stubborn quicker than a man who looks at the facts then dismisses them. I have seen McCain do exactly that.

Personally, I have seen this. Not a third party deal or rumor or somebody said, ME. I have seen first-hand McCain behave wrongly where Americans were concerned. Not just the POW situation, and he's wrong on that but he's wrong on a number of subjects...I don't care who you are.

[Greenhat]

Dear God absolutley!! John McCain is as much a Republican as I am.

So, going to move to Arizona, call yourself a Republican and run for office? ;)

[C-M-R]

So, going to move to Arizona, call yourself a Republican and run for office? ;)


I thought about what you suggested and no.


I also have to say that if Clinton is the choice on the Dem side...I don't honestly know what I'll do. I can't vote for McCain and God knows I can't cast a ballot for that greedy, no-account woman.

Would you seriously vote for her if the choice was McCain or Clinton? Honest to God, would you do it?

[Offroad]

So, going to move to Arizona, call yourself a Republican and run for office?

Hey.....I'll vote for her. I'll even help her campaign. (if for no other reason than to watch her debate with McCain) :D

[Greenhat]

I'd sure consider it. As Rat said, at least it's he devil you know. Or maybe I'd vote for the Libertarian candidate as a sort of protest for the two major parties putting up the worst candidates in the history of the nation. But I don't think it'll come to that. I think it is likely that Romney will get the Republican nomination.

[magician]

Magic Man, have you read An Enormous Crime yet?

Not yet.

Waiting for a .pdf version to hit the net.

[Ole crusty bastard]

I fail to see how they were captured has any bearing. The TV spots down here in South Florida are portraying Sen. McCain as a Military Hero. His hero status comes from just being a POW, not his deportment as a POW or his efforts as a Senator. How they were captured and why they were captured, to me there's a big difference. I was speaking in general terms. You would have to admit that we have lost men and women because they screwed up and were in the wrong place.

[NightLandNav]

January 29th (Florida) may or may not shake up the leader board, but "Super Tues" (Feb 5th) is going to be a definitive day for the candidates of both parties. After that it's all over but the crying.

[KidA]

Would you seriously vote for her if the choice was McCain or Clinton? Honest to God, would you do it?

No, but in DC my vote doesn't "count" since it's 90 percent Democrat. I don't have to vote for either.

[Camel]

Ill say one thing for the man, he came to iraq and had thanksgiving with the troops. I think you may have seen my left shoulder in the TV spots. He said one of his son's is down south with the the Marines, and get this, he is enlisted. I did not see Hillary.

[Silverbullet]

No, but in DC my vote doesn't "count" since it's 90 percent Democrat. I don't have to vote for either.

DC being 90 or whatever % Dem has no bearing on why your vote doesn't count.

I'd like the district I live in to have it's own electoral votes as well. When that happens we can do the same for DC. Get absorbed into VA or MD or live with your special status. :D

[cb88]

cb,

If that happened... maybe, just maybe, the American people would wake up and we'd get a second American Revolution. Don't kid yourself into thinking McCain is a better choice than Clinton just because he calls himself a Republican.

I don't think he's republican, he's not even conservative enough to be called a RINO. I just can't stand the thought of that woman in the White House with her dirty little hands on our national secrets -- look what they did the first time.

[cb88]

January 29th (Florida) may or may not shake up the leader board, but "Super Tues" (Feb 5th) is going to be a definitive day for the candidates of both parties. After that it's all over but the crying.

Super Tues may or may not be a definitive day. We can't assume every state will go the same way on that day. It could muddy the waters even more -- at least on the Republican side.

I think it is likely that Romney will get the Republican nomination.


I'm thinking that way too -- not that he would be my first choice, I don't really have one this year, but he's definiely above McCain.

[KidA]

DC being 90 or whatever % Dem has no bearing on why your vote doesn't count.

I'd like the district I live in to have it's own electoral votes as well. When that happens we can do the same for DC. Get absorbed into VA or MD or live with your special status. :D


DC does have its own electoral votes. We have three, the same as Alaska, Montana, N Dakota, S. Dakota, Vermont and Wyoming.

We just don't have representation in Congress.

[cb88]

DC does have its own electoral votes. We have three.

We just don't have representation in Congress.

Taxation without representation???

[KidA]

Taxation without representation???

Yep. And it's lovely how the Republicans love it and argue for it. :)

We made license plates that said that on there - to bring awareness. We still have them.

They were on President Bush's Limo when he was inaugurated as President. He had them removed.

[Silverbullet]

DC does have its own electoral votes. We have three, the same as Alaska, Montana, N Dakota, S. Dakota, Vermont and Wyoming.

We just don't have representation in Congress.

Damn, I left myself open to KidA correcting me. I guess I had head in the ass syndrome this morning. Good catch, I stand corrected. I should have thought a bit more before posting:D

[KidA]

Damn, I left myself open to KidA correcting me. I guess I had head in the ass syndrome this morning. Good catch, I stand corrected. I should have thought a bit more before posting:D

Well I hesitated a bit before doing so, wondering what you had up your sleeve to seemingly leave that out in the open like that...
:D

[Silverbullet]

Just stupidity on my part while trying to bust your chops.

Simple case of typing with brain not engaged.:D

[Hopeless Civilian]

I honestly don't see anyone in the race that really stands head and shoulders above the rest. Thanks for all the info on McCain guys, I think I'm more confused now than I was...hahaha. Maybe that lil cabin out in the swamps wouldn't be such a bad idea after all.

At one point about a year ago there were rumours that Ms. Gov Haley Barbour might run for the republican nomination. As glad as I am that he got re-elected here, I'm starting to wish he had run.

[Greenhat]

I don't think he's republican, he's not even conservative enough to be called a RINO. I just can't stand the thought of that woman in the White House with her dirty little hands on our national secrets -- look what they did the first time.

Despite what they did last time, the USA is still around. They are your average run of the mill corrupt politicians. McCain? He's the guy who runs on being an honor-laden hero, but abandoned his brothers. The guy who runs as a Republican, but doesn't believe in many of the values of the Republican Party. McCain is a bigger liar than both the Clintons put together. He's just plain better at it. Lying, that is.

[KidA]

Despite what they did last time, the USA is still around. They are your average run of the mill corrupt politicians. McCain? He's the guy who runs on being an honor-laden hero, but abandoned his brothers. The guy who runs as a Republican, but doesn't believe in many of the values of the Republican Party. McCain is a bigger liar than both the Clintons put together. He's just plain better at it. Lying, that is.

Come on GH, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel...:D

[Greenhat]

Come on GH, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel...:D

You're next. :cool:

[heavyguns1/1]

5 1/2 years as a POW is a lot of shit to take. He went there to do his job and endured a lot of hell while in captivity. I wouldn't want to have done that. During Desert Storm we knew that dead was better than captured by those people. It's been that way wherever we fight.

A lot of the same critics of McCain will go see Rambo and put money in Stallone's pocket.

I would discourage people from electing a candidate from the north, the value system up here is severely flawed. Hillary isn't from Arkansas either, she's from a conservative Chicago family.

[Greenhat]

5 1/2 years as a POW is a lot of shit to take. He went there to do his job and endured a lot of hell while in captivity.

So, with that you excuse him for turning his back on his brothers and abandoning them?

[heavyguns1/1]

Not saying I would excuse that if it were accurate on it's face. The guy survived and I'm sure he helped many others survive too. If he betrayed the I'm an American Fighting Man version of the Code of Conduct, that UCMJ would have had something for him.

[KidA]

Not saying I would excuse that if it were accurate on it's face. The guy survived and I'm sure he helped many others survive too. If he betrayed the I'm an American Fighting Man version of the Code of Conduct, that UCMJ would have had something for him.

have you read all the links and stuff in this thread about McCain? I have. There is no "if" he betrayed, there is only "he betrayed."

He was in a position to get some shit done on the POW issue and he didn't. He closed the books and said there were none left.

That's betrayal of the highest order.

[kpmurphy66]

Billary for President? NFW. Obama GTFOH...Dude does not have the creds nor experience to run a country. Hasn't he missed a majority of his votes on the Senate just to run for President? If someone is running for President,they should at least step down from their elected position to run,since they're most likely not doing the job they were elected to do in the first place?
What's been said regardling McCain reminds me alot of Billary too...selfserving,egotistical, just in it for the office. Wonder who Bill will get to smoke his cigar if she gets elected ? She is even less trustworthy to me than Bill was, and that's saying alot. Regardless of how W won against Gore-at least it kept Bill light out of office.
Too bad Gen.Petraeus is not eligible to run now due to his obvious military commitment. Colin Powell wouldn't make a good choice as Prez now since he bowed out of it due to his family issues or whatever the reasons were.
Petreaeus and Storming Norman for a Republican ticket ! Short of that, McCain's got my vote. Something in my gut warns me about Romney...and you've got to trust the gut feeling. Voting for another third party candidate will most likely throw the election to the person you didn't want to win.Someone mentioned Nader earlier. Another example is Perot,although say what you want bout that little nutcase, he does have strong morals and principles Rant over.

[KidA]

If someone is running for President,they should at least step down from their elected position to run,since they're most likely not doing the job they were elected to do in the first place?

I agree, however the voters keep electing these shitbirds after they take off so apparently only a handful of us feel this way.

She is even less trustworthy to me than Bill was, and that's saying alot.

Disagree. I don't think he was untrustworthy. I think he had some messsed up politics and ideas but he was genuine about them. I never got the feeling that he was in it for the "power" of the office - I think he definitely wanted to institute his ideas. Whether you agree with those ideas or not doesn't matter with regards to this. Hilary on the other hand I only get from her that she's in it for the Power of the office.

Short of that, McCain's got my vote.

Not mine, but he didn't have it before this POW issue came to my knowledge. He lost it when the Bush's treated him like a piece of shit (in SC) and then he went right back and sucked up to them like a bitch.

[heavyguns1/1]

Are you referring to while in captivity or as a politician? Politicians sell their souls when they take their oath of office.

[NightLandNav]

January 29th (Florida) may or may not shake up the leader board, but "Super Tues" (Feb 5th) is going to be a definitive day for the candidates of both parties. After that it's all over but the crying.Super Tues may or may not be a definitive day. We can't assume every state will go the same way on that day. It could muddy the waters even more -- at least on the Republican side.
....

Agreed, it is highly improbable every state would. Still, I'm sticking with my prediction regarding the significance Super Tues will have for both parties this year.

As for who will emerge as the frontrunners... no clue, but my SWAG at this point is Obama and Romney.

[Longrifle]

Politicians sell their souls when they take their oath of office.
Selling his soul is his business.

Accountability for doing what he did is ours.

[heavyguns1/1]

Longrifle hit it right on the head. On t our level, boots on the ground, we stick together. This debate has compelled me to read on a politician, I don't like them.

[Gypsy]

Not yet.

Waiting for a .pdf version to hit the net.


You really need to read it. Really.


It's over 900 pages in print...but I'd mail you mine if you promise to send it back. This is one I would rather not give up for good.

[Parajuevos]

5 1/2 years as a POW is a lot of shit to take. He went there to do his job and endured a lot of hell while in captivity.


All the comments here have been very interesting but I've already decided to back McCain. I sent my absentee ballot in a few days ago.

While some of the allegations are disturbing, they are too general in nature for me to make a decision to vote for another candidate. Maybe something more concrete will come out that really convinces people not to vote for him. If it does, then he will not be nominated.

If he is nominated, I will vote for him for President. I do not want to see another Clinton in the White House.

I will vote for any Republican who gets the nomination before I vote for any of the Candidates on the Democratic ticket.

In my opinion Hillary is a Socialist, Obama has no experience and Edwards is a hypocrit, who made his fortune on malpractice suits, the same type of litigation that has raised our insurance rates and caused many doctors to stop practicing medicine. They can take their ideas on universal health care and stow them. Ask the Canadians if they like waiting six months for an MRI.

[cb88]

As for who will emerge as the frontrunners... no clue, but my SWAG at this point is Obama and Romney.


The media (and Oprah) would have a field day with that.

[NightLandNav]

The media (and Oprah) would have a field day with that.

True, but let's face it, they (media) have a field day everyday. As for Oprah...I don't deny her ability to influence, could she turn the tide? I don't know, I really don't. What do you think?

[iraqgunz]

So here's the deal. All SOCNET'ers will pencil in SB and GH. They can fight it out over who gets to be POTUS and VPOTUS. Wouldn't that make the headlines?

[AngryBob]

http://www.wjno.com/pages/spotlight.html?feed=244038&article=3180167

[Silverbullet]

So here's the deal. All SOCNET'ers will pencil in SB and GH. They can fight it out over who gets to be POTUS and VPOTUS. Wouldn't that make the headlines?

That's SOTB, not me. :D

[iraqgunz]

Hell no I meant you. :D

[Silverbullet]

Hell no I meant you. :D

Don't make me mark the LZ over this:D

[Parajuevos]

http://www.wjno.com/pages/spotlight.html?feed=244038&article=3180167

An innocent slip of the tongue. He know's who Putin is, I'm sure.

[iraqgunz]

Not the infamous SOCNET black bird? Alright- SOTB it is.

[AngryBob]

An innocent slip of the tongue. He know's who Putin is, I'm sure. I bet he knows as well, more so than us... but funny nevertheless, especially here in Germany!

[BigNickT]

SOTB isn't interested in POTUS. He's running for Deity.

Tax out

[RGR.Montcalm]

Y'all fill in the first part

Like being in the Mafia, one slip of the tongue and you're in deep shit!:D :eek:

[Offroad]

The TV spots down here in South Florida are portraying Sen. McCain as a Military Hero. His hero status comes from just being a POW, not his deportment as a POW or his efforts as a Senator. How they were captured and why they were captured, to me there's a big difference. I was speaking in general terms. You would have to admit that we have lost men and women because they screwed up and were in the wrong place.

Please correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't read any of the books referenced
in this thread, however I plan to.

I don't think that is the issue.

I'm not aware that anyone is critical of McCain regarding his capture. And I believe all Americans are saddened and enraged when any of our soldiers are held captive for ANY length of time.

What concerns me is his actions when he returned home. He could have fought for his brothers still in captivity. They would have done that for him. How could he just cow tow to Washington so easily? Could you have turned your back on your brothers just to get ahead in politics or would you have done everything in your power to find them and bring them home?

He didn't, he just wrote them off.

For that, John McCain is a lesser man in my eyes and if he wouldn't speak up for his brothers, why would I expect him to speak up for me.

Sorry, he doesn't get my vote.

[magician]

You really need to read it. Really.


It's over 900 pages in print...but I'd mail you mine if you promise to send it back. This is one I would rather not give up for good.

Thank you, sister, but really, I will wait.

The mails are expensive, slow, and unreliable. It is as liable to make it here torn up as it is to simply vanish.

Also, I like to write in my books, because I cross-reference and I use them forever.

Your generosity is appreciated, but I will get my hands on my own copy sooner rather than later. Books have a way of making their way to me, you see. My wife looks at my book case, and she just shakes her head. She wants to put shoes on them (I buy her a lot of shoes. She looks good in them, and she likes them.)

:)

[Ole crusty bastard]

Offroad, I brought this up because it is a issue that most of us shy away from and I only speak of this because Sen. McCain's campaign is flaunting his "POW hero" status. I'm sure that he will be receiving questions from the Families of POWs in the near future, watch how he dodges the questions as to his actions concerning the POWs and thier families. As has been said before "honor" is very important to the American fighting man/woman. I can see the Dem's "swift-boating" the Senator on this issue if if becomes the republican nominee.

[Greenhat]

I can see the Dem's "swift-boating" the Senator on this issue if if becomes the republican nominee.


He won't need the Dems to do it. POWs will do it.

[Spinner]

McCain's stance on the POW/MIA issue is a legitimate beef, and is an area that has always troubled me more than a little bit. It has nothing to do with his own experience as a POW, yet at the same time it does speak a volume or two about how politicians, even men who have served their nation honorably, will do just about anything for the sake of political expediency.

Bear in mind, this wouldn't be the first time that Americans have been abandoned to an unknown fate on a battlefield, and an MIA is always going to conjure up the image of somebody being left behind, possibly still imprisoned. I think at this point, regardless of the efforts made by men on the ground to search for those missing and captured (10th Mountain soldiers most recently), anybody going into the service should figure the possibility of that happening, and factor that in when making a decision to join a uniformed service. In the end, that's another risk that anybody who serves might have to face. It's not just John McCain who has abandoned troops to their fate.

Eisenhower, who is generally considered one of our greatest Generals and a capable, if uninspiring, president, did much the same with a fairly large number of Korean prisoners who he had learned had been sent to Siberia and other satellite countries within the Warsaw Pact. That's been documented by papers in his own library and recently declassified documents. Let's not kid ourselves, that train of abandonment left the station a long time before Kerry or McCain took up the issue, and the man who kept that information from the American people was one of the most admired men of his time.

[Greenhat]

The voters didn't know Eisenhower had done that. They will know that McCain did.

[Spinner]

That's true, but it doesn't seem to have diminished his stature over the years among the general population. If anything, Ike and Truman are probably thought of in even better terms today.

McCain's stance on this is a legitimate issue to be brought up in the campaign, and he should be asked some hard questions about it, especially in light of the fact that we have at least two or more MIA in Iraq right now. Matt Maupin has been listed as MIA for close to 5 years now, and the DoD was about to close the file on him after his second year in MIA status, as I recall. They received a lot of feedback from his family and friends, as well as their Reps in Congress.

[Offroad]

Delete

[cb88]

True, but let's face it, they (media) have a field day everyday. As for Oprah...I don't deny her ability to influence, could she turn the tide? I don't know, I really don't. What do you think?


I don't know either...she has a pretty powerful influence over soccer moms and housewifes....

[Gypsy]

Thank you, sister, but really, I will wait.

The mails are expensive, slow, and unreliable. It is as liable to make it here torn up as it is to simply vanish.

Also, I like to write in my books, because I cross-reference and I use them forever.

Your generosity is appreciated, but I will get my hands on my own copy sooner rather than later. Books have a way of making their way to me, you see. My wife looks at my book case, and she just shakes her head. She wants to put shoes on them (I buy her a lot of shoes. She looks good in them, and she likes them.)

:)

You're welcome, and I'll hope you get this soon. You will be making many, many margin notes in this book. The reference notes in the back of the book are also very informative.

Ahhh shoes...shoes are good. :)

[Spinner]

You're welcome, and I'll hope you get this soon. You will be making many, many margin notes in this book. The reference notes in the back of the book are also very informative.

Ahhh shoes...shoes are good. :)

I haven't read the book, Gypsy, but I have seen it in the stacks at my local library.

Does it cover just the Vietnam War, or does it take other politicians and administrations to task for the same thing in earlier conflicts?

[Gypsy]

I haven't read the book, Gypsy, but I have seen it in the stacks at my local library.

Does it cover just the Vietnam War, or does it take other politicians and administrations to task for the same thing in earlier conflicts?

It's really concentrated on the Vietnam War POWs, covers all adminstrations from that time to present. You should pick it up.

[Offroad]

Offroad, I brought this up because it is a issue that most of us shy away from and I only speak of this because Sen. McCain's campaign is flaunting his "POW hero" status. I'm sure that he will be receiving questions from the Families of POWs in the near future, watch how he dodges the questions as to his actions concerning the POWs and their families. As has been said before "honor" is very important to the American fighting man/woman. I can see the Dem's "swift-boating" the Senator on this issue if he becomes the republican nominee.

I believe you and I are in agreement. ;) Obviously I misunderstood your comment earlier. Thanks for elaborating on your views.

I wonder if flaunting his "POW hero" status is a wise campaign strategy. It does open him up for attack.

What kind of reaction has it gotten in your area of Florida?

[redhawk]

I'm going to tread somewhat lightly, but I'm supposed to lose trust in McCain because of a well organized attack on his concern for POWs? An attack that uses his relationship in the 1970's as ammunition for an assault on his character? An attack which asks, "Will the Christian Right Accept John McCain's Divorce? " An attack that asks, "Was John McCain Brainwashed by his North Vietnamese Captors to Destroy this Nation?" An attack that shows McCain tied to a bed with the caption, "John McCain's suicide attempt and his resulting PTSD"?

I just find it hard to believe that John McCain is a traitor because Jerry Kiley's website and a few articles on NewsMax say so. The only two presidential candidates who had the balls to join the military, McCain and Paul, are the two most harmful candidates who would destroy America?

Then what's the point of voting?

[Greenhat]

Why don't you just read the report of the Senate sub-committee on POW/MIAs. It's a matter of Senate record.

Not John Kiley's website. Or Newsmax. Senate record.

The report states that it is highly likely that POWs still remained in SE Asia after the return dates. And recommends forgetting about them. READ IT. See for yourself.

John McCain was one of the authors of that report. He broke the faith. Turned his back on his brothers. Abandoned them. Now, maybe you haven't served in the military and are unaware of how most of us feel about that. I'd think that some of the comments in this thread might have given you an idea.

[Ole crusty bastard]

What kind of reaction has it gotten in your area of Florida? His "hero status" is working well so far. We have a large retired military population down here in the swamp and naturally would like to see one of our own in office. I feel that the "swift-boating" will wait until closer to the convention, so whomever will get the most bang for thier buck. Time to go play Bingo.:D

[NightLandNav]

McCain is the probable Republican to win in Florida.

Regardless of how well McCain does or doesn't do in Florida on the 29th, the voters in the other 22 states on Super Tues can hardly be predicted by Flori-duh voters who during primary elections can only vote according to their party registration.
This effectively excludes cross-over party votes...which the same voters in FL are allowed during the national presidential elections.

This particular primary restriction is the main reason exit polling in Florida is so intense.

[KidA]

His "hero status" is working well so far. We have a large retired military population down here in the swamp

I swear to god if you guys down there start again with the hanging chads and voting for the wrong candidate because you're too old to see the ballot I am going to come down to Florida and make my way from Jacksonville to Miami choking every single person I see until my arms fall off.

I'm. Not. Kidding.

[Offroad]

I swear to god if you guys down there start again with the hanging chads and voting for the wrong candidate because you're too old to see the ballot I am going to come down to Florida and make my way from Jacksonville to Miami choking every single person I see until my arms fall off.

I'm. Not. Kidding.

LMAO Now THAT'S funny!!!

[NightLandNav]

Start in Jupiter and choke your way south from there. You'll be in Key West by by Memorial day.

The problem starts from Jupiter south anyway.

Jacksonville...a sprawled out working class town, not allot of geriatric snow-birds or blue-haired old ladies.

Besides, Jax ain't worth all the shooting you'd have to do just trying to get out of Duval County. ;)

[Offroad]

Start in Jupiter and choke your way south from there. You'll be in Key West by by Memorial day.

The problem starts from Jupiter south anyway.

Jacksonville...a sprawled out working class town, not allot of geriatric snow-birds or ]blue-haired old ladies.

Besides, Jax ain't worth all the shooting you'd have to do just trying to get out of Duval County. ;)

NLN, Old ladies don't dye their hair blue anymore. Nowadays it's either Clairol Bashful Blond #73, Revlon Raven Black #06 or Red Hot Mama #26.

...or they just say ...oh hell fuckit, and let it grow in white. :D



By the way, this made my day. :D Start in Jupiter and choke your way south from there. You'll be in Key West by by Memorial day.

[NightLandNav]

I deffer to your superior knowledge of hair color products.



You had to know that one was coming ...:D

[RGR.Montcalm]

Start in Jupiter and choke your way south from there. You'll be in Key West by by Memorial day.

The problem starts from Jupiter south anyway.

Jacksonville...a sprawled out working class town, not allot of geriatric snow-birds or blue-haired old ladies.

Besides, Jax ain't worth all the shooting you'd have to do just trying to get out of Duval County. ;)

Ain't that the truth!

Mess around in Jacksonville and they'll play "Pin the Tail on the Honky" with you as the pin cushion!:eek: :D

Jacksonville may be the largest 'town' in the world (in land acreage), moderately cultured, but there are a lot of rednecks that call it home.:D

If you make it to Key West- there are a bunchafellas that wouldn't mind you choking them a little...

[Greenhat]

McCain is the probable Republican to win in Florida.

Regardless of how well McCain does or doesn't do in Florida on the 29th, the voters in the other 22 states on Super Tues can hardly be predicted by Flori-duh voters who during primary elections can only vote according to their party registration.
This effectively excludes cross-over party votes...which the same voters in FL are allowed during the national presidential elections.

This particular primary restriction is the main reason exit polling in Florida is so intense.


A number of analysts say McCain is in trouble come Super Tuesday and after. The closed primaries (only registered Republicans can vote on the Republican ticket) hurts McCain (who has yet to do well with registered Republicans) and the "winner takes all" rules when it comes to the delegates (not splitting delegates, but the #1 vote getter getting all the State delegates) helps Romney probably more than any other candidate.

[cb88]

McCain is the probable Republican to win in Florida.

Regardless of how well McCain does or doesn't do in Florida on the 29th, the voters in the other 22 states on Super Tues can hardly be predicted by Flori-duh voters who during primary elections can only vote according to their party registration.
This effectively excludes cross-over party votes...which the same voters in FL are allowed during the national presidential elections.

This particular primary restriction is the main reason exit polling in Florida is so intense.


When I was in California it was the same way...not sure if it is now.

Texas is an open primary. Unless our vote actually counts this year, I may just vote Democrat to vote against Hillary so I can do it twice in one year. :D

[Claemore]

Why? Simply because some countries don't get a choice. Well, we don't live in those places. We live here and the options we are being given are shitty. As Americans we know shit when we see it. A choice between McCain or Clinton is shit. Dammit.

You are brilliant, ma'am!:D

[1026]

Look who is advising McCain on immigration/border issues. (http://michellemalkin.com/2008/01/25/john-mccains-open-borders-outreach-director-the-next-dhs-secretary/)

[magician]

Got this from Mark Smith.



Mark:

May I share this with others?

Thank you for sharing it with me, my friend.

s.
-




Certainly.

It is a very strange situation where John is followed around by a 'truth squad' to shout down any who disagree from the veteran's ranks to their fellow returned POWS.

Many do not realize that John passed the McCain amendment some years ago, sealing all returned POW records.

Part of that also allows us to change anything we consider 'wrong' (embarrassing?).

I never asked him to do that on my behalf.

John, I suspect, did that for John and for his presidential bid in 2008.

Mark




On Jan 27, 2008, at 02:01, zippo smith wrote:


It would appear there is a cabal of returned POWS who somehow were appointed to determine not only who was good and bad but who should be allowed a comment.

Even our honored dead are labeled as 'nut cases' because of 'injuries to the head.' They had the temerity to challenge one of our 'sacred cow' POWS. War is a lot like politics in that the arena makes the rules for all who enter.

One of our Naval Captains, a highly decorated POW, was put through the wringer and painted as a live POW scam artist before the Senate. No more brave and decent man exists.

A civilian POW has been trashed for believing in live POWS left behind and not supporting one of our number for political office.

A man who stood beside our families, while we were gone and sought resolution of the fate of the missing is belittled in a political theater.

There is something wrong with this picture and we are ungrateful.

How could we all come from the fires of the same hell of attempted mind-control and then attack our own for speaking their mind in America, about politics?

Is this ability to say what we truly think not what we starved and suffered for? Some of us may have risen to high position but have we fallen to a terrible low morally? Have we sunken to a place where we, like the communists, will shout down opinion and demand adherence to things we may not believe?

Being 'weird' I think about things like this.

I lived in a hole in the ground in the jungle because I refused to say I would not escape. I had thirty-eight wounds, including six bullets, so expect no sympathy from me because you gave it up for medical care.

Yet, I understand that some men were stronger than others. I understand why some suffered so much they had to make a statement. But, some of the brethren belittle themselves when they even insinuate they are better men than I was in those hell holes.

I made no statements, even at deaths door. You cast aspersions on what others in my camp and I suffered to uphold, when you say ' We all broke.' Men who could well have died from wounds and malaria did not break.

But I truly understand how some were so brutalized that they did. Just do not claim that I did.

I was a POW for less than one year in the jungle. Some were there for nearly a decade in North Vietnam. What a terrible thing to endure.

Yet, I must say that I faced greater risk on the Infantry battlefield than I ever did in a POW camp. I was on that battlefield every year that others were already in prison, except for a handful captured before 1965.

On a daily basis the Infantryman in Vietnam and today in Iraq face(d) greater physical danger than any POW. It was the daily fight for your spirit which made being a POW unique and not the physical pain and threat of death.

We returned POWS need to get off this mind-control crap because it is unbecoming of honorable men.

If we earned any right out of those camps it was the right to agree or disagree. I cannot speak for others but I will not give up that right again without a fight.

If that makes me 'weird', so be it pal.

ZIPPO

[Greenhat]

Thanks for putting that up, Magician.

[67 Fastback]

Just throwin this out here but uh...I'm a member of that "new" generation. Ya know...the one that is apparently freaking out about Obama. Look...I'm a moderate. I have this problem...because I don't think the dialogue that SHOULD be taking place, is taking place.

As far as the field of presidential contenders:

Romney: yeah whatever...

Hillary: Even IF you could elect her, which you couldn't, because A. we live in a country where enough people won't vote for a woman, and B. she comes off as a hardcore punk rocker lesbian crazy chick, SHE CANNOT UNITE THE PARTIES. She CANNOT be the middle person.

Obama: Sure, but I'm gonna point a few things out. First of all, he's got no experience whatsoever and offers change...but what kind of change they can't elaborate on. Also...and I'm gonna say something that I hate, I really do, and I'm not proud of it, but Barack Obama is an African American, and unfortunately there are too many people in this country that won't vote for him based on the color of his skin. I hate it, it sucks, but its reality. It is important that he runs, because as more non white protestants run, we will become more used to it, and HOPEFULLY those lines will be blurred and removed.

Mccain: Look...he's a moderate, he's willing to be the middle man. Also, UNLIKE our current president who apparently prides himself on being a "War president", Mccain actually has been there and done that. I respect a BTDT a helluva lot more than a chicken hawk; and I say this as a college studant who had the option and didn't go. Thats right, I didn't go, and no I don't want any part of war. War is hell, and I realize this, and I don't want our boys involved in it either; those few willing to do the job, if they don't have to be. I have friends at Westpoint...I don't want to be at their funerals any more than I want to bury any more of my countrymen. I have so many friends that don't care here in college, and folks...I've done so many fucking shots and toasts to the fallen...I hate it. I do it, and not because I enjoy it. I'd rather hear about soldiers coming back to see their kids grow into adults.

I say all of this because I'm tryng to be honest about my convictions regarding this election. I want a moderate. I feel like we have a two party system that is the downfall of our society. We need dialogue, we need discourse, we need discussion about whats best for the future of the last remaining superpower in Western Civilization. We are NOT the next ROME, we are the next Britain. We don't have to be....in fact this country bore a striking resemblance to the Great Britain of the 18th Century just after its independence such that its scary. I will cite XXXXXX, one of my favorite profs, and XXXXXXX as sources.

Anyway...what am I supposed to do? Mccain is the last best hope for bipartisan dialogue. Folks...do you realise what we're staring down? This isn't the fucking Soviet Union we're confronting. The Russian Bear had no concept of adaptability. Sun tzu didn't apply. Uncle Joe and his cronies didn't get the whole "be like water" thing. And at the end of the day...partisan politics is destroying a dialogue about what is best for the American people. THAT is what we should be talking about, NOT arguiing about what one party has over the other.

I seem to recall a founding father who conceived of a political cartoon that dealt with the idea of unity or death. I see this as relevant today.

So what is the veteran's take on this? I'm not posting this to stir a shit pot...I just want to know what you guys have to say about this. I have to make a decision, I have these feelings, I want your take. Thank you gentlemen.

[Greenhat]

Mccain is the last best hope for bipartisan dialogue.

A man who can't keep the faith of his brothers?

Who is supportive of limits on your First Amendment rights (specifically on free speech on political issuses)?

Those are issues that should resonate with people of all political beliefs (except possibly those who favor totalitarian government forms).

If he's your best hope? You need to find another.

[Silverbullet]

Mccain: Look...he's a moderate, .....

I see the media has been successful with you........

If you call bipartisan being he guy who does whatever it takes to make himself the focal point no matter what it takes, ie...selling out, opening our borders to anyone and everyone, stifling free speech, and on and on....then more power to you.

He's not even close to being a moderate.

The chicken hawk comment is stupid and is more a of a reflection of your lack of what is going on than anything else.

I don't care who you vote for but your reasoning which is completely off the mark isn't getting a free pass, here.

[The Corporate Guy]

Hillary: Even IF you could elect her, which you couldn't, because A. we live in a country where enough people won't vote for a woman, and B. she comes off as...

Do not understimate that woman.

[RetPara]

Do not understimate that woman.

That's a frigging understatement.

Consider that the Kennedy Clan et. al. have come out for Obama; that should be a key observation in itself. The Clinton Machine, which is something the late Mayor Daly of Chicago would of greatly envied, has been successful in shoving aside the Kennedy Clan in preeminence in the Democratic party.

This primary and nomination is not just about nominating a Presidential candidate, but is a proxy battle for control of the Democratic party. No one really seems to call it that.

[NightLandNav]

That's a frigging understatement.

Consider that the Kennedy Clan et. al. have come out for Obama; that should be a key observation in itself. The Clinton Machine, which is something the late Mayor Daly of Chicago would of greatly envied, has been successful in shoving aside the Kennedy Clan in preeminence in the Democratic party.

This primary and nomination is not just about nominating a Presidential candidate, but is a proxy battle for control of the Democratic party. No one really seems to call it that.

x2
Both the Democratic and Republican parties are in ethnic power struggles.

Blacks are currently the dominant minority in the democratic party as the Hispanics are in the Republican.

The Kennedy gesture of support for Obama is text book Machiavellian Kennedy compound strategy....back the winner.

But I agree, it is a portents for the Dem party.

[Hot Mess]

I feel like we have a two party system that is the downfall of our society.


:rolleyes: With a two party system you know what your getting, A or B. While it does have it's draw backs, it also has positive aspects. As far as the downfall of our society? No, the downfall of our society is the risk adverse, fence sitting, pussies that infest our military, government, society, and of course our COLLEGES.

[Scotty]

Do not understimate that woman.

"That's no woman! She's a MAN, baby!"

Sorry, I saw my shot and I took it. :D

Scotty

[cb88]

McCain takes Florida and Guiliani is dropping out and endorsing McCain....

the more I look at McCain and Hillary, there really isn't much difference between the choice, except that with Hillary we get a "co presidency"...Hillary and Bill. :rolleyes:

[ktek01]

They all suck, the last election that left me feeling really good about the countrys prospects afterwards was the 84 election. Pretty much downhill ever since, and a pretty steep hill at that.

[Greenhat]

They all suck, the last election that left me feeling really good about the countrys prospects afterwards was the 84 election. Pretty much downhill ever since, and a pretty steep hill at that.

True.

[JCastro]

Look who is advising McCain on immigration/border issues. (http://michellemalkin.com/2008/01/25/john-mccains-open-borders-outreach-director-the-next-dhs-secretary/)

WOW!! I am shocked (although I shouldn't be) and appalled by this. That guy is such an extremist. Even me, a hispanic can't stand the ideas that he stands for. I am all for people coming to this country LEGALLY and making a better life for themselves. But I guess some people don't understand the meaning of illegal and untold numbers of serious threats that can come through those open borders.

the more I look at McCain and Hillary, there really isn't much difference between the choice, except that with Hillary we get a "co presidency"...Hillary and Bill.

The difference I see is one has boobs and the other doesn't. Although...I haven't checked the man boob site to see if he is listed...:D

[Greenhat]

If the choices become Clinton vs. McCain, I'm voting for Clinton.

Christ, that sucks.

[magician]

Love him or hate him, Zippo makes you think.



Perhaps it was inevitable that we should come to where we are now. So convoluted did our values become that now we hold aloft those who lost a fight as warriors to be emulated. I have direct knowledge of the suffering POWS endured but I also have knowledge of some who traded their honor for comfort in those camps. Even many who did their best sometimes make excuses about 'Nobody could have resisted that for long.'

POW camps are terrible places designed in the politics of Lenin to change minds/alter spirits more than detain bodies. Who was changed and who was altered is tough to tell because of the ongoing amnesty to entice collaborators to cross back to the good guys right up until the end, all sins forgiven. The handful charged from the releases in 1973 were those who bought totally into the communist line and in some cases even asked to remain in Vietnam. In the end even the communists felt they would be of more use in America. Some remain today loyal to the Hanoi line and yet get all the benefits other POWS and veterans get. Except Garwood of course because he is our 'Jesus' and he was crucified for all POW sins. Those collaborators more senior than he was got a bye and America only knows they were POWS.

How did the vast majority become POWS? They simply surrendered. There should never be glory in that. It is the shame of it which should preclude others from even contemplating it and fight to the last bullet. But, America had been so uncaring in the treatment of returning veterans that she needed 'heroes' and someone to honor and glorify. Thus the tiny group of POWS were selected for the honors, while most recipients of the highest battlefield honors were for the most part ignored, if not shunned by the public. In other words GUILT among our populace is the true genesis of the POW HERO syndrome. Politicians also needed people to stand next to at 'photo-ops' and POWS made great media coverage. After all, our leftist media needed to salve it's collective conscience for the lying it did which demoralized our own Soldiers and motivated our enemies to continue on. The American media bad mouth a POW? Only if his fellow POWS have designated him as our 'Jesus' figure to be crucified.

So should returned POWS have the right to enter politics? Of course, they should. Heck Ed Miller could have run wearing a VC conical hat and the left would still love that sorry excuse for a Marine. But this idea there is something sacrosanct about being a POW and thus they cannot be questioned about their actions or forced to reveal every record of their captivity and how they got there is a load of bull. The American people need to know every detail about all candidates for office including POWS. Merely release all records in total held by the US Government and if people are clear the need for 'Truth Squads' will disappear.

Lastly, lets stop the glorification of being captured. Thank men for enduring the hardship but also point out that this is what happens when you lose a fight. There should never be an upside to that. Then release every video, statement, picture and agent report which states how they performed in captivity and on the battlefield prior to capture. We have now come full circle and if running for office the American people deserve to know who we really were in those camps and in battle. The vast majority of POWS would come out fine in this scenario but some may not. There is precedent for this in the veteran community.

Just ask Senator John Kerry.


Major Mark A. Smith
United States Army, Retired

Former Prisoner Of War

[Greenhat]

I hope the Republican Party is paying attention.

[C-M-R]

Love him or hate him, Zippo makes you think.

That was great. Thank you.

[3dRanger]

Like John McCain or not, I for one am not going to judge a man's service as a POW and I'm sure as hell not going to say they simply surrendered. Major Smith is a former POW and he has earned that right. I have not.

[cb88]

I hope the Republican Party is paying attention.

They aren't and our country is doomed.:(

[Bravo Five Romeo]

They aren't and our country is doomed.:(
That's what I've been saying about them for the last 7 years. :D

[Greenhat]

Like John McCain or not, I for one am not going to judge a man's service as a POW and I'm sure as hell not going to say they simply surrendered. Major Smith is a former POW and he has earned that right. I have not.

I don't read it as saying they "simply surrendered" but that by nature of the fact that they became a POW, they did, in fact, surrender. Somehow.

I also think he's making a good point about who we call "heroes".

I don't have many people I consider heroes. Mark Smith wears a DSC for actions in combat. I think that is probably a better reason to consider him a hero than that he was a POW.

One of my few heroes was a POW. Colonel Rowe. But not for what happened in Vietnam, or for what he endured, or for his fantastic book. But for coming back on AD to pass the lessons he learned on to all of us. Something he chose to do, knowing full well how difficult it would be to convince the Army to let him do it.

To me, a hero is someone who chooses to do something that most people wouldn't do, knowing the risks, knowing the hardships... and they are things we admire people for.

The Police Officers and Firefighters who went into the WTC after those aircraft crashed into them? Those are heroes.

Do we admire someone for getting captured?

I think that is the point Major Smith is making.

[Terminator2]

Well...looks like we're going to have McCain for GOP whether we like it or not. I will sadly be voting for him against Hillary or Obama.

[Greenhat]

Well...looks like we're going to have McCain for GOP whether we like it or not. I will sadly be voting for him against Hillary or Obama.

It's a long way to the nomination, yet.

And if it's McCain vs. Clinton, I'll vote for Clinton.

If it's McCain vs. Obama, I'll vote for the Libertarian candidate.

I hope it's Romney vs. Clinton.

[KidA]

I won't vote for McCain not for the POW issue, but because he was treated like a little bitch by the Bush Campaign in SC in 2000 and after being used, and abused (some say even criminally) he rolled over like a warm fat puppy and licked the soles of their feet.

They called him the Fag Candidate. They said he cheated on his wife and fathered a black child, they said he was mentally unstable and so on.

And he just took it, then suckered up.

[3dRanger]

I also think he's making a good point about who we call "heroes".

To me, a hero is someone who chooses to do something that most people wouldn't do, knowing the risks, knowing the hardships... and they are things we admire people for.



I agree wholeheartedly and I don't think someone that happened to be a POW should be considered a hero just because they were a POW. On the other hand, I'm sure as hell not going to judge their time as a POW. If others that served with them choose to do so, well so be it. I went to SERE and I've heard, seen, and read the stories. Everyone has a different threshold. I think if people want to judge McCain by what he has done since he was a POW then so be it. This man who happened to room with McCain at the Hanoi Hilton for awhile seems to support him. http://www.pownetwork.org/bios/s/s126.htm

[magician]

I don't have many people I consider heroes. Mark Smith wears a DSC for actions in combat. I think that is probably a better reason to consider him a hero than that he was a POW.

To me, a hero is someone who chooses to do something that most people wouldn't do, knowing the risks, knowing the hardships... and they are things we admire people for.



I would like to mention that Mark Smith's Distinguished Service Cross citation is headed "Interim Award," and not because the Army was reserving the right to downgrade it to a Silver Star.

When Mark Smith got off the plane from Hanoi, he was wearing a Green Beret. Pissed some folks off. Namely, Creighton Abrams.

And that, as the saying goes, was that.

[magician]

Like John McCain or not, I for one am not going to judge a man's service as a POW and I'm sure as hell not going to say they simply surrendered. Major Smith is a former POW and he has earned that right. I have not.

Ray, that is exactly what Zippo is saying that you should do, if the man that you are judging is a candidate for the highest office in the land.

Do you judge him harshly? Of course not. You judge him mercifully, but you weigh all information in the calculus of making an electoral decision, and then, you exercise what what I believe is increasingly becoming a sham right and you cast a private vote.

I will say this again: you weigh all information in the calculus of making an electoral decision.

All information.

Note the following excerpts from Zippo's comments:


Perhaps it was inevitable that we should come to where we are now. So convoluted did our values become that now we hold aloft those who lost a fight as warriors to be emulated.

Savor the irony of these comments for a moment. If you ever have the honor of meeting Major Smith, you will realize that he has a keen sense of the ironical. He is a very funny man, but if you are asleep at the switch his humor will go right over your head.


I have direct knowledge of the suffering POWS endured but I also have knowledge of some who traded their honor for comfort in those camps.

Ask yourself why Zippo would make a comment like this in this context?

Even many who did their best sometimes make excuses about 'Nobody could have resisted that for long.'

Major Smith is describing one way that former POW's are given a pass, simply because they were POWs. I understand your reluctance to judge a man who was held prisoner. But I also think that you should not be shy about listening to men who were held prisoner with a guy, and then consider what they have to say about him.

If you think about what it means to be a POW, Zippo has already told us that it is not the act of capture which should be considered heroic.

What is heroic about the POW experience is sustained resistance against impossible odds, resistance when you are at the mercy of the enemy, and the battle becomes one of exploitation. Heroism is resisting when you are taken behind closed doors for torture, and no one can see what you do, and no one can hear how loudly that you scream, and you resist anyway, with everything that you have, even though your resistance is ultimately futile, a propos of nothing, and any moral point that you might make will only echo in the irrelevance of eternity.

That is heroism.

Heroism in these terms also comes from keeping faith with other prisoners, from supporting the prisoner chain-of-command, and in responding to the orders of ranking POW officers. As I say, from sustained resistance.

And yes, heroism in this context also comes from keeping faith with America, even though we all know now, or we should know by now, that American politicians will not keep faith with us, and will abandon us in a heartbeat, with the stroke of a pen, or in an oblique conversation on the sidelines of the Paris Peace Conference, or in a hearing on a hot day on Capitol Hill.

Just because our politicians are scum bags does not mean that we should emulate them. Indeed, because our politicians are scum bags, we should illustrate our repudiation of their values, and their lack of honor, by holding on ever more tightly to our own. Who will inherit the American soul? The powerful with their corrupt lackeys on the Hill? Or our kids?

No one can know, at this point, but even if the effort is doomed, I will still fight for the honor of America, and I know that you will, as well.




So should returned POWS have the right to enter politics? Of course, they should. Heck Ed Miller could have run wearing a VC conical hat and the left would still love that sorry excuse for a Marine. But this idea there is something sacrosanct about being a POW and thus they cannot be questioned about their actions or forced to reveal every record of their captivity and how they got there is a load of bull. The American people need to know every detail about all candidates for office including POWS. Merely release all records in total held by the US Government and if people are clear the need for 'Truth Squads' will disappear.



This is what Zippo is really saying, right here. If McCain has nothing to hide, and nothing to fear, then release all records. Simple.

Kerry still has not opened his records, and he never will. Neither will McCain.

The American people are stupid. We will forget, distracted by an endless news cycle of bullshit, focused on covering our bills at the end of the month, powering the great economic engine that was started at Bretton Woods, making money for bankers who just print more more when they want it.



Then release every video, statement, picture and agent report which states how they performed in captivity and on the battlefield prior to capture. We have now come full circle and if running for office the American people deserve to know who we really were in those camps and in battle. The vast majority of POWS would come out fine in this scenario but some may not.



I hope that Mark will write more. If he does, I will ask him for permission to post his comments here and elsewhere.

His detractors aside, there is no doubt in my mind that he is a great man. I am privileged and honored to know him.

[RetPara]

Is there someplace that I get quotes from Mark and cross-post them with his permission?

[cb88]

That's what I've been saying about them for the last 7 years. :D


And yet you haven't figured out your on the wrong side. :D

[Silverbullet]

They aren't and our country is doomed.:(


Our country is only doomed if we the people allow it to be.

[magician]

Is there someplace that I get quotes from Mark and cross-post them with his permission?

Everything that I am posting here has been explicitly authorized by Major Smith. If you read it here, he granted permission for it to be widely distributed. He stands by his words. You can disseminate from here.

Mark comments on issues of the day mostly via email, though I have seen him participate in various website discussions as well.

He has been invited here (and elsewhere) on multiple occasions. Rather than waiting for him to finally make it here, I simply ask his permission to post or to further distribute those emails that he shares with me that I think need a wider audience.

[Greenhat]

His detractors aside, there is no doubt in my mind that he is a great man. I am privileged and honored to know him.

x 2

[cb88]

Our country is only doomed if we the people allow it to be.

That is what I fear most....apathy among the majority of Americans.

GH made a good point when he said that maybe if Hillary was in and enacted all of her socialist programs and put the country in the toilet, the people might finally wake up/revolt.

Why is it that most people are apathetic until it is almost too late?

[KidA]

That is what I fear most....apathy among the majority of Americans.

GH made a good point when he said that maybe if Hillary was in and enacted all of her socialist programs and put the country in the toilet, the people might finally wake up/revolt.


Are you kidding? Who would revolt? The rich people? Why? They may be pissed but if you're a billionaire paying millions in taxes, you're still a billionaire. If you're a millionaire paying hundreds of thousands in taxes, you're still a millionaire. If you're a hundredthousandaire paying tens of thousands you're still a fuck of a lot better off than the majority of the population.

If she enacted her socialist programs (don't forget we already have socialist programs from the military (yes it is socialist - you get free room and board and other amenities provided by the taxpayer in addition to a salary) and its benefits to social security, to schools (do your kids ride the bus? Socialist program) and more:

Government Worker Programs
Civil Service Retirement Systems
Federal Employee Retirement Systems
Railroad Retirement System

Housing & Urban Development (HUD) Programs
Public Housing
Rental Vouchers & Certificates
Section 8 Housing Vouchers
Shelter Plus Care
Single Room Occupancy
Low Income Home Energy Assistance

Social Security Programs
Social Security (OASDI)
Unemployment Insurance
Temporary Disability Insurance
Medicare
Medicaid
Medicare Prescription Drug Plan

Welfare Programs
Supplemental Security Income
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families
Food Stamp Program
Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC)
National School Lunch Program
School Breakfast Program
United States Department of Agriculture (USDA)

All of these are socialist in nature.

About the only Socialist thing left is government provided health care, and, honestly, who is going to revolt over that? Poor and middle class you don't have health care or are struggling to afford it?

Nah. There will be no revolt.

[cb88]

Are you kidding me??? The military is not socialist, they (you guys) work for every damned benefit you get and then some!!! If you are a screw up or a waste of space, you will be "purged" somehow from the government payroll. You cannot say that about welfare or any other government program. The military is not socialistic by a long stretch.

I don't care if I made a gazillion dollars, if I risked my money, worked hard and made it, why should some other shit sit on their ass and get ONE DIME of it.

America is the land of opportunity... ANYONE can succeed at anything they want. They just have to be willing to work for it--but most want a hand out rather than a hand up.

If someone doesn't succeed in America it is because they are making excuses rather than finding solutions.

[KidA]

Are you kidding me??? The military is not socialist, they (you guys) work for every damned benefit you get and then some!!!

I don't care if I made a gazillion dollars, if I risked my money, worked hard and made it, why should some other shit sit on their ass and get ONE DIME of it.

America is the land of opportunity... ANYONE can succeed at anything they want. They just have to be willing to work for it--but most want a hand out rather than a hand up.

The military still operates on a distribution of wealth policy - people are taxed and then the money is distributed to the military. That's socialism. It's a very tame form because we need a national defense, but it is still socialism.

Why should they? Because they are part of society. Why should some other kid get educated with your tax dollars? Why should someone who can't afford a house (maybe they're disabled) get a housing voucher? Why should a woman whose husband left her with three kids get free milk? If you drive your kid to school why should you pay to have some other kid bussed to school? Why should people without kids pay for the public education system?

Because helping people helps society. Are there shitbags who use the system? Of course. But there are many millions whom the programs help, that's why we have them.

All of these programs operate under the assumption (with the exception of retirement plans which are definitely socialist in nature and are in exchange for doing nothing (you've already performed the work and been paid for it) that if you help people they can better concentrate on work: If you provide housing vouchers then they have a place to live while they work, if you help them with monetary funds they can pay bills while getting back on their feet to work, and so on. Why feed some one else's kid with free lunch? Shouldn't they just starve if the parents aren't working? That seems to be what you're advocating. No, we feed the kid with tax dollars so they can pay attention in school and hopefully better themselves out of that situation .

And actually you can say that about welfare. Way back in the 1990s they enacted rules that govern how long you can remain on welfare. Welfare to Work, remember?

[Bravo Five Romeo]

Kid A has a point.
We already have "socialist" programs where everyone's taxes pays for services for all.
When the police come when I call about a problem, they don't hand me a bill.
I don't send my kids to public school with a check for the principal.
I am yet to pay for any book I read in the library.
Fire department doesn't bill me and my neighbors when a lightining strike causes a fire on my block.

Also, no one in this country is going to rise up in open revolt anytime soon... especially not the haves for being slightly inconvenienced if new programs favor the have-nots.

[Hot Mess]

Ya, as I see it the military is kind of a socialist organization, just like unions. Looking at the regular military through SOF glasses and one might whole heartedly agree.

[Greenhat]

Are you kidding? Who would revolt? The rich people? Why? They may be pissed but if you're a billionaire paying millions in taxes, you're still a billionaire. If you're a millionaire paying hundreds of thousands in taxes, you're still a millionaire. If you're a hundredthousandaire paying tens of thousands you're still a fuck of a lot better off than the majority of the population.

If she enacted her socialist programs (don't forget we already have socialist programs from the military (yes it is socialist - you get free room and board and other amenities provided by the taxpayer in addition to a salary) and its benefits to social security, to schools (do your kids ride the bus? Socialist program) and more:

Government Worker Programs
Civil Service Retirement Systems
Federal Employee Retirement Systems
Railroad Retirement System

Housing & Urban Development (HUD) Programs
Public Housing
Rental Vouchers & Certificates
Section 8 Housing Vouchers
Shelter Plus Care
Single Room Occupancy
Low Income Home Energy Assistance

Social Security Programs
Social Security (OASDI)
Unemployment Insurance
Temporary Disability Insurance
Medicare
Medicaid
Medicare Prescription Drug Plan

Welfare Programs
Supplemental Security Income
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families
Food Stamp Program
Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC)
National School Lunch Program
School Breakfast Program
United States Department of Agriculture (USDA)

All of these are socialist in nature.

About the only Socialist thing left is government provided health care, and, honestly, who is going to revolt over that? Poor and middle class you don't have health care or are struggling to afford it?

Nah. There will be no revolt.

Rich people leave. They don't revolt. They move.

The people who work (who are the ones really screwed by socialism) are the ones that revolt. The middle-class and working lower-class.

[The Corporate Guy]

The military still operates on a distribution of wealth policy - people are taxed and then the money is distributed to the military. That's socialism. It's a very tame form because we need a national defense, but it is still socialism.

Nope. Socialism is about redistribution of wealth and social reform, neither of which are the objectives or practices of the military. Collective services for the common defense have socialistic undertones only in the most remote sense. The benefits (such as healthcare, housing, etc.) are there to manage order, remove individual burdens which would inhibit organizational effectiveness and provide flexibility and control. They are not there to redistribute wealth or force social reform.

The other programs you list do have more socialistic objectives.

[cb88]

Why should some other kid get educated with your tax dollars?

I have no problem with the public education system if they stick to the three R's and not teaching "agendas"...that's not a handout, that's a hand up...

Why should someone who can't afford a house (maybe they're disabled) get a housing voucher?

I've seen people with disabilities overcome some prety amazing things when they want to. I'm not saying all can, but many, if not most, can if they want to. I've also seen people who really are just pretty damn fat from sitting around collect disability because they are too fucking fat to work. Hand up...not hand out. Low income housing prices for those that are down on their luck being retrained, great--- that's a hand up. Free house for life for someone who is on disability because they won't help themselves, no go -- that's a hand out.

Why should a woman whose husband left her with three kids get free milk?

No problem with programs like WIC or food stamps for low income working poor....that's a hand up, not a hand out. Though I still feel the programs would be better run if given back to the local communities to make the judgements (and I'm not talking a local welfare office -- in the past charity was always the job of the church or other non profit, non governmental organizations).

If you drive your kid to school why should you pay to have some other kid bussed to school? Why should people without kids pay for the public education system?

I'm all for school vouchers...and, hey, if we didn't have to pay property taxes (which also get passed onto renters....) then we could all afford a more competitive education system for our children. But, again, I really don't have a problem with public education in theory...just the way it's ran. K-12 should be a government service to a degree. There are things the government was meant for, and things they weren't. When it comes to college/university -- well, they can rack up the student loans just like I did. If they want to succeed, that won't stop them, they'll be able to pay on them like the rest of us when they get that better job that the education afforded them. Or they can apply for grants & scholarships like everyone else.

Why feed some one else's kid with free lunch? Shouldn't they just starve if the parents aren't working? That seems to be what you're advocating. No, we feed the kid with tax dollars so they can pay attention in school and hopefully better themselves out of that situation .

Do you know where the school lunch program comes from? It's not from the welfare department. It is from the agriculture department in many states.

And actually you can say that about welfare. Way back in the 1990s they enacted rules that govern how long you can remain on welfare. Welfare to Work, remember?

And yet we still have people that have managed to find loopholes and be third generation welfare babies. Just like those that mess with the unemployment income...go back to work for a few weeks, maybe a few months, and then right back onto welfare.

[cb88]

Rich people leave. They don't revolt. They move.

The people who work (who are the ones really screwed by socialism) are the ones that revolt. The middle-class and working lower-class.

And that's a fact, Jack!!!

Hey, GH, when the country goes to hell in a handbasket, can I come work for you???? I'll have my MBA's in May. I can learn Thai :D :D :D

[KidA]

I have no problem with the public education system if they stick to the three R's and not teaching "agendas"...that's not a handout, that's a hand up...



I've seen people with disabilities overcome some prety amazing things when they want to. I'm not saying all can, but many, if not most, can if they want to. I've also seen people who really are just pretty damn fat from sitting around collect disability because they are too fucking fat to work. Hand up...not hand out.



No problem with programs like WIC or food stamps for low income working poor....that's a hand up, not a hand out. T



But, again, I really don't have a problem with public education in theory...



Do you know where the school lunch program comes from? It's not from the welfare department. It is from the agriculture department in many states.
I know exactly where it comes from, but it's still a socialist program. It's still taking tax dollars from the many and distributing them to the few.

So what you are saying is that you are ok with socialism, right? Hand up, not hand out. That's exactly what socialism proposes - helping the less fortunate with a pot of money everyone contributes.

[cb88]

I know exactly where it comes from, but it's still a socialist program. It's still taking tax dollars from the many and distributing them to the few.

So what you are saying is that you are ok with socialism, right? Hand up, not hand out. That's exactly what socialism proposes - helping the less fortunate with a pot of money everyone contributes.

No, socialism wants to take my money and then decide what it is going to do, including GIVING it away to people who want to sit on their asses. Socialism is a permant solution to a temporary problem.

"Hand up" is a temporary situation to a temporary problem.

If I were the head huncho, you wanted assistance, you can do something, even if it's licking stamps to send out tax refund checks to those who overpaid taxes because they worked their asses off. :p

[KidA]

No, socialism wants to take my money and then decide what it is going to do, including GIVING it away to people who want to sit on their asses. Socialism is a permant solution to a temporary problem.

"Hand up" is a temporary situation to a temporary problem.

If I were the head huncho, you wanted assistance, you can do something, even if it's licking stamps to send out tax refund checks to those who overpaid taxes because they worked their asses off. :p

What about those who overpaid taxes because their grandparents worked their asses off and they inherited millions but have never done a thing in their lives?:D

You can call it a "temporary solution (I think that's the word you meant) to a temporary problem" all you want, but it is still socialism.

You pay taxes, the government decides what it is going to do with it - whether it is school lunches, the military, housing vouchers, retirement plans for government workers, or, as B5R said, the fire department or police department....and so on.

Socialism. The government deciding what's good for the populace and where the money should be distributed.

And where, just for arguments sake, would you put all the people who are too lazy to work? Out of their houses? Then what? They live in the street? Where? Where do they eat, or sleep? Where do they get the means to survive? Garbage? Or theft perhaps? Where do they get medical attention? Nowhere? Disease spreads, and you catch it...bet you'd wish they'd been taken care of then huh? :D

[cb88]

And where, just for arguments sake, would you put all the people who are too lazy to work? Out of their houses? Then what? They live in the street? Where? Where do they eat, or sleep? Where do they get the means to survive? Garbage? Or theft perhaps? Where do they get medical attention? Nowhere? Disease spreads, and you catch it...bet you'd wish they'd been taken care of then huh? :D


Sooooooo, liberals only believe in Darwinism (survival of the fittest) when it suits them???? :D


(and, yes, I meant solution...sorry, typing two reports at once..situation/risk report and here...I better check my report to make sure it doesn't say anything that came from here :D :p )

[BigNickT]

So what you are saying is that you are ok with socialism, right? Hand up, not hand out. That's exactly what socialism proposes - helping the less fortunate with a pot of money everyone contributes.

That's bullshit. Socialism is about redistribution period. The recipient is under no obligation to work harder, pay back the handout, or make a contribution back to the community. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Of course there is the school of thought that if you don't pull your weight you go off somewhere to be reeducated. Definitions vary, but none of them include the idea that the beneficiary is required to do anything except benefit.

None of the programs oin the U.S. are socialist. They may be social programs, or maybe governmental, or societal programs. They are tax funded. In socialism there are no taxes per se because everything, including the sweat off your brow, is the property of the community. The collective takes everything and then doles it out to each "according to his need." You can be the most productive SOB in the commune, but if you don't display a need you ain't getting jack shit.

Say you've got some 300 pound chick with 4 kids and no babydaddy. You, on the other hand are a productive single guy who makes a good living. You're going to pay to support that woman and her family. The community is going to take everything you make, and distribute it back out to all six of you. And not equally, but based on what the head tovarich percieves as being the best way to do it. So now you get to work just as hard for one sixth of the reward. If you're lucky. Yeah I know it's not just you and your new girlfriend and her kids in the community.

This shit always looks reasonable when you're talking about millions of people. Right now we have about 12-14 workers supporting one person on welfare. By 2050 or so we'll have 3 workers supporting one recipient. basically your income will need to quadruple in real dollars, or you better get used to living on one fourth what you make now. Because the "needy" aren't going to accept less. Bet your ass on that.

Tax out

[Forestboy]

And where, just for arguments sake, would you put all the people who are too lazy to work? Out of their houses? Then what? They live in the street? Where? Where do they eat, or sleep? Where do they get the means to survive? Garbage? Or theft perhaps? Where do they get medical attention? Nowhere? Disease spreads, and you catch it...bet you'd wish they'd been taken care of then huh? :D

Aren't the majority already in DC? We will just send the rest of them there...:D

[Silverbullet]

I get a good laugh when I see comments about socialism and our tax system being somehow alike as well as our military being "somewhat" akin to it.

Do those who are making those comments actually know what socialism is? Do you know that it is a political system not just a financial system or taxation system? Do you even know what you are talking about when you make comparisons of apples vs oranges?

Socialism is a political system that takes away free will and denies free people the ability to rise above the status the state has decided they should be.

Comparing taxes on a free society to socialism is beyond stupid and minimizes the full extent of what socialism dies to a society. If you don't want to do that much research just study France and how it's status in the world declined immediately after it went socialist. You couldn't even work voluntary overtime during that period. Funny how they now decided to go a different course in an effort to regain the productivity and status they held in the world now.

Our mil isn't a form of socialism except to those who don't understand the different btwn it and the need for a common defense funded by our nation as defined in the Constitution.

Normal taxes that we pay to help infrastructure and other required national issues have nothing to do with socialism. The overabundance of entitlement programs and the publics dependence on them are a key indicator of a society sliding into socialism. We may be at that tipping point. When you have politicians promising to fund this and that regardless of what it is, then we need to be alert. We need to be even more alert when the majority of our citizens argue that it's not a bad thing and then try and compare it to normal taxation. Seeing it posted here is alarming since it shows how far this idea that entitlements are ok has sunk in. The same idea that excepting those that need help due to physical or mental impairments, there are have and have nots in out country.

This flies directly in the face of the face that there are actually those who made good decisions and those that didn't make good decisions. Those who make the bad decisions expect the gov't to bail them out. The same govt' that has no money except what it receives from those who actually work and make the decisions that allow them to continue to earn an income.

[Greenhat]

Hey, GH, when the country goes to hell in a handbasket, can I come work for you???? I'll have my MBA's in May. I can learn Thai :D :D :D

Sure.

[KidA]

I get a good laugh when I see comments about socialism and our tax system being somehow alike as well as our military being "somewhat" akin to it.

Do those who are making those comments actually know what socialism is? Do you know that it is a political system not just a financial system or taxation system? Do you even know what you are talking about when you make comparisons of apples vs oranges?

Socialism is a political system that takes away free will and denies free people the ability to rise above the status the state has decided they should be.

.....

.

Good post. For the record I am not nor was I advocating for any of those programs listed. I was asking someone adamant against "socialist" programs what they would do away with, or do with the people who no longer had these "entitlements."

All of this was due to cb88 using the phrase about Hillary instituting "socialist" programs - I was pointing out that if a National Health Care program is "socialist" (I assume that is what cb88 was talking about since that's really the only thing Clinton is for), then all these other programs are also "socialist" in nature.

Socialist in the strictest form? No. Socialist-lite, perhaps? Socialist-inspired?

But then again if it costs a few million to keep people relatively fed and housed instead of having hundreds of thousands more homeless running around in the streets is it really such a bad thing? Think of the repercussions for society as a whole if entitlement programs were shut off. Hell there'd be so much criminal activity we wouldn't know what to do about it.

[rgrjoe175]

Hell there'd be so much criminal activity we wouldn't know what to do about it.

"We" already don't know what to do about it. If we did, there would be very little crime and no jail overcrowding..etc...etc. That debate will go on forever.

JP

[Silverbullet]

KidA,
I personally think the jr Senator form NY is a socialist. It's not directly based upon her tax ideas which I think are worng since I have never seen an increase in taxes help.

My views on her being a socialist are based on her use of terms like, "our money" when talking about large companies and her further talk about "taking said money and redistributing it. She plans on using pure wealth redistribution to finance her promises. Pure socialism.

Her health plan ideas are the same since she plans on making it mandatory and taking the free choice out of peoples hands.

I also think McCain has a bit of this in him as well. He certainly has a problem with businesses and likes to demonize and denigrate free-market leaders.

[cb88]

My other problem with Hillary is she is a woman. I'm sorry, I know that sounds sexist and strange coming from a woman. The problem is, while the US may be ready for a female POTUS, the world isn't. Many of our allies and enemies do not respect women--even if they hold a position of authority. It's not just the Middle East, it's Asia, Latin America, and so on. I am not worried about us being the "laughing stock", but I don't think Hillary has the moxie or intellect to stand up to them. I'm not saying she's "stupid"...she certainly has her cunning side, but her little displays of crying because she was being picked on shows she has not clue one on how to deal with a tough situation. I understand those were crocodile tears for the camera...but it worries me that she thinks she can use that to manipulate people at that high of a level.

I could be wrong about my opinion....and it's certainly not my only reason for detesting her. It's just my opinion from my own sheltered little room.

[cb88]

Sure.

Wahoo...hey, ummm, I may be easy but I'm not cheap. :D :D :cool:

[smp52]

My views on her being a socialist are based on her use of terms like, "our money" when talking about large companies and her further talk about "taking said money and redistributing it. She plans on using pure wealth redistribution to finance her promises. Pure socialism.

Her health plan ideas are the same since she plans on making it mandatory and taking the free choice out of peoples hands.

The more I read into Hillary Clinton's speeches, the more she reminds me of someone who said the following:

We cherish freedom of speech, of association and of belief, and the right to life, liberty, and the protection of law, but we cannot agree that fundamental liberties include opportunities for a small number of individuals to amass unlimited property. People steeped in poverty naturally yearn for relief from want and social injustice. This can be achieved only through a vast expansion of the productive apparatus and equitable distribution of the fruits of progress.

It is obvious that development cannot be left to the mercy of market forces. The profit motive which deifies the rights of owners of property denies hope to millions. State intervention becomes necessary to insure that the limited resources are directed into priority sectors of the economy.

We aim at growth with social justice. A different strategy might have yielded increased industrial production and a higher rate of growth, but there is no doubt that any approach leading to greater concentration of economic power in private hands would give cause for explosive social tensions and would distort, even disrupt, our entire democratic structure.

These words were said by Indira Gandhi - a socialist who climbed up the political power structure as a legacy, not by earning her chops (like Hillary), and if ANYONE wants an after action report on what socialism can do to a democratic country, read the book, "India after Gandhi" by Ramachandra Guha. Frankly, after reading that, I can't think of any American coming out thinking "Gee, socialism had any benefits". But I don't think people will be into reading empirical and well documented accounts about what socialism can do in the first place.

The socialist policies of western Europe may look appealing, but Scandinavian countries aren't the United States economically, socially, politically, demographically, etc. If anything, socialism with a stronger federal center will result in MORE instability and chaos over the long run, particularly when a country is the most diverse it has ever been.

I just don't want another legacy candidate in the office. The status quo and concentration of power among 'families' has resulted in the decay of plenty of nations. Seriously, we've got 300 million Americans. There has to be handful that are better at running the nation than a Clinton or Bush.

[NightLandNav]

cb88,

I agree the world is not ready for a "Hillary" as POTUS...especially since it means those "two" are in the WH again.

But...solely based on POTUS being a woman...the right woman would make the office her own.

A Margaret Thatcher type...but prettier...with a better ass...

...never mind.

[Remington Raider]

Tonight, on Hannity and Colmes, Ann Coulter said that if McCain was the Republican nominee she would CAMPAIGN for Hilary Clinton. When I regained consciness, I stopped all Diet Coke intake. That movie "The Matrix" - it's real.
Be afraid, be very afraid.:eek:

[cb88]

cb88,

I agree the world is not ready for a "Hillary" as POTUS...especially since it means those "two" are in the WH again.

But...solely based on POTUS being a woman...the right woman would make the office her own.

A Margaret Thatcher type...but prettier...with a better ass...

...never mind.


Condi could pull it off...

I really wish she would have ran.

[KidA]

My other problem with Hillary is she is a woman. I'm sorry, I know that sounds sexist and strange coming from a woman. The problem is, while the US may be ready for a female POTUS, the world isn't. .

But they're ok with a female leader of Pakistan? Of India? Of Great Britain?

But I agree with you: Fuck her. Fuck Obama, Fuck McCain.

I didn't think it could get worse than having to choose between Kerry and Bush.

Shows what I get for thinking.

[cb88]

But they're ok with a female leader of Pakistan? Of India? Of Great Britain?

But I agree with you: Fuck her. Fuck Obama, Fuck McCain.

I didn't think it could get worse than having to choose between Kerry and Bush.

Shows what I get for thinking.

We're just doomed, the whole country is sinking and we're trying to bail it out with a thimble....

I'm packing for Thailand. :D :p


I really don't think Hillary will be McCain, though. I hear rumblings...quite a few Democrats that can't stand Hillary that will vote for McCain...then again, quite a few Republicans that don't like McCain that will vote for Hillary.

Wonder what the odds are in Vegas right now??

[KidA]

Wonder what the odds are in Vegas right now??

I wouldn't be able to take a bet on those odds. It's like choosing to be shit on between one asshole or another - why does it matter? It's still shit.

[cb88]

http://specials.slate.com/futures/2008/presidential/

Can someone translate for this non-gambler what these odds mean?? :D

[The Corporate Guy]

The more I read into Hillary Clinton's speeches, the more she reminds me of someone who said the following:


...these words were said by Indira Gandhi

...and how did that end up for Indira Gandhi? :D

[Greenhat]

http://specials.slate.com/futures/2008/presidential/

Can someone translate for this non-gambler what these odds mean?? :D

Think of the price as a %. So Hillary has a 36.4% chance of winning. McCain a 35% chance. Etc...

[NightLandNav]

cb88,

To your credit you responded to the only mature part of my post. Condi? I have to admit, I never really thought about her running for the big job.

I had WAY more faith in her candor and steadfast ethics pre-SEC State. Which when she was the NSA head honcho...honchess, was impressive.

GEN C Powell...(I actually met him, but that's another topic)...he was a hard act for anyone to follow. I'm not judging her by his precedent. Or anyone else...just on how willing she is, or isn't, to look into the camera and lie her ass off.

She's a terrible liar for a woman...(don't take this the wrong way, women lie waythefuck less than men...they're just usually much better at it...and tend to save the lies for really big shit...guys, we're idiots, we lie about beer.) Anyway...Condi; the fact that she is so conflicted with lying gives me hope for her...to lie less when she no longer has too.

But, it is all for naught...anything other than Billary, McCain, Obama, Romney...is wasted keystrokes.


...so where in Thailand is a good spot for ex-pats?


...still, I expect everyone living here around 1863 thought the country was going to shit on a shingle then too.


...which it was. That one took allot of work.


But, they couldn't be on a beach in Phuket within 18hrs either.

[MPCOA]

...still, I expect everyone living here around 1863 thought the country was going to shit on a shingle then too..
Is it that bad really?

How long have women been allowed to vote?
How long have people of color?
18 year olds(even though we took their right to drink:D )?

Everyone talks about how bad it is getting, I think it's just changing. I don't like all of them, but a lot of people didn't like those.

[NightLandNav]

Is it that bad really?

How long have women been allowed to vote?
How long have people of color?
18 year olds(even though we took their right to drink:D )?

Everyone talks about how bad it is getting, I think it's just changing. I don't like all of them, but a lot of people didn't like those.

You help prove my point...it's nothing near as "all things bad" as it was from 1861-1865.

Not even close.

Yet they made it. Yes it sucked, yes it was hard. But they made it. And they made "it" better...much better. Not perfect, but one step closer.

So...really, what the fuck seems so "hopeless" to us now?

Exactly.

It's not hopeless, it's just hard work.

And it's sure as shit not the first time.

[cb88]

My fear is not just about Hillary but that she wins AND there are no major changes in the house and senate -- *shudders* -- Hillary with Speaker Pelosi??? We're seriously doomed.

Stock up on your guns and ammo now...not for a revolt (well, maybe) but because if they have their way they will shit all over the 2nd amendment (not to mention pushing their socialist agendas).

[MPCOA]

You help prove my point...it's nothing near as "all things bad" as it was from 1861-1865.

Not even close.

Yet they made it. Yes it sucked, yes it was hard. But they made it. And they made "it" better...much better. Not perfect, but one step closer.

So...really, what the fuck seems so "hopeless" to us now?

Exactly.

It's not hopeless, it's just hard work.

And it's sure as shit not the first time.
To even go more on a tangent, people bitch about this generation and such, I happen to think that there are some great young adults right now. Everyone on here probably knows at least a few. They just don't make as much noise as the shitheads and may only become known from their last deeds.

[Linear]

Because helping people helps society. Are there shitbags who use the system? Of course. But there are many millions whom the programs help, that's why we have them.

All of these programs operate under the assumption (with the exception of retirement plans which are definitely socialist in nature and are in exchange for doing nothing (you've already performed the work and been paid for it) that if you help people they can better concentrate on work: If you provide housing vouchers then they have a place to live while they work, if you help them with monetary funds they can pay bills while getting back on their feet to work, and so on. Why feed some one else's kid with free lunch? Shouldn't they just starve if the parents aren't working? That seems to be what you're advocating. No, we feed the kid with tax dollars so they can pay attention in school and hopefully better themselves out of that situation .


Problem is that there's some evidence that private charity does a lot better job than government charity. And, worse, that government charity replaces private charity.

Private charity may be more discriminating in who it helps. It makes money stretch further. It does not encourage the break-up of families. It offers more than just cash and so on. Ever read Olasky, "The Tragedy of American Compassion?" or Charles Murray, "Losing Ground"?

[MikeC2W]

But they're ok with a female leader of Pakistan? Of India? Of Great Britain?

But I agree with you: Fuck her. Fuck Obama, Fuck McCain.

I didn't think it could get worse than having to choose between Kerry and Bush.

Shows what I get for thinking.


No shit aye...

[stllearnin]

You know things are f*cked when Ann Coulter on national television says that she will campaign and vote for Clinton if McCain gets the Republican Nominations. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[24/7]

Very interesting thread...I didn't realize that McCain had all of the baggage that he does. We're likely to face some unwanted decisions, I sure has hell don't want to vote for the guy but I couldn't bring myself to vote for something other than the Republican nominee. The Democratic candidates are just too scary.

The Governments big enough...too much waste already going on, too many entitlement programs, too much wealth redistribution.

[KidA]

Here's that skanky Coulter bashing McCain on the teevee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuTqgqhxVMc

[Greenhat]

Stock up on your guns and ammo now...not for a revolt (well, maybe) but because if they have their way they will shit all over the 2nd amendment (not to mention pushing their socialist agendas).


How are the people who are afraid of guns going to take away the guns from those who have them?

As for Coulter, she's right that Clinton is more conservative than McCain.

[cb88]

How are the people who are afraid of guns going to take away the guns from those who have them?



A gun doesn't work if you don't have ammo...well, unless you are going to chuck it at your assailant. :D

Of course, if you reload your own...never mind. :p

[Parajuevos]

Here's that skanky Coulter bashing McCain on the teevee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuTqgqhxVMc

Coulter is a sack of nuts and Hannity is a fat assed talk show host who thinks that anyone to the left of Attila the Hun is a liberal. The same goes for Limbaugh.

I consider myself a moderate conservative and don't like the rigidity of either the far left or the far right. Whether we want to acknowledge it or not, it will take a moderate, who can work with both parties, to get this country back on track. I happen to support McCain. Someone else may find another moderate to support. The bottom line is that we need someone who can compromise, when compromise is needed.

Hillary is an anti military socialist. McCain is not. I wouldn't vote for Hillary if she was running for dog catcher.

[Greenhat]

Hillary is an anti military socialist. McCain is not.


Their Senate voting records indicate otherwise.