The future of Law Enforcement?

[Tex]

In these rapidly changing times, it seems that the fine-line between LE and Military tactics is almost completely non-existant or at least starting to fade.

Many police departments (municipal) have gone from shotguns to AR-15's. Recruit training has been revamped to include more fire-arms training, PT, and hand to hand fighting proficiency. Now, I know this does not reflect the changes of all LE agencies, but many have started to train the police more as a "reaction and peace keeping force".
In many dept's. nation wide, educational standards have been raised in hopes to recruit more level headed and reliable people. New improvements also involve the use of "non-lethal" weapons.
As far as the police dept's. that have fulltime SWAT teams, like L.A. County's Sheriff's Office, their training borders on military training, they have trained with the Navy SEALs to hone their CQB skills and basic diving skills. NYPD's Emergency Services Unit (ESU) which trains to handle everything from SWAT calls to supplying emergency care as EMT's, have trained with the AirForce PJ's and Coast Guard for years.

It seems that the "police", nation wide, are becoming more like the military and perhaps in many ways.....vice-versa.
So, for you folks in the military and police dept's. what do you think the future holds? Do you think eventualy that the police and the military will be one entity, like it is in many countries? Do you think that the future of police work will entail becoming more like "soldiers"?

[Tex]

A couple other points I meant to include in my prior post are; I have heard the argument many times that many police depts. (mainly municipal not federal) want to hire new recruits for patrol and SWAT rolls with no prior military experience. This "new way" is a way to get people without prior habits that they may bring to the dept. from the military environment.
Of course this does not reflect the feeling and desires of all municipal dept's., but I have heard this being done more and more.

I personaly feel that prior military experience would be an asset, but many police departments believe this to NOT be the case.
Most SWAT officers be it "part-timers or full-timers" have less than 4 to 5 years on the department, are in great physical condition, and many are either persuing a college eduacation or have already obtained one......with the exception of a few. I have read that getting onto a SWAT team is very competitive, and physicaly demanding. A couple important factors in order to be considered for a position like this are; arrest records, job proficiency, and even convictions of arrested suspects.

For some of you SWAT folks out there what was the standard you had to meet to get a position with your unit?

[RECON5]

Never mind.....

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[bd]

It's okay RECON5, I have the oar... I'll take a stab...

Tex,

A lot of what you've stated/questioned has been covered in previous posts. Look them up.

In the United States of America we have what is called the Constitution (a foreign concept in most schools these days). The military will not and cannot replace LE. The military enforces policy... LE/SWAT enforce the law. Two totally different missions that DO NOT mesh.

SWAT training is not military training (some of the skills are similar, the application is different). Thus, military experience is not required. What teams are looking for are good officers first and foremost. Military experience does not automatically = good officer.

Look at the SWAT section on this site (shameless plug) for info on general requirements and training.

BD

[Tracy]

Having worked both sides of the fence, I can emphatically state that Police and Military tactics are WORLDS APART.

Most cop shops that switched to M-16s have done so for one or more reasons:

1. Better terminal ballistics than the 12 gauge shotgun. Believe-it-or-not, most shotgun wounds are not fatal beyond 7 YARDS.

2. Better accuracy than the 12 gauge shotgun.

3. Less recoil than a shotgun. This is a big factor IMHO. I weigh 206 pounds and used a grenade launcher all my life, so I could make a shotgun work for me. Police Officers don't have that luxury.

Civilian demands drive the weapons choice as well. The civvies want PRECISION in handling of crises. It's unfortunate that the best weapon out there is an M-16. Not even the MP-5 has the versaltility of a rifle round applied properly.

It's unfortunate that Police Officers have to use sniper rifles, assault weapons and pistols; but suspects stopped giving up when they were trapped.

Statisically, Cops only use these 'military' weapons in 10% of the crisis situations calling for an armed response. That tells me they are trying to find alternative ways of PEACEFULLY resolving a situation BEFORE the rounds fly.

If the military had the tasking of taking down suspects who don't want to give up, those same weapons would be used 100 percent of the time. I repeatedly told the criminals in Mogadishu that if they give me a military problem, they'll get a military solution. 40 or 50 dead technicals later, they started to understand my answer.

It's unfortunate that those POLICE WEAPONS look like military weapons; but they're not used in a military manner.

It's unfortunate that the POLICE TACTICS look like military tactics; but they're not used in a military manner.

Can the Cops learn from the Grunts? Sure, bullets and bad guys don't care if you're blue or green. We certainly learned from the Cops: Force Continuum, Less-than-Lethal weapons, Community Policing.

The similarities are coincidental. What the LE folks need to do is have better PR to illustrate the differences.


BTW: As an experiment, take a patrol officer and remove EVERYTHING that the military invented and used first. You'd have a naked cop standing in front of you. So if the extremists want to remove everything military from a Police Officer's repitoire, all you'd have left is a ctizen who cares about the community; but has no way of carrying out their intent.

[This message has been edited by Tracy (edited 03-12-2001).]

[dragonrain]

Tracy, excellent, excellent post.


dr

[dragonrain]

double tap

dr

[This message has been edited by dragonrain (edited 03-14-2001).]

[Tracy]

Feedback anyone?

Or, did I really annoy y'all with that post?

[ANACONDA]

NOPE, YOU HIT THE NAIL DEAD ON THE HEAD.
WELL DONE TOO, BY THE WAY.
INMHO,
THE MILITARY GOES OUT IN FORCE TO KILL AND DESTROY.
THE POLICE GO OUT TO PRESERVE THE PEACE, APPREHEND SUSPECTS, SUPRESS AND PREVENT CRIME.
THIS PEACE-KEEPING THING LIKE IN BOSNIA AND KOSOVO, WELL, I'VE NEVER BEEN IN THE MILITARY BUT I DON'T THINK THAT IS A FUNCTION IT SHOULD BE TASKED TO PERFORM.

LIKE MR. SCOTT FROM STAR TREK SAID-
"USE THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE RIGHT JOB !"

[RECON5]

Ok you mentioned the need for a PR person for LE....... I nominate you.
Very well put and respectfull to both parties not to mention accurate.

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[RogueExec]

Tracy...........you rock, bro. Sorry I stayed away so long.

[Tracy]

Originally posted by RECON5:
Ok you mentioned the need for a PR person for LE....... I nominate you.
Very well put and respectful to both parties not to mention accurate.


Let's up the ante a bit. I'm about as welcome with Police Organizations as a fart in an elevator. How about you forwarding my blurb to NTOA and IACP? See what they think...

It will get sh*tcanned if I don't have a "Brass Pass" when I present it.

Or, I'll go one better: If I write a slightly broader article about civilian concerns over paramilitary tactics by police, will you forward it for publication?

Now it's YOUR *

;-)




[This message has been edited by Tracy (edited 03-15-2001).]

[MrPotatoHead]

Short, sweet, and to the point. You obviously have a gift for getting your point across without all the B.S. that is manditory in the Law Enforcement Administration Community. (Notice I stated "Administration" and not "Leadership?" If you wanted that to be converted into Law Enforcement jargon, it would have to be at least 700 more pages so we could make it into the next police concept that is going to revolutionize policing. (Community Oriented Policing, SARA, ComStat, etc.)

Who's elevator did you fart in?????

[bd]

Tracy,

I forwarded you sent me to NAPD and haven't heard back yet. That's not unusual tho'. I'll give them a call.

Keep up the great work.

BD

[Tracy]

Originally posted by MrPotatoHead:

...Who's elevator did you fart in?????

The FBI's once or twice; and there was another Federal Agency that insisted the SAS 'Snake' Technique is the BEST and ONLY way to clear rooms.

My reply didn't make matters much better: "When I trained with the SAS, they never HEARD of a Snake Technique."

[RECON5]

Tracy-

As they say down here "Time to Cowboy up"..
You bet send the article that you want forwarded, and who you want it sent to, and I will send it. You will have to provide the means.......uhhhh It's not that I am not popular. I just don't/won't deal with them. I like working with the local/county folks that are on the ground in the mix, but I would be honored to forward the materials.

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[RogueExec]

You mean, you actually pissed off Larry Glick? When I spoke to him he seemed to be much the professional. Hmmmmmmm. You weren't by chance politically incorrect, were you???

Oh no. Not you. Never. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

[dsumner]

I'll be more than happy to forward waht ever you want the Virginia Tactical Police Association for their next news letter.

[Swat1]

Sorry I didn't get in on this earlier but I was away at training. Tracy excellent post. By the way...

The FBI's once or twice; and there was another Federal Agency that insisted the SAS 'Snake' Technique is the BEST and ONLY way to clear rooms.

My reply didn't make matters much better: "When I trained with the SAS, they never HEARD of a Snake Technique."

That federal agency wouldn't be the DEA would it? BTDT....I thought it was a little goofy too...but as always, I take the good and discard the bad from every training I attend and never pass up the opportunity to go.

Swat1*

[Tracy]

Originally posted by Swat1:
...That federal agency wouldn't be the DEA would it? ...


Hee-Hee-Hee... KABOOM!

[Tracy]

Recon, SWAT, and the Rest:

Here's the first scrub on the article, give me some feedback. It's 1085 words long.

Title-
Law Enforcement and its Paramilitary Image: One Citizens Opinion.

Main Body-
Many people in the United States are protesting what they see as Police Officers using more military tactics and weapons to do their job. I want take this time exercise my right to an opinion on the subject.

First, I’m a Professional Soldier; 20 years in the US Army Special Forces. Second, during those twenty years I worked with several Federal Law Enforcement agencies and helped train both local and federal departments. From this perspective, I can emphatically state that Police and Military methods are vastly different.

Most citizens express their dismay to the press because they see their local Police Department personnel dress in military clothing and using military weapons. So the logical conclusion is they use military tactics to enforce the law. From a statistical standpoint, this is a false assumption. In all police incidents nationwide, the International Chiefs of Police Association found that police officers discharged their firearms less than one-tenth of one percent of the time. Put another way, 99.9% of all incidents were resolved WITHOUT gunfire from police weapons.

Many would argue that because of the extremely low rate, there’s no justification for using additional weapons or tactics. However, every time police officers fire their weapons, they probably present or imply using those weapons forty or fifty times.

Police Officers are trained from Day One to resolve confrontations with minimal force; even if it means coming back to the same problem every day. Their job is to bring criminals to face judgment before society. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines are trained from Day One to stop threats by any reasonable means necessary; and they make sure they don’t have to come back again. A more succinct way to explain the roles are: Police Officers solve problems, Military eliminates them.

Lately, many people are frightened because Police Departments want to equip their Patrol Officers with M-16s or some other form of ‘assault’ weapon. What most citizens don’t realize is they are responsible for this decision. That’s right, all of us Americans have to take responsibility for this decision.

As a society we want violent criminals stopped with precision and minimum force necessary. Violent criminals stopped giving up when they’re trapped by police; and those same criminals are willing to use any weapon they find to make sure they’re not captured. So Police Departments throughout our country are following society’s mandate to find precise, minimum force weapons to replace the standard-issue shotgun.

There are several problems with the shotgun:

First, it’s imprecise. Each 12 Gauge shell has 9 .30 caliber bullets inside. When they leave the barrel, those bullets will spread about one inch for every yard traveled. At seven yards, those bullets will land somewhere inside a seven-inch circle. An M-16 rifle will put three bullets inside a one-inch circle at 25 yards. When the drunk husband comes home and puts a knife to his wife’s throat and dares the cops to stop him, which precision weapon do you want aimed at him? The shotgun or the rifle?

Second, shotguns are rarely fatal beyond seven yards. They do damage for sure, but the criminal can still fight back. So the police officer has to fire their less-accurate shotgun repeatedly to try and stop the threat. The bullet from an M-16 can stop an assailant with one or two accurate shots. Remember, every time a shotgun fires that’s nine bullets coming out simultaneously. Hardly what I’d call minimum force.

Third, our demands that Police Departments reflect the cultural diversity of our country has a down side: they have to accept applicants that have smaller physical statures. Many officers today don’t use shotguns when warranted because the recoil can physically injure them as well as make it hard for them to control during firing. They also weigh a lot. Smaller police officers means they have fewer options in a physical confrontation; meaning if they can’t talk their way out of the problem, the guns are coming out. An M-16 can give a smaller officer a better edge in violent situations by letting them apply more precise, less voluminous, and more effective lethal force.

Regarding tactics, Police and Military units are worlds apart from each other. Police Officers enforce the law of the land and protect its citizens. Military personnel stop threats to national interests. It is true that many police officers use military tactics or techniques when in a violent, or potentially violent, situation. The question is: how can a Cop hide behind a car, or fire a weapon, in a non-military manner?

I stated earlier that I helped train law enforcement personnel in my capacity as a Soldier. Your Congress mandated that we will make our training resources available to Law Enforcement, because Congress felt that they could use the help. I showed Police Departments the tactics and techniques we used when dealing with terrorists, violent criminals and thugs abroad. Police Departments select those techniques that work best and still allows them to protect the citizens. They never consider any method without first considering its impact on the community. That’s why you don’t see artillery, mortars, or close air support aircraft smashing a crack house into splinters. Instead, a small group of individuals force their way into the building and risk their own lives to bring the criminals to justice; knowing those same criminals will start selling their drugs again tomorrow.

Another point to consider is the psychological advantage these military-style uniforms and weapons present to the criminal. If violent criminals observe a police unit using military equipment and tactics against them, they’re more inclined to give up than resist. If they give up, that means no shots are fired and everyone lives. How can that be a bad thing? I’m willing to let our Police Officers use whatever equipment they need if it means less violent confrontations and people being hurt as a result.

It's unfortunate that those POLICE WEAPONS look like military weapons; but they're not used in a military manner.

It's unfortunate that the POLICE TACTICS look like military tactics; but they're not used in a military manner.

As an experiment, take a patrol officer and remove EVERYTHING that the military invented and used first. You'd have a naked cop standing in front of you. So if the extremists want to remove everything military from a Police Officer's repertoire, all you'd have left is a citizen who cares about the community; but has no way of carrying out their intent.

Tracy-Paul **********
Chief Warrant Officer (retired)
US Army Special Forces

How's that? I decided to ding on the weapon and tactics issue simultaneuosly

[Augie]

Tracy,
Awesome. Right to the point.

[grrlcop74]

Tracy, you literate fool, marry me!!!!

Kristen http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif
<swooning from such masterful use of verbiage>

[WS-G]

Originally posted by Tracy:

That’s why you don’t see... close air support aircraft smashing a crack house into splinters.

Hey, it worked in Philly back in '87!

[jnc36rcpd]

Tracy, I'm not usually a cheerleader, but that's an excellent article worthy of publication in either professional journals or the general media. Be safe.

[bd]

Thumbs up, Tracy... EXCELLENT!

Take care and be safe, my friend.

BD

[RECON5]

The quality we have all come to expect. Now would you like to give preferences or should I just take my liberty with the stamps/email.....

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[E19]

Well written Chief

[Tracy]

Originally posted by RECON5:
The quality we have all come to expect. Now would you like to give preferences or should I just take my liberty with the stamps/email.....


Take your liberties, and let's see what happens.

Anyone have suggestions? Recon5 is buying...

;-)

[Tracy]

Recon5:

Did that satisfy the "Cowboy Up" requirement? You're awful quiet lately...

[RogueExec]

He's busy learning better use of verbiage so he can flank your position and steal Kristen away.

[Tracy]

Originally posted by RogueExec:
He's busy learning better use of verbiage so he can flank your position and steal Kristen away.

The only way to do that is

1. Put a little Armor-All behind each ear.

2. Have a really BIG...
.
.
.
. Hard Drive.

Floppies don't work with her.

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by Tracy:

Floppies don't work with her.



Found that out too late. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

[Swat1]

Thumbs up from here Tracy. Mind if I submit that to the local rag? We got a few complaints last week while doing a SWAT warrant at a house from the public about the way we were dressed and carrying those big bad automatic weapons. The house we hit was right smack dab in downtown immediately next to the courthouse. Talk about publicity.

Swat1*

[Tracy]

Originally posted by Swat1:
Thumbs up from here Tracy. Mind if I submit that to the local rag?
Swat1*

Go for it. That's what it's for...

[RECON5]

Tracy - Sorry man it's hard to type with all that Armor All on my hands. I got side tracked by the lates proposed legislation. Check out my post. Goin to hell in hand basket.

Yep Rogue you called it after last night I need to find someone to compete for .. I came in the house and started tearing things apart, as if I were searching for something. After a few crude remarks from the wife, such as "what in the hell are you looking for". I told her that when I moved in this house I had some p^$$! I just can't find it... Thus the search to win Kristen over.

"Now I got to get to learnin sum of dem fancy words"

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[RogueExec]

I had to quit after 20 or 30 because with all of those $.25 words, I was running short of funds for laundry.

[RECON5]

TRACY- Well sir, as timing would have it I have found an additional source to "Cowboy up with". I rec'd an offer from "POLICE Magazine" and thier pitch is "Let us give you more fire power" with comparison being that knowledge is our fire power. They discuss upcoming issues on police weapons.........So I figured along with our usual repetoir of folks we have all contacted. I would shoot this letter to them. Who knows it may get published. I sent it from my work email, and left your creditials/signature. Let ya know if we get any responses.

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[dragonrain]

Tracy, once again, an excellent job.


Case

[RogueExec]

RECON, I have buds at POLICE mag......let me know if you run into any snags.

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by RECON5:
TRACY- Well sir, as timing would have it I have found an additional source to "Cowboy up with". I rec'd an offer from "POLICE Magazine" and thier pitch is "Let us give you more fire power"



Hey RECON.......anything ever happen with this? Did you submit it???

[RECON5]

Rogue - Yep, sent it, signed it, as third party with contact info...........still waiting...........

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[RogueExec]

Figures. After floating in, like flotsam, on the sea of red tape, it'll probably be published just in time to be of little value. Damn bureaucrats. Sheesh.

[Tracy]

Bureaucracy is just like a Cesspool: Only the really BIG chunks float to the top...