duty weapon and carbine v. smg

[Joe56]

Hey All,
So what do you guys carry duty wise? Are there any pistols that would give you cause for concern? I ask cause I am in the market for a new one.BTW, if you have a chance to pick up a GB, I would advise against it http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/frown.gif

That and another thing. I was having this argument with a buddy who says the only long to carry is a shotgun, preferably a Benelli."Shotgun?" says I. What about a carbine or SMG? Do you guys think they have the intimidation factor needed as well as reliability?

Take care,
Joe.

[mdb23]

Joe,

We currently carry the Glock 22 (.40 cal). Before that, we carried the Smith & Wesson Sigma (.40 cal), of which I am not a big fan.

As far as the shotgun question is concerned, I rarely ever take one on a call. As a matter of fact, I only take the shotgun on LARGE outside disturbances where parties are reportedly armed/shots have been fired, and I know that many other officers will be responding.

My reasoning behind this is that, on numerous occasions, I have known officers that take shotguns on everything from disturbance calls to ADT alarms, and, in my opinion, it presents an officer safety issue in a majority of the cases.

For example, you and your partner go on a disturbance, and he packs the shotgun. You enter the residence, quickly determine that no weapons are present, and gather information. You determine that an offense has occurred, and that 6'02, 250 lb daddy has to go to jail. You attempt to put the gotchas on him, at which point he decides to resist, and the victim decides to interfere, at which point you really need your partner's help. Problem is, unless they are resisting to the point where he can shoot them or use the shotgun as a blunt impact weapon (which I am not a big fan of), then the shotgun is useless. Furthermore, if it is like ours, it has no sling, and he does not have the option of slinging it. So your partner then has the option of laying the shotgun down and helping you out, or attempting to hold it with one hand--or under one arm, while he wrestles with the suspects. Being that he chambered a round in the shotgun upon exiting the vehicle, this scenario has accidental discharge writen all over it.

In short, I can "remedy" a situation with my handgun just as well as I could with a shotgun (and have more range), and the handgun has the added feature of being securable in a holster if the situation requires a "hands on" approach.

Oh, and as far as the intimidation factor goes, people in the inner city know exactly when you can and can't use your weapon. I have heard suspects say, "what, you gonna shoot me with that shotgun? I ain't armed, motherf****r!" I have had my weapon drawn on numerous individuals who proceeded to run off. Upon catching them, I ask why they ran knowing that I had my weapon drawn, and they routinely state that they knew I couldn't shoot, so why not? Don't know about you, but the idea of being in a footchase while carrying a shotgun sucks!

As for carbines, my patrol vehicle has 130xxx miles on it, you think we have carbines? LOL

Take it easy,
mdb23



[This message has been edited by mdb23 (edited 04-11-2001).]

[mdb23]

Damn, I jut reread your Q and it hit me that you are probably talking about carrying a shotgun as a primary weapon in a personal security/asset protection scenario. Sorry for the off base answer.

I would go with the MP5 or M4. A shotgun probably wouldn't allow for the types of precision shooting scenarios that you might encounter (picking a gunman out of a crowd, etc.), and the range is pretty limiting. Just make sure that you pick a load that won't overpenetrate and tag a friendly!

mdb23

[jnc36rcpd]

Apart from delivery of specialized rounds, I am hard-pressed to think of any advantage the shotgun offers over an urban rifle. It has an unusual manual of arms. The spread of pellets becomes a real concern after fifteen to twenty yards. Most people hate the recoil.

I have considered transitioning my agency to slugs as the primary load. I hear a lot of opposition to that with few reasons given. In the end, firearms instructors spend an awful lot of time trying to recreate a .223 rifle out of a blunderbuss.

mdb23 accurately addresses the issue of carrying a shotgun in a law enforcement setting. The long gun is usually a specialized weapon for law enforcement officers. We frequently must transition from the weapon to rolling about in the mud and the blood and the beer. Long guns are most effectively deployed when a patrol shift works together well and everyone knos what toys their shiftmates will bring to the party. Cops need to be confrontational generalists who can rapidly move up and down the continuum of force.

As you no doubt realize, there are many quality pistols on the market. You would not go wrong with a SIGSauer Classic in whatever calibre you select. Granted, Rockville is certainly not is not MPDC's 5D, but our SIG's have proven reliable and accurate over the years.

Be safe.

[RECON5]

Joe,

The agency I am currently employed with issues Sig handguns and no long guns. The P.D. I had been employed with issues Glock and allows for personal weapons of reputable brand and the option for patrol officers to carry personal AR-15 or Ruger Mini 14's in there vehicle.

As JNC36RCMP had stated previously, the shotguns have become as commonly used for the dispersement of various "less lethal" rounds as they have been for conventional use. When I was assigned SWAT we carried the Colt SMG, or the Colt AR-15. The "shorty" AR (223) was growing in popularity for an entry weapon, as well, and no according to ballistic test we conducted, it showed less propencity for over penetration than the 9mm.

Just judging from your post and profile, you would probably be better served with a quality hand gun backed with a "shorty" AR or MP5, but that is just my .02worth.

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REMEMBER 1*

[Sharky]

I carry a piece of shit Beretta Brigadier .40 cal, An M-4 and a bad attitude. We do have Scattergun Technology 12 Gauges that were made specifically for us but i rarely carry one. I prefer my M-4.

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F.I.D.O.

[mdb23]

Sharky???? Bad attitude??? Nope, don't buy it. BTW, in all of our reports and radio transmaissions we are required to refer to illegal aliens as "undocumented citizens." What--official--term are you guys using?

mdb23

[jnc36rcpd]

Recon5, I must admit I'm flattered over your transferring me to the RCMP. I'm sure the red dress tunic and stetson are chick-magnets.
Be safe.

[RECON5]

My bad, sorry. That's what happens when you try to type and answer questions at the same time.....besides all thought all LE wore
hats........or is that just a Texas thing.LOL

P.S. it's time to get rid of the stetson and break out the Bangora Straw...
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REMEMBER 1*

[This message has been edited by RECON5 (edited 04-12-2001).]

[Sharky]

They are undocumented Aliens or illegal aliens. Not citizens.

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F.I.D.O.

[Mantracker]

We were carrying S & W 4506(-1-3). I'm sorry but I have to say this, in the 9 years we carried them we hade nothing but problems! My feelings along with the majority of guys on the department is that this is probably the WORST piece of junk ever inflicted upon a LEO, especially us! Now with a new Sheriff we are allowed to carry either of the following as long as they are in .45cal or 9mm: H & K, Sig, Glock, Beretta, & S & W. We are now trying to get him to switch our shotguns in the cruisers to a carbine(preferably the M4) and put the shotguns to use during Riots, Civil disorders, or problems in the jail. Shotguns are nice to a certain extent but just like it was said before me, what do you do with it when you make an arrest? I think you'll see a growing trend towards the "Carbine" in the future for LE needs and the shotgun placed in the trunk for "Less-than-lethal" uses. Joe, I hope this helps you out a little.

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by RECON5:
thought all LE wore
hats........or is that just a Texas thing.LOL


No hats here. The only ones who wear the hats (campaign covers, at that) are the State Troopers. That's because they're paramilitary.

[dragonrain]

But rouge, they look so nice in thier white walls and shiney black jump suits. I live and work right next to the WA SP office. I My car hasnt gone over 35 in 3 mo. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

[MrPotatoHead]

Originally posted by Sharky:
They are undocumented Aliens or illegal aliens. Not citizens.



Would you come up to 'Burque and let the politicians, DA's, Courts, and PD Admin people know this?

As for the Agency in which I work, we can carry whatever we want for duty as long as it's between 9mm and 44mag caliber. We are issused 870's with 00 buck. Some of us are sent to "Enhanced Shotgun" that enables us to use slugs (Issued shotguns have the standard bead sight system, we have to get the sights installed or swap barrels to make them "Enhanced".) Then some of us are allowed to carry AR15 variants. Almost everyone has a dedicated beanbag shotgun and I just got issued and trained on an M26 AirTazer.

[This message has been edited by MrPotatoHead (edited 04-24-2001).]

[General]

My department currently issues Glock 22's. They also let us carry any qulaity 40 so I have recently swtich to a Brownig HP http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

As far as long guns, it really depends on what you are doing. I'm really big on shotguns and our dept. has issued use ones that are well set up and we train on them at least yearly. The down side is the first time I did a slow and deliberate search in training with one, after about 15 minutes it was way heavy. The next time I used a MP5 and life was much better. The shotgun is a tool that has a great all around function and many are accurate if set up correctly. But, they are not always suited for the job at hand.

[wstsidedet]

The dept i am with issues Beretta 96F's .40's. That is our issued weapon, no if's ands or buts. Half to dept wants to go to Glocks, one quarter for SIG and the last quarter for H&K. Patrol is issued 870 shotguns with the woodstock. We can attach a surefire to it but we have to purchase is out of pocket.
SWAT carries MP-5's and M-4's.

[BG]

We are issued the .9mm Vektor Z-88 (Beretta 92F copy, manufactured under license from Beretta, Italy) and may carry personally-owned handguns etc. Until last year we were permitted to use .40S&W, but our communist-led government seems to think that shooting a suspect with a .40S&W or .45ACP is "inhumane" (while a .223/5.56mm; 12-guage 00-buck are "okay"), so now it's a choice of .9mm or .9mm. I personally carry a SIG Sauer P-226, and like the GLOCK 22 and HK USP-9 as well (I would like to have upgaded to a P-226 .40S&W or GLOCK 22). A few (not many) Officer's now carry the HK USP-9, CZ-75's, and a GLOCK 19/17's can be seen from time-to-time. Full-metal-jackets are still to this day the issued round of the South African Police Service, however hollowpoint ammunition is permitted provided you purchase it yourself (Ranger SXT +P+ Black Talons and Cor-Bons being the favourites) - naturally you may be called upon to in a court of law to justify your choice of ammunition.

We are also issued the select-fire .223/5,56mm R-5 assault rifle (an improved version of the Galil), with the HK MP-5's - and HK USP-9's - only being issued to our counter-terrorism unit (the Special Task Force). Only with the Station Commander approval, can a personally-owned semi-automatic .223/5.56mm rifle be used while on-duty (in my case a SIG SG-552 SP - "Semi-Automatic Police"). Vintage UZI's are available at some stations, and .308 R-1 assault rifles are used on occasion.

Shotguns are vintage pump-action Berettas (as are the very rare and aged hunting semi-autos, cut down for entries) and some other crap (you don't get your thumb back when loading the magazine-tube - not without a fight!). Our shotguns are primarily used when in a township environment, as the culture in those areas have more fear of the shotgun that they do of a fully-automatic rifle. Once again personally owned shotguns may be used with permission, however I have yet to see anyone bring their own (I did for a period of time when it was legal to use another licensed firearm with the owner's consent - in which case it was my old man's kitted-out Winchester Defender with all the bells-and-whistles - these laws have since been changed due to gang-members using their wive's firearms during the commission of a crime down in Cape Town).

The new Benelli M-4 (entry model as issued to the JSOC - but with fixed stock w. pistol-grip) would now be my choice of shotgun. My SIG SG 552, and an HK 53 and Colt M-4 would be my favourite rifles (out of the .223/5.56mm) - the HK G36K's are okay, but as Fred Yates (HK ITD) pointed out to me, once the sight system has been changed. And the SIG's; HK's; GLOCK's and a really decent custom 1911 .45ACP would do well in the American Law-Enforcement environment, as they already are.