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poison
3 April 2008, 14:30
So I got to go to driving school at the west coast branch of http://www.vehicledynamics.net/ last weekend. It's run by Tony Scotti, who put together the Secret Service driving curriculum, as well as training drivers for other gov't agencies, both here and abroad, and around 800 corporations worldwide.

I did the Protective/Evasive Driving course, which was three days. The first day was bookwork, and they covered a lot, from car choice, to maintenance, to the physics of driving.

Day 2 we started at 8:45 AM and drove til 6:30PM. There were two instructors, two students, and two Police Interceptor Crown Vics. We started with the slalom, and spent a half day on that, then went to the emergency lane change manoeuvre for the last half of the day. Suffice it to say that we started at 24MPH through the 60ft slalom, and had issues, but by the afternoon were smoking it at 36MPH consistently. By that time we could tell if we came in at 35 or 37 instead of 36.

The lane change manoeuvre built on the handling skills we learned in the slalom part. The barrier was, IIRC, 30ft wide, and we had 50 feet to go around it left or right, with another 50 feet after to hit the exit gate. We started at 26MPH, and by the end of the day were passing 37mph, with the added challenge of having a flag dropped on left or right just as we hit the 50' mark to tell us which side to swerve to. We ended up going back to the slalom for a few runs, to demonstrate our new found aggression and its effects on the slalom. We easily hit the 36-37mph speeds.

Day 3 started at 8AM. We started out with the reverse slalom. This is specific to security driving; if you come upon a hot zone or area, reversing out at high speed is many times the safest, and only option. The reverse slalom starts in a cone 'parking space', you reverse out directly into the slalom, turn 90 degrees into a parking box, go hard forward into another box, then reverse out 90 degrees back through the slalom, and into the start box. We did this looking back over our shoulder, and with mirrors only, as some vehicles may not allow a rearward view.

Then we did high speed straight backing, looking over our shoulder, mirrors only, AND using a forward point of reference only. The end gate was 10 feet wide. We had to cover 300 yards as quickly as possible. We started around 12 seconds, and I got down to 7 using all methods.

We also covered the 'Y' turn, which has replaced the 'J' turn for security purposes. It's basically a 3 point turn into a box: reverse, whip into the box while braking, then accelerate out hard in the opposite direction. Easy and fun.

The last exercise we did was and ABS manoeuvre, where they set up a short 90 degree corner with a tight radius. We had to hit the first cones, at the start of the turn, at 45MPH, stand on the brakes, and stop before the last cone, while staying in the 10 foot lane. I was shocked when the instructor pulled it off with us in the car; 45 MPH into a tight corner like that, in that boat, yet it tracked right around and stopped without touching a cone. After some practice, we managed 46mph stops. They wanted violent stoppage; my co-student pulled 1.01g. I only managed .89g, whether from brake fade or a light foot, I'm not sure.

They wrapped it up with a test incorporating all the exercises into a road course. They wanted 1:04-1:06 seconds To complete it, with a second off for each cone down. The instructor hit 1:01. On my third run I hit 1:01 with 3 cones down.

All in all, it was freakin great!!! Instruction was first class: nice guys, laid back, but extremely professional. They stressed the physics of driving heavily, and gave an explanation for everything they were doing.

We had tons of seat time. The first day we racked up 70+ runs EACH; the second, we had 50+. Instructor to student ration is awesome! I improved my driving skill by at least 80%, and I'm confident I could quickly apply it to any car I step into. The whole thing was a blast!

Oh, after we wrapped all the gear up, they let me take my Subary Impreza TS out on the slalom. They said 'oh, Subarus handle great, it'll be a .87g car, so you'll be right there with the Crown Vic'. Lol, sure, if only you knew I have Tokicos with STi Prodrives, 22f/24r sways with endlinks, camber plates, Falken 451's, etc. Lods of suspension mods.

He told me to try 26 on the slalom. I went in at 30 and came out at 37. I did a couple at 37, then blew it hard at 39 or so, then let him try it. He blew the first run, As he had no idea what my car was, but he was smiling from ear to ear, and racked a 37+ run before we went home.

I'm not sure why more security guys don't do the driving, at least in the private sector. Shooting is great, and necessary, but it's far more likely you'll get in an accident, or need good driving skills, than shooting. It was well worth the time and expenditure. I hope to continue my driving education with more classes soon.

ratamojada
3 April 2008, 14:47
The bigger US Gov PSD contracts require driving courses and have them built into the curriculum. It is as important as any facet of the job.

Lots of fun as well!!

Rata

HumanLawnSprinkler
3 April 2008, 14:48
Oooh sounds like a boatload of fun. I'd like to try your Baru, LOL. Used to race ITC with a 1972 Mazda RX2, axles on the stops, with a 13B rotary. Slick as snot through the twistings, but any bumbs cracked vertabrae, LOL.

What did you think of high speed reverse? Sort of like driving a boat?

poison
3 April 2008, 14:52
Rata, I'm sure the gov't is much better. Private sector blows.

Human, nice! Mazdas rotaries rip! I'd own a Mazda in a heartbeat. Yes, even a miata. :D

High speed reverse wasn't as bad as I expected, though it's way sensitive to input. Very much like a boat, or one of those ass backwards shopping carts with the sterring wheels on the back.

HumanLawnSprinkler
3 April 2008, 14:58
LOL! Yeah, or a rear wheel steer forklift with too much weight on the blades, LOL. I've never taken one of these courses, but HAVE reversed out of a briar patch or two as quick as possible after getting bumped out of a turn, LOL. My wife has an 06 Charger, I just might find an empty stretch of road and go.... reminisce a little later today... LOL

SOTB
3 April 2008, 15:07
We also covered the 'Y' turn, which has replaced the 'J' turn for security purposes....Not true in the slightest....

ratamojada
3 April 2008, 15:12
Not true in the slightest....

Exactly.

Y turn is an alternative to the J turn due to variations in terrain, speed, vehicle type and situation. Both are valid maneuvers.

Rata

poison
3 April 2008, 15:15
Not true in the slightest....

Ah, sorry. I'm sure it hasn't replaced it in general; Tony Scotti has replaced teaching the J turn with the Y turn in his courses, however. The explaination is that due to uparmored vehicles top-heaviness, clients propensity toward already top-heavy SUV use, and crappy roads in other parts of the world make the J turn more likely to cause a rollover than a Y turn.

poison
3 April 2008, 15:58
LOL! Yeah, or a rear wheel steer forklift with too much weight on the blades, LOL. I've never taken one of these courses, but HAVE reversed out of a briar patch or two as quick as possible after getting bumped out of a turn, LOL. My wife has an 06 Charger, I just might find an empty stretch of road and go.... reminisce a little later today... LOL

Bring it! Safely, of course. ;)

Sharky
3 April 2008, 18:45
Not true in the slightest....




Crucible stopped teaching it as well in favor of the Y. They said top-heaviness was a factor but they also said that J turns usually get screwed up under stress by guys going too fast and over-rotating. They teach that the J should be executed at 15mph. They said that a good Y is consistently faster than a screwed up J that you have to fix. I'm no pro driver so I dont claim to know. That's just what I was told.

SGTROCK
3 April 2008, 19:15
We, ArmorGroup ITI, stopped teaching the J in favor of the Y for the same reasons stated.

Rock

poison
3 April 2008, 19:22
Ha, I over-rotated successfully in the Y turn. :D lol

SOTB
4 April 2008, 04:07
Crucible stopped teaching it as well in favor of the Y. They said top-heaviness was a factor but they also said that J turns usually get screwed up under stress by guys going too fast and over-rotating. They teach that the J should be executed at 15mph. They said that a good Y is consistently faster than a screwed up J that you have to fix....The J turn is nothing more than a skid-control exercise. With a vehicle that picks up speed quickly enough, one should be able to execute the maneuver within 2 seconds of reversing out. If executed properly, roll-over should not be the slightest concern -- I've J-turned dump trucks, buses, armored SUVs, every make and model of normal car/SUV/pickup/large Suburban-type/etc.

What is true, and what ITI was preaching way back in the 80's, is that people will fuck it up under stress and when not proficient at it. Furthermore, the argument/discussion should be asked as to how relevant the maneuver is for the average security driver. I believe it is actually a far more useful maneuver for the pursuit driver than for someone attempting to escape -- but then that is another thread.

I know of two persons that have actually used a J turn to escape a real-life problem. Both executed correctly, although one admittedly did it "just because" (obviously he had some confidence that the badguys weren't going to impact his driving).

To abuse ITI's thinking a little (ironic, since they were showing the pitfalls of poorly-executed J turns before most others were -- including SSDD), practice Y's and J's on narrow streets with parked cars and other obstacles. Try throwing in curves or ramming through a blockade in reverse. Which maneuver is easier and gets the vehicle pointed in the direction you want it to more often?

Bottom line, the J turn's biggest problem is that it is mistaught by people that really didn't learn it right themselves. The Y is a great tool as well -- more obvious when conducted with multiple vehicles in formation -- but the Y as a "replacement" for the J is nothing more than an instructor demonstrating his lack of knowledge of the topic to begin with....

Silverbullet
4 April 2008, 12:21
I have recently attended VDI as well. I think they are GTG. My previous experience with driving courses is 2x to BSR, a DOD crse, DOS driving package.

I thought VDI really got to the heart of driving and skill at all speeds vice just very high speeds. Lately I see too many crse's/school houses talking about the "line", etc...which while nice to know has very little application in the real world. If I got to rehearse every route and knew that every other person on the road was going to drive the "line" then I'd feel better about it. The reality is that while most routes can driven beforehand, we have no way of getting others on the rd to drive the line so we can to.

VDI open enrollment courses are for Security Drivers. The average student is a US based security driver. While security driving isn't something I do, I do use drivers, worldwide, and felt it wouldn't hurt to get hands on experience with what they do and the skills. VDI teaches how to drive,use the brakes and steering, etc to get the most out of the car that the driver is capable of.

I recommend them to anyone who is interested in getting better at driving. No ego's, no race car driver mentality, just good instruction and the building block approach to learning/improving skills.

SOTB
4 April 2008, 13:08
Lately I see too many crse's/school houses talking about the "line", etc...which while nice to know has very little application in the real world. If I got to rehearse every route and knew that every other person on the road was going to drive the "line" then I'd feel better about it. The reality is that while most routes can driven beforehand, we have no way of getting others on the rd to drive the line so we can to....The part I have emboldened falls upon deaf ears at locations where "technical driving", "line driving", etc. are the mainstay of their teaching platform. As SB stated, one cannot "know" the line of the road he will find himself driving upon in the real world, simply due to traffic, environmental changes, etc. A very large reason why this falls upon deaf ears is simply due to the cost of the track upon which the training is occurring -- the track is one of the selling points to the course. Even IF the instructors wanted to keep the speeds low, clients that are at a racetrack WANT to drive fast (BTDT). And clients that are evaluating two different training programs often see driving fast on a racetrack as a supposed demonstration of higher learning (BTDT too).

When taught for the reason that it truly serves, "line driving" is fine. It enables the student to practice skid control, braking, braking in turns, weight transfer, hand and eye positioning, etc. -- many times per exercise iteration, and at speeds that allow far longer student input times than exercises done at low speeds (this MAY translate into a shorter learning curve).

Where it is lost upon many, is that the idea of driving fast is somehow important to a professional security driver's toolbox. Since badguys DON'T CHASE, the real reason that people are driving fast is because they believe that attackers will not be able to time their attack to the speeds the vehicles are traveling (I'm not a fan of this theory), or they didn't plan their movement well (or the principal is late and pushing), or maybe they are evac'ing a medical problem (or something similar). None of those three examples are really good reasons, even the last -- because if you crash your evac vehicle, now your timeliness will REALLY suck ass.

No, I disagree that driving fast is important -- besides speed is relative. I can show anyone driving conditions where 25mph is simply too fast and will result in a crash, and others where 120mph is boring and slower than the rest of the traffic. People should drive to the conditions and requirement of the mission, and I think the average security dude doesn't need to blow down the highway (or through a residential neighborhood) at mach 2 to get his job done. Certainly in someplace like the US, driving "fast" will not only get you attention from the police, but clients aren't usually fond of being jostled around in their daily movements -- nor do they like to even hear the squeal of tires.

As stated earlier, pursuit driving may bring a whole new requirement to the table, including how to drive quickly and not crash the vehicle or cause innocents danger. "Line driving" can help with that, but even then, it needs to be done realistically -- and there are a few places that waffle on their dedication as to how realistic their training is....

poison
4 April 2008, 15:39
Nice posts.

RAT
4 April 2008, 18:48
Also, wear your seat belts...

Just my .02

RO!!!

Believeraz
4 April 2008, 19:21
One of the great things I've gained through the driving courses I've done is the applicability of skills learned to enhance my ability to drive safely. Forget about assassins, terrorists, and ninjas for a second. Based on what I've learned about hand and foot position, occular driving, weight transfer, braking, vehicle performance, etc., I'm a more prepared driver. I can't tell you how many times I've avoided an accident that I might not have without the skills I developed in training.

Driving down a busy 8 lane road at rush hour, when the other drivers are balancing their lattes and Blackberries while knee-steering becomes safer when you have the skills to dodge them. Forget about driving a principal through metro DC, Sarajevo, or Baghdad. This stuff counts when my wife and kids are in the vehicle.

CA SGT
6 April 2008, 15:26
FWIW, San Bernardino County Sheriff's Office runs an outstanding program. Their facility is first rate, with city grid street setup, obstacles, high speed areas, wet skid pad, and so on. The instructor course runs about 100 hrs total. They offer full spectrum driving instruction, IE LE courses, "security" driving courses, etc..

poison
4 August 2008, 17:04
FWIW, my buddy Lee, who was running the West Coast Chapter of Tony Scotti's school, has now split. He is not associated with Tony Scotti, but will still be running the school under another name. The website has not changed as of yet, but if someone has an issue, I can put you in touch with Lee.

J@mes
5 August 2008, 20:50
poison,

Do you have a link for that website (the west coast school)?

poison
5 August 2008, 23:18
http://www.vehicledynamicsinstitute.com/default.asp?p=214

Enjoy! Lee and Hal are good guys.

Max Power
6 August 2008, 10:05
I'm surprised seapig173 hasn't chimed in on this thread...

poison
6 August 2008, 11:46
Driving instructor?

Jimbo
6 August 2008, 15:40
Also, wear your seat belts...

Just my .02

RO!!!

And don't get in a port-a-potty when RAT is in a car on the track.

RAT
6 August 2008, 16:01
And don't get in a port-a-potty when RAT is in a car on the track.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAH Hey now.... I just gave it a little bump....

Let me know when you need some real training and we can get it for you instead of at the last place we were LOL.

RO!!!

J@mes
23 August 2008, 01:29
I attended VDI in New Jersey and would recommend the course as well.

The VDI course isn't a CT or convoy driving course. You don't get to ram other vehicles, but, you also don't get pepper sprayed or tasered.
It's a very well run course that caters primarily to EP drivers and focuses on the technical aspects of evasive driving.
The New Jersey school still teaches the J-turn (and Y-turn) which I think is good; even if you don't plan on using the technique evasively you at least have practice regaining control of reverse oversteer.

SteveMN175
27 October 2008, 06:49
I went to BSR in December '05. I'd reccomend it to anyone, especially the Security Driver Instructor Course.