Use of Deadly Force by Civillians

[Fightingscot too]

I was wondering how I could find out the laws governing the use of deadly force in protecting your family. What are the laws for the state of VA? What about conclealed carry laws?

I hear lots of people saying you should get a gun to protect you home / family, etc., but where do you go for information on what you are legally allowed to do to protect yourself from an intruder / stalker?

The time to ask these questions and consider these issues is BEFORE, not AFTER someone is dead in your living room after breaking into your house in the middle of the night.

Also, I am weary of any opininons I get from around the water cooler at work or at gun shows. Who can tell me where to look or who to ask about these laws in VA?

[fish78]

I believe www.jpfo.org (http://www.jpfo.org) has a link to state laws. If not the NRA site should.

[DFC5343]

Gun shows...opinions...thats funny

[grrlcop74]

The Virginia State Police website has concealed carry information. I would suggest checking with your local DA as far as state code regarding use of deadly force in self-defense. A good rule of thumb, however, is that you may only use as much force as would be applied to you. In other words, if somebody breaks into your house to steal a TV, unarmed, and does not threaten you in any way and you shoot him in the back as he tries to flee, you just overstepped your bounds. If, however, he pulls a gun on you and you shoot him, you are within your rights. Some (not all) jurisdictions have what is known as an "attempt to flee" clause. If you are able to get away from an intruder using an alternate method other than deadly force, you must try that option first. Needless to say, prosecution of self-defense cases tend to be politically motivated, and just because a DA refuses to prosecute doesn't mean the dead asshole's family won't sue your pants off and win. It's also better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. The key phrase is always "IMMINENT danger".

Kristen

[-Sparky-]

I don't know about VA, but in most states, you can use deadly force to protect yourself or someone else if you feel that you or they are in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death.

Check with your local DA or AG's office who may point you to the right statute.

You should also consult a private attorney who can also adise you about liability protection such as additional or different home insurance coverage, etc.

Good luck to you, and good instincts about not listening to the gun show yahoos, some of them know what they are talking about, but most of them have their head up thier ass.

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-Sparky
formerly known as SwatPup

[This message has been edited by -Sparky- (edited 08-19-2001).]

[Curtis Newkirk]

Grrlcop, What if it's a really nice TV? Could you just shoot him/her in the leg?

P.S. We had a Former Security Forces Member run short of money a week after his less than honorable discharge from Kelly Air Force Base. He walked into a pawn shop with a loaded handgun. His story was, he was selling it (not the brightest kid in my Air Force). Well, the Shop's owner was behind the counter. He saw the gun, and attempted to draw (remember, this is Texas). The kid shot him in the head. I guess the young man lost his nerve after the first killing and attempted to flee. The owner's wife had been on the phone across the room. She got one shot off. The round entered the left buttock, and exited in the area previously discribed as his crotch. Much to the young man's discomfort, he lived. He is now a resident of the great state of Texas. I'm sure he's become very popular. I left Texas shortly after the shooting, so I don't know if the owner's wife was sued by the family. I think Texas is a little more level headed when it comes to prisoner's rights.

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Nuck
"Defensor Brewus"
Defender of the beer

[Grand58742]

LMFAO, that was funny.

Nuck, we have got to get together for some beers and "the dumbest shit we have ever seen" conversation sometime.

PS. Do you know a Holloway from Osan?

[dsumner]

Since I live in VA, and would prefer not to see you in one of the states fine correctional facilities your best bet would be to check with the VA State Police, the local PD or sheriff's department.

Don't listen to the local idiot down at the job, or some one off the street. If you do something wrong, all of their "facts" will not help you out in court.

[Fightingscot too]

Thanks for the insight everyone. I will call the state police for the info. GRL COP- I heard about getting sued by the family of the person you defended yourself against. What kind of society do we live in where you can be sued for stopping some asshole from killing you?

[-Sparky-]

The rule on lawsuits is this: "There never was a piece of paper that refused to take ink."

You can sue anyone at anytime for anything...how far it goes is another story, but to simply prepare the paperwork and file it with the court clerk is no hard task.

I've been sued MANY times...several did not make it past the first hearing.

Some dragged out for awhile before they dropped it.

Others, I was seperated from it.

And still others the city settled because it was cheaper.

Being sued doesn't mean anything.

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-Sparky
formerly known as SwatPup

[RogueExec]

Whatever you do, make sure the body is inside when po-po shows up...

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I'm an analog asshole in a world of digital sphincters.

[Sharky]

Weighing in on the subject, it varies from state to state. In Arkansas, where I was a cop, if the intruder was in your home he was fair game. The courts there ruled that you were not obligated to retreat from your own home.

The general rule that you have to live by is that deadly force is not authorized unless you are in fear of great bodily harm or death or; an innocent third party is in fear of the same.

If you break into MY house while I happen to be there, give your soul to God because you will be seeing him shortly. Let the lawsuits fall where they may.

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F.I.D.O.

[REMF]

Just stuff the guy in the microwave and tell the authorities he spontaneously combusted. You just shot him to help him end it quickly.

REMF

[soup82]

"Just stuff the guy in the microwave and tell the authorities he spontaneously combusted. You just shot him to help him end it quickly."

Is this legal?

[Ace]

Originally posted by soup82:
Is this legal?


If you indeed stuff a grown man into a
micro-wave, I have no doubts that you will get away with shooting him.



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If one's words are no better than silence, one should keep silent.

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by Sharky:
If you break into MY house while I happen to be there, give your soul to God because you will be seeing him shortly. Let the lawsuits fall where they may.



AMEN.

(That's gotta be marketable on a bumper sticker or something, eh Sharkman??)



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I'm an analog asshole in a world of digital sphincters.

[WS-G]

Next time you have the better part of a day off, spend the majority of it at your public library (alternatively: any nearby university library that's open to the general public). Look in the card catalogue for your state's criminal law statutes under "Penal Code" or any similar language.

Once you've found the appropriate texts — which will most likely be located either in the "law" section or under "references" — check the indices for such terms as "Use of Force", "Use of Deadly Force", etc. Read them carefully. Make hard copies of the pertinent sections to take home with you, and read them again.

Once you've done this, then contact your local PD, SO or DA's Office and ask for further info WRT case law (i.e.: judicial rulings, legal opinions, precedents) pertaining to those same statutes. Remember that what courts have done with any given statute is at least as important as the statute itself.

As others have pointed out already, make certain that you find out whether your state's penal code imposes a "duty to flee". Some states do, others don't.

[-Sparky-]

Yes, it's always good to play "jailhouse lawyer" and go research a bunch of law which you may not have the proper experience to interpret. http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif

I'll reiterate - your local felony prosecutor may be able to give you some direction, and/or, go speak to a private attorney.

Unless you already have some experience researching and interpreting pertinent and applicable case law, then I wouldn't suggest this as a good topic to "learn on your own".

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-Sparky
formerly known as SwatPup

[wolfhound227]

Homicide by Any Person: 197 PC (California)

When Justified:

-Resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person.

-In defense of habitation, property or person against a person who manifestly intends or endeavors in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for purpose of offering violence to any person therein.

-Apprehending a felon

-Lawfully Suppressing a riot.
- Protecting a person or a family when death or great bodily injury is imminent.

When NOT Justified:

-Acting only on bare fear.

So maybe Sharky should have written our PC, it would have saved paper.

Do your homework, it way make the difference batween buying a gun or a set of golf clubs.

[This message has been edited by wolfhound227 (edited 08-20-2001).]

[surfrescue]

If I may pose a question that is somewhat related...to what extent is a person permitted to use less than lethal force when dealing with an intruder or assailant? Basically if I have to defend myself when should I stop beating the piss out of the attacker?

[-Sparky-]

When they are no longer a threat.

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-Sparky
formerly known as SwatPup

[Sharky]

When the cops pull up out front. Kick the bastard a few times for me while you're at it. http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/wink.gif

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F.I.D.O.

[Curtis Newkirk]

Grand,
If that's the Holloway that made TSgt during the 2000 test cycle, yeah, I know him, but he's been gone for about 6 months or more. Good guy.
I don't live in the cop world right now. I've been setting in the IG (Combat Readiness Assesment Division) office for 13 months now. My next Guardmount will be at my next assignment (God knows where). I still wear the Beret, but I just do it because it upsets the Army boys over at the Patriot Batt.


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Nuck
"Defensor Brewus"
Defender of the beer

[REMF]

OK, maybe I need to clarify. You shoot the guy first, then stuff him into the microwave.

[-Sparky-]

DO NOT....I repeat...DO NOT shoot him before you put him in the microwave!

DO NOT put metal objects in the microwave! You don't want to break your microwave, do you?

----> Sparky walks away kicking at the dirt mumbling under his breath: Sheesh! Freakin' amateurs![mumble mumble]....always cleaning up their damn meeses...[grumble mumble]...splattering crap everywhere...[mumble grumble]....taking no pride in their damn work....[mumble grumble]..and I gotta come in to work the damn crime scene...damn inconsiderate!

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-Sparky
formerly known as SwatPup

[dragonrain]

Do you have any idea how bad it smells when you cook someone in a Micro? Your going to have to toss it after, your not getting that smell out. If you use your oven you can just spray it down and set it to clean, no one will ever know.

Case
DR

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"Close only counts in horse shoes and drunk sex"

[Grand58742]

Yep, same Holloway, still as.......silly as he probably was in the O. He's on the shift that relieves me on swings and spent some time with him in the field this last spring. All that man ever talks about is Korea, Soju, juicy girls and other Korean oriented topics, none of which are politically correct or should be talked about around small children.

Anyhow, there is a chance of me getting an assignment over there. Possibly going to the AIA intel unit in Osan (not sure of the designation) for a controlled tour. Also might make it to Foul Chicken this fall as well as part of a regular unit. Not sure of the taskings yet, but if the rumors are true.......gotta get my flea collars and baby wipes if we are going.

[andrew51]

hi, just wondering about this. what if, in the middle of the night some lady hears her door get bashed in. she gets her little .38 special, goes down stairs and sees some guy in all black with a balaclava on. she frieks out and wastes the guy. would she get put into jail?

[Sharky]

Was she in fear for her life? I think she would be. If she was, she would be totally justified in shooting him in most states. There is a key phrase though that will determine the outcome of any situation. It's called "The totality of circumstances". That means that everything has to be considered. Not just the most glaring facts of any case.

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F.I.D.O.

[WS-G]

Originally posted by -Sparky-:
Yes, it's always good to play "jailhouse lawyer" and go research a bunch of law which you may not have the proper experience to interpret. http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif

Yeah, now that you mention it....

"Accept no imitations! Next time some jailhouse lawyer gives you some advice, DEMAND to see proof that he's actually spent a few years in the penitentiary!"

I'll reiterate - your local felony prosecutor may be able to give you some direction, and/or, go speak to a private attorney.

Isn't that what I just said? Seriously though folks, -Sparky- has a point. Make damn sure you CYA legally!


[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 08-21-2001).]

[Curtis Newkirk]

Grand,
I think I know where you're looking to work over here. a friend of mine named Jim is running the office right now. Great guy. He was looking to hire me about a year ago (I was his third choice//No SCI//). I got picked up by the base IG team before anything could be spun up.
Holloway should have some warm, fuzzy memories of me. I ran the QC shop over at the squadron for a little more than a year. He's one of the good guys. Likes to train people. Where are you stationed now? I didn't think stateside bases did much field time anymore. :-)

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Nuck
"Defensor Brewus"
Defender of the beer

[Grand58742]

Holloway seems to recall you, not to sure though, quote was "If it's who I think it is, tell him I got all sensitive and touched myself when I thought of him." I hope you understand I don't have the first damn clue what he was talking about and I probably don't want to know....lol.....Yeah, he's a good guy.

Stationed at Pete Field. As for the field exercises, pre-ORI prep. You know the deal. No training for 2 years and suddenly everyone decides to ping and send us out for the "Pre ORI prep training." AFSPC has stopped evaluating the ABD tasks on the ORI, but we trained anyway. If you want to do things right and correct the first time, every time, don't get a follow on to Space Command. Also, if you ever want to do a field ex here in the states, don't ask the 50th SFS (Schriever AFB) to help plan it.

As for the assignment, not sure yet. No SCI here either, but the guy I'm hooking up with apparently has a bit of pull down at Kelly. Former flight chief at one of my last bases. It's either England, Korea, or Buckley AFB. Not even sure of it will fall through, but it will keep me out of Minot.

Cheers and may see ya in Oct

[This message has been edited by Grand58742 (edited 08-22-2001).]

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by William M Salter:
Isn't that what I just said? Seriously though folks, -Sparky- has a point. Make damn sure you CYA legally!


[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 08-21-2001).]

A word of caution, however. Just because an attorney, experienced or otherwise, tells you something, doesn't mean it's written in stone. Do the requisite study on your own too, as has been mentioned. Attorneys are a great RESOURCE, but the Juris Degree doesn't mean they're automatically all-knowing.



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I'm an analog asshole in a world of digital sphincters.

[-Sparky-]

True. I know all too well, line twelve attorneys up and ask them a question...you'll get twelve difeerent answers and twelve different fee amounts! http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

Yeah, it is good to educate yourself on the law. But make sure that you understand what you are reading!

I can't tell you how many dumbasses come in my join talking about how this law says this, and that law says that....man, A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Basic thing is common sense...if you are in fear for your life (or other impendind doom) then you do what you feel like you need to.

It's better not to get dead because you were "pondering".

Let the lawyers fight it out later.

Prosecution will vary. I know in my area we have had quite a few folks shoot people that were running away. We didn't really want to proosecute, and the Grand Jury seemed to not return a True Bill.

This can be turned around though.....The rule on Grand Juries is "You can indict a ham sandwich."

anyway...time for prayers...(Sparky bows his head)

"Oh lord, bless this thy weapon of projectiles and maketh it true...."

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-Sparky
formerly known as SwatPup

[TMU]

About 8 or 10 years ago, a friend of my family was getting out of her shower after getting her kids off to school and her husband off to work. She heard a sound coming from another room, so she got a pistol and went to see what it was. She surprised two illegal aliens who had staked out her house and, thinking nobody was home, broke in and were burglarizing the place. She yelled at them to get out. Well, they both decided to bull-rush her. Neither one of them made it any more than a couple of steps before she blew both of them away with a .357! One of them dropped dead in his tracks, but the other one managed to get up and try to get out through a window. She wasted his ass before he even got close to the window! They had a buddy waiting in a getaway car outside the house; like dumbass, he came to the window to see what was going on, and she shot his sorry ass as he was trying to run back to his car! She didn't kill him, but the police picked him up at the local emergency room less than an hour later.

The grand jury no-billed the case!

[Curtis Newkirk]

She needs to work on distance shooting. Altogether nice overall scores for naked shooting.

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Nuck
"Defensor Brewus"
Defender of the beer

[Ace]

Originally posted by andrew51:
what if, in the middle of the night some lady hears her door get bashed in. she gets her little .38 special, goes down stairs and sees some guy in all black with a balaclava on. she frieks out and wastes the guy. would she get put into jail?

Depends.

Did she hear them say "Sheriff's Department!! We have a Warrant!!"

Insure that what/who you're shooting is a bad guy.

[-Sparky-]

TMU: Tell her Sparky said, "Good job! Way to be!"

We had a serial rapist in our area that was shot by one of his victims.

That lady is my hero...naked...just been raped...he gets up and is distracted...she grabs her pistol and gets busy.

He runs...she chases him down the street to his car...STILL NAKED!!

I won't call her a bad shot, she hit him and his car.

Case was much stronger after bullett removed matched to her pistol and car ID's by bullet holes.

She's my freaking hero! What BALLS!!

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-Sparky
formerly known as SwatPup

[Sharky]

Okay, let's twist the plot a little more.. Let's say an unnamed SWAT team goes on a no-knock and when they go through the door screaming "POLICE" they are met by an old man who kills one of the SWAT guys with a pistol he keeps in his pocket. The old man is wounded but survives and nothing illegal is found in the house. The twist is that the SWAT team hit the wrong house. They were actually supposed to hit the house next door. Should the old man be charged? I know what I think, but what do you think?

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F.I.D.O.

[USMCSNIPERONE]

I would say absolutely "Not Guilty" Yes,it
was a big mistake on someones part,but not the old mans. He was in fear for his life and
just defending himself.You said he was old so
he might not have heard the entry team hollering "Police" anyway.
What would it matter if they did find something illegal in his residence?,it would still be a illegal search and seizure right?

They did not have a warrant for his place so
anything found there would not be admissable
in court.

Beside all that, he would probably sue the
pants off the dept that did it.

I'm not LE,But thats my $.02

Semper Fi Sniperone

[-Sparky-]

Shouldn't be charged.

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-Sparky
formerly known as SwatPup

[Fightingscot too]

It would be hard to charge a dead man. How many cops, when doing a forced entry who lose the #1 guy through the door, would not out right kill the perp who blasted their team mate?

[Ace]

Originally posted by Sharky:
Okay, let's twist the plot a little more.. Let's say an unnamed SWAT team goes on a no-knock and when they go through the door screaming "POLICE" they are met by an old man who kills one of the SWAT guys with a pistol he keeps in his pocket. The old man is wounded but survives and nothing illegal is found in the house. The twist is that the SWAT team hit the wrong house. They were actually supposed to hit the house next door. Should the old man be charged? I know what I think, but what do you think?


Well, I can tell you exactly what happens here, it happened last summer. Old guy was in a wheelchair (with a shotgun), died at the scene.

No charges, 3 officers fired.
Wife sues everyone, and wins.

Things that went wrong:
1) The intel guy (who knew which house to hit) was not present.
2) Warrant had incorrect address, but correct description of house. (meaning, the house that was hit, matched address but not description).
3) Boths sides had different stories about what was said by the entry team during initial entry (door ram)

[Sharky]

Ace,

My twist was indeed a combination of the stories that we exchanged in your garage....LOL......Good catch.

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F.I.D.O.

[Ace]

Sharky,

LMAO, you got me that one Bro. I completly forgot that we talked about that.

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If one's words are no better than silence, one should keep silent.

[wolf 129]

Originally posted by Fightingscot too:
It would be hard to charge a dead man. How many cops, when doing a forced entry who lose the #1 guy through the door, would not out right kill the perp who blasted their team mate?

Hopefully all of them. That is why they are cops, not soldiers.

-Wolf

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"One of the inescapable encumbrances
of leading an interesting life is that
there have to be moments when you
almost lose it." -Jimmy Buffett

[Jeff Rambo]

Good to have you back.

[wolf 129]

It is good to be back Jeff!

-Wolf

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"One of the inescapable encumbrances
of leading an interesting life is that
there have to be moments when you
almost lose it." -Jimmy Buffett