Armed police on planes...?

[HmtPD2]

Some officers at work and I were kickin' around some ideas, you know how it is. We came up with this. An amendment to the National Right to Carry Bill.
We are all aware of the attempt to allow police officers to carry their off duty weapons throughout the country. How about on airplanes during domestic flights. An officer would have to be certified through an agency, probably the FAA in a course designed around laws, firearms aboard aircraft, an EXPERT shot as determined by a qualification course. (You wouldnt want some guy who barely qualed blowin' holes in the plane)
The officer would be required to check in with a represenative at the airport so his certs could be verified, and his weapons checked, and at that time he could recieve a short briefing of anything going on or expected. He could also be made aware of any additional LE on board. At that point, from the time he boards, to the time his flight ends, he is on duty....no drinking, and at that call of the aircrew if needed.
It would be an effective, extremely low cost solution. Local Academies could recieve training, thus provide the course to other agencies, which would require update training and updates on a periodic basis.
It may require the officer to arrive at the airport earlier, but other that, I see no problems incured on the officer. And, if the officer for some reason decides not to, he just boards without a weapon and rides like anyone else.
Obviously International flights would not apply.
Just imagine one armed cop one either of those plans!
The Marshals do not have enough deputies to go around, nor would there ever be more than one on a plane. How many cops do you think there could be on any one flight in the U.S.!
I know there are many things to be hashed out that can't be explained in two paragraphs, but it is a start. Just an idea...

R. Steht
Sgt/ USMC (former)
0331/ 8152/ 8154
Police Officer
Highly Pissed

[ToneLoc3/144]

I'm not sure about local or state PD but for us Fed's we ask for a LEO form at the ticket counter, fill it out, sign in with local PD at the security checkpoint, give the form to the stewardess (after pre-boarding), keep one copy for yourself and enjoy the flight. You might call the airlines to see if local or state guys can carry thier piece on the plane. I personally never get on an aircraft unless I'm armed, you never know whats going to happen. Take care and be safe.
Tone

------------------
U.S.B.P
You Know..Someday this wars gonna end.

[Thurlkill]

From all the ideas that me and my guys have been throwing around, that sounds like one of the best yet. Unfortunatly, I don't think it will happen. How long have we been trying to get it passed so that we can carry state to state in our own cars, let alone and airplane?
I agree that it would be extremely low cost and would put more officers on a plane than the government could probably do, I just feel that the decision makers are not willing to hand over that much control to a "local yocal."

[RECON5]

Originally posted by ToneLoc3/144:
I'm not sure about local or state PD but for us Fed's we ask for a LEO form at the ticket counter, fill it out, sign in with local PD at the security checkpoint, give the form to the stewardess (after pre-boarding), keep one copy for yourself and enjoy the flight.


This State or State Agency to be more specific follows those same guidelines. We were all mandated to take the FAA training course. Although there have been previous efforts to prevent LEO's from flying while armed, I tend to agree that times and attitudes are changing. That idea sounds more reasonable than any I have heard thus far.

------------------
REMEMBER 1*
"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT"
In memory of ALL our fallen

[Tracy]

All airliners already have a real effective security device: air pressure. In the event of an attempted hijacking, depressurize the aircraft.

Now the unruly passengers have a choice: hijack the aircraft or stay conscious. At 25,000 MSL, you have about 30 seconds of useful consciousness; at 35,000 MSL the limit is 5 seconds. Another benefit of depressurization is that it limits the effectiveness of bombs. Put in a structural kevlar bulkhead in betweeen the passengers and flight deck.

You know, another thing to consider would be hiring police officers to be in-flight 'bouncers'; not armed with firearms but trained to use the rest of the force spectrum. Now you reduce the chances of an explosive decompression with a badly placed round from a pistol.

Another security measure is to ban the use of the toilets in the forward portion of the aircraft, thuus eliminating a loitering area.

Hmmm... I think I'll write to American and United about this...

[fish78]

"You want to stop hijackings? Arm all the passengers" Archie Bunker circa 1972

How about anyone with a carry permit, most of us shoot better than most police officers.

[HmtPD2]

Fish.....Your right. They say the best place to be during an officer involved shooting is next to the bad guy.
I think you Feds get some carry privliges we state and local guys arent afforded.

[Sharky]

The difference between Feds and state or local is that State and Local officers are required to have a letter signed by the chief of that agency on departmental letterhead that the officer has their permission to fly armed and the justification for that officer to be armed such as a prisoner transport etc.... Feds do not require a letter or justification to fly armed.

I'm honestly not sure about the reasons for these requirements as I know a lot of non-Fed guys that I would love to see flying armed. I also know a lot of Fed guys that shouldn't even be allowed to carry pepper spray, much less a firearm in the air or not.

Also remember that no matter who you are, if the Captain of that plane doesn't want you armed on his bird, you have two choices. Put the gun in your checked baggage or take a later flight and hope the next Captain feels differently. As I've said before, Professionalism and discreetness go a long way with those guys. If you come on there acting like some sort of badass hoping the plane gets hijacked so you can get some trigger time you won't be flying armed and I would hope that they reported you to your agency.

Professional. Discreet.

I also agree that marksmanship ability should be a huge priority. As for the rounds, I have been told that frangible low-velocity rounds already exist for just such a purpose. Just my $.02

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[HmtPD2]

I just saw a little clip on the news talking about a "new agency...the Air marshals." Nowhere did they mention that they have been around for over twenty years but their budget got scrapped. They said applications have already been pouring in and there havnt even been recruiting efforts mounted.
They also mentioned El Al Airlines, Israels Airline. Their pilots and crew carry weapons.
Unfortunately.....I'm sure in the coming months, the Air Marshal Apps will decline considerably. Like Sharky said, I think there are a lot of people "looking for a gunfight.", and thinking it is a glamorous job. Like anything, we all know they were needed, but it hadnt hit home yet.

[mdb23]

Originally posted by fish78:
[B
How about anyone with a carry permit, most of us shoot better than most police officers.[/B]

Wanker

mdb23

[Huey One Four]

Originally posted by mdb23:
Wanker

mdb23



good call.

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"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, there you long to return."
- Leonardo da Vinci (1452 - 1519)

[grrlcop74]

I agree with Tracy and Sharky. I also agree with fish...admit it guys, alot of cops SUCK at shooting. We've had this discussion before. Civilians who are interested generally have more time and money to devote to the range, whereas we have to work it in between shifts, pay for extra time ourselves (on our salaries--eek!), etc., and most of us just can't or won't do it. I shudder to think of some of my fellow officers armed with a gun in a small confined space. As a former airport police officer, I learned first hand how difficult it can be to actually get to your weapon when it comes time for a knock-down, drag-out fight on an aircraft, especially something the size of an MD-11. And as far as inflight goes, I could give a rat's ass less about accidently hitting one passenger..it's piercing holes in that fuselage that makes me worry. No sense in doing their job for them.

Kristen

[USMCSNIPERONE]

Good points all! Another point to ponder is the type of ammo used. We have at our disposal several bullets that will incapacitate a "soft" target, but will not penetrate hard targets like the cabin skin and cockpit door. Yes, marksmanship training,practice time and free ammo for you LEO's should be a "no brainer"! I have the only "Unrestricted" pistol permit in my county that was issued to a "Civilian"! I carry 99% of the time unless I'm going into a Federal building. The difference is that I shoot between 3000 and 5000 rnds a year in my handguns. I still believe in "one shot,one kill".

Be safe out there,watch your six!

Semper Fi Sniperone

[RECON5]

Originally posted by grrlcop74:
I agree with Tracy and Sharky. I also agree with fish...admit it guys, alot of cops SUCK at shooting.

Alot of gun toting citizens are over zealous wannabe's who are dangerous enough just walking around with guns, much less on an airplane with one...One good shot deserves another...and by the way I'm all in favor of the concealed licenses.


Originally posted by grrlcop74:
We've had this discussion before.

This topic is not the place for it. There was no call for that remark.


Originally posted by grrlcop74:

and most of us just can't or won't do it.
Kristen

It's sad...can't or won't get to the range to practice a skill, which would could save your life, but spend hours on the computer giving suggestions to a problem that is not even ours to address.....

This is no more directed at any one person than Fish's general comment about Police. Just venting ........ <:getting off soapbox:>

------------------
REMEMBER 1*
"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT"
In memory of ALL our fallen

[HmtPD2]

I think one key factor to look at is what type of shooting are you comparing. Most cops who are doing low stress target practice are pretty decent, and better than most average citizens.
If you are talking about a gunfight, sure, rounds tend to get thrown.
I dont know about you guys, but I get free rounds from my dept and free access to the dept range. There is no civilian that I know that has more time or facilities to shoot more often. I dont know of ANY cop that cant get to the range. I know some LAZY ones that never go, and I stay away from them. If you read my initial post, I stated that there should be training, shooting quals, and update training. It should be a rigorous course. If an Air MArshal can do the job, a trained police officer can as well. This post is not about cops that "SUCK" at shooting. Those are the ones that would not be considered.
As for fighting and getting your gun out. What is the difference between that and fighting in the hallway of a house or any other confined space we deal with.
What you are not seeing is that POLICE already perform this job. All of the concerns you have addressed have already been overcome and dealt with. If you are not confident enough to cary, dont. I am completely confident in my shooting abilities, and know that other officers and I that train would be an asset. I find it a little strange that any LEO would be against it providing strict guides are set.

[fish78]

Hey, I meant no disrespect to the police. But it is a fact that many civilian shooters do spend more time and money shooting than most police officers. I am not now nor have I ever been a "wanker".
When Bill Jeans was stll at Gunsite he was not shy about telling how poor a shot the average police officer is. The police officers have way more important things to do than practice shoting...Law enforcement people do a dangerous and difficult job for way too little money. My point was that many concealed carry permit holders(I am one) practice regularly and are proficient marksmen. In addition why should the Second Amendment not apply while we are in the air?
I am not some over zealous gun toter spoiling for a fight. i have chosen to carry a weapon on occaision and believe if I am going to carry a gun, I need the training and the expertise to properly employ it.
Sorry if I stepped on anyone toes.

[mdb23]

Just for clarification, I am not in favor of local and state LE being able to carry firearms upon aircraft.

I also agree that LE Officers, at least in my experience, spend little time practicing a skill which very well may save their lives.

Regardless, fish's derogatory comment was uncalled for, and had no place in this thread.

mdb23

[fish78]

Originally posted by mdb23:
Just for clarification, I am not in favor of local and state LE being able to carry firearms upon aircraft.

I also agree that LE Officers, at least in my experience, spend little time practicing a skill which very well may save their lives.

Regardless, fish's derogatory comment was uncalled for, and had no place in this thread.

mdb23

It was not meant to be derogatory. If It was interpreted in that way I am sorry. mbd23 you have my sincere apology.

[mdb23]

No problem.

mdb23

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by fish78:
many concealed carry permit holders(I am one) practice regularly and are proficient marksmen.

Paper doesn't shoot back.

(no flame, Fish-man http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/wink.gif )



[This message has been edited by RogueExec (edited 09-20-2001).]

[dragonrain]

Thats a good point Rogue. (Not a slam on Fish)

DR
Case

[RECON5]

Fish - No problem, I understand your point and have a close personal friend (CCL), who is a better shot than ALOT of cops I know, BUT ..
keeping Rogue's comment in mind, I ran him through a combat course that was a mere simulation of a course we trained with and he could not hit crap. Standing on line at the Range shooting paper is one thing, and granted alot of even proficient LE shooters only stand on the line shooting paper, but HmtPD was referring to those who had the proper training.

------------------
REMEMBER 1*
"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT"
In memory of ALL our fallen

[fish78]

I do not limit my practice to simple paper targets at the range. I will not elaborate further for personal reasons.

[Watsy]

Originally posted by RECON5:
It's sad...can't or won't get to the range to practice a skill, which would could save your life, but spend hours on the computer giving suggestions to a problem that is not even ours to address.....


Amen...

Watsy




------------------
Take calculated risks.
That is quite different from being rash.
George S. Patton

[Sharky]

Now now.......play nice people. I didn't see anything on here that I find offensive. You guys are getting way too serious. If Kristen and Watsy want to go at it, I say break out the vegetable oil and the kiddie pool. The rest of you guys need to cease fire.

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F.I.D.O.

[Watsy]

Originally posted by Sharky:

If Kristen and Watsy want to go at it, I say break out the vegetable oil and the kiddie pool.


Un[F***in']believable...
<<very disappointed in a comment like this>>


------------------
Take calculated risks.
That is quite different from being rash.
George S. Patton

[Sharky]

It was a freakin joke woman, damn. WTF is up with you guys? Go get laid or something. Jeez. http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif

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F.I.D.O.

[dragonrain]

"El Double Tap"

[This message has been edited by dragonrain (edited 09-20-2001).]

[dragonrain]

Hey I love all ya. I think its just been a shity 2 weeks.

Sharky, Ill have you know that "I smacked it up, flipped it, and rubbed it down" this mourning http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/wink.gif

We need to get back to the days of long threads and SWAT bricks.

And Watsy, Nothing but respect for the Female LE.

Case
DR

Case
DR

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"Close only counts in horse shoes and drunk sex"

[Huey One Four]

Im sorry too, Fish, I just get a bit jumpy when I perceive people to have insulted cops (or LEOs as they are populary know on this board).
Once again, my apologys.

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"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, there you long to return."
- Leonardo da Vinci (1452 - 1519)

[mdb23]

Originally posted by Sharky:
Now now.......play nice people. I didn't see anything on here that I find offensive. You guys are getting way too serious. If Kristen and Watsy want to go at it, I say break out the vegetable oil and the kiddie pool. The rest of you guys need to cease fire.



Wanker! (couldn't resist)

mdb23

[grrlcop74]

I'm feeling the love here, finally. I know these are tense times but we're all in this together, so let's agree to disagree without getting personal. Quit yer bitchin, don't be so damn touchy, and let's sing "Kumbaya"!! http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Kristen

[USMCSNIPERONE]

We are all walking a fine line this past week.Between mourning for our losses, looking over our shoulders and trying to forcast the future. Lets keep it together! America needs us as one nation right now!
Lets show the world who their F@#$KING with!

Semper Fi Sniperone

[Curtis Newkirk]

First, Don't Start!
I'm not a gameboy freak or anything, but do any of your PDs have access to a FATS machine (Fire Arms Training Simulator).
It's a great training tool. It's great for shoot/don't shoot scenarios. It also let's you know where your rounds impact. You get to see how many bystanders you took out before you took down the subject.
We have a setup using both the M16 ond M9.

------------------
Nuck
"Defensor Brewus"
Defender of the beer

[mdb23]

We receive FATS training once per year (during in service training).

We are able to use lethal, as well as less than lethal, force with our programs.


mdb23

[HmtPD2]

Its amazing the direction these posts take.

I do have one question...You Border Patrol Guys....Are you authorized to carry off-duty weapons? And do you have any law enforcement authority off duty in the same way a police officer would?
I do not know much about the BP, and was told once you "clock out" you are pretty much Joe citizen. For example, I legally have law enforcement authority anywhere in California as a Peace Officer and can make arrests and carry a firearm anywhere. However, if I go to Virginia, things change. What is your sphere of influence and responsibility to act as a BP Agent off duty.
Before anyone overreacts...I have been a cop for few years, but have had MAYBE three contacts with BP. That was when they came to get previously deported felons.
Someone stated earlier that Federal LE could fly with off duty weapons all of the time on domestic flights, just wondering if BP is included.

Thanks

[This message has been edited by HmtPD (edited 09-21-2001).]

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by Curtis Newkirk:
FATS machine (Fire Arms Training Simulator).
It's a great training tool.


It is extremely useful to improve basic technique, but it doesn't really simulate any kind of realistic combat conditions.

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by fish78:
I do not limit my practice to simple paper targets at the range. I will not elaborate further for personal reasons.

Understood, bro. You've got incoming. http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

[Sharky]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HmtPD:
Its amazing the direction these posts take.

I do have one question...You Border Patrol Guys....Are you authorized to carry off-duty weapons?

Yes, we are authorized to carry off duty anywhere in the nation. Until recently though the only weapon that we were allowed to carry was the full size Beretta that we carry in uniform. Recently the HK USP 40 was authorized for off duty carry in a special configuration designed and sold by HK specifically to INS and BP.

And do you have any law enforcement authority off duty in the same way a police officer would?

Yes, but it varies from state to state. If the state that we are in considers BP Agents as "Peace Officers" we can arrest just like any local PD. If not then we are limited to Felony arrests or misdemeanors that involve a breach of the peace. Anything else is considered to be a citizens arrest.

I do not know much about the BP, and was told once you "clock out" you are pretty much Joe citizen.

That is a personal choice for individual Agents. Unfortunately that attitude has came about because of the BP's reluctance to stand behind their Agents if they are involved in an off-duty incident. Generally, the Agency seems to work more toward faulting the agent who was involved regardless of the circumstances. An old axiom of the BP is that you will never lose your job for doing nothing but you may for taking action. A poor attitude if you ask me.

What is your sphere of influence and responsibility to act as a BP Agent off duty.

BP Agents actually have a broader spectrum of arrest authority than any other Federal Agency. This is because of the variety of crimes that we encounter in remote locations where the Agency that is primarily tasked with enforcement isn't available and exigent circumstances apply. Would you believe that we have the authority to administer oaths just like a Federal Judge? As an example we have delegated authority from the DEA to make arrests and seizures involving Title 21 violations but we do not have the authority to prosecute the cases. We make the arrests and seize the vehicles and turn it all over to a DEA Agent who will actually do the complaint and present the case to the US Attorneys office. We do the work, they get the stats. Approximately 70% of DEA's prosecutable cases stem from BP arrests. Customs has a lot of drug cases but they have the authority to prosecute their own cases.

Before anyone overreacts...I have been a cop for few years, but have had MAYBE three contacts with BP. That was when they came to get previously deported felons.

Overreact? Moi? LOL..... nothing wrong with asking a good question bro.


Someone stated earlier that Federal LE could fly with off duty weapons all of the time on domestic flights, just wondering if BP is included.

Yes we are. We also have authority in many circumstances to carry on international flights and overseas. We are actually encouraged to fly armed if we are transporting our weapons. Not because the Agency wants us to be able to act if something happens on the plane. Rather, it is because of the pain in the ass that it causes when a weapon is lost in checked baggage. Mucho paperwork and investigation.

Thanks

No prob bro. Hope that helps.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[This message has been edited by Sharky (edited 09-21-2001).]

[WS-G]

Originally posted by grrlcop74:
...it's piercing holes in that fuselage that makes me worry.
Relax. A few small-arms induced punctures in the metal structure won't cause a catastrophic failure; the flight engineer need only close the outflow valve in order to maintain cabin pressure (unless one shatters a porthole <G> ).

Further, the landing gear and flight control subsystem actuators are always plumbed so that they are never dependent on a single hydraulic system in order to function. Transport category aircraft typically have three — or in some cases, four (e.g.: B747, C-5) — separate hydraulic systems.

Vital electrical equipment is powered in a similarly redundant fashion.

None of the heavies in use by civilian air carriers are equipped with LOX converters, therefore there isn't one aboard to worry about puncturing. All low-pressure GOX plumbing (to the emergency constant-flow masks installed for the pax) is run through the overhead, and any regulator from which that plumbing is run is going to be a very small target.

Bottom line: while catastrophic damage (e.g.: structural failure or flight-control damage rendering the aircraft uncontrollable) by small arms fire to a large aircraft in-flight is theoretically possible, barring the proverbial "Golden BB" the statistical likelihood asymptotically approaches nil.

[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 09-21-2001).]

[Bubbler]

I'm a say a little something and then go back to the military boards.

I guess for starters most civilians can't shoot better then copers. But the rare percentage that can, those who frequent the shooting range regularly, can shoot better then most military personel (Because most military personel will never be trained in and or carry a pistol, unlike what tv may have you believe i.e. pistol and judo experts). But then why shouldn't they? The greater effort in pistol craft is theirs.

The fact is out side of fantasy, copers aren't desinged to be street level assassins with the semi-auto. This maybe good or this maybe bad, depending on the senerio you put forth as I see it. Perhaps good if the majority of there calls are domestic violence and arresting people for urinating in the street. Perhaps bad if we are talking about the need "put down" an individual fleeing from a crime scene and shooting amidst innocent bystanders.

my question is - and not to be a smart a$$... well maybe a little - would there be more to city copers "carrying" aboard plane (across state lines), then being macho?

And for one no matter what (having already discussed this with my uncle - former cop who has killed in the line of duty), you cops can do as you will, but I wouldn't be subduing anyone 6 feet something over 300 pounds, I'm sorry I'm a shoot him. And if a hit in the body doesn't do it, I might just peel his dome back.

But as to the planes - why not employ pissed off Postal workers, I'm sure they can back flip more the a couple people http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[WS-G]

Originally posted by Bubbler:
I guess for starters most civilians can't shoot better then copers.
Marksmanship as a "coping skill"? Well, I suppose that's one way to cope with a grim situation.

But the rare percentage that can, those who frequent the shooting range regularly...,
We had a guy in my academy class — let's just call him Billy-Bob Rambo to avoid using his real name — who'd had a long habit of spending every last cent of his disposable income buying up every battle/assault/hunting rifle he could find, suffered a severe case of Glock-mania, owned his own personal firing range, etc. This individual was by far the most "trigger-happy" cadet in the class, yet one of the worst shooters.

The point is: time on the range isn't necessarily time used productively. Many a round gets expended only for the purpose of reinforcing poor technique. This is why formal instruction, under professional supervision is so important, even for experienced shooters.


(Because most military personel will never be trained in and or carry a pistol....
11C/H/M, 12-series, 13-series, 14-series, 15-/150-series, 18-series and 19-series personnel — are required to regularly qualify on the M-1911A1 and/or M-9.
Perhaps good if the majority of there calls are domestic violence...From an officer-safety standpoint, domestic disputes have the greatest likelihood of turning into officer-involved shootings. Next on the list is the so-called "routine [no such thing!] traffic stop".

Perhaps bad if we are talking about the need "put down" an individual fleeing from a crime scene and shooting amidst innocent bystanders.
The case of Garner vs. Tennessee effectively ended the "fleeing felon" justification.

[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 09-22-2001).]

[HmtPD2]

I'm thinkin' William knows a little about airplanes?

[murphquake]

Let's not be subjective here. William knows 342,985 things about airplanes. Whether that is a lot or a little is moot. I'm not here to argue about who shoot better cops vs. civilians vs. SFOD-murphquake (im my own beer killing machine!) but again why we face this as a simple who's job problem when the problem is obviously societal. How many of you watched the "news" over the last week and a half and saw all these whining grownups crying about how they shouldn't have let it happen, what are they doing to protect us from them. Abe L. probably said it best: "...by the People, for the People and of the People." Who's they? Themselves. Who's them? Us. Airline saftey will come by, for and of the People, not the special federal agency or a cops who get to carry on planes now. Someone said it was "Archie Bunker's" response to "arm the passengers" it is the right and responsibility of any 'Citizen' to protect themselves, their family and friends, and their nation, whether it's China invading us or some arrogant pricks hijacking our airplanes (and they are ours, with all the government money that the airlines get) Think about it.
-bill all givin orders and sheeit ;-)

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by William M Salter:

just call him Billy-Bob Rambo

[This message has been edited by William M Salter (edited 09-22-2001).]

Any relation to Jeff??? http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/wink.gif



------------------
REMEMBER 1*
"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT"
In memory of ALL our fallen

[WS-G]

HmtPD:

A bit. <G>

RogueExec:

Suffice it to say that I'm sure Billy-Bob and Jeff don't share the same gene pool.

[HmtPD2]

double tap

[This message has been edited by HmtPD (edited 09-24-2001).]

[Augie]

Good Job Sharky!

[HmtPD2]

Just heard that Congress is considering legislation allowing pilots and select aircrew to carry firearms. It was on Fox News earlier today.

[fish78]

I, for one, would be willing to take and pay for training specific to firearm use on aircraft, if the training and the background check performed before my CCL was issued, would allow me to travel with my firearm.
If the pilots want to be armed; train them and let them carry!

[Curtis Newkirk]

The last thing I ned is a flight attendant drawing down on me for a little pat on the ass. But what the hell, guns excite me!

------------------
Nuck
"Defensor Brewus"
Defender of the beer

[Huey One Four]

I dont agree with giving pilots firearms. Think about what a bitch it would be to draw from sitting down, while belted in and the terrorist/hijacker standing right behind you. It would just aggravate the hostile party and possibly get the pilot (and others)
killed for their troubles. Besides, the crew have to stay calm and in control so everyone else stays calm and not get excited and start playing Dirty Harry with armed goons.

Rhys


[This message has been edited by Huey One Four (edited 09-25-2001).]

[USMCSNIPERONE]

Originally posted by Huey One Four:
I dont agree with giving pilots firearms. Think about what a bitch it would be to draw from sitting down, while belted in and the terrorist/hijacker standing right behind you. It would just aggravate the hostile party and possibly get the pilot (and others)
killed for their troubles. Besides, the crew have to stay calm and in control so everyone else stays calm and not get excited and start playing Dirty Harry with armed goons.

Rhys.]

Huey, I disagree! The pilot having a weapon is the last resort! Having a weapon is the only feasible way to stop someone that has breached the cockpit. It is not for fights in the passenger compartment or even murder there. His responsibility is flying and landing that airplane'"no matter what!" The crew must handle the passengers with whatever means possible. I don't care what happens in the passenger compartment, as long as that plane is never again used as a weapon. As for not being able to get to the gun while buckled in or drawing from the seated position, that just takes alittle practice. Shoulder holsters help, but the options are endless. All I know is if you bring a boxcutter to a gun fight, you will lose, usually! .02 mode off now!

Semper Fi Sniperone

[Huey One Four]

Assuming the only things hijackers could take onboard are boxcutters or similer objects, what about giving the crew pepper/OC/capsicin/whatever-the-hell-it-is-called-in-other-areas spray? This could also be used to deal with drunk and/or disorderly passengers.
Dont get me wrong, I'm not playing devils advocate here, I'm just trying to add in some alternatives because I beleive firearms should be a last resort. In any situation.

Rhys

[Sharky]

Pepper spray at 35K feet would be worse than a 12 gauge. That is the absolute worst thing you could use in an aircraft.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Huey One Four]

Whys that?

[c130streamer]

Originally posted by Sharky:
Pepper spray at 35K feet would be worse than a 12 gauge. That is the absolute worst thing you could use in an aircraft.



Confined space

[Erick]

A couple thoughts on this, if you'll allow me...

Shooting skills are relative. I teach for my department, in CCW classes and elsewhere. I'm seen cops & decent normal folks who are phenominal shots bot in terms of the accuracy game and the "reality" stuff. I've also seen members of both groups that I wouldn't trust with a squirt gun.

Allowing officers to fly armed is rather like off-duty carry. Give them the option, once they've met training requirements. If you don't want the benefits & risks of flying armed, that's armed - that's fine, don't. But do not deny those who / need to that option. I spent a considerable amont of time flying - armed - in the week and a half after the attacks. Didn't have a choice, I'm cross designated to federal ageny that has the policy that if you take a gun with you, you carry it on you rather than checking it.

Both my partner & I ended up on several different planes. All of the flight crews were happy to have us there - btw, we weren't doing Sky Marshal stuff.

The ability to carry nation wide for all sworn officers is something that really needs to be addressed. Again, if one chooses not to do so, that's fine, just don't interfer with those officers & deputies who want to.

Thanks.

Erick

[Watsy]

Originally posted by Erick:
A couple thoughts on this, if you'll allow me...

The ability to carry nation wide for all sworn officers is something that really needs to be addressed. Again, if one chooses not to do so, that's fine, just don't interfer with those officers & deputies who want to.

Thanks.

Erick

I agree one hundred percent!!!

Watsy


------------------
Take calculated risks.
That is quite different from being rash.
George S. Patton

[fish78]

To any airline executive types or FAA officials: I propose giving passengers a choice: armed flights or non armed flights. See which fills up faster.

Just let the free market work.

I agree all sworn LEO should be allowed to carry nation wide...so should all CC license holders.

[Eod Guy]

A recent letter, I think all LEO's should email your rep's. Note House Bill 218 is the house side.

September 19, 2001


Georgia 30215

Dear ###:

Thank you for contacting me about the right to carry concealed weapons
across state lines. I appreciate hearing from you on this matter.

As you may know, on March 1, 2001, Senator Campbell introduced S. 442, the
Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2001, which has been referred to the Senate
Judiciary Committee. S. 442 would exempt qualified law enforcement officers
from state laws prohibiting the carrying of a concealed weapon. Furthermore, it
would allow states to enter into compacts with each other for a cooperative
effort to enable individuals to carry concealed weapons in another state other
than that which issued the permit to carry the concealed weapon in the first
place. In addition, on March 12, 2001, Senator Smith introduced S. 514, the
Secure Access to Firearms Enhancement Act of 2001, and it was referred to the
Senate Judiciary Committee. This measure would enable individuals licensed to
carry a concealed weapon in their own state to carry them in another.

As a combat veteran I am a strong supporter of the right to bear arms and I
will continue to support focusing law enforcement efforts on keeping guns out of
the hands of criminals. Please be assured that if S. 442, or S. 514 reach the
full Senate, your comments will be very helpful to me. Again, thank you for
contacting me. It was good to hear from you.

Most respectfully,

Max Cleland
United States Senator

MC:mdp

[fish78]

Notice Max did not say he would vote for these proposals. He is a big government Democrat. His voting record on gun rights is not good.