Bad Guys with Cameras

[ToneLoc3/144]

I just saw some Intell come across my desk. It seems that several officer shootings recently where the bad guys had several entrances to their homes wired with concealed cameras. One guy even had microphones in the yard so he heard the op-plan live. The officers were behind cover but the bad guy knew where they were with the camera and fired through the walls, killing one officer. There was also another shooting that involved the hidden mini cameras. Same story but the agents were only wounded this time.
Just a reminder that even though you may be behind cover, you are on the bad guys turf. If I can find out more I'll post later. Stay safe out there.

Tone

------------------
U.S.B.P
You Know..Someday this wars gonna end.

[This message has been edited by ToneLoc3/144 (edited 10-03-2001).]

[RogueExec]

It's those damned Poor Man's James Bond-type mags and freakin' NIC that sells that shit that anyone can buy and rig up.

You all know NIC, right? Same company that sells fake credentials that will get you past 95% of the security check points these days???

Can you say, "Terrorist supermarket"?

Knew you could.

Jeez.

------------------
REMEMBER 1*
"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT"
In memory of ALL our fallen

[ToneLoc3/144]

Just saw where some Secret Service guys were mini-cam taped while executing a search warrant. The shit-bag put up photos of the Agents along with thier names on a web site. Be safe guys.

Tone

------------------
U.S.B.P
You Know..Someday this wars gonna end.

[josepy]

So are we supposed to outlaw cameras?

[murphquake]

Yes, and everything else. I hate to say it here, but cops tend to get awful dicey with other peoples freedom when it puts them in danger. If they wanted a camera to watch their front door they deserve it, but anyone else doesn't? Thus the problems of power, luckily we live in a society where power is kept in check, but there are always those who dont get it, and those that let it get them. Ben Franklin hit the nail right on the head "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-bill

[RECON5]

Originally posted by josepy:
So are we supposed to outlaw cameras?

That would be a knee jerk reaction........
I think the point being made is, at this particular time, current events being taken into consideration and OPSEC a priority, this bit of information would be one more to keep in mind. The general public is just now finding out that there is no OUT OF BOUNDS in this game.

The American people in general have been surprisingly willing to give up certain liberties & freedoms to feel safe again ie: having to arrive 2-4 prior to flights departing to have bags checked, and even there person searched. I am not saying this should be taken to any extreme, such as "out lawing camera's", but in trying times it has been comforting to see the cooperation
and understanding of the general public.



------------------
REMEMBER 1*
"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT"
In memory of ALL our fallen

[josepy]

The endangerment of a few does not give you right to steal freedoms of the masses. The Constitution is pretty clear about this.

The only thing that is going to make people safe is killing some Tangos. Security is fine but it will never stop the truely committed.


________

I am a cop supporter, but it sounds like they need better training. Not hard to beat a camera. Smoke grenades/pellet guns do wonders.

[murphquake]

Good post Josepy!
RECON5: Here's my beef with airport check in: Airlines are supposed to be private entities, at least in the US, and therefore can make any requirements they want for their aircraft. No guns? OK. No knives? OK. I can live with that. The problem I have is when the fucking FAA (who none of us voted for) decides all of a sudden that we are in a police state in an airport (which somehow are still run by the government) If people want to carry guns and knives on to a plane then either they should need permission from the airlines who disallow it, and may set their own criteria. While working at JFK airport I met a pilot with an Air Force One sticker on his pilot box (what do you call those? almost all pilots have it, big leather covered box, bout 3 times as wide as an average briefcase?) we were talking and I asked him about it and he told me he was one of the pilots during the Reagan and Bush administrations. I asked him if there were a lot of AF1 pilots in the commercial carriers and he said that there were quite a few. It seems to me that those individuals would be ideal to carryout the armed pilots thing. But when the government gets involved in the deal I have a problem, we've allowed ourselves to put the airlines under our every whim by subsidizing them so we can use them in time of war. I think things would be a lot different if the Airlines had been allowed to grow on their own. The day after the pilots association said they want guns I got the new issue of G&A and there was a letter from a guy (a brit nonetheless IIRC) saying he used to travel armed, and the funniest thing that ever happened to him was once he went to check in at a Texas airport and they asked if the gun was loaded and when he said no they told him too. Interesting stuff abounds in these strange days.
-bill

[Huey One Four]

I wouldnt be surprised if that some of that camera footage(sp?) ended up on "Worlds Scarest Police Busts XXI with John Burnell." http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif
Speaking of stupid TV, I just found out theres going to be ANOTHER Survivor! Will you yanks ever quit??!!! LOL

[SSMV]

I have no problem with the Feds stepping into the airline security role. Obviously, our little $5.25 security officers who are working at the X-ray machines and metal detectors are not doing their job. They receive no formal training and really have no clue what they are looking for.

As for the cameras, I have to side with Josepy. I am all for doing everything possible to ensure our LE agents are protected in every possible way. However, their is no way that we are going to be able to make their job totally secure. There will always be an occupational hazard that comes with that position and 99.99% of LE agents know that and they are willing to take that risk or else they are in the wrong business.

[This message has been edited by SSMV (edited 10-03-2001).]

[jnc36rcpd]

Did a moderator delete a post by some cop advocating restrictions on security cameras or civil liberties? It seems that some posts were deleted here. Information about an emerging bad-guy technique is somehow translated into a LEO conspiracy against American freedom.

While it's nice to promote public understanding of police problems, perhaps we should restrict converstaions like this to LEO-restricted sites such as Policeone. While you can never put the cat entirely back into the bag, threads like this inevitably give other mopes tactical advice.

Be safe. (Oh, don't get dicey about other people's freedom while you go about it.)

[This message has been edited by jnc36rcpd (edited 10-03-2001).]

[Curtis Newkirk]

I'm not going into the Secrity of AF1, but I can say that the pilots with a past history of AF1 have no more qualifications than the AirPort Sky Cap.

------------------
Nuck
"Defensor Brewus"
Defender of the beer

[RECON5]

Originally posted by josepy:
The endangerment of a few does not give you right to steal freedoms of the masses. The Constitution is pretty clear about this.


Oddly enough the airline had been promoting removing all guns from the airplanes up to and to include any peace officer except the FBI. Now after this incident our agency, which fly's frequently for buisness is being invited by every airline here to jump on thier planes "armed". It has nothing to to do with the federal government...The buisness is afraid of loosing passengers. No I am not a liberal screaming about big business and pushing for more government restraints, but before you jump on the Guardsmen posted at the airport check with the pilot and some passengers in line to see how they feel about the extra security. Should everyone be left to defend themselves because a FEW are scared of loosing "Liberty & Freedom" by having there bags checked before getting on a plane.


I am a cop supporter, but it sounds like they need better training. Not hard to beat a camera. Smoke grenades/pellet guns do wonders. [/QUOTE]

Spoken like a true arm chair quaterback. Can you say "Civil Rights Law Suit". I am a cop with better than 12years in the business, and 5 as an Operator. I have ran against targets protected by camera's. Keeping JNC36's postin mind if you want to know why you solutions are not viable hit me on the private email or I will give you my work number and I will be glad to discuss it with you.

------------------
REMEMBER 1*
"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT"
In memory of ALL our fallen

[Tracy]

Originally posted by ToneLoc3/144:
I just saw some Intell come across my desk. It seems that several officer shootings recently where the bad guys had several entrances to their homes wired with concealed cameras. One guy even had microphones in the yard so he heard the op-plan live. The officers were behind cover but the bad guy knew where they were with the camera and fired through the walls, killing one officer. There was also another shooting that involved the hidden mini cameras. Same story but the agents were only wounded this time.
Just a reminder that even though you may be behind cover, you are on the bad guys turf. If I can find out more I'll post later. Stay safe out there.

Tone



Before someone else starts waving rights and privacy around, it seems to me that the best way to defeat the threat of cameras is to set up the stack outside of camera range and move swiftly to the entry point and get in as quick as possible.

Obviously, any hesitation on the entry team's part with cameras on them is going to hurt. Another thing to consider is making any entry point where there isn't a door.

In simplistic terms, the bad guys shortened their attack 'loop' (Locate-React-Attack); and the LE folks, once again, need to find a way to get inside their loop with their own attack process (Locate-Identify-React-Attack).

Speed to, and through, the entry point could be the easiest method. Once inside, the external cameras are useless.

Extra ballistic shields are another option; placed alongside the wall.

Another option is to cut power inside. How many bad guys use APS (Batteries)?

Two words: Night Assault.

If the cameras are daylight type, using a pellet rifle to take out the lights can be another fix. I don't think screening with smoke is viable because you have to wait for billowing and pray it obscures the camera lens.

Hunting for the cameras I think is a bad idea because of their size; but doing a good recon (if possible) and intel collection prior to the raid is always in order.

If those idiots were silly enough to get it professionally installed, going to the local security folks and checking their installation records could help. The records will show where the cameras were installed and their orientation.

Amateur installation most likely means EXTERNAL wiring; something to look for during a leader's recon. CAT-V cable looks different from phone lines. Any wire that looks out of place is suspect. And the boxes they run into look different as well. If there's no box, that could be a clue also.

Taking external shots of the residence over a period of time could help. They could show recent changes and additions.

Hmmm, sounds like an LE Intelligence Section could provide better information for the raiders...

[SSMV]

I agree 100% Tracy. There are many ways around technology and if the perps are counting on having the technology (cameras) and they all of a sudden lose it, guess who has the upperhand now? Shock, fear, and anxiety will set in with them and now send the entry team in to clear the building.

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by RECON5:Now I am not a liberal screaming about big business and pushing for more government restraints, but before you jump on the Guardsmen posted at the airport check with the pilot and some passengers in line to see how they feel about the extra security. Should everyone be left to defend themselves because a FEW are scared of loosing "Liberty & Freedom" by having there bags checked before getting on a plane?

As one of those aforementioned Guardsmen (currently on a two-week ADSW @ Sea-Tac), I can tell you that the feeling at the airport now is one of relief and grateful patience from 99% of the passengers. We haven't given ANYTHING up, and what we've gained is a quicker return toward "business-as-usual". As for the FAA, let us not forget that we'd be dealing with a helluva lot more hijacked, kamikaze planes, and an assload more dead folks, if the FAA hadn't immediately shut down all airports.


Originally posted by josepy:I am a cop supporter, but it sounds like they need better training. Not hard to beat a camera. Smoke grenades/pellet guns do wonders.

http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif

[Sharky]

Methinks that several here missed the INTENT of the original post, to include one of our administrators. Toneloc wasn't advocating outlawing cameras. He was reminding SWAT guys out there to be careful of these things because they might get you fucking DEAD!. Personally, anything that might increase my chances of not getting shot, I think is good. Carry on.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Tracy]

Originally posted by Sharky:

Methinks that several here missed the INTENT of the original post, to include one of our administrators. Toneloc wasn't advocating outlawing cameras. He was reminding SWAT guys out there to be careful of these things because they might get you fucking DEAD!. Personally, anything that might increase my chances of not getting shot, I think is good. Carry on.


Can I get a 'Hooah' from the congregation?

I saw the post as a new tactic, and I threw out some countermeasures we tried in the past.

Regarding rights and freedom. The ideal condition is a benign dictatorship; with me as its benevolent leader... :-)

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by Tracy:
Regarding rights and freedom. The ideal condition is a benign dictatorship; with me as its benevolent leader... :-)



Now there's something I'd vote for.......wait......

http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif



------------------
REMEMBER 1*
"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT"
In memory of ALL our fallen

[murphquake]

SSMV: The point that I'm making is that airline security is not the government's job. The airlines are all for the feds taking it over cause it saves them money. Look at Midway airlines, they fired all their employees in the begining of september and now they are gonna take our money to fly again, what makes you think they'll do any better this time? Why is it that people think that we owe these people who can't run their business' anything? Why not just nationalize the airline industry and all the privately owned planes while we're at it? As for those still arguing about how to deal with the cameras, maybe the problem is that some people are spending too much time worrying about other people's business? Why are we raiding these people? what are they doing wrong? why is that wrong? I'm not saying that I have a problem with the officers who are putting their lives on the line everyday to try to keep the streets safe, but a wholesale evaluation of the rules and mores of society is part of your duty, as is it to attempt to change the things you see that are wrong. Anyone intelligent enough to be a police officer should be smart enough to think for themselves. How many of you actually know every law that is within your jursidiction? verbatim and in spirit? No? Me either. How about relevant court decisions and non legislative regulations? I would venture that most if not all of us break at least some of these pretty damn often. I just jaywalked about an hour ago. Maybe you sneeze on the street? Don't wanna spook no horses. As far as im concerned this is all a societal issue. Unfortunately good people like cops are thrown around like pawns in some political chess game, laws are passed nonstop for who remembers why and must be enforced, but it's no longer possible to enforce all the laws there are. So you guys have to try to keep the worst of the law breakers off the streets while letting the decent honest law breakers go. Seems strange to me for a free country.
-bill
P.S. I grant you free reign over your household and property Tracy. You're welcome.

[This message has been edited by murphquake (edited 10-05-2001).]

[Sharky]

And on that note.......I give up on this thread. http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[grrlcop74]

Originally posted by murphquake:
decent honest law breakers

LMAO..that's one of the more moronic arguments I've heard in a long time.

Kristen, who's now going over to the scout/sniper forum to tell them how to do their job....

[ToneLoc3/144]

I guess I missed the past two days. I never said we should outlaw cameras. At least Sharky and a few others could read what I wrote. Thanks Sharkman. Anyway, I believe that these were not dynamic entry style warrants. The Marshalls were just doing a knock and talk. The other was a traffic warrant. On one the camera was inside the front porch light. Pretty easy to miss from a OP across the street or on a drive by. I would like to meet the person who can hit a concealed penhole camera with a pellet gun that far away. Great Idea.

------------------
U.S.B.P
Don't Fight It Ese...

[This message has been edited by ToneLoc3/144 (edited 10-05-2001).]

[Swat1]

Well, sorry I didn't ring in earlier, but I got hit by the Nimda virus and lost my computer for a week.

First,

Not one LE officer advocated outlawing anything. An LE put out a warning basically to others in the field (how I took it) and the next thing you know were BIG Brother trying to stomp on your civil liberties. Murph, I don't know what the hell your' talking about.

As for those still arguing about how to deal with the cameras, maybe the problem is that some people are spending too much time worrying about other people's business? Why are we raiding these people? what are they doing wrong? why is that wrong? I'm not saying that I have a problem with the officers who are putting their lives on the line everyday to try to keep the streets safe, but a wholesale evaluation of the rules and mores of society is part of your duty, as is it to attempt to change the things you see that are wrong. Anyone intelligent enough to be a police officer should be smart enough to think for themselves. How many of you actually know every law that is within your jursidiction? verbatim and in spirit? No? Me either. How about relevant court decisions and non legislative regulations? I would venture that most if not all of us break at least some of these pretty damn often. I just jaywalked about an hour ago. Maybe you sneeze on the street? Don't wanna spook no horses.

Acting like LE does jaywalking search warrants with SWAT teams...get real. We execute search warrants for high risk situations like armed robbery suspects, meth labs, narc warrants, murder suspects, etc. I have personally been on search warrants where cameras and alarms were used by the suspects...let me tell you, persons who jaywalk, spit on the sidewalk, etc. don't mount cameras and alarms to protect their jaywalking shoes and mucus membranes...they are dangerous criminals who are looking out for the police because they are committing serious criminal acts.

(wish I had more time to reply to this but I have to go for now....more to follow)

Swat1*

[murphquake]

Sharky, I can grant you similar powers if it will make you happy =-)

Kristen, Happy to see you noticed how stupid that sounds, wouldn't law abiding include knowing every law applicable in all the jurisdictions you place yourself in at all times? Especially considering that the state has decreed time and time again that ignorance is no defense yet propagates ignorance purposefully? I'm trying to point out absurdity with absurdity here, we've jumped out of the plane of codified laws and no one has pulled the ripcord yet. Soon we'll be 0ft AGL and not pretty too look at (cept you of course, don't wanna mess up nuck's fantasies) I'm using a bit of satire here, and my stupidity is therefore completely intentional (in this case, don't even...) It's my prefered style of argument in most cases, and can be expected in the future as well.

ToneLoc3/144. I know you never said anything about outlawing cameras. I'm going off on tangents from what Josepy said in reference to what other posters said. In case you didn't notice I'm playing devil's advocate and just might be a bit of a libertarian (minor understatement there ;-) Welcome to the boards, it's nice to have you here. Just a note, in most buildings in NYC there is CCTV in the lobbies that can be watched from each apartment to verify who's buzzing you. So check with the supers before any raids here =-)

Swat1, Nasty little fucker aint it? Still not sure how I got it, but was able to kill it with extreme prejudice. Wasn't from a website AFAIK since I was already running a full up to date version of IE6, and I use hotmail, so it wasn't in any of my email, possible that my stepmother got it in her outlook... i have networking stuff all shut off so i had no damage and one registy change... got lucky, first time i was really happy to have winme =-) ANYWAY... Like I said, i was responding facetiously to Josepy at first and from there attending to things as I saw fit. The first thing that came to mind was just another thing for cops to keep an eye peeled for if they put themselves in harms way. The second was my usual there goes more freedom down the crapper alarm. I'm not saying anyone is doing no knock warrants cause of jay walkers, but here in NYC i have seen several people be subjected to (IMO) unreasonable searches after being stopped (IMO, again) unreasonably for jaywalking (Ask Pat Rogers about Queens Blvd., I believe he mentioned it here somewhere.) Some mopes forget to look both ways or get hit by people that cant drive and now everyone who takes the easy way across (like i've been doing all my life, at least since i started going around there on foot without adult supervision, say since 8) is subject to a good pat down (not an effective one, just a bit of rustling up it usually looks like) and a fat fine. There is a major hospital on one side of the Blvd and a large mall on the other. I've seen several hospital workers get ticketed just going to get some food at the mall. They usually have a police van sit there and wait for people to cross outside of the crosswalks. Just one example, whether big brother or easy money for the gubmint is the issue I don't care. It's wrong. Hopefully most of you don't have to deal with this sort of bullpuckey. All sorts of other nonsense being put up with by a lot of people for a lot of weak reasons to make the timid happy and to sate the power hungry. That's my line and im sticking to it. Sorry you got nimda, be sure to thank whomever you got it from (told stepmom to email all who emailed her in the 2 days b4 i got the the comp for the present, a week later one made her monthly AV update and reported having a few dozen copies) BTW feel free to email me whenever you want if you wanna hear my opinions on this or whatever, I'm happy to give them.

All, be well and fuck my friends for cancelling friday night plans last minute! =-)
-bill

[SSMV]

Tone, and most others, I was never trying to imply that any of you stated an arguement about outlawing cameras and I appologize if it came across that way.

Murph, I would try and argue why I think there should either be legistlation passed enforcring some sort of training regime or why the Feds should implement their own security, such as the ability to conduct proper background checks or actually sending them through a training regiment, etc; but I won't it seems you have an opinion, a rather odd one but one at that, but one that is not likely going to change. Therefore, I will take Sharky's recommendation and end this conversation.

------------------
"...America is a family...We've got to start remembering that no member of our family should be satisfied if any member of our American family is suffering or in need and we can do something about it."

[-Sparky-]

Not to be too obvious here, but how were these cameras on these busts working if [SELF CENSORED FOR OPSEC]?

(Anyone in the know should be able to put it together.)

Sure...a criminal will fail to use cameras if they are illegal just like they don't carry illegal weapons, and they don't sell drugs because it's illegal, and they don't kill people because that is illegal too. http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif

Outlawing cameras won't keep them out of the hands of the baddies.

And if you don't want your face associated with the bust, my advice would be to keep your balclava on once you hit the ground until you are back inside at the station.

And are you all parking at the station prior to the raid? Gee, that's not hard to figure out. Do your tags com back to you? Gee, not hard to figure out where you live and get a photo of our whole family.

Photo of you next to the dope for the paper? duh!

Judicial order to seal affidavits to prevent release of identifying info of CI's and UC's?? Order to seal court records for same reason?

As my old instructor used to say, "SWITCH ON!" which translates roughly to "GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR FOURTH POINT OF CONTACT!"

------------------
- Sparky ©2001 All rights reserved.

[Sharky]

Originally posted by ToneLoc3/144:
I would like to meet the person who can hit a concealed penhole camera with a pellet gun that far away. Great Idea.

In Tracy's defense, he did say shoot the LIGHTS out (if they are daycams at night using an artificial light source), not the camera lens.



------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Erick]

Tone-

If you're still monitoring this thread, can you contact me by e-mail please?

Thanks.

Erick

[Sharky]

Erick,

Tone's not on here as much as he has been but, I see him daily and will give him the word.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[ToneLoc3/144]

Erick,

Shot-out.

Tone

------------------
U.S.B.P
Don't Fight It Ese...