neck'ed

[DCH]

I've noticed teams from San Diego Sheriff's, Long Beach Police, Ontario PD, etc.. wear tactical vests without ballistic collars. Wouldn't teams be better-off optioning for the extra neck protection?

Currently, more vests are utilizing the 'cover plus' system of upper arm and neck yoke ballistics. So why are there still teams without at least the standard collar protection?

Thanks,
-DCH

[Sapper12B]

DCH,

While I can't speak for everyone, I can tell you why I didn't use a collar. I ran point for damn near five years, hi-lo stack method, and with a helmet, you simply cannot look up and around with a collar on. I also had the mindset that I was on the offensive, not defensive, therefore I was not counting on the vest or equipment to help me. I rarely used a shield on entry because I didn't want to react to a threat by hiding behind a shield. As far as the arm protection and other extras, to me, it just seems to add more crap to the vest to deal with. It diminishes your mobility, and on long ops when your staged for like 5 or 6 hours, that junk gets very heavy. I guess it's just a matter of giving up a little protection for performance. May sound like a dumb argument, but I have tried it both ways.

[HmtPD2]

Sapper is right on. My vest has a collar and I am about to hack it off with my knife!!! I cant look up without it pushing my helmet forward. It is also impossible to shoot in the prone position. When you really look at them, collars dont provide very much protection anyway.

[Swat1]

Our vests don't have collars, except for one guy and he is also ready to hack the thing off. I am glad we did not order collars, like Sapper and Hmt said, they just get in the way and do not provide that much protection.

On the other hand, the ballistic arm protection is definately worth the price. They do not interfere with movement, weapons manipulation or anything else that I can find. The ballistic arm protection also helps cover that gap all armor has in the shoulder area. Too many operator's have been killed by being shot in the shoulder. The two operator's killed in Georgia a few years ago, would probably have survived had they had the balllistic arm protection. Both operators were shot from the left side in the shoulders with buck shot. The shot penetrated the shoulder/arm went into the chest cavity and disrupted the lungs, heart and blood flow causing death.

- Something to think about.

Swat1*

[DCH]

Hmmm, seems the collars are getting in the way of the rear portion of the K-pots, especially when in the prone position.

However, some vests have sectional collars that are held rigid by snaps (ie; ABA LASDSEB, U.S. Armor SEBk9). They allow the operator to unsnap the rear section of the collar to lay flat against the vest and allow the K-pot free movement. This however defeats the purpose of the collar, as the operator would need to re-snap the collar for it to be effective. InterArmor has a collar that you can unzip and replace the std. kevlar with different shapes/sections.

IMHO, an operator shouldn't have to trade safety for functioning equipment. Maybe the solution is integrating Spectra weave onto the neck portion of the balaclava?, or keep the sectional collar design with elastic that allows the sections to jux back into its normal shape?

I think it's only a matter of time until the range-of-mobilty problem is resolved.

Thanks gents, good input.
-DCH

[Sapper12B]

SWAT,

Not raggin on ya bro, but I hate to look at situations like that in GA and say maybe if they had this gear or they went left instead of right, etc. I appreciate good gear and will use anything if it works. The business that we are in will have deaths and casualties no matter what you do. Hell, I use a piece of coat hanger on some entries, anything that will work. But all we can do is our best, use our experience, and train our asses off. Some things you just can't control. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

I have also heard of the "armhole" shot, but I can't think of any type of product out there that can help without giving up mobility, and like I said before I refuse to give up mobility or performance or speed. Shit, I may get drilled in the eye socket one day, but at least I'll be shootin' and movin'! Later bro..

[DCH]

Shit, I may get drilled in the eye socket one day, but at least I'll be shootin' and movin'! Later bro..[/B][/QUOTE]

..AND you'll have an extra shotshell holder.

[Sharky]

That "armhole shot" also occurred in Shreveport, LA back in the early 90's with fatal results. If I remember correctly it was a .380. You can do everything in the world right and still catch one in your own personal X-ring. Shit just happens.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Swat1]

Sapper,

That's what AAR's are all about. I purchase all of the reviews conducted by the NTOA and go over them in detail with our team to learn the fatal flaws and improve our chances of coming home. Of course, it's a dangerous business and we all know that. I can't tell you how many entries I have been on that we have just been plain lucky.

One time we hit a simple, tin can trailer. Stealthed to the door and the breacher, when breaching the door popped the center but the bad guy had put in bolts on the upper and lower portion of the door to defeat this.

We stood outside the trailer lined up along it WAY too long. We heard a single gunshot that was very muffled, and most of the team, including me, didn't put two and two together to make four. Upon entry we found the suspect laying in bed with a handgun in his right hand. Our point man was a nano-second from shooting him when the bad guys brain evacuated from the right side of his head. He shot himself. During the search, one AK-74, several SKS's and handguns were found with thousands upon thousands of rounds of ammo. A couple bursts along the side of the trailer and our whole team would have been at the very least, injured. There were several learning points there that I won't get into. You can bet we changed tactics after that, that's what AAR's are all about.

So I don't have any problem looking at a situation and asking - Is there a better tactic? Is there a piece of equipment that would have helped prevent that from happening? If so, let's do it, get it whatever.

I am certainly NOT monday morning quarterbacking tactical operations, trying to find fault or fix blame. We only look at them to learn something for ourselves and apply it if possible. Sometimes they did everything right and it wouldn't have mattered. Dangers of the business.

In regards to the ballistic arm protection, we use the Safariland Tac 6+ without collars with the arm covers. I have used the vest with and without the covers and I don't find any loss of mobility or movement. The arm covers will not protect you from all calibers, nothing will. However, if it will protect us from a quarter of what's out there it is worth it to us. Each team and each person is different. Go with what feels right for you.

Swat1*

P.S. I'm not raggin on you either bro, just saying, we have to learn from others trials, tribulations, mistakes and triumphs. It only makes us better.

[Sapper12B]

SWAT,

Sounds like you guys got your stuff togeher over there. I wish I had the patience to AAR those fatal scenarios myself. Something we do that has helped us in training is we get about 5 or 6 recruits from the academy, give them a sims gun, stick them in an abandoned house, and tell them to shoot at us. We then debrief them, and since they don't have any tac experience, they usually give us some good objective insight as to our tactics. We also video and have O/C in the house with us. We do this on full scenarios using negotiators, us, public works, etc. It's an eyeopener.

[HmtPD2]

Sapper...

Interesting you mentioned the scenario. We just had an HRT scenario simulating a formerly fired employee taking some secretaries hostage at his former job. We used 4 city secretaries, and and the asst city manager as the hostage taker. There were guidlines, but basically let him run with it.
He did some interesting things such as ask for body armor, a vehicle...and sent a hostage out to start the car. He even said he was going to send out a hostage with a message stating his seriousness. When she exited the door, he shot her in the leg (simulated). It was interesting to see what a normal person will do.
Of course when we assaulted him he about crapped his pants. It was good to see that he actually would have been killed prior to shooting a hostage.

[Sapper12B]

Hemet,

I feel that is the best training, get people that do odd shit like regular folks do. Also, whenever we used our own guys to simulate a scenario, they would know what to expect and it would turn into a big f*ckin' argument. We ( Kansas City Police) did a full blown scenario every quarter involving a lot of folks, it ususally lasted all day, and was always insightful. On one of these quarterly excercises, we were in the hood training and a real idiot decided to pull a knife on a uniformed officer doing perimeter for us. Idiot got beanbagged and me and two other TAC officers wrestled the moron down. So much for training.

As for your HR exercise, we had a real one just like that in KC, in '99 I believe, at the Penn Tower office complex. You can check the kcstar.com archive, this stuff really happens, even in a little cow town like KC.

[jnc36rcpd]

Glad to hear you're using perimeter security on your field exercises, Sapper. This has become a hot topic among instructors after the blue-on-blues (Canada, Texas) in active shooter training. I'm a strong advocate of an assigned "gatekeeper" who has no training responsiblity providing access control.

HmtPD, I saw "Spy Game" the other day. The CIA covert ops guy played by Brad Pitt comes from your town. The character's not based on you, is he?

Be safe, guys.

[mdb23]

Sapper12B,

I vivdly remember both of those incidents. As a matter of fact. my dumb ass was on the way to Tuxall on the day of the Penn Tower deal (by way of SW Trafficway). I remember having a "what the f*ck" moment when I saw all of the units parked in the area.

Yep, for a cow town we get to see some very odd things.

mdb23

[This message has been edited by mdb23 (edited 11-27-2001).]

[HmtPD2]

jnc36....

Well the secrets out. I told Brad I wouldnt tell. Yes, the movie is based on my life. Hollywood had to tone it down a bit from the real life version...said people wouldnt believe it. There was also some trouble finding a leading man with my physical features. Seems most actors arent as...well...blessed as I am.

[Sapper12B]

Hey Mike,

How is NPD? Don't sell yourself short up there, I was literally getting out of the PeaceKeeper on an OP100, moving to the house quickly as we were entry that night, when a district officer popped a guy, DRT. Stuff happens up there, watch your 6, lots of complacency there.