Pro-Tec Helmets

[HmtPD2]

Does anyone out there on SWAT use the Pro-Tec helmets for instead of the Kevlar helmet. I currently use the Kevlar, along with just about every other team I see. I used the Pro -Tec briefly while in Security Forces, but the CO didnt like them. We only had them about 4 days so I dont have much time with them.
Do any of you not wear helmets at all? Our team makes helmets optional, but we all wear them.
I spent four years in the grunts, and saw the Kevlar wasnt real effective against rounds at all.
Anyone with any experience with them, LE or military jump in.

[Sapper12B]

Hemet,

We took 3 K-Pots out to the range one day. Shot with .40, 9mm, 12 guage, .223, .308 at 20 feet using publicly available ammo. As predicted, the helmet stopped the pistol and shotgun stuff, the rifle stuff cut right through. These were the standard military issue Kevlars. I t&e'd some Spectras with the huge (and outrageously heavy) clear ballitic face shield, hated it. I guess the neck'd thread kind of answers this one too.

[Sapper12B]

Also, I never saw the use for Pro-Tecs, you should always train how you fight.

[Tracy]

We used Pro-Tecs extensively. Our reasoning to use them instead of the K-Pots was:

1. Impact injuries were more likely than ballistic. I can attest to this personally.

2. No brim on the pro-tec helmets, much better visability.

I understand that there's a kevlar version of the pro-tec helmet now.
The best, IMHO, helmet is the Navy/Marine Airedale helmet. We got some of those with head piece replaced with kevlar. The integrated earmuffs and mic system were a godsend. We shot 500-1500 rounds a week, plus demo charges up the wazoo, and hearing protection was a very high priority with us. Those foam ear plugs only take 30db off the noise spike.

[Sapper12B]

Tracy,

How heavy was that airdale helmet? I would have welcomed the thing just for the ear protection alone! As for the mic, i never used one that was worth a sh*t! We always ended up just using the standard PTT mics w/earpiece. Besudes that, on entry I never used the radio, the SGT used it to talk to the CP to keep chatter down. Not much needed to talk about while clearing...

All The Way

[Tracy]

Originally posted by Sapper12B:
Tracy,

How heavy was that airdale helmet? I would have welcomed the thing just for the ear protection alone! As for the mic, i never used one that was worth a sh*t! We always ended up just using the standard PTT mics w/earpiece. Besudes that, on entry I never used the radio, the SGT used it to talk to the CP to keep chatter down. Not much needed to talk about while clearing...

All The Way

The Airedale helmet weighed slightly more than the old steel pot. If you got one with new spring steel bands to press the ears together, it could make you feel like zit being popped...

Regarding the mics, whisper mics were the best; but we had a full-time commo repair guy that kept the issue mics working as necessary.

One of our pre-combat checks was to stand in a circle and each assaulter would transmit his call sign while the others gave a thumbs-up if they heard him. After the check, all personnel, except my team leaders and I, would rotate the booms out of the way so they could listen and do their job.

The really big problem with ear protection is moving to the entry point while trying to be quiet. We used to cock the helmet up on one side (without the boom) so we could hear in the immediate area. This is where snipers are a godsend, because they can act as your eyes and ears while you're focusing on not tripping and other amusing things...

[Sapper12B]

Tracy,

Maybe I misunderstood, but you guys moved to stage with ear protection on? I thought you were just talking about training. During ops, we didn't use any ear protection. To be honest, I have fired my weapon on two separate occasions and I didn't have any NOTICEABLE hearing loss at the time. Maybe my juice was up after shooting, but I sure could hear a pin drop after it was over. We used an earplug type earpiece in one ear, nothing in the other, with a balaclava covering the head.
As for explosive entry, my department was too chickensh*t to use it, even after I showed them all of the proper calculations, materials, and live fire demonstration tapes. I have a video tape of a search warrant we executed on a m/c gang where they had reinforced the door; it took us 7 minutes to gain entry, luckily nobody was home. Perfect time for EE, but no one would listen except our lawyers.
Guess that's why we never had the opportunity to T&E those go-fast helmets you used.

[Tracy]

Originally posted by Sapper12B:
Tracy,
Maybe I misunderstood, but you guys moved to stage with ear protection on? I thought you were just talking about training. During ops, we didn't use any ear protection...



We trained the way we fought, and vice versa. Even with the hearing protection, I wound up with tinitis. In the last place I fought, Mogadishu, I wore yellow ear plugs almost full time. The nice thing about hearing protection is pulling them off during the post-assault phase; because you REALLY need acute hearing and eyesight to pick up any possible threats you missed during assault. Post-assault phase can be more dangerous than the assault.

Another 'benefit' of hearing protection is when you're using offensive grenades inside the structure to regain tactical initiative. We're not as affected by the blast as others. Sometimes we're in the room when we light them off. One operation we 'banged' every single room.

Keep in mind, when we go in it's pretty much a given someone going to resist us. So we generate as much shock effect we can; and the lawyers talk to us after the job (forgiveness vs. permission).

While I liked the Airedale, given my tinitus, one combination many folks used was an custom earpiece in the non-shooting ear, foam in the other, and a whisper mic.

50% of our force ALWAYS pulled security, so we had a higher ratio of "guardian angels" looking out for us; so the one-ear approach worked in our case.

Did that clear up my response a little better?

[Sapper12B]

Tracy,

The most I banged on an entry was 3; one for each level. Every room must have gotten annoying! ( And the extra weight!) We use 2 rings of perimeter security, but they are more or less in a "support" mode with long guns, but depending on the op, they may switch to shotguns for up close work. As for getting banged in the room, we do that in training just to remind ourselves what it's like, but on an op, sh*t that must have sucked!
I can see where the helmet and plugs helped, but with your tinitus, do you see any advantage?

Later

[murphquake]

OOC, are any of you looking at the MICH helmets (Gallet TC2000)? Brad at lighfighter.com just started carrying them, and they have a pretty good reputation from what i've seen. Pat Rogers had an article which briefly mentioned them in SWAT a month or two back. SOCOM has a whole system of commo stuff to go with them inc. hearing protection/enhancement. not cheap tho. (especially the commo stuff, but when was it...) HTH
-bill

[Tracy]

Originally posted by Sapper12B:
Tracy,
...I can see where the helmet and plugs helped, but with your tinitus, do you see any advantage?

Later

I tried to e-mail you, but your mail server seems to be down. My messages are getting bounced.

Helmets, IMHO, are a necessary part of the entry kit; for the impact protection. So are knee and elbow pads.

[Sapper12B]

Roger that Tracy,

Maybe I'm just a puss, but I can't find a helmet that is comfy for me.But then again, I haven't tried them all either. Did you guys ever use ballistic shields? We had 3 sizes, the big Body Bunker, a 2'x3', and a little 1'x2'.

[Sapper12B]

Tracy,

If you are still on, fire for effect, I'm back up.

All The Way

[Tracy]

Originally posted by Sapper12B:
Roger that Tracy,

Maybe I'm just a puss, but I can't find a helmet that is comfy for me.But then again, I haven't tried them all either. Did you guys ever use ballistic shields? We had 3 sizes, the big Body Bunker, a 2'x3', and a little 1'x2'.

I feel your pain... I have a 7-5/8 hat size, so nuthin' in the inventory fits my melon head.

Regarding shields, ahem, HELL NO! Shields are a defensive measure, entries are offensive. I think they get in way more than they're worth in protection. I did see one tactical unit use them on the outside of houses they stacked on; just to avoid rounds coming through the wall. Now that was pretty clever.

I'll shoot you another e-mail...

[Sapper12B]

Tracy,

I usually shielded up to the stage point, then I left it 'till I needed it. On barricades, I left it in the first room I cleared for later use on open stairwells, attic holes, etc. I fully agree with the defensive thing; I argued with my team SGT to not even bring it, he wanted it in my hand the whole way, thus the compromise. Liability and all....
On dynamics or HR, I went balls on, switched to the MP suppressed, and went for it, bangin' all the way!

[Sinister Dave]

Sapper, there's a version of the Armored Crewman's CVC that the Australian SASR used complete with comms. Nice setup. RBR made a helmet with the scalloped cutouts so you could wear active hearing protection headsets with comms.

The Pro-Tec started being used when the Army started doing aircraft take-downs. One guy going thru an entry beaned himself, knocked himself out cold. John F. broke out a black Pro-Tec, and the rest is history.

[Sapper12B]

Dave,

Could you mount or wear NVG's with that helmet?

I was doing a simulated 727 takedown with the FBI SWAT guys, and their point man was carrying a body bunker thru the aisles, with his pistol BEHIND the shield!

[Tracy]

Sapper and Sinister Dave:

I can't transmit to RoadRunner domains. I'm talking with the RR NOCs and they're stumped. We think the problem is on their end, because we can transmit to anyone else on the planet. They say their e-mail server is perfect.

Sometimes, I can reply to a message, but can't send a new one. I think they firewalled us for some odd reason...

[Sinister Dave]

Sapper, I can't see why not. We put the AN/PVS-14 brackets on damned near everything.

Body Bunker: solution to the problem of not being aggressive enough. Not rifle proof. By using one (except for maybe as a breaching charge shield to protect from slag and frag from metal sheath FLSC) I don't get it.

[Sapper12B]

Dave,

On barricades, the bad guys know we're coming, so when moving to stage up I liked the bunker. On search warrants, under-cover officer extractions, or HR we were very dynamic and the shields were left in the PK. However, if we were dynamic and it turned into a barricade (brass didn't want us being too aggresive ie; liability), we retrieved the shields. I also liked the BB when I was clearing attics, I would shove the thing up, mirror, then go up using the BB to cover my six while I went up. BB's were also good in school, office building, mall scenarios when the likelihood of escorting hostages was high; we could use the BB to cover them.
As for explosive entry, I used the det-cord water bottle charge so we didn't have much fragmentation.

Later bro!

[Sapper12B]

By the way, the comment about the FBI guy carrying the BB on the 727.... I was going to ask him how he would fire his weapon effectively with it behind the shield, or if he was going to move it around and to the front of the shield to engage, but since they were hosting the training, I kept my cake-hole shut.;-)

[Sabre07]

We use the bunker to provide cover while moving to the entry point on HRWS or HR. We dump it at the entry point and if it is needed, we know where it is. We also leave or medics there and they can also deliver it if necessary. I agree the shield can get in the way on certain OPS. Some teams are just queer for 'em for some reason. Some team commanders want to "see that gear I just paid for". Which is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard a LT say...maybe not the stupidest... there was the star cluster incident at the NTC.