VA testing drugs on war veterans

[GST]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jun/17/va-testing-drugs-on-war-veterans/

WTF is wrong with the VA?!!! To compound PTSD with a drug that causes possible hallucinations and suicidal thoughts is akin to placing a match on a fuse. Should be fucking criminal. :mad:

[Red Flag 1]

There are many facilities that persue treatments that are new approaches to medical problems. Yes the VA does this. So does UVA; TV ads call for volunteers for testing on new drugs @ UVA every month in the C'ville area.

Chantix has been associated with behavioral side effects that are now being warned about by the FDA. I have had personal experience with Chantix, and found it to be very usefull in smoking cessation. The side effect most noticed was GI in nature ( stomach distress). Side effects stopped when I stopped taking Chantix. As for behavioral issues...well aside from a few outbursts here I guess I'm ok ( if I threatened to kill anyone, it was the drug talking).:D:D One FDA report I read went so far as to say that suicidal thoughts occured even after patients had stopped Chantix and resumed smoking. Etiology of all this is unclear.

As for the VA using Vets as " lab animals", I just don't see that as having happened here. As I mentioned above, civillian facilities do the same thing with civillians.

If you are taking Chantix, and have concerns, tell the doc who perscribed the drug for you.

RF 1

[Ghettomedic]

I have tried Chantix on two occasions to quit smoking. Both times within about 8 days of starting the medication I noticed mood changes that are inline with the behavioral FDA warnings.

This was before the FDA warning came out. The change was so prominent that my wife noticed them over the phone and told me I should stop taking them. The mood swings disappeared within a day after Istopped taking the medication both times.

Just from personal experience with this medication I can’t see how giving this to vet’s with PTSD makes any sense what so ever.

[Red Flag 1]

I am not sure of the percentage of folks who have any psych symptoms, or the severity of same with Chantix. There is a risk:benefit ratio that patient and doctor need to talk about. The expense of smoking is tremendous, of that there is no doubt. This includes financial as well as health costs. For some, Chantix could well be a great option.

That having been said; if you want to stop smoking, any help is better than none. If you don't want to stop smoking, no help is of value, be honest with yourself!. For some struggleing with the desire to stop, Chantix "side effects" can be convenient. IMHO focus in on the desire to stop, you may or may not be there yet. Talk with your doc about Chantix to see if it is a pharmacutical aid that is right for you. Work together with Chantix and other aids to get you where you need to be. Chantix is still on the market. I personally know of no-one who has had trouble with Chantix except for GI distress.

This is NOT directed at Ghettomedic:o. It took me two tries with Chantix.

I'd like this to be more of an exploration of the VA News article than a "stop smoking thread". Wrong place for this thread to go IMHO. Perhaps a SOF Med thread or pm me.

RF 1

[OldSwabbie]

Careful with that stuff. My wife took it for about a month and it tore her up. She was throwing up like crazy, headaches, moody... she didnt want to smoke because she felt so shitty.

OldSwabbie

[BOFH]

I never had any real problems with Chantix. Took it for a month...I would get a little stomach upset for 30 minutes or so after taking the pill, but that was about it. I had no changes in mood or anything of the sort. On the other hand, it didn't help much at all with the desire to smoke.

[OldSwabbie]

I never had any real problems with Chantix..

So you're telling us that they never found the bodies? :D

LOL

OldSwabbie

[DY]

Any medication in existence is going to have a significant number of varying judgments for and against it, particularly in early stages of release. Hell, the American Medical Association can't even explain why Motrin works on one person and not on another. But how many soldiers will make comments about military docs when they say, "Alright troop, try Naprocin instead." Maybe I'm overgeneralizing.

I certainly don't sing high praise for the VA. But Elliott and his severe PTSD and chronic chain smoking is trying to get on with his life. He's a pretty desperate guy. I'd be pissed too, if I were in his shoes. And the VA is pretty desperate too now, when it comes to PTSD. But I have doubts that they are in cahoots with corporate pharmacopeia, except maybe in a Clancy novel. Lets face it, VA doesn't demonstrate that kind of competence.

I'm willing to bet some doc was feeling Elliott's desperation, recognized some tenacity inside of the guy and decided it was worth a try. The drug is getting better ratings in success than it is failure. And smoking is NOT helping Elliott's PTSD. As was stated, FDA didn't get the word out concerning the extent of psychotic risk. So how many folks here jumped on the mefloquine bandwagon in spite or warnings that you might go home and lose all neurological coordination or worse, kill your family? Fuck it, 1 chance in a million is better than malaria, right?

Elliott, I got a Buck on ya man.

[Ghettomedic]

My only concern with putting vet’s on it is that PTSD in itself in some cases places the vet at a higher risk for suicide than the general populous. Add the small possibility of the medication affecting the individual with PTSD as it did me and you just increase the risk. I was ready to take a potato peeler to people and lawn dart off of a tall building while I was on it.

I would hope the VA has a good program in place to monitor the patients, preferably on a daily basis even if it is by phone just to get a snapshot of the pt’s mental state to determine the risk to the patient. Until the risks are known or until you can be sure as a provider that you’re not pushing the guy farther off the cliff with a pill I don’t see how they couldn’t monitor these guys on a tight schedule.

Red Flag 1- I didn’t take it as being directed at me but thanks for putting it out there in case I did:D Two tries and still smoking:(

[Expatmedic]

I will reserve judgement until more information comes to light.

Using ONLY Mr. Elliots case as an example, it could be he was working closely with his health care provider and THEY both agreed that partaking in this study was a last resort. Allbeit a very slippery slope indeed.

A health care provider CANNOT force a patient to do jack shit. A competant and ETHICAL provider will present ALL information regarding the chosen topic and the PATIENT decides. The above does not include Psych holds, court orders and minors.

It is also possible that Mr. Elliot did not understand what was going to and might transpire during the study.

Then again if his health care provider did not give him all of the information then he's an incompetant fuck.

[rgrjoe175]

He was also compensated for taking it as part of a clinical study.

Big boy rules apply with health care as well.

JP

[Expatmedic]

He was also compensated for taking it as part of a clinical study.

Big boy rules apply with health care as well.

JP

Agreed. And I would expect Informed Consent to be obtained. That said there are many factors we may never know about.

I would hope that the provider would protect his or her patient and not allow them to participate if they could not give Informed consent.

Informed Consent is very important in the patient/provider relationship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informed_consent

[DY]

My only concern with putting vet’s on it is that PTSD in itself in some cases places the vet at a higher risk for suicide than the general populous. Absolutely, I wouldn't argue against your experience or word of caution. According to the article, there was a failure to get the message from FDA to VA to the patient before he took a ride on the thin blue line. IIRC there was a lag of two weeks? That is negligent.

But this type of occurance is not exclusive to VA. There are 'perfectly respectable' family doctors that hand out schedule II narcotics from pez dispensers; Millions of Americans overly reliant on their pain meds, mood enhancers, antacids, diet supplements, etc, without the proper therapeutic modalities that should go along with them. As a whole, doctor and patient are equally responsible. It's a societal problem, not exclusive to VA.

At the same time, I see how this particular case raises emotion in... I will say it... our kind. We feel that our comrades deserve better treatment. And we are right. Unfortunately, America doesn't support our view by default.

Now that the information is out on Chantix, failure to counsel and establish proactive monitoring would be negligent. And maybe the doctor didn't have enough empirical knowledge to be working with severe PTSD patients. So there are a lot of possibilities. My point is, systematic errors are commonplace in western medicine at large. And unfortunately, until private sector starts ripping into PTSD with loads of cash, the VA is what these guys have to work with.

[DY]

He was also compensated for taking it as part of a clinical study.

Big boy rules apply with health care as well.

JP Holy shit, Joe. He shoulda got a lawyer before he took the thirty bucks. lmao.

[rgrjoe175]

Holy shit, Joe. He shoulda got a lawyer before he took the thirty bucks. lmao.

"Mr. Elliott(snippet) opting to collect $30 a month for enrolling in the clinical trial because he needed cash as he returned to school."

Like I said big boy rules.... "because he needed the cash" I doubt he even considered "why the fuck they would pay him to take it." or "what can happen to me"... he probably just saw the $ signs.

Having worked in the pharmaceutical industry for many years, I am familiar with clinical trials.

I am sure the average person has no clue as to how drug companies go about getting approval from the FDA to market drugs. How many folks don't even read the drug interactions or the possible side effects... I bet most folks dont know that the side effects reported are based on what folks said happened to them that participated in the clinical trial.... etc etc etc....

Back to big boy rules...:D

How do folks think that drugs utilized in the treatment of PTSD were tested???

That would be compensated clinical trials.

So folks unbunch your panties and accept that without those trials...nothing would be approved.....

JP

[Greenhat]

How do folks think that drugs utilized in the treatment of PTSD were tested???

That would be compensated clinical trials.

So folks unbunch your panties and accept that without those trials...nothing would be approved.....

JP


BINGO!!

[Inspector Cluseo]

"What medications do you currently take"

"The little blue ones sir"

Sheeesh

[Red Flag 1]

My point in responding to this thread has nothing to do with Chantix, smoking or PTSD. It has everything to do with the VA Health Care system.

The VA Health care system has a huge patient care responsibility. Though I interviewed for a provider position, I do not, nor have I ever worked the VA Health care system. I have never been a patient in the VA Health care system. As a retired veteran, I am within the potential patient population. I do have an intrest in the care provided by the VA Health care system.

All that having been said, the "news" article that started this thread was poorly researched, and unjustly accusing! The story points a dirty finger at the VA and leaves the VA looking guilty of shoddy practice. While it will never happen, the VA could bring suit and likely win. The VA has done nothing that a multitude of civillian facilities have already done, and continue to do. This "news" article never mentions that, it takes a very cheap shot at the VA.

In the end, the VA gets a black eye, while the media crosses their arms over their chests and look smug! Veterans that are eligible for care take this "news" and unjustified mistrust with them to their next visit for care at the VA. The great damage this "news " inflicts is to add fear to veterans seeking deserved care at the VA. This "news" gets in the way of patient care. The professionals that I know working with the VA are excellent, caring providers of patient care. They work very hard to bring quality care for their patients.

RF 1

ps: don't get me started!:mad:

[DY]

Redflag. I'm with you. Most of the horror stories I hear about have to do with administration, money, avoidance of long term care. Saying the whole system is evil is like saying everyone from Louisiana is crooked. :D In life, I've learned that any situation is made worse by preconceived notions. If you can't be accurate with your fires, then don't shoot.

How do folks think that drugs utilized in the treatment of PTSD were tested??? That would be compensated clinical trials. So folks unbunch your panties and accept that without those trials...nothing would be approved..... When it comes to extreme cases of trial and error, Navy Dive tables come to mind... Or maybe those guys in Key West were just trying to scare us.

[OldSwabbie]

Honestly? I can't complain and won't complaint about my treatment at the VA. I have been treated at 2 VA locations. First at the VA hospital Bay Pines (St Pete), and now at the VA Outpatient In Greenville. They have given me great treatment every single time.

The VA get whalloped with some big sticks, but they have a heck of alot to do with a shrinking budget.


OldSwabbie

[Red Flag 1]

23 June 2008 issue of The Air Force Times is reporting: " a bill that has passed in committee " bringing increased funding for the VA budget. Some of the increases include: funding to add 1,400 VA claims processers in addittion to the 703 hires already approved; $47.7 billion in "discretionary funding for the VA; $3.8 billion for specialty mental health, $584 million in substance abuse programs; $11 million for VA's IG; $200 million in funds to increase fee-based care for vets where VA does not offer services; $568 million to increase VA health care enrollment of middle-income vets; $300 million to address maintenance back logs @ VA Med facilities; $116 million to increase avalibility of new-generation prosthetics; $58 million to restore cut made by VA for medical research in trauma, mental health and other areas; $50 million to increase beneficiary travel reimbursment from $.28.5/ mile to $.37/ mile; and $40 million for more case workers and medical services for homeless vets.

Sounds like a pretty good package. The VA has need this support from congerss for some time. Glad to see it moving ahead!!

RF 1