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iraqgunz
20 June 2008, 02:43
I find this very interesting. What I find really disturbing is the Pentagon trying to keep this quiet. I guess I find it hard to understand why people continue to try and bury information instead of saying "hey we probably fucked up" and we need to make it right.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080620/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_china_pow_revelation;_ylt=Ak3gHmVC2XFXzQ0NaUYem QJg.3QA


WASHINGTON - After decades of denials, the Chinese have acknowledged burying an American prisoner of war in China, telling the U.S. that a teenage soldier captured in the Korean War died a week after he "became mentally ill," according to documents provided to The Associated Press.

China had long insisted that all POW questions were answered at the conclusion of the war in 1953 and that no Americans were moved to Chinese territory from North Korea. The little-known case of Army Sgt. Richard G. Desautels, of Shoreham, Vt., opens another chapter in this story and raises the possibility that new details concerning the fate of other POWs may eventually surface.

Chinese authorities gave Pentagon officials intriguing new details about Desautels in a March 2003 meeting in Beijing, saying they had found "a complete record of 9-10 pages" in classified archives.

Until now, this information had been kept quiet; a Pentagon spokesman said it was intended only for Desautels' family members. The details were provided to Desautels' brother, Rolland, who passed them to a POW-MIA advocacy group, the National Alliance of Families, which gave them to AP this week.

In a telephone interview Thursday, the brother said he did not follow up on the information he got in 2003 because he did not believe it. He was not aware it marked the first time China had acknowledged taking a U.S. POW from North Korea into Chinese territory or burying an American there.

Two months after the March 2003 meeting, the Pentagon office responsible for POW-MIA issues sent Rolland Desautels a brief written summary of what a Chinese army official had related about the case.

"According to the Chinese, Sgt. Desautels became mentally ill on April 22, 1953, and died on April 29, 1953," the summary said. It added that he had been buried in a Chinese cemetery but the grave was moved during a construction project "and there is no record of where Desautels' remains were reinterred."

The reported circumstance of Desautels' death — sudden mental illness — may sound improbable. But the key revelation — that he was taken from North Korea to a city in northeastern China and then buried — matches long-held U.S. suspicions about China's handling, or mishandling, of American POWs during and after the war.

It raises the possibility that wartime Chinese records could shed light on the fate of other U.S. captives who were known to be held in Chinese-run POW camps but did not return when the fighting ended in 1953.

And it appears to undercut the Pentagon's public stance that China returned all POWs it held inside China. The Pentagon has focused more on the related issue of China's management of POW camps inside North Korea during the war, which Chinese troops entered in the fall of 1950 on North Korea's side.

Desautels' reported burial site — the city of Shenyang, formerly known as Mukden — is interesting because it is far from the North Korean border and was often cited in declassified U.S. intelligence reports as the site of one or more prisons holding hundreds of American POWs from Korea. Some U.S. reports referred to Mukden as a possible transshipment point for POWs headed to Russia.

Desautels was an 18-year old corporal, a member of A Company, 2nd Engineer Battalion, 2nd Infantry Division, when his unit encountered a swarming Chinese assault near Kunu-ri, North Korea, on Dec. 1, 1950. According to a Pentagon account, Desautels and his fellow captives were marched north to a POW compound known as Camp 5, near Pyoktong, on the North Korean side of the border with China.

Subsequent events are a bit fuzzy, but Desautels was moved among prison camps and apparently was used by the Chinese army as a truck driver. A number of U.S. POWs told American interrogators after their release from captivity that they had seen Desautels alive and well in Camp 5.

One who said he spent four months with Desautels said that in March 1952 Desautels said that if he should disappear, others should make inquiries with the proper military authorities. Numerous returned POWs said Desautels had spent several months inside China before being returned to Camp 5 in 1952.

Rolland Desautels, 81, recalls his older brother as "a strong character who came off the farm," enlisted in the Army at age 17 and was stationed at Fort Lewis, Wash., before being shipped to Korea in August 1950, two months after the war began with North Korea's invasion of the South.

The Pentagon has taken an interest in the Desautels case for many years. A June 1998 Pentagon cable to the U.S. Embassy in Beijing said the case was one of several on which China should be pushed to provide answers, that "we believe the Chinese should be able to account for these individuals."

Now it turns out that China did provide an accounting, although it is incomplete and was kept under wraps for five years.

Larry Greer, a spokesman for the POW-MIA office at the Pentagon, said Thursday that although U.S. officials asked to see the 9-10 page file on Desautels, China has yet to provide it or additional information.

Mark Sauter, an author and researcher on the subject of POWs from the Korean War, said in an interview that Beijing authorities are to be commended for finally providing useful information.

"The case of Sgt. Desautels has been a focal point of a six-decade cover-up by the Chinese government," Sauter said. "This is the first crack in the dike. From what we can tell, the Pentagon has not aggressively followed up, either on the Desautels case or those of hundreds of other Americans for whom the Chinese should be able to account."

American officials believed from the earliest days of the armistice that concluded the Korean War without a formal peace treaty in July 1953 that the Chinese and North Koreans withheld a number of U.S. POWs, possibly in retaliation for U.S. refusal to repatriate those Chinese and North Korean POWs who chose not to be returned to their home country out of fear of retribution.

Gen. Mark W. Clark, the American commander of U.S.-led forces during the final stages of the Korean War, wrote in a 1954 account that "we had solid evidence" that hundreds of captive Americans were held back by the Chinese and North Koreans, possibly as leverage to gain a China seat on the U.N. Security Council.

Over time, however, U.S. officials muted their concerns, while periodically pressing the Chinese in private. Publicly, the Pentagon's stance today is that China returned all the U.S. POWs it held.

"Some U.S. POWs spent time across the (Yalu) river in Manchuria, but to the best of our knowledge, all have returned," the Pentagon's POW/MIA office says in a summary of wartime POW camps.

Greenhat
20 June 2008, 02:51
Gen. Mark W. Clark, the American commander of U.S.-led forces during the final stages of the Korean War, wrote in a 1954 account that "we had solid evidence" that hundreds of captive Americans were held back by the Chinese and North Koreans, possibly as leverage to gain a China seat on the U.N. Security Council.

Over time, however, U.S. officials muted their concerns, while periodically pressing the Chinese in private. Publicly, the Pentagon's stance today is that China returned all the U.S. POWs it held.

"Some U.S. POWs spent time across the (Yalu) river in Manchuria, but to the best of our knowledge, all have returned," the Pentagon's POW/MIA office says in a summary of wartime POW camps.


Sounds strikingly similar to the Vietnam POW situation and the official position as expounded on by Kissinger, McCann, Kerry and others.

Ole crusty bastard
20 June 2008, 04:17
Sounds strikingly similar to the Vietnam POW situation and the official position as expounded on by Kissinger, McCann, Kerry and others.Same thoughts here.

CAP MARINE
20 June 2008, 10:35
have a friend that was in a stalog in poland in WW2.when he was liberated he was sure glad it wasnt the russians,they had a tendency to keep POW's,if you get my drift.

jsmurphy
20 June 2008, 12:08
Same thoughts here.

Yep, very familiar.

HMdepperNavy
20 June 2008, 14:23
have a friend that was in a stalog in poland in WW2.when he was liberated he was sure glad it wasnt the russians,they had a tendency to keep POW's,if you get my drift.

Wow, the Russians would keep American POWs?

bobofthedesert
20 June 2008, 15:02
What do you figure the odds are that those very calculating Chinese are copping to this one as a 'recon' to check how we'd react to them admitting to everything we know they did anyway? :rolleyes:

Spinner
20 June 2008, 15:32
have a friend that was in a stalog in poland in WW2.when he was liberated he was sure glad it wasnt the russians,they had a tendency to keep POW's,if you get my drift.

It's my understanding that the Russians did "liberate" several stalags holding American POWs and transported them to Siberia. It's also alleged that Ike was well aware of this.

http://www.nationalalliance.org/wwii/wwii.htm

It's not just McCain and Kerry who let it slide. The supreme commander of all allied forces basically signed thousands of lives away at the end of the war. And for whatever reason, it's done nothing to diminish Eisenhower's stature throughout the intervening years.

Getting captured and maybe being left behind is just one more thing you have to consider when you're signing on the dotted line.

Parajuevos
20 June 2008, 15:47
Wow, the Russians would keep American POWs?


When Jimmy Doolittle led his famous raid over Tokyo, on April 18,1942 some of his crew landed in Russia and were interned. I believe that they escaped to Iran.

Later in the war, four B 29s were low on fuel and landed in Siberia. The crews were interred and although treated well, their planes were never returned.

The Soviets used one of the planes, copying it's structure, to build the TU 4, which eventually went into service too late for WW2, in 1949.

iraqgunz
20 June 2008, 15:59
I remember reading several accounts of the Russian "allies" doing this in WW2 so it doesn't come as a surprise.

Trip_Wire
20 June 2008, 16:15
Korean War Stats:

http://www.aiipowmia.com/koreacw/kwkia_menu.html


Note: UNACCOUNTED FOR (Bodies not identified/bodies not recovered)   8,176


PMKOR Database Reports

(Personnel Missing Korea)


http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/pmkor/statefiles.htm?State=all&Name=Entire%20database%20listing

Richman
21 June 2008, 03:28
The Soviets used one of the planes, copying it's structure, to build the TU 4, which eventually went into service too late for WW2, in 1949.

They copied it so well that the problems with the plane were copied as well.

ET1/ss nuke
23 June 2008, 16:18
Getting captured and maybe being left behind is just one more thing you have to consider when you're signing on the dotted line.

The Russkies still operate a Gulag system in Siberia, though it is not as enormous as it was 20 years ago. Even in the late 1990s, Russian emigrants to Israel were reporting sightings of Americans in Siberia who had survived the KAL-007 shootdown in the early 1980s north of Japan. The US government always asserted that there were no survivors, but in light of their stance on POWs in communist hands since 1945, who knows?

KidA
23 June 2008, 17:35
The US government always asserted that there were no survivors, but in light of their stance on POWs in communist hands since 1945, who knows?

Were I President I'd jail for the rest of their lives any US government or military employee who knew and covered up any information about POWs, after parading them in shackles down Pennsylvania Avenue to shame them.

Every last swinging cock one of them.

There should be nothing more important to the government of the United States than getting all of our POWs back. Nothing, and that includes hundreds of billions in trade, or another war. It's a matter of principle.

SOTB
23 June 2008, 19:09
It's a matter of principle.Yes it is. And when I am asked -- as occasionally happens -- if I feel so strongly about it that I would enter into war over it, including nuclear war, my answer is always the same -- YES.

At the same time, I believe it is unethical to not teach young Soldiers/Marines/Airmen/Sailors that if they are captured, we might not be inclined to get them back -- simply because of "national interests." And that should weigh heavily on their minds if they ever find themselves in a situation contemplating capture....

NightLandNav
24 June 2008, 03:23
The Russkies still operate a Gulag system in Siberia, though it is not as enormous as it was 20 years ago. Even in the late 1990s, Russian emigrants to Israel were reporting sightings of Americans in Siberia who had survived the KAL-007 shootdown in the early 1980s north of Japan. The US government always asserted that there were no survivors, but in light of their stance on POWs in communist hands since 1945, who knows?

Source(s)? I'd like to follow up on this one. I tried a Nexis search/Jerusalem Post, but I need to narrow it down.

Thank you.



Also, x2 KidA and SOTB.

Relentless should be the only word to describe our efforts to get personnel back home.

Offroad
24 June 2008, 04:59
NLN, I don't know if this will help but for what it's worth, try: rescue007.org.

The website has a lot of data and also contact info for an Israeli couple that may be the source your looking for. Hope it helps.

ET1/ss nuke
24 June 2008, 06:23
Source(s)? I'd like to follow up on this one. I tried a Nexis search/Jerusalem Post, but I need to narrow it down.


Not sure if it's the same one already listed by Offroad, but I just noticed that tidbit on a website maintained by the families of the people who were aboard the plane. Maybe the same site. I can't verify that the Israeli immigrants were telling the truth, only that they were telling that story.

SOTB
24 June 2008, 07:19
....in the late 1990s, Russian emigrants to Israel were reporting sightings of Americans in Siberia who had survived the KAL-007 shootdown in the early 1980s north of Japan....Sigh.

There are plenty of serious sightings and intel on the mistreatment of US POWs by the Russians to have to look to outright lunacy for information.

What would the Russians gain by secretly holding anyone except the flight crew? OK, on the flipside, what do they possibly lose if word gets out that they are holding someone secretly besides the flight crew? And even the flight crew -- with the possibility that they were part of a mission to penetrate Soviet airspace -- has no serious logic, when you begin to consider the value they would have had showing the crew's "confession" on television.

Silliness....

Husker19D30
24 June 2008, 08:38
Yes it is. And when I am asked -- as occasionally happens -- if I feel so strongly about it that I would enter into war over it, including nuclear war, my answer is always the same -- YES.

Men are not potatoes, if it's one, or one thousand you fight.

Greenhat
24 June 2008, 09:31
What would the Russians gain by secretly holding anyone except the flight crew? OK, on the flipside, what do they possibly lose if word gets out that they are holding someone secretly besides the flight crew? And even the flight crew -- with the possibility that they were part of a mission to penetrate Soviet airspace -- has no serious logic, when you begin to consider the value they would have had showing the crew's "confession" on television.

Very possibly correct. However, as I am currently reading the Mitrokhin Archive, one thing that is very evident is that the Soviets and Russians have an extraordinary capability for paranoia and belief in conspiracies. We may not see any sense to the Russians secretly holding survivors of KAL 007 (I think it is highly unlikely that anyone would have survived that flight anyway), but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have.

ET1/ss nuke
13 July 2008, 12:34
Very possibly correct. However, as I am currently reading the Mitrokhin Archive, one thing that is very evident is that the Soviets and Russians have an extraordinary capability for paranoia and belief in conspiracies. We may not see any sense to the Russians secretly holding survivors of KAL 007 (I think it is highly unlikely that anyone would have survived that flight anyway), but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have.

My point exactly. I don't know if anyone survived that event, I even doubt they did, but the Russkies went to an awful lot of trouble to hide something about the crash location, which is what raises so many suspicions. What they were hiding may have had absolutely nothing to do with the plane - say, a bottom-mounted sonar array, for example - and there may never have been any survivors or anything special about the plane, but the Russkies' actions inspired all the conspiracy theories. They were , at every level, so internally paranoid about what their superiors might do, or what another branch of their big five branches might do, or what the KGB might do, that lies and coverups happened all the time there as part of the normal modus operendi of everyday life. Sometimes fake coverups were generated just to see who would react to them. Outsiders like us who only glimpsed part of the game almost always came away with the idea that something was up, but we practically never knew what, really, and our own guesses and counteractions based on those guesses just made things more complicated. Even with the POW issue, if the KGB or the GRU or the Naval GRU had some of our boys, there is no guarantee that either of the other two of those groups would know about it; all three might deny having any Americans, but the two who denied truthfully would immediately suspect that one or both of the other two were lying and try to figure out the motivation for the lie and the possible benefits of exposing the lie. Stalin and Brezhnev kept a tight leash on them, as did Putin later, but Kruschev, Andropov, Gorbachev, and Yeltsin were never able to control the internal backstabbing among the three intelligence agencies, the five service branches, the KGB, and the Party secretariat. Even within the KGB there were problems between the border guards, intel, counterintel, state security, special security, and the black hats. All of that is how wild conspiracy theories like POWs still in Siberia or KAL007 survivors got started, but it is also how stories like those could actually have a grain of truth to them. More than likely, we'll never know.

LRS Guy
13 July 2008, 13:49
The communist's are notorious for keeping POWs. I have read that the North Vietnamese kept many French POWs long after the war. The Russians kept many German POWs after WWII. Hell the North Koreans even went so far as to kidnap Japanese civilians in the 1960s and bring them to NK.

Just another reason to kill a communist, everytime you get a chance.