Biomechanics of Running, Five Fingers Merged Thread [Archive] - SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network

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e5wsf

24 June 2008, 08:13

Anyone use them? Just bought a pair to see how they feel. Wondering if there is any downside to training (running/crossfit) with them.

http://xe6.xanga.com/0f6c8114d0c37185847598/b142581237.jpg
Not a pic of me

johncasey4

24 June 2008, 12:11

I wear them now almost all of the time. Being in the Teams, we (at least the guys in my platoon) would always want to run around bare foot and were always getting yelled at for it... We always wanted to be in pt shorts with no shirts and got yelled at for that too...

Anyways, I got my pair about a month ago and I do everything in them from run 400 M sprints to just about any Crossfit workout that doesn't involve jumpropes ( they sting a bit at high speed). Otherwise, like I said, all training in them when I have to wear shoes. If given the option I still go barefoot though.

There are a lot of really cool videos of guys running in rocky terrain in them, some others doing parkour, although that isn't really my scene.

Ranger5280

24 June 2008, 13:02

I've been checking them out for a couple months. There are guys running marathons in them. May have to buy a pair.

PatriotnMore

24 June 2008, 13:58

Anyways, I got my pair about a month ago and I do everything in them from run 400 M sprints to just about any Crossfit workout that doesn't involve jumpropes ( they sting a bit at high speed). Otherwise, like I said, all training in them when I have to wear shoes. If given the option I still go barefoot though.

My feet sweat alot, is that going to be an issue wearing these?
I guess one could cut out the toes on a pair of low socks, and tape around the balls of feet so they don't slide around.

There are a lot of really cool videos of guys running in rocky terrain in them, some others doing parkour, although that isn't really my scene.

How well do they hold up/last in a rocky environment?

GRIFFIN

24 June 2008, 14:32

Do they come in hetero?:D

BOFH

24 June 2008, 15:24

I'm definitely going to have to procure a pair of those for testing. They look comfortable as hell.

e5wsf

24 June 2008, 15:42

My feet sweat alot, is that going to be an issue wearing these?
I guess one could cut out the toes on a pair of low socks, and tape around the balls of feet so they don't slide around.

How well do they hold up/last in a rocky environment?
They fit very snug. Not tight. I ran a few miles through Central Park in them and they felt fine. My feet and calves are not used to it yet but it was a unique feeling.

Massgrunt

24 June 2008, 15:44

Are these endorsed by Ashida Kim? :D

e5wsf

24 June 2008, 15:47

Do they come in hetero?:D

No, but they come in ultra gay. :D

Ranger5280

24 June 2008, 16:00

http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/products_Flow.cfm

I like the Flow. They're suggested for Cold Weather Running, Light Trekking, Climbing, Bouldering, Canyoneering, Fitness Training, Martial Arts, Yoga, Pilates, Sailing, Boating, Kayaking, Canoeing, Surfing, Flats Fishing

BOFH

24 June 2008, 16:25

Anyone know the difference between the TC-1 "performance rubber," and the GM-50 "grip rubber," in the "Flow?"

poison

24 June 2008, 19:13

Easy to break toes in that, no? Oh, and make that 'uber-gay'. :D

Typhoon

24 June 2008, 22:14

Flats Fishing
My flats boots are a lot tougher than those. Somehow I don't think that'll stop the sharp pointy stuff from going through your feet...

The Five Fingers look comfortable, but I'd hesitate to wear them in the heat and anywhere you need serious cushion in the sole. I imagine that they'd be really good for beach running...

eltrane

24 June 2008, 22:25

Those would be an excellent addition to my gorilla suit.

skeeter8654

25 June 2008, 00:49

Wondering if there is any downside to training (running/crossfit) with them.

I specifically asked about these when I was at the Crossfit Run endurance cert. Brian Mackenzie, the ultra marathoner who runs the endurance cert said that he has two pairs and he highly recommends them. I run in racing flats right now, but I'm going to pick up a pair and give them a whirl.

e5wsf

25 June 2008, 01:14

I specifically asked about these when I was at the Crossfit Run endurance cert. Brian Mackenzie, the ultra marathoner who runs the endurance cert said that he has two pairs and he highly recommends them. I run in racing flats right now, but I'm going to pick up a pair and give them a whirl.

Good info. Thanks.

e5wsf

25 June 2008, 01:22

My flats boots are a lot tougher than those. Somehow I don't think that'll stop the sharp pointy stuff from going through your feet...

The Five Fingers look comfortable, but I'd hesitate to wear them in the heat and anywhere you need serious cushion in the sole. I imagine that they'd be really good for beach running...

They are not designed for the combat or construction zone. The heat is is fine. I bought the Flow in black, ran when it was 85ish with humidity and all was good. Over 100 degrees and there may be concern but I have no contact with that environment. BTW, when you run with those on people look at you like you're an alien. My calves and feet are very sore today. My NB's never leave me in this condition but the 5Fs made me run on the balls and mid sole of my feet. No heel first running. I felt fast and light on my feet. I am neither.

poison

25 June 2008, 02:06

Chirunning will be all the rage now.

Hey, someone had the forethought to make socks for these things.

http://www.killersocks.com/assets/images/products/Injinji/Injiniji-white-micro-fs.jpg

http://www.injinji.com/

BOFH

25 June 2008, 17:58

They are not designed for the combat or construction zone. The heat is is fine. I bought the Flow in black, ran when it was 85ish with humidity and all was good. Over 100 degrees and there may be concern but I have no contact with that environment. BTW, when you run with those on people look at you like you're an alien. My calves and feet are very sore today. My NB's never leave me in this condition but the 5Fs made me run on the balls and mid sole of my feet. No heel first running. I felt fast and light on my feet. I am neither.

I live in San Antonio, where we have 100º+ heat pretty routinely. As soon as my pair gets here, I'll let you know how they do in this kind of heat.

grappler

26 June 2008, 00:35

http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/products_Flow.cfm

Someone tell Frodo his shoes have been stolen!!:D

I know, I know, don't knock em' till you try em'. I was at Backwoods just last week when these things caught my eye. Then the hippie chick that works there comes over wearing the ones I'm holding and is telling me all about them when my cell phone rings and as soon as I hang up she starts in on about how bad cell phones are for the environment.

Typhoon

26 June 2008, 10:10

I live in San Antonio, where we have 100º+ heat pretty routinely. As soon as my pair gets here, I'll let you know how they do in this kind of heat.
I would be very interested to hear how they perform in your area, irishsquid...

BOFH

26 June 2008, 10:38

I ordered them yesterday (didn't know of any place in my area that would carry them...) so as soon as they come in, I'll let you know.

PocketKings

26 June 2008, 11:12

I wear Nike Frees which are supposed to simulate barefoot running. I'd get these too, but they make your feet look like a hobbitt.

BOFH

26 June 2008, 11:57

I used to use the nike free shoes...they were good, but not durable at all.

PocketKings

26 June 2008, 13:05

The newest versions are better, but still, they do have durability issues. Unfortunately, there's nothing better.

BOFH

26 June 2008, 13:40

I figure, I'm pretty funny-looking to start with. Ain't nothing ever going to change that, so I'll just embrace it and go with the hobbit shoes. If they hold up better than the nike frees, then I'm good to go.

PocketKings

26 June 2008, 16:28

:DWhatever works, Frodo.

BOFH

30 June 2008, 09:48

Ok...I had asked about the 2 compounds the sole is made of...I got an answer today from Vibram...

Hello,

TC1 compound is our benchmark compound for general slip-resistance with durability; GM50 compound is significantly more slip-resistant, emphasizing performance, and sacrificing a bit of durability.

Please let me know if this answers your question,

regards

Lawrence Anastasi

BOFH

11 July 2008, 10:06

Ok...my first report on these shoes. I've been wearing them pretty much constantly for about a week now. Only time I don't wear them is when I'm at work. Of course, they feel funny at first, but once you get used to them, they are comfortable as hell. I've noticed after a run I'm sore in places I didn't know I had before. They pretty much "force" a proper posture when running or walking. Now that I'm starting to get used to the "new" posture, all-in-all, I feel a lot better. My knees and back hurt less, if at all.

And, in answer to the question of how they hold up in the heat, we haven't had too many hot days since I got them, but we've had one or two, and I have not had any problems at all. They seem to hold up just fine. I got the "Flow," with the grey/camo color scheme. There. Now you have a review on them. I haven't tried crossfit in them yet, but I will, as soon as I can afford a gym membership somewhere they have a crossfit setup.

S3Project

17 July 2008, 02:38

I've had a pair since September or so. Had classics, didn't like them, got a pair of sprints instead, which I love.

I wear 'em all the time now, they're my primary "shoe" as well as "running shoe."

You have to be careful ramping up the mileage at first. I was sidelined for a while after some track intervals that left my pinkie toes hurt. Now I seem fine.

My only complaints: it's hard to get a great fit for all of your toes. Only of my pinkie-toe slots is smaller than the other, and if I wear them for hours and hours, the seam rubs against my toenail and can get painful. I have a pair of the injinji socks, as well, and approve of them.

-D

Outofcontrol

17 July 2008, 11:31

Good input S3. Tell us a little about yourself in the "First Post Goes Here" thread.

OOC, out

poison

18 July 2008, 02:09

I have a pair of the injinji socks, as well, and approve of them.

-D

It's not like you have a choice if you wear 5fingers. ;)

http://www.ajobinfinance.co.uk/vibram.jpg

+

http://www.alpinist.com/media/web07-08w/metolius-logo-sock.jpg

=

?????

e5wsf

18 July 2008, 11:29

I've worn them now on hot humid days (90/90) and they are still comfortable. Running in the things still cause me some grief and extended soreness. They are great on the boat. Crossfitting with them is fine. So far so good.
Edit to add: I wear them bare. No injinjis

Max Power

27 April 2009, 16:48

Just bought a pair of KSO's, finally got around to buying them.

Wearing them around the house for now, getting used to them for a few days before I start running in them. Need to grab some of the Injini socks, though.

Drew

27 April 2009, 17:25

My second toe is significantly longer than my big toe. I guess that rules these out for me - unless there is some stretch to the toe thingys?

Max Power

27 April 2009, 17:28

Not so much.

For example, my big toe is sized right and fits just right. However, the length of my toes tapers faster than the standard they used to make the shoes, so my small toe barely goes into the toe pocket. Hopefully it will work out. Anything smaller and my big toe would be in pain.

Horned Toad

27 April 2009, 18:16

BOFH

27 April 2009, 19:17

I have had mine now for quite some time, and love them. I mostly run in them on the beach when I go to SPI or Brownsville, but I wear them around most anytime I'm not at work...I also recently started wearing them for Crossfit...so far, so good...

dagger0824

2 May 2009, 11:24

They are not for areas that have lots of rocks. I tried doing a hike in a pair here and I just bruised up the bottoms of my feet. After about a mile the boots came out of the ruck. The trail was a mix of sand, gravel and baseball sized rocks. It was the bigger rocks that really suck. If you live somewhere with lots of grass I think they would be pretty useful.

With no disrespect intended at all, I live out in the country, and have tons of small rocks all around... And I've ran over them all.. It didn't hurt at all... I mean, sure I felt they were there, but no pain was experienced... Then again, I do sometimes walk barefoot over those rocks and so that may have calloused the bottoms of my feet? Not sure...

GPC

13 May 2009, 09:46

How are they for wide feet?I have a hard time just finding regular running shoes except for New Balance.Do they come in wide?

BOFH

13 May 2009, 11:22

How are they for wide feet?I have a hard time just finding regular running shoes except for New Balance.Do they come in wide?

I don't think so...they are all in European sizes, and I've never heard of any "wide," or any other modifier tacked onto EU size...I dunno for sure, though.

Carl Spackler

13 May 2009, 11:54

My feet are like leather. I NEVER wear shoes. I jus saw these in Sport Chalet here in SoCal. Looked at um and they seem kinda thin. Reading here I haven't heard how long they last for the 90 bucks.

BOFH

13 May 2009, 12:35

My feet are like leather. I NEVER wear shoes. I jus saw these in Sport Chalet here in SoCal. Looked at um and they seem kinda thin. Reading here I haven't heard how long they last for the 90 bucks.

I've had mine for...maybe 6 or 8 months...I wear them constantly, and thus far, they aren't really showing any signs of wear. Seems like they could last years, if taken care of properly...

Soot

13 May 2009, 13:19

My flats boots are a lot tougher than those. Somehow I don't think that'll stop the sharp pointy stuff from going through your feet...

Which boots do you wear? And where are you fishing?

I've been thinking about picking up a pair of these and was actually just discussing them with a guy on another forum yesterday (he doesn't use them for fishing).

I would use them 90% of the time fishing the back bays of NJ where the most I've really got to worry about is sea shells so I don't think they'd have a problem standing up to that.

My real concern is that the vaccum that occurs when you step in some muck would pull them off your feet.

Gunpoint

13 May 2009, 13:51

Running with them now for 2 months, 2 - 3 times a week. They are ripping on the outside pinkie toe area. Didn't really last long.

BOFH

13 May 2009, 14:19

Which boots do you wear? And where are you fishing?

I've been thinking about picking up a pair of these and was actually just discussing them with a guy on another forum yesterday (he doesn't use them for fishing).

I would use them 90% of the time fishing the back bays of NJ where the most I've really got to worry about is sea shells so I don't think they'd have a problem standing up to that.

My real concern is that the vaccum that occurs when you step in some muck would pull them off your feet.

I think the ones I got are called the "flow," and they ain't comin' off.

IronMike

22 June 2009, 16:27

How are they for wide feet?I have a hard time just finding regular running shoes except for New Balance.Do they come in wide?

I have the same problem. Brooks makes wide widths. I like the Adrenaline. I keep trying other brands, and come back to the Brooks. They're much lighter than the NBs.

Bomb kicker

4 October 2009, 09:07

If you are considering buying a pair, I would recommend writing the company and asking for their MIL/ discount pricing. They sent me an excel doc that lists them for about 20-30 bucks cheaper than the regularly listed online prices.

bugeater

14 October 2009, 00:59

Poison, good find. I have the Injinji toe socks, and won't run in anything else now.

Apparently the way my toes are, anytime I do runs over a couple miles, my toes rub together. Before, it meant blisters. With toe socks, I'm set. It does take awhile to get used to, but they're money. They're so money they don't even know it.

And five fingers? I JUST saw a girl with them at the gym a couple days ago, asked WTF she was wearing. She swears by them. Now I know some of you clowns are on board and have tried them out as well, I just may have to give them a shot. And Bomb Kicker, great call on MIL pricing!

Apparently it takes awhile to get used to running in them, and I was cautioned that the soles are thin so you have to be careful stepping on rocks etc to toughen your feet again. We're so used to shoes/boots that our poor feet have gotten soft. Barefoot as a kid we'd walk over most anything, right? Re-adjusting will be interesting.

JCasp

14 October 2009, 18:18

What about for heavier guys? Is the lack of padding a problem for any of you muscle/fat bound people?

okami1

23 November 2009, 18:04

I've noticed recently that a lot of the people with whom I talk about running experience either regular pain or injury as a part of their experience. I'm looking to start a thread about people's experiences with running injuries, how they recovered, and how they remained injury free. Specifically, what changed?

In my own running practice, I have consistently tried to listen to what my body is telling me when I run, paying meticulous attention to all the creaks and footfalls as I cover the distance, and taking notes on these observations at the end of the run. This has altered the biomechanics of my stride significantly, and I finally feel that I can run most distances confidently and without pain.

When I first started running, I guess I had the same type of stride as most beginners, that is, head back, shoulders back, hips back, long strides with a pronounced outside heel landing. I quickly discovered that this was not the way to run long distances, due to the fact that this stride is well suited for activities in which sprinting for short distances is needed. As I progressed in distance and time, I noticed that my stride length became much shorter, and I was no longer heel-striking. The danger in heel-striking lies in the way that the quadriceps muscle is designed to function, and in the oscillation induced in the knee when following this stride pattern.

The quadriceps muscle has one function; to straighten the leg. When we heel-strike with our foot landing forward of the vertical plane of the body, the quadriceps muscle is put in a compromising position. As we move forward, and the quad is attempting to straighten the leg, our momentum and stride are simultaneously acting in the opposite direction by the function of the hamstring's contraction, which pulls us through the stride. I think this is one of the major reasons for the frequency with which people sustain quadricep pulls and tears.

Also, the knee takes a beating in this same stride. As we land on the outside rear edge of our shoes, our knees track towards the outside of the leg. As we roll onto the foot, we roll back to the inside front edge of the shoe, causing the knee to track the opposite direction, towards the inside of the leg. Finally, we again roll our foot to the outside, tracking the knee again towards the outside, and push off with the outside front edge of the shoe. This oscillation of the knee joint is pronounced, and I think contributes to the knee pain and injury that many runners encounter. I'm willing to bet that many reading this will have a pronounced wear mark and deformation on the rear outer edges of their running shoes. Mine were terrible before I fixed it.

These are two examples of problems with what I have seen in a "standard" runner's stride. I have done a couple things to correct this tendency and my running has vastly improved as a result.

1. Pelvis Tilt- Most of the time we stand and run with our pelvis thrust backwards, meaning the lower portion of the pelvis is closer to the posterior plane of the body than the top. By consciously shifting the lower portion of the pelvis forward, we stack the spine, and a slight bend comes into the knee. This tilt also encourages our legs to move in a more pronounced back-forth motion, vice up-down, thereby reducing impact on our bodies as we take our strides. This has been HUGE in my running, and definitely has enabled me to run longer distances than I ever had been able to prior to making this change.

2. Mid-foot striking- What the pelvis tilt gives your stride is the ability to have your feet landing squarely beneath the vertical plane of your body, not landing in front of the body like in the heel-striking stride. This reduces impact on the knees and quads, and also has the effect of shortening the stride length, also reducing impact. With this shortened stride length, comes the ability to land on the entire length of the foot, and not just the heel. The oscillation of the knee is less pronounced, and with practice can be eliminated all together. A slight lean forward in your running posture will help you land mid-foot, and also helps to propel you forward by using gravity to your advantage. Cool trick at the end of a long run to keep going. The thing to get really good at, is getting your feet to land directly underneath your body as you run.

3. Iliopsoas muscle- The iliopsoas muscle is a large muscle which attaches at the lower back, and runs down to the inside of the pelvic girdle. If you are standing straight up, and bring your leg so your femur is at a 90 degree angle to your torso, you're using your iliopsoas to do so. Not only is this muscle stronger and more dynamic than your legs, but using it to run has promoted a profound settling of my body's core, allowing for a more coherent and sustainable stride. Coupled with the pelvis tilt, the mid-foot strike, and a slight lean, using the iliopsoas muscle as one of the primary muscles being used to propel you forward can induce a stability and relaxation into the stride that can keep you going for longer distances. It also helps avoid a lot of the leg strain and fatigue I have heard so many runners talk about.

These are just a few observations; my running has progressed to the point where I have gotten rid of all motion-control, stability padded, thick-soled running shoes, and I now run exclusively in vibram five-fingers. If you haven't seen them, you will laugh when you do. Although people may laugh, I am basically running in bare feet with a thin rubber sole, and my times and enjoyment of running have never been better. I feel more in touch with what my body is telling me, and consequently because of that constant feedback, I have been altering my stride little by little. This has enabled me to gain more efficiency and stability in my stride. Even when I was in running shoes, my stride was moving towards this more biomechanically favorable running stride, and switching to a shoe with almost no padding whatsoever was the best thing I ever did for my running practice. I'm not proselytizing about running in bare feet, but the changes above were made in large part due to my realization that what my body needed was more feedback, not less. Less padding, not more. Of course, YMMV.

Thoughts? Comments/Questions?

My hope is to build up an ongoing compendium of biomechanical observations and techniques that assist us runners in staying injury free and running for many years to come.

okami1

23 November 2009, 19:06

Can't recommend them enough. Work into them s-l-o-w-l-y. I train in them regularly and just ran a 12K with no problems. Working up to marathon distance in them. See thread I just posted here:http://socnet.com/showthread.php?t=90740

The realizations I detail there both led me to and were inspired by getting out of "running" shoes.

JCasp- They will change your stride to accommodate your body, so I have had no problems related to lack of padding. I go about 6'0" and 190 lbs.

Max Power

23 November 2009, 21:53

mdavid

23 November 2009, 23:35

I've also converted over to running in them. Strangely enough all my knee pains went away. I really like them. Got a pair called the CSO which have a velcro strap as well

http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/images/products/148//large.jpg

e5wsf

24 November 2009, 07:46

Mine are still going strong.Very little visible signs of wear. They smell like ass after a few uses though.

Husker19D30

24 November 2009, 08:44

After 22 years in the military I'm still a running neophyte. Anytime I go more than a couple miles I have swollen knees and ankles the following day with accompanying soreness.

I don't stride, I bounce inefficiently along to a painful finish relieved that the run is over. Now that I don't have to run anymore I'm going to stick with cycling and swimming. Is it even worth the effort, at my age, to try to find a way to improve my form?

BOFH

24 November 2009, 12:42

Mine are still goint strong as well. I've taken to throwing them in the washing machine with my laundry every other week, which will probably cut the life down a bit, but at least it keeps the smell tolerable. I DO think I'll look at the injinji toe-socks, though...as the seems in the 5fingers start to rub and irritate after a couple miles.

As for regular running shoes, I won't buy anything but Brooks anymore.

okami1

24 November 2009, 20:11

To go along with the pelvic tilt (and this maybe be what you were talking about and I just misunderstood you) - work on tightening the abs and your glutes. It will bring the front of the pelvis up and the back down, reducing strain on the lumbar spine region and also allows your legs to move "freer" (completely unscientific, but I notice when I do make a point of doing so, my stride opens up more, I run faster, and use less energy). This also important for general back health at all times. Try it sitting in your chair at your computer, I guarantee that you'll notice a world of difference and an instant relaxed feeling in your lumbar region. It takes time to condition your muscles to this "new" posture, but it is more anatomically correct and will do wonders for you.

We are definitely on the same page. Your observation is an excellent one, and I think is the real key to making the pelvis tilt work like it's supposed to. I was just working on this today with my wife during our run. Taking the arch out of the lumbar area of the spine, and consciously drawing the tailbone towards the ground is the way I was trying to accomplish what you're talking about. It took some getting used to, but once I did, it really felt easy and correct.

In addition to this (I find it to be complimentary to each other), proper shoulder alignment is key. You wouldn't think it, but keeping your shoulder and scapulae in the correct position will also reduce strain on your backs, hips, and legs as well as opening up your chest/lungs and making it easier to breathe.

Just a couple of hints. And I'll echo the Vibram Five Fingers recommendation. Believe it or not, but both of the above things will happen automatically when you wear them, not just running, but for everyday use. It was pretty cool when I realized that.

That is why I love them. You can't do it wrong because your body won't do it without letting you know it hurts. Too cool.

I, however, even with these tips still have some pain during and after a run. That's a result of a few knee injuries that required a knee immobilizer for up to 6 months. I now have a slight limp that I have still, to this day, not figured out how to correct. If anyone has any ideas, let me know. My body just got used to compensating and walking all f-ed up, and now I can't get it back "right" years later.

That sucks. Have you tried a physical therapist and/or chiropractic type who might be able to tell you a little more of how the anatomy is functioning in the deficient knee? I think it always helps me to be able to visualize the area in question when I'm moving it, so I can consciously engage in changing the movement to a more correct, less painful one. My right leg is about 1/4" shorter than my left, and I wear a heel lift to compensate. When I could visualize the bone structure in my lumbar spine and hips, and what was happening in there to cause me pain, I felt like it was a whole new assessment of how to correct the problem. My back has been pretty stable for a while now because of that conscious correction on my part, that has now just become habit. HTH and good luck!

After 22 years in the military I'm still a running neophyte. Anytime I go more than a couple miles I have swollen knees and ankles the following day with accompanying soreness.

I don't stride, I bounce inefficiently along to a painful finish relieved that the run is over. Now that I don't have to run anymore I'm going to stick with cycling and swimming. Is it even worth the effort, at my age, to try to find a way to improve my form?

That's a really good question, especially if the swimming and cycling are working for you and providing you with the level of fitness you want. The question I would ask is: Do you enjoy running?/ Is there some hint of enjoyment you sense about running, but are unable to concentrate on due to the unenjoyable aspects of it?

I think that working with your stride can definitely make running available to you as an alternate form of exercise. With the formal changes to my own stride I noted above, I have very little bounce in my stride and am shuffling along at a good clip. I'm about to turn 33 and consequently have begun to really invest some mental energy in taking my running to a completely sustainable place as I get older. Before I really got into it, I definitely had the same symptoms you describe, sore knees, legs, etc.

okami1

24 November 2009, 20:12

Mine smell absolutely funkariffic after a week. I wash them in super hot water on the gentle cycle once a week too.

poison

24 November 2009, 22:08

http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=fitness&category=motivation&conitem=3b4b1ca01e91c010VgnVCM10000013281eac____&page=1

All the rucking I did in the army forced me to change my stride, to the point friends make fun of my running. You can't heel strike with 60 effing lbs on your back. :sarcasm: Interestingly, I have no ankle, knee, or hip pain, despite the mega-abuse.

JMD69

24 November 2009, 22:27

okami1,

Excellent and well written post. I will reread your explanation of pelvic tilt so that I may better understand it and experiment. Although my response may not be as eloquent as your initial post, I will say that after having taken some time off, putting on weight and now getting back to the basics of running, I am always eager to learn techniques that will assist in my lessening the pain or injuries that may occur when running.

I recently started working on a method that I read about called prose running. I am not certain if I am using the technique correctly but after having read the proper use of form, I will say that I have noticed a significant change in my comfort level (better) when running. I did experience very sore calf muscles at the onset but over time that has subsided. I now feel better and less sore and no more knee pain.

I have heard a lot of positive remarks regarding the five finger shoes. I hope to buy a pair soon. I do make it a point to run in my least cushioned new balance shoes that are almost like wearing stale socks! I now understand the concept of avoiding the impact of solid heel strike and the impact imposed.

Thanks for starting this thread. My 40 year old body needs to adapt and change so I can continue working on improving and running my mileage goals.

Take care,
JMD

random

24 November 2009, 22:31

JMD69

24 November 2009, 22:38

Regarding correct pelvis position: I think sketches are in order! :biggrin:

poison

24 November 2009, 22:48

pelvis tilt: do a hip thrust. That's 'forward'.

John6719

24 November 2009, 23:42

pelvis tilt: do a hip thrust. That's 'forward'.

Sooo, what you're trying to say is the "in" stroke during s*x:biggrin:

okami1

25 November 2009, 01:00

Sooo, what you're trying to say is the "in" stroke during s*x:biggrin:

Actually that's not too far from the truth. :biggrin:

JMD, thanks for the feedback. I'm feeling the same way.

I'd never seen the pose method before, but it looks a lot like what I have been trying to get to. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm going to have to do more research and try out some of the training techniques. I found THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7zEruVUwr4) on youtube which gives a brief but cool look at the pose training technique.

Sketches of proper pelvic alignment:

9965

9966

okami1

25 November 2009, 01:02

Max Power

25 November 2009, 01:18

That article is amazing.

I tried thinking about these things when I ran today. The mid-foot landing wasn't too hard to change. I'm a little unclear on the correct pelvis position. I should be tilting it forward, like hunching my back? I think I fixed the foot position but my time was the worst it's been since I've started running again. Feel fantastic, though, so I'm not complaining too much, provided I improve.

Regarding correct pelvis position: I think sketches are in order! :biggrin:

pelvis tilt: do a hip thrust. That's 'forward'.

Sooo, what you're trying to say is the "in" stroke during s*x:biggrin:

Actually that's not too far from the truth. :biggrin:

JMD, thanks for the feedback. I'm feeling the same way.

I'd never seen the pose method before, but it looks a lot like what I have been trying to get to. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm going to have to do more research and try out some of the training techniques. I found THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7zEruVUwr4) on youtube which gives a brief but cool look at the pose training technique.

Sketches of proper pelvic alignment:

9965

9966

I like where this is going :biggrin:

But unfortunately, no, on all counts. It would actually be closer to the out position.

Think of it as bringing the front of your pelvis "up" and the back "down". You're trying to get rid of the arch in the lower back (not completely, though). Unfortunately, the first girl is thrusting her pelvis forward, and consequently, down in the front and up in the back.

Contract your abs and squeeze your glutes, then you'll get the idea. Not doing so (down in front, up in back) forces the lumbar region to curve too far forward. Contracting your abs brings the front up, squeezing your glutes brings the back down, which reduces that curve, reducing the compression in the lumbar region, and putting your hip/pelvis joint in a more biomechanically efficient position.

An excellent article to read, if you are really interested, is the five part Neanderthal No More series on T-Nation (T-Nation.com Neanderthal No More, Part V (http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/neanderthal_no_more_part_v&cr=) - should have links to the previous articles as well, in the beginning).

okami1

25 November 2009, 01:35

I should have put quote marks around the word "proper." :biggrin:

Great explanation.

Max Power

25 November 2009, 01:38

LOL - the pictures worked on many different levels... Okay, two levels. Incorrect form and... Well, you can guess, LOL

Anyone have any input on the Nike Free versus the Pegasus? I love my Five Fingers, but the Army isn't too fond of that (I'm not even going to attempt it, actually). Or other similar shoes from other manufacturers?

I didn't even know about them until I read the article poison posted (great article, by the way).

random

25 November 2009, 05:20

Regarding correct pelvis position: I think sketches are in order! :biggrin:

Well so far all the correct ones have been male. ;)

So if I'm understanding this right, while running you should be squeezing your abs and contracting your glutes at all times? Because your lower back makes a C and you want it to be an l?

okami1

25 November 2009, 10:46

Well so far all the correct ones have been male. ;)

So if I'm understanding this right, while running you should be squeezing your abs and contracting your glutes at all times? Because your lower back makes a C and you want it to be an l?

Yes to the second part. But the alignment is not generated through force of muscular contraction exclusively, i.e. it shouldn't feel like you're working hard to maintain your posture. You still want some arch to your lower back, just very minimal. I'll see if I can dig up some videos or photos of what we're talking about. Something more illustrative of this concept than the previous photos. Not that what those photos demonstrate isn't valuable; I'm thinking she might even pass muster with SOTB. :biggrin:

poison

25 November 2009, 11:47

kosty

25 November 2009, 12:58

Keep in mind that those of us who sit for hours every day are going to have two issues, guaranteed, which affect running posture:

1) the hip flexors will shrink, pulling the hips out of proper alignment when standing or running. (out stroke of the hip thrust) So we need to stretch those good, on a regular basis throughout the day.

2) Shoulders will round forward because we tend to slouch. The pecs shrink, which keeps them rounded forward. The scapulae are supposed to be back and down (stand bolt upright, and push the shouder blades towards each other in the back, and down toward the butt).
These two factors are what I fight every time I run. The shortened hip flexors caused and injury when I pushed it too hard, so now I stretch them daily. The forward rounded shoulders cause me trapezius & neck pain whenever I let myself slouch for any length of time. When I run I pull the belly button in & up (using the transverse abdominals) to correct the pelvic tilt, and consciously pull my scapulae down & back. If I relax either of those I will pay with pain throughout next days.

Max Power

25 November 2009, 13:10

Keep in mind that those of us who sit for hours every day are going to have two issues, guaranteed, which affect running posture:

1) the hip flexors will shrink, pulling the hips out of proper alignment when standing or running. (out stroke of the hip thrust) So we need to stretch those good, on a regular basis throughout the day.

2) Shoulders will round forward because we tend to slouch. The pecs shrink, which keeps them rounded forward. The scapulae are supposed to be back and down (stand bolt upright, and push the shouder blades towards each other in the back, and down toward the butt).

Exactly (though I think we're using different terms for out and in, out to me is thrusting forward and in to... something ;))

I highly recommend the Neanderthal No More articles. They go into tremendous depth on causes of the two things above, how to fix them, then a program at the end of the series to achieve that correction. Very well put together series of articles.

smoked

26 November 2009, 13:26

Great posts and thread, okami! Much appreciated. To Max Power as well.

I hate running. :)

Having said that, I would really, really like to be good at it. I had ACL reconstruction last year and have been trying hard to regain some respectability in my runs. Additionally, the bouncing of running causes considerable pain from herniated discs in my neck, which radiates in my head, down my arm and into scapular area - it sucks. (I don't recommend BJJ - both injuries, among others, caused from that... :). I also have a long history of shin splints. Lastly, my lower back hurts like hell when I run (about two inches from center, waistband of shorts). So, I'm making a last ditch effort at running before I get back into cycling.

My shin splints have been addressed through maximum-support shoes (ASICS Gel Evolution 5) and orthotics.

Having read this thread and being interested in the POSE method for some time, I decided to give this a run variation a go this morning - atleast how I understand the method. I tried to buy some Five Fingers yesterday, but the store was out of my size - the guy said they're selling like hot cakes. (They had the FeelMax, though) Not wanting to try this run in the ASICS, I used a pair of those casual Adidas motorsport shoes with minimal soles.

My *run* went like this:
2 mins ON (jog) / 2 mins OFF (walk) for 3 repetitions. After my calves feeling like they were going to blow, I went to 5 repetitions of 1 min ON / 2 min OFF. I spent some time at the "Born to Run" Google group yesterday and the overwhelming majority of folks said to start slowly, so that's what I did. I may have overdone it anyway with regard to my calves.

It was odd trying to run in this fashion and I felt like I was tip-toeing but instead of hunched over I was vertical. I must've looked like a runaway fruitcake.

On my run two days ago, I had to stop because my back was killing me. The only time my back hurt today was when I got lazy and reverted back to a heel strike - with my ass sticking out a la bad pelvis tilt. I also tried to walk with the pelvis tilt. Well, my back pain was gone within a minute and didn't bother for the remaining 3 1-minute reps. My Iliopsoas muscles were pumped. If I understand this correctly, these are the muscles hit during flutter kicks. That's where I felt it anyway. I also noticed that the bouncing was nearly gone - my head *felt* like it was tracking a tight rope. So, no neck pain. All in all, I don't hurt right now -- EXCEPT my calves. I wonder if I'm doing it correctly?

PS:

I mentioned the FeelMax so I might as well describe them...they are super thin on the soles (1mm). They look okay and not as goofy as the VFF. Reviews show they suck in wet weather and are like sponges. At $80 I decided to pass on those.

I did find a product to be released in Spring 2010 that look like they could be a winner: http://www.terraplana.com/the-evo

I found a pair of Five Finger Flows at another store and will pick them up Saturday. I'm looking forward to trying those out. I'll get the Born To Run book tomorrow so I can further understand the method - and/or correct what I did this morning.

okami1

28 November 2009, 16:49

smoked- Flutter kicks do use the iliopsoas muscle along with the abs and quads. (As your user title testifies ;)) Glad to hear that these postural adjustments helped mitigate the pain you were having. And yes, this running posture does not look nearly as cool as sprinting. Runaway fruitcake probably depends on your locale. As I said before, there's enough fruitcakery around here that I could run in a clown suit and only get a glance. :biggrin:

As to your calves, when I switched to low padding shoes and finally to the fivefingers, I experienced VERY sore calves for the first week or so. Just had to run through them. I have talked to other runners and this is one of the more common complaints, so I would guess you're doing it right.

Born to run is a great book about the reasons behind believing in a running style that does not make use of padded running shoes, but as far as the method goes, it doesn't really address it too well. Chi running and the pose method literature that I've read so far are much better technically speaking.

smoked

1 December 2009, 09:02

Thanks okami. One thing I didn't do was lift my feet straight up vice pulling through the stride. I'll give that a try today with the VFF....

BTW, I downloaded a 75 page pdf "book" describing barefoot running and how to get started. If anyone wants a copy, PM me.

okami1

4 December 2009, 12:08

Yesterday during my run I did some work with the foot placement thing. I found that starting by landing on my forefoot, and gradually adjusting the attitude of the foot towards the heel was an easier way to really feel the mid-foot strike happening properly. I used to go the other way, from heel to mid-foot, and changing it around really helped with both the landing and the lifting of the leg through the stride. Also, it seemed like this made lifting the leg using the iliopsoas easier as well.

SOTB

4 December 2009, 12:24

okami1

4 December 2009, 12:35

Sometimes I think people make running too complicated. Granted, this is coming from someone who's knees are not the happiest they have been, but I can generally feel comfortable in my runtimes -- considering the pathetic amount of time I actually dedicate to this area.

Still, I won't lie when I state I am intrigued by some of your comments. I'm not sure I am intrigued enough to change my running style to POSE. I might spring for the 5-Fingers shoes, though....

Yeah, I read the whole thread through yesterday, and thought to myself, it doesn't FEEL that complicated when I'm doing it, but it sure sounds like it when you try and explain it on the internet. :biggrin:

I guess the real measure we should apply is what feels biomechanically correct for our own running style. If it works, and you don't have pain, that's all that really matters. Eventually, one has build their own style out of all the information that's available. The fivefingers rock. Definitely try some out. My calves and feet themselves have gotten a lot stronger since I started running in them. I do my workouts in them as well, and a trainer came by while I was doing some squats and commented on how good she thought they were for making sure your form is perfect, because you can see everything that's going on in the foot and the ankle during lifts. Pretty cool.

smoked

4 December 2009, 13:15

Sometimes I think people make running too complicated....

Was exactly the point of my next post on the topic....

Dude, get the VFF, they are awesome. You feel all kinds of things you're not used to feeling and they show how weak your feet have become. Driving a car will show you that your toes have become feckless nubs.

- If it works, and you don't have pain, that's all that really matters.

That nails it.

For my first short - and I mean short - run in the VFF I just went out and ran keeping only two things in mind: upright posture with slight forward lean and focus on lifting feet rather than pushing off (< major point). The footfall and stride length took care of itself. I'm wondering if worrying about pelvis tilt is really all that beneficial???? It seems to me that struggling for an unnatural pelvic tilt would be more strenuous, so I'm not doing that. Also, that runaway fruitcake feeling disappeared. It's really not all that goofy.

Born to Run is a GREAT book! It makes you want to go run which, in my case, is an unexplainable phenomenon. :smile:

smoked

4 December 2009, 13:18

Oh, for those interested in barefoot running, wanted to post this from that pdf book I downloaded:

Stage 1
2 weeks
Walk around barefoot as many places as possible. Do not start running yet. This will begin to condition your feet and soles for more active barefoot running. This stage could also include barefoot activities such as hiking. There is no mileage associated with the stage. Also, it is recommended to do some leg strengthening exercises throughout this stage. Move on to stage two if you do not experience pain after two weeks. If you already do a lot of barefoot activity, this step may be skipped.

Stage 2
2 weeks
Begin walking in place barefoot. Slowly increase the cadence until you are slowly running in place. The idea is to learn how it feels to lightly touch the ground and pull your feet straight up without pushing off. This will also begin the process of preparing the bones, muscles, tendons, and ligaments of your feet to barefoot running. Start with 30 seconds of running in place 2-3 times per day. Increase this time by 15 seconds each day. Move on to stage three when you can run in place for three minutes without pain. If you already do a lot of barefoot activity, this step may be skipped.

Stage 3
4 weeks
Find hard, smooth surface without debris. Examples include new asphalt, smooth sidewalks, or running tracks. Begin running three times per week with at least one rest day after each barefoot run. Limit distance to 1/8 to 1/4 mile depending on running experience. Increase distance by 1/8th mile each day. Pace should be VERY slow; the focus is on finding a form that works well for you. If you experience pain, take an extra day off. If you develop blisters, slow down or reevaluate form. Move on to stage four when you are able to run 1.5 miles barefoot without pain, including one or two days after the barefoot run (some injuries are not immediately apparent).

Stage 4
4 weeks
Begin adding different terrain, including softer surfaces and hills. This can include grass, dirt trail, sand, etc. A good strategy is to run a hard surface one day, then a soft surface the next. At this stage, you should be running approximately 1.5 miles barefoot. During this stage, continue adding 1/8th mile per run. Continue going slow, your focus is going to be perfecting your form. Again, if you experience blisters, slow down. If you feel pain, take a day off. Move on to stage five when you are able to run 3 miles barefoot without pain, including one or two days after the barefoot run (some injuries are not immediately apparent).

Stage 5
No specific time frame
By this point, you should be running about 3 miles per run. You may begin experimenting with slowly increasing your pace, increasing your distance, or adding technical trails or hills to your routine. Only add one element at a time. Do not increase distance by more than 10% per week or speed by more than 15 seconds per mile. Again, if you experience blisters, slow down. If you feel pain, take a day off. Your feet should now be conditioned enough to be your “running shoe” of choice for most of your runs. Just keep in mind that completing this transition is similar to earning your black belt in martial arts; which is considered the point at which you know the basics and true learning begins...not where the learning ends. Take it slow, listen to your body and enjoy your journey.

dagger0824

5 December 2009, 10:37

Dude, get the VFF, they are awesome. You feel all kinds of things you're not used to feeling and they show how weak your feet have become. Driving a car will show you that your toes have become feckless nubs.

Haha, I agree with that.

I'll endorse VFF. I really like my pair I've had since October 2008- they really have improved my running form. Eventually I got to the point where I wore them everywhere but now that it's winter, not so much.

SOTB

7 December 2009, 10:47

I don't have access to weights at the moment, so when CF WODs call for them, I sub a previous WOD. Today I sub'd 10 rounds of 100m sprints.

There ain't no way in hell I am going to admit my times. Fuck off. :redface::biggrin:

I'm too old....:frown::p

poison

7 December 2009, 15:58

Pfft, sprinting isn't for everyone. I've always sucked, but can run long distances fast, and ruck all day.

So what were your times? :p

Lord Skeletor

8 December 2009, 04:48

Are these endorsed by Ashida Kim? :D

No...you...didn't. lol

These things rule. I wear them everywhere, and yes...I get the strange remarks/looks along with the "gay jokes" from my buddies. But I will tell you this...these things friggin' rule. Get a pair.

smoked

11 December 2009, 12:10

Since I skipped steps 3-5 above and went out on a 3 mile run/walk, I can barely walk. My calves are past sore, they're in downright f'ing pain.

okami1

11 December 2009, 12:17

My habit has been to push past the soreness with almost all other exercise techniques and methods. Not with this one. I feel you man. There were days when I got started where walking was more like hobbling.

smoked

11 December 2009, 12:29

Hobbling is all I can do and I'm with you, can't imagine pushing past this.

Sucks because I'm eager to see how far I can go on the next run. (I can't believe I just wrote that. :smile:)

okami1

11 December 2009, 12:37

8Ball

13 December 2009, 22:41

They look kinda frightening. Almost like a chopped off Gorillas foot.
But, my interest is definitely peeked.

bugeater

14 December 2009, 01:29

Looking into the KSO Trek right now. Mil pricing? Hopefully good :)

smoked

15 December 2009, 20:28

A REALLY good way to get the soreness to keep moving out is to do some foam rolling. Basically set your legs up on the roller and let the hard foam massage the soreness out. It hurts, but it seriously helps. This is a good habit for any sore muscles, but especially on the calves/achilles area and the IT bands.

That roller worked wonders,dude. Thanks. I forgot I had one and never really used it, but after yesterday's 3 miler, I REALLY needed it. Seemed to help a TON.

Incidentally, I was in NYC this past weekend - walking everywhere - and as I was having lunch in Little Italy, I recalled that Terra Plana (vivo barefoot shoe technology) had a store in NY. Looked it up on my phone and it turned out I was sitting 1/2 a mile from their only location in the USA. What luck. Made the walk and purchased some casuals for work. Those things are most comfortable.

bugeater

16 December 2009, 01:21

Anyone have direct word on mil pricing from these guys?

They haven't answered my emails yet and I'm getting impatient... :)

WTS03

19 December 2009, 19:24

I askede about Mil pricing as well never got a return said f*ck it and bought a pair awhile ago in july. I love the things...origianlly bought for grappling, now i wear them almost everywhere for working out and running as well. The first run they killed my calves, after the third run I got used to it though. All I can say is that when I wear the I feel like a ninja :biggrin: that alone is worth the price lol.

CsC0321

19 December 2009, 20:09

My toes are long and skinny, people get scared. I'm doubtfull they would fit me very well, but I like what I hear about them.

dagger0824

19 December 2009, 20:55

My toes are long and skinny, people get scared. I'm doubtfull they would fit me very well, but I like what I hear about them.

Don't worry about that- I have very long and skinny toes. I'm way over 6 feet as well. I first started out with size 46, but could probably use a 45 now that my feet are shorter in total length. Supposedly there's a tape of some sort in your foot that will tighten up after wearing Vibrams (or walking barefoot) after a few months.

Doc Bravo

19 December 2009, 21:01

Sorry Guys, but why the hell would you want to run or train or do anything else in these things? What's wrong with regular running shoes?

dagger0824

19 December 2009, 21:03

Sorry Guys, but why the hell would you want to run or train or do anything else in these things? What's wrong with regular running shoes?

Vibrams are chick magnets. Don't believe me, wear them around yourself.

Not that I need Vibrams to attract females- I'm just saying.

CsC0321

19 December 2009, 21:56

Good info, thanks Dagger.

BlackAdam01

19 December 2009, 22:00

I totally thought the picture was frost bite for a second. Way too much to drink tonight! LOL!

okami1

20 December 2009, 12:32

What's wrong with regular running shoes?

IMO, everything.

Petey

20 December 2009, 13:56

Sorry Guys, but why the hell would you want to run or train or do anything else in these things? What's wrong with regular running shoes?

Because you were meant to walk and live barefoot. Regular running shoes lead you to improper running technique. Watch a small child running, they naturally run ball of the foot. In Vibram's you have to run in the manner you we're meant too, Ball of foot.

That being said, it's not been easy to run ball of the foot for me at least, and I caution people with running in Vibrams. Start slowly, work your way up. You will eventually be able to go long, and possibly avoid injury.

Doe's anybody else's stink after extended wear? I've tried using baking soda, letting it soak in over night before washing. Any ideas to avoid stinky feet?

okami1

20 December 2009, 13:59

Doe's anybody else's stink after extended wear? I've tried using baking soda, letting it soak in over night before washing. Any ideas to avoid stinky feet?

Big time. I wash mine in hot water on the gentle cycle once a week. I add a little bleach to the water and let it mix before putting them in. (So as not to discolor them) Does a pretty good job.

I usually hang dry, but have dried them on low and have had no problems.

okami1

20 December 2009, 14:12

Vibrams are chick magnets. Don't believe me, wear them around yourself.

I'll second that. If you're a reasonably good looking dude and you run a race in these, you will get a lot of attention. Some of them are likely to be hot chicks. I am unreasonably good looking, so they have all, without exception, been 9s or 10s. Minimum. Your results may vary.

GPC

7 January 2010, 09:42

Got the Sprints today, fit good on a wide foot.I wear a E for shoes and I got them on without problems.They feel great only took me a few minutes to get them on.
I'm going to go lift in them tonight maybe a short walk to get used to them.
Anyone try them in snow yet?Any other advice?

Patrick7

13 January 2010, 13:23

Because you were meant to walk and live barefoot. Regular running shoes lead you to improper running technique. Watch a small child running, they naturally run ball of the foot. In Vibram's you have to run in the manner you we're meant too, Ball of foot.

That being said, it's not been easy to run ball of the foot for me at least, and I caution people with running in Vibrams. Start slowly, work your way up. You will eventually be able to go long, and possibly avoid injury.

Doe's anybody else's stink after extended wear? I've tried using baking soda, letting it soak in over night before washing. Any ideas to avoid stinky feet?

Vinegar works as well to get the stink out. A little vinegar and water in a bucket to soak in, then I wash normally with a little bleach-no problems so far.

guns

14 January 2010, 06:53

I'm going to go lift in them tonight

Dude, you're much better off lifting in a pair of Chuck's or some similar type of shoe. You want a flat, stable platform. Your foot is not flat. Heavy lifting in VFF is not advisable.

GPC

14 January 2010, 10:05

Dude, you're much better off lifting in a pair of Chuck's or some similar type of shoe. You want a flat, stable platform. Your foot is not flat. Heavy lifting in VFF is not advisable.

Thanks,I don't go heavy that much.Just shrugs on a Smith machine and bench.
I will pass this along to some folks I see doing deadlifts and squats in them.
Tried them outside on packed snow good grip they do not insulate your feet well IMHO.
The Flows might be better.

smoked

14 January 2010, 10:27

Dude, you're much better off lifting in a pair of Chuck's or some similar type of shoe. You want a flat, stable platform. Your foot is not flat. Heavy lifting in VFF is not advisable.

?

I would think the benefit of going barefoot would apply in all situations. I saw a post on another site (I'll find it later) that stated shoes can actually restrict your feet from spreading while lifting - which is what you want for stability. Not a big deal, but curious as to what your take on it is?

JCasp

14 January 2010, 10:56

I'll second that. If you're a reasonably good looking dude and you run a race in these, you will get a lot of attention. Some of them are likely to be hot chicks. I am unreasonably good looking, so they have all, without exception, been 9s or 10s. Minimum. Your results may vary.

Let my neckbeard grow out and throw on my shirt autographed by the cast of Stargate SG-1, got it.

Got the Sprints today, fit good on a wide foot.I wear a E for shoes and I got them on without problems.They feel great only took me a few minutes to get them on.
I'm going to go lift in them tonight maybe a short walk to get used to them.
Anyone try them in snow yet?Any other advice?

That's good to know. After you get some runs in can you follow up this post? Being a fellow wide-footer I was hesitant to pick these up.

Max Power

14 January 2010, 11:12

JCasp, mine work great (fellow wide-footer, EEEE in running shoes). No issues at all with width.

GPC

14 January 2010, 11:45

(fellow wide-footer, EEEE in running shoes).

EEEE:eek: you must be a fast swimmer.
JCasp I have been walking on a indoor track.I have had no problems with chaffing or the shoe slipping.
It feels weird at first but I got used to them fast.I wore them around the house to break them in and did short walks at first.
With winter here I have not been able to wear them outside yet.(except for the snow experiment)

guns

14 January 2010, 12:52

?

I would think the benefit of going barefoot would apply in all situations. I saw a post on another site (I'll find it later) that stated shoes can actually restrict your feet from spreading while lifting - which is what you want for stability. Not a big deal, but curious as to what your take on it is?

Ok, I may have come off a little too hardline in my previous post. Lifting in VFF's, or barefoot, is much better than lifting in running shoes or your average cross-training shoe. However, lifting in a pair of Chuck's or a pair of no-shit weightlifting shoes is ideal. Heavy lifting barefoot will help strengthen the smaller muscles in your feet and ankles, but you will not be able to lift as much as you would with good, solid shoes on. You squat and deadlift for large muscle groups, not small ones. The benefit of being able to lift a heavier weight, and therefore getting stronger, outweighs the benefit of strengthening the little muscles that you can strengthen by jump-roping or running barefoot.

GPC

15 January 2010, 09:42

That's good to know. After you get some runs in can you follow up this post? Being a fellow wide-footer I was hesitant to pick these up.

I did some sprinting last night and a very fast walk no slipage in the heels or chaffing did this for a hour.
Did some squats with VFFs and sneakers.I found myself more balanced in the VFFs.I have not squated in a few years tried sneakers for 2 sets then VFFs for 2 sets.Weight was 315 10 reps.
This is week 2 working out in them for me.Thank you for your input Guns.
Anyone tried clean jerks in VFFs?

smoked

15 January 2010, 10:48

Anyone tried clean jerks in VFFs?

I've done just about everything in VFFs. All good.

Guns' post makes sense to a degree, but I'm just gonna' act like I didn't read it. :biggrin:

guns, ;)

guns

15 January 2010, 11:59

Hahaha. It's all good. It really boils down to the same thing almost every other fitness question boils down to, what do YOU want? Personally, I want to move the heaviest weight possible and could give a damn about the smaller foot and ankle muscles, hence my position on VFF's. :smile:

okami1

15 January 2010, 16:27

Thanks,I don't go heavy that much.Just shrugs on a Smith machine and bench.
I will pass this along to some folks I see doing deadlifts and squats in them.
Tried them outside on packed snow good grip they do not insulate your feet well IMHO.
The Flows might be better.

Flows are definitely warmer. Neoprene upper and stiffer than the KSOs too. VFF also makes the Trek. (http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/products_kso_trek_m.cfm) Never seen one in real life, but a kangaroo leather upper and thicker sole sound pretty good for cold weather running.

Let my neckbeard grow out and throw on my shirt autographed by the cast of Stargate SG-1, got it.

Dude. Triple fucking bingo. Having met the man who was MacGuyver = mad honies.

JCasp

15 January 2010, 16:41

Thanks for the info widefeet amigos. I'll be starting with these this spring then.

e5wsf

15 January 2010, 17:16

but a kangaroo leather upper and thicker sole....
The leather is for formal wear.

Doink

16 January 2010, 12:53

I may be getting my first pair of Five Fingers soon, and I was wondering what the functional differences between the sprint and the KSO are. Thanks

smoked

16 January 2010, 15:21

I may be getting my first pair of Five Fingers soon, and I was wondering what the functional differences between the sprint and the KSO are. Thanks

KSO= Keep Shit Out

Worth repeating to start slooooowwwwly... I just tweaked a lower leg muscle - not ten seconds after saying to myself: "Cool. Feeling no pain, could be a good run." It was probably due to a few factors, but the point is that you will use muscles you haven't used. And, it's not the calves - not the worst part anyway. It's the area between the achilles and the calf muscle. And, when that hurts, walking hurts.

Doink

16 January 2010, 15:47

Thanks for the info
Oh, and I think I did that a few months ago. you might want to get a piece of strong cloth based tape that'll go from the arch of your foot to mid-calf and cut a lengthwise slit in it for about two inches on both ends and spread it. stick the tape in the aforementioned places on your leg and make it as secure as possible. It worked for me.
PM me for more info and pictures

Senior D

16 January 2010, 16:36

I got some KSOs for Xmas this year. They're awesome. I use them for running and crossfit. I had some Nike Frees a few years back and these are light years ahead of the Frees. Definitely worth taking a few weeks and sticking to some short mileage runs.

okami1

16 January 2010, 16:44

The leather is for formal wear.

My thoughts exactly good Sir. Especially now that I've decided I never want to wear shoes again. The black ones might look kind of sporting with a nice suit.

smoked

16 January 2010, 19:25

Especially now that I've decided I never want to wear shoes again.

Ditto. I wonder if wearing heeled shoes this past week - instead of the vivo barefoot casuals - contributed to tweaking my lower leg today????

Doink, PM inbound. Don't think it's that serious but I'm curious to as what you're talking about. Thanks.

Doink

16 January 2010, 23:09

Did you get it, I have no confirmation that it sent, but I know I told it to

smoked

16 January 2010, 23:50

Did you get it, I have no confirmation that it sent, but I know I told it to

Yes, I did. Very much appreciate your effort.

okami1

20 January 2010, 14:51

Tried on a pair of the Treks the other day. SUPER comfy. I wouldn't run in them, as they are much stiffer than either the KSO or the Flow, but for everyday use, G2G. Will be picking them up soon. Check them out for sure.

smoked

21 January 2010, 03:55

I wouldn't run in them

Well, here's our first barefoot snob...:biggrin:

okami1

22 January 2010, 13:01

Well, here's our first barefoot snob...:biggrin:

No way man, as e5wsf said, these are for formal wear only. :biggrin:

Jong

27 January 2010, 16:16

Do you guys wear socks for these?

Patrick7

27 January 2010, 17:27

I dont but I live in the south so no real need.

Injini (sp?) does make socks that will work with these, sure there are a few other companies out there.

okami1

28 January 2010, 12:08

I don't wear socks with mine. Can't see the need either. As stated above, the flows will keep your feet warmer if it's a concern.

dagger0824

29 January 2010, 17:18

Do you guys wear socks for these?

Yes, I have a pair of Injinji's that I use when it's very cold outside.

Also, when going on longer runs over hard surfaces such as concrete or asphalt, socks do help out a lot.

B 2/75

29 January 2010, 17:34

Hmmmmmm

Never thought that this thread would actually last 100 posts.

Maybe there is actually a shred of potential in these funky lookin' shoes....?

okami1

29 January 2010, 23:27

Maybe there is actually a shred of potential in these funky lookin' shoes....?

I think you might have to be vegan to make them work. ;):biggrin:

e5wsf

30 January 2010, 00:34

Do you guys wear socks for these?

I have the Injinji but prefer not to use them. Used my KSOs in the cold and they work fine. They are not cold weather survival gear.:smile:

CsC0321

30 January 2010, 01:07

Mine shipped today. Its embarrassing how excited I am.

dagger0824

30 January 2010, 03:26

Mine shipped today. Its embarrassing how excited I am.

How did your toes end up fitting in them?

Jong

30 January 2010, 03:35

B 2/75

30 January 2010, 10:35

Dude, look out the window....

It's fookin' snowing out ;)

Jong

30 January 2010, 11:03

Dude, look out the window....

It's fookin' snowing out ;)

Well unlike most people in the military I like to think more than one day at a time!! :biggrin:

CsC0321

30 January 2010, 11:40

How did your toes end up fitting in them?

I couldn't find one local shop that carried my size, so I ended up just going off of the sizing chart. We'll see.

dagger0824

30 January 2010, 11:52

I was talking to my wife about these and she asked if you wear socks with them. Since I haven't gotten a pair yet, I had no idea. Other question she asked was how they do in the heat. Do your feet feel the heat of hot pavement?

You can wear socks, it's optional obviously. I live in the desert where it gets up to 120 F, and I've never had any problems. Of course your feet will be warm from the temperature, but there is a layer of rubber between the pavement and your feet so pavement temp doesn't matter too much. You shouldn't have any issues with the pavement.

GPC

1 February 2010, 10:07

How did your toes end up fitting in them?

I took a gamble and went off the sizing charts.
Ran in them the other day had muscles sore that I never knew existed.
No knee pain either glad I broke them in and took it slow.

JCasp

1 February 2010, 20:21

Where are you guys ordering from? I went to order KSOs from REI and Kayakshed ($85) and they're sold out. Amazon has them for some stupid fuckin price like $160. I don't even understand how they're selling them for twice as much.

Edit: Cool, VFF.com has them in stock but they keep denying my card saying my info is different from what my card company has on file... the shits identical. Blah guess I'll go with an REI preorder

CsC0321

1 February 2010, 20:34

Go to http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/ and order direct. I was having the same issue and actually placed an order with a company who had them "in-stock' on their webpage but not in-stock in reality. I had to contact them to find out what the deal was with my order. Anyways, go direct and skip the BS.

random

1 February 2010, 20:34

They have places that sell them in-store, I think. There might be a link on their website?

They're going to be my end of semester gift to myself, come May. I think there's a few places in DC that carry them.

Edit: Found the link http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/productSupport/store_locator.cfm?state=mi#

smoked

1 February 2010, 20:56

I think there's a few places in DC that carry them.

Edit: Found the link http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/productSupport/store_locator.cfm?state=mi#

Casual Adventure in Arlington has them and gives 10% mil discount. Not sure if Hudson Trail gives discount.

JCasp

1 February 2010, 21:20

Yeah I'm going to call them tomorrow, I have literally copy pasted my entire account info from my CC's website onto the Vibram order page and it still says the billing information is different and keeps denying the sale

Capone6924

16 February 2010, 15:00

First post on SOCNET, however, long time lurker.

Just rcv'd my Black/Black KSOs here in Afghanistan today. I'm definitely diggin' them. I'm taking it slow as recommended.

A GREAT place to shop for these is Crossroadsonline.com. $85.00 for the Black/Black KSOs in sz. M41. Most of you should know that those are the most common size, thus making it the most tough to find. Free shipping too! It was about $8.50 for them to ship it here, so technically I guess I paid about $74. They even threw in a hacky sack for free w/ a post-it saying, "Thanks for working for us out there."

I ordered the Injinji socks to go with them (my feet sweat even with alcohol baths and Tolnaftate powder) but haven't rcv'd them yet. I'm worried they're gonna be too thick since the M41s are snug.

Anyone wear them and find them too thick for the FFs?

Gryfen-FL

21 February 2010, 13:23

Just ordered a pair of KSOs...we'll see how this works with sizing. :biggrin: they don't carry 'scuba flipper' in female styles, so I went with a 42. :biggrin:

smoked

23 February 2010, 16:11

Terra Plana just early released (to email subscribers and only til March 1st) their EVO line to compete with FiveFingers. I have a pair of Vivo casuals I love and wear everywhere, but at $160/pair, I think I'll stick to my KSOs for working out/running.

But, if anyone's interested in a barefoot running shoe that isn't so funny looking, here ya' go:
http://www.terraplana.com/evo-mens-hidden/271?utm_source=TP%2BEVO%20US%2023022010&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=TP%2BEVO%20US%2023022010

Max Power

23 February 2010, 16:53

John6719

23 February 2010, 18:42

Saw a CPT from 3/75 wearing some sort of 5 finger shoes in the gym on McGregor. Since I was told not to talk to the Rangers, I didn't ask what he thought of them.

Gryfen-FL

24 February 2010, 18:05

Just arrived. :biggrin:

I thought the 'between the toes' thing would be irritating at first.....the only one that feels odd is the pinky toe. Mine naturally lay almost up under the 4th toe. :cool:

bugeater

25 February 2010, 20:00

Heading to Thailand...we'll see how the KSO's hold up in 100+ temps.

smoked

26 February 2010, 10:06

For stinky VFFs...

Lifted from VFF Facebook Fan page:

"Smelly FiveFingers? It happens to the best of us. The VFF Team recommends trying Efferdent tablets (made for dentures http://www.efferdent.com/). Take the Efferdent tablets, drop them in a bucket of water with your FiveFingers, and the stink usually bubbles away. Your friends will thank you."

Caber

27 February 2010, 13:53

I've never run for the love of it; it was always just something I did for other sports (wrestling, football) or just to add more cardio to CF. Mostly hated it, but sucked it up. Then I read about a Harvard study on barefoot running (http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/) and gave it a try. Totally different experience. Started on a treadmill (it's sill cold out here in UT) at 2 - 3 miles and actually enjoyed it (no knee pain, etc.), except for the blister I worked up for diving in too fast. I'm looking at getting the KSO's to help with the cold and protection. Ugly, but they look functional.

Guy

4 March 2010, 04:59

Use KSOs in the gym/yoga and wear the below when it's not raining.

The Injinji Socks are pretty good even for everyday wear.

Stay safe.

BRC

4 March 2010, 19:29

I got my KSO for Xmas, ugly to the point of funny but comfortable...use them for circuit workouts including some running...no problems so far..

BRC

random

4 March 2010, 20:14

Shopping trip this weekend. Trying to justify to myself that I don't need them as I can't wear them to work, but it's not going so well. Seeing all these pictures isn't helping my logical thought process either. I want. :biggrin:

wandering_idiot

4 March 2010, 20:48

What if you were to stow them in the freezer for a couple of days in a baggie? The cold will kill off the bacteria causing the smell.

I used to leave my smelly boots outside in Alaska during the winter for two days and that always did it.

Gryfen-FL

4 March 2010, 21:31

downey or the 'stink out' stuff designed for wet suits should do the trick as well.

GPC

4 March 2010, 21:41

Efferdent in a bucket of water is supposed to work well.

okami1

6 March 2010, 13:35

As an update to some of my previous posts in this thread about washing the VFFs, I just had a pair of KSOs start to separate where the rubber sole meets the mesh upper. I believe it is due to a couple of turns in the dryer on low, and will be air-dry only from now on. Was able to reattach them where they had come apart, and so far they're holding up great. Gotta give the efferdent thing a try; I would prefer not to put them in the washer at all, but man, that smell is something powerful. Hope it works.

okami1

6 March 2010, 13:39

Checking in...

How's everyone doing with the things we've talked about in this thread? I've been working a lot on keeping my shoulders back and up, (kind of like chi running does) and it has been awesome. This has really helped with my overall posture and seems to make my stride even more efficient and comfortable. Anyone else notice this?

Savoy6

6 March 2010, 20:22

Ordered some KSOs today and the wife ordered some also (not sure what model). She has had some foot issues and after trying some on today was ready to wear them straight home. Will be interesting to see how it fits and works out. Thanks for all the other post on here to help us get informed.

low country

6 March 2010, 20:52

smoked

6 March 2010, 21:37

I am really tempted to get a pair of these as the reviews have been great.

I was wondering if anyone with foot problems haveused or are currently using them. I have had plantar faciaitis and chronic sesamoid issues. The science behind them sounds like it might actually help the plantar issue, but was unsure of the sesamoid.

Thanks in advance.

A thread here (http://www.runnersworld.com/community/forums/index.jsp?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3AInjury+PreventionForum%3A67 8106477Discussion%3A220101028) on runnersworld.com's forum has a couple posts from former sufferers of sesamoiditis... who now run barefoot.

Savoy6

6 March 2010, 22:32

bm2bob

7 March 2010, 00:07

Low Country - my wife has plantar issues. Will let you know in several weeks if she has any success.

On another note, we went to a local store in Virginia Beach to see what they had. Two people were trying them on and another came in right after us. The store said that it was one of their best selling items. Of course their stockage was depleted due to high sells which is why we ordered off the net.

Savoy6, where did you get them in Va Beach? I bought mine in RI when I was visiting my family.

They are slowly helping me with chronic (3 years) PF, only thing that has worked (well, cortisone too for a couple of weeks.) And NOBs Q80 gym won't let me wear em. Tools.:(

reconhawaii

7 March 2010, 00:09

Nice ones. I heard they're really good. Going to get a pair but my feet is to fat...

okami1

7 March 2010, 00:44

And NOBs Q80 gym won't let me wear em. Tools.:(

Why won't they let you wear them?

bm2bob

7 March 2010, 11:22

Why won't they let you wear them?

Because, either "they're not safe" until I offer to stick an egg in my sneakers and my VFFs and drop a plate on them, or "they're against Navy Uniform regs", until I tell them I'm retired. They're not any way, one of my friends is a CFL on a carrier and he doesn't have a problem w/people wearing them. Basically, they just don't like them.

wandering_idiot

7 March 2010, 11:34

What? You mean to tell me they don't offer a 'Safety Toe'?

yuk yuk:biggrin:

bugeater

10 March 2010, 03:02

Gryfen-FL

10 March 2010, 04:20

initially, less than 2. they're not kidding about how you find muscles in your feet you didn't know you had.

Lannister

10 March 2010, 05:01

As an update to some of my previous posts in this thread about washing the VFFs, I just had a pair of KSOs start to separate where the rubber sole meets the mesh upper. I believe it is due to a couple of turns in the dryer on low, and will be air-dry only from now on...

Umm.............

*Machine washable. Air dry away from sun or heat source.

..............;)

okami1

10 March 2010, 12:11

Alright guys, distance.

I've been reading back through the marathon thread, and am all motivated to get back into some distance running.

What kind of distances you have you all put down in your five fingers?

Max so far has been a 3 hour run ~ 18 miles. Super groovy.

Currently training to do 26.2 in a few months.

Lannister, yeah I know, but I felt bad going to the gym in them the way they smelled and didn't have time to air dry them. :biggrin:

Savoy6

10 March 2010, 17:43

Just got mine and the wifey too! Am getting a touch of toe nail snag on the left foot. Will see if trimming it up helps or if it something that will just require a bit of break in time. She got the socks with hers and I'm going sans-socks... or dare I say "command-toe"?

bugeater

10 March 2010, 23:06

She got the socks with hers and I'm going sans-socks... or dare I say "command-toe"?

:biggrin: well played sir.

Okami, keep us posted! Are you running with more than one pair? Or just abusing the heck out of one? :) What happens if you blow out a toe a few weeks before race-day?

dagger0824

10 March 2010, 23:46

Farthest distance while wearing VFFs- 6 miles...

Mixture of hard packed dirt and loose dirt.

smoked

11 March 2010, 15:49

SOTB

11 March 2010, 15:55

....I suppose I could do what my 3 year old daughter does - and just run....Years ago my answer to those who would ask me "how to run" was to tell them to just run. I have people all the time ask if there is a special way to breath, a manner in which to hold one's torso, etc. Those are probably all great questions -- I simply cannot understand them, though.

IMO, running isn't rocket science -- although I am sure the engineers at New Balance and Nike would be quite happy to show me where I'm wrong. I really wouldn't have an argument against them -- except that I still think running just isn't that hard....

Savoy6

11 March 2010, 17:52

:biggrin: Thank you. Always looking for the humor angle.

okami1

11 March 2010, 22:52

Okami, do you recommend the book Chi Running? I saw a review by a barefoot runner on amazon.com that slammed the book - which is making me question the purchase.

I'm also considering the POSE book. Any thoughts on that?

But, I suppose I could do what my 3 year old daughter does - and just run. :smile:

I haven't read either of them. I am going off of a chi running friend's input when we last ran together. I find that the shoulders back and chest lifted thing works really well to keep a lighter feeling in my stride, and I know that it advocates a forefoot to midfoot strike, which I make use of when running downhill. The POSE running thing sounds pretty cool, I've been meaning to get the book for a while now. One thing that occurred to me during my run yesterday was that I really don't keep a fixed stride the entire time. When running downhill I tend to run more muscularly and really concentrate on foot placement and shock absorption, and on the long flat stretches I get into the maximum efficiency type stride I described in my very first post. Situation dictates the tactics.

IMO, running isn't rocket science -- although I am sure the engineers at New Balance and Nike would be quite happy to show me where I'm wrong. I really wouldn't have an argument against them -- except that I still think running just isn't that hard....

Bingo. I think that a lot of people just plain old hate running. If you don't enjoy it, I think there is a limit to what training can overcome. I'm lucky I just love that shit. :biggrin:

okami1

11 March 2010, 23:03

Okami, keep us posted! Are you running with more than one pair? Or just abusing the heck out of one? :) What happens if you blow out a toe a few weeks before race-day?

I have two pair, both KSOs. One pair is the lightweight mesh and the other is the thicker neoprene. I got the neoprene at the beginning of winter to deal with the weather. I usually wear the mesh and have been beating the shit out of them for almost a year now. The neoprene gets a little hot on nice days, but I do think they provide a little more stability. It seems like my foot doesn't move around as much inside as I'm running due to the rigidity of the material. Totally minor thing though. I love them both.

smoked

12 March 2010, 12:04

I haven't read either of them. I am going off of a chi running friend's input when we last ran together. I find that the shoulders back and chest lifted thing works really well to keep a lighter feeling in my stride, and I know that it advocates a forefoot to midfoot strike, which I make use of when running downhill. The POSE running thing sounds pretty cool, I've been meaning to get the book for a while now. One thing that occurred to me during my run yesterday was that I really don't keep a fixed stride the entire time. When running downhill I tend to run more muscularly and really concentrate on foot placement and shock absorption, and on the long flat stretches I get into the maximum efficiency type stride I described in my very first post. Situation dictates the tactics.

Gotcha'. I think there's been a wealth of information posted by you and others in this thread. So, thanks for saving me from spending the loot. :smile:

the engineers at New Balance and Nike would be quite happy to show me where I'm wrong.

And, I'm convinced the engineers would be wrong. There is a growing body of evidence demonstrating the harm all the various shoe types (motion control, stability, etc) cause runners.

In the book Born to Run, the author writes about how in the early 80s' we (the USA) had a handful of runners who ran sub 2:12 marathons. You know how many we had twenty years later in 2004? None.

Parts of the rest of the world improved marathon times (ie. shoeless Kenyans) when we got worse. Certainly, we’ve advanced in training regimens and nutrition (maybe not– grains?;)). So, what happened? Nike happened – and their introduction of cushion heeled running shoes that laid the groundwork for the various types of running shoes mentioned above.

Shoe contracts exploded (ie. Air Jordans) bringing on an explosion of shoe sales. O’course, wanting to capitalize on the cool new shoe shit it became profitable to create all kinds of different shoes for every foot type. Meanwhile, injuries increased and performance decreased.

So, while running may not be difficult, shoes can make it painful. Sure, millions run in these different shoes types, but studies show 80% WILL get injured this year. One doesn’t’ even have to go barefoot and just go minimalist like the Nike Frees Max Power mentioned – but I’m convinced EVERYONE would improve times, form and increase their chances of running injury-free by going barefoot – barring rocks, glass, twigs, etc. - wear Five Fingers.

With my history of shin-splints, going back nearly 20 years, I'm completely sold on barefoot running. Hell, the other day I ran two miles. First run in 3 months. Typically, I would've had to walk every couple of minutes and my back and shins would've hurt. I felt NO PAIN and only took three 20 second walks throughout a 2 mile run. For ME, that's just unheard of. It gives me great confidence going into the Spring with a foundation to improve upon and I haven't even been running (I'm sure the gazillion burpees contributed).

So, the engineers at the shoe companies can suck it. :biggrin:

Regarding running not being difficult… running barefoot forces you to run correctly or at least without having to put too much thought into it.

I recall you ran barefoot recently... how'd that go?

SOTB

12 March 2010, 12:36

I recall you ran barefoot recently... how'd that go?It wasn't very far -- I think it was either 3-5 rounds of 400m with I think burpees and something else thrown in on each round. I had no problems, other than the obvious hot spots on the pads of the balls of my feet. No knee or other stuff. One dude in the group stubbed his toe and was bleeding from a torn toenail, but I don't think anyone else had any issues.

I'm on the fence as to whether shoes of today are actually making things worse. My problem is that I haven't researched this as much as some of you have. The whole minimalist thing is right up my alley, though -- I prefer to not have to drag a crapload of stuff to the game just to be able to work out....

okami1

12 March 2010, 13:30

I felt NO PAIN

Music to my ears brother. That's awesome.

I'm on the fence as to whether shoes of today are actually making things worse.

I ran down the block the other day in my old Brooks just to see what it felt like. It was like running in moonbounce shoes or something. I would guess that if someone runs long distance regularly, their stride is already moving towards minimal impact and efficiency, cushioned shoes or barefoot. If the stride is being modified, then maybe some of the more harmful things that cushioned running shoes promote can be mitigated. That said, I was running down by the water last year and a platoon of Marine ROTC cadets ran by, shoes and all. Didn't look like they were having any problems getting into the run. Goes back to what you said about not thinking running is all that hard.

smoked

12 March 2010, 13:31

...hot spots on the pads of the balls of my feet. No knee or other stuff. One dude in the group stubbed his toe and was bleeding from a torn toenail, but I don't think anyone else had any issues.

Without having to buy Five Fingers, try putting on some snug socks - the thicker the better to start - and duct tape the soles with maybe a little rise up around the foot for more protection.

BTW, when I say I've run barefoot, I mean that I'm running with Five Fingers - admittedly not exactly the same - but you know..

Carpe Noctem

12 March 2010, 14:00

Okay, I don't usually post here as most of SOCNET is far out of my lane, but I've been working with minimalist running lately as well.

I don't have the budget right now for VFF's, EVOs or any of the other highspeed minimalist shoes out there. I was able to make a pair of huarache sandals out of some baler belt and 550 cord, though (the "born to run" book talks about the Tarahumara and their running sandals). Dirt cheap and works GREAT once you have them laced up to your liking.

I live in a semi-rural area, and mostly run on dirt roads. It's been wet as hell, so it's been more like dirt and clay mud with thumb-sized rocks. The huaraches are thin enough to be unobtrusive (maybe a 2-3mm sole), but mute the sensation of sharp rocks to a surprising degree. Even stepping in thick mud wasn't a real problem; any excess mud just falls out, and traction's pretty good since the foot can bend and flex freely.

They're so thin that heel striking is completely out of the question. I found myself landing on the 4th-5th metatarsal heads and rolling in gently from there, with minimal heel contact. I only ran a single, ten-minute mile with them; a stroll, really. Even that fried my calves. I'm looking forward to increasing my distance though, it's really a fun way to run.

Anyway, that's about as dirt cheap as it gets without going barefoot. :)

PSYOP ROB

12 March 2010, 18:05

I just got a pair from a local shop here on Island. I cant believe how excited I am to try these out, I DO NOT like running. Maybe this will help change my mind since I have commited to running more this year.

smoked

12 March 2010, 19:51

Music to my ears brother. That's awesome.

No doubt. Two days later, I'm ready for another run as soreness is minimal. This must be due to the fact that I've probably only spent about 3 total hours in heeled shoes in the last 5-6 weeks.

Being OCD, I've gone completely "barefoot" by wearing the Vivo casual shoes to work and VFFs at the gym - regardless of workout.

Also, my wife has knee problems - more noticeable since she's doing that gawdammed burpee challenge - and I'm trying to talk her into getting VFFs. Typically, it happens that I go full bore into something, try to get her to buy into it, she rolls her eyes and tells everyone I'm nuts (those goofy toed shoes don't help my cause :biggrin:). Eventually she realizes I'm right and succumbs to my pressure.

She thanks me with mad sex... Damn, I love her.:biggrin:

Caber

13 March 2010, 07:50

Interesting thread. I've recently started barefoot running and I'm sold (up to 3 mile runs so far). I posted this on the VFF thread, but it warrants a "bump". A Harvard Univ. study recently released is worth the read.

The researchers ask the question, "How and why humans can and did run without modern footwear?" (Nike, et al) and explores the collisional mechanics of different foot strikes. There are lots of pictures and videos for guys like me :biggrin:

http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/

smoked

13 March 2010, 11:33

...but studies show 80% WILL get injured this year.

Ummmmm, that study Caber linked to showed this:

"Unfortunately, studies suggest that at least 30% of runners get injured every year, and many of these injuries stem from problems that arise in the foot or lower leg ( van Gent et al., 2007)."

Looks like I got my facts crossed. I lent the book to a friend so I can't fact check, but perhaps I was thinking about the number of runners who get injured over a lifetime???? I don't know. Just wanted to point out my error.

Thanks for the link Caber.

smoked

13 March 2010, 16:10

Ummmmm, that study Caber linked to showed this:

"Unfortunately, studies suggest that at least 30% of runners get injured every year, and many of these injuries stem from problems that arise in the foot or lower leg ( van Gent et al., 2007)."

Looks like I got my facts crossed. I lent the book to a friend so I can't fact check, but perhaps I was thinking about the number of runners who get injured over a lifetime???? I don't know. Just wanted to point out my error.

Thanks for the link Caber.

Okay, my memory isn't shot...

Some quotes from the book I was recalling...

Posted here (http://blogs.mainetoday.com/blogs/maine-running/born-to-run-barefoot-running)...

"why are so many runners injured every year (some data suggests as many as 80% of runners get injured every year), does running make a great man or woman or does a great man or woman make a great runner, and ultimately - aren't we all "Born to Run" by our very nature, history and bio-mechanical makeup"?

And, more posted here (http://www.running-blogs.com/crowther/2010/02/born_to_hype_christopher_mcdou.html):
"Up to eight of ten runners are hurt every year..... Next time you line up for a Turkey Trot, look at the runners on your right and left: statistically, only one of you will be back for the Jingle Bell Jog."

"Every year, anywhere from 65 to 80 percent of all runners suffer an injury. That's nearly every runner, every single year."

Apparently these statistics are questioned by some. And, I left out "as many as" and "up to."

Anyhow, being wrong bothers me, so that's why I'm posting this. :smile:

okami1

13 March 2010, 21:02

Those 2 phrases - "as many as" and "up to" leave a hell of a lot of room for speculation. Statistic fail. :biggrin: I don't doubt that a large percentage of ALL runners suffer an injury each year. I certainly fell into that category before I started with the VFFs. Staying injury free has been a matter of staying present and working on my form. That's where all this runner-geek examination of the body in motion comes from. Now that I feel like I know how a lot of common injuries happen, I am prepared to take the preventative steps to avoid injury at all. So far so good.

Anyhow, being wrong bothers me, so that's why I'm posting this.

Polypro used to have a sig line that said something like, "Hold on honey, I'll be right there. Someone on the internet is wrong."

Shit cracked me up.

bugeater

13 March 2010, 23:42

Hey Rob, just make sure you ease into it w/ the new kicks. You'll find some more muscles in your legs the couple days after your first few miles :)

PSYOP ROB

13 March 2010, 23:54

Absolutely,
I am using the intro to barefoot running train up that was posted in the biomechanics of running thread and taking it very easy.

Doink

14 March 2010, 00:27

I'm going to start barefoot running either tomorrow or Monday, depending on weather conditions, and I this thread has a lot of advice, thanks.

Oh, and Okami, did it happen to be related to this?
http://xkcd.com/386/

Gryfen-FL

14 March 2010, 09:13

Regarding the smoked calves and foot stiffness after overding it:

I keep two tennis balls on the kitchen floor under the coffee pot now. If i've fucked up and gone too hard or long, my feel let me know in no uncertain terms at 0400 the next morning.

So I hobble to the coffee pot and stand on tennis balls for, literally, few seconds. Then I'm good to hook for the rest of the day.

okami1

14 March 2010, 10:50

Gryfen crushes balls to feel better. Got that boys? :biggrin:

Seriously though, that is a really cool idea. Kind of like the foam roller for your feet.

Gryfen-FL

14 March 2010, 12:03

Damn. Ouch.

I haven't had a date in god knows how long....must you pick on me like that?

Did 2miles in VFF this morning. 16:00

Concentrated on the pelvic tilt you were talking about. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!

random

14 March 2010, 14:41

I haven't had a date in god knows how long....must you pick on me like that?

Dates are seriously overrated.

Waiting for warmer weather to switch to VFF's, but I'll be stealing your tennis ball idea.

Courtesy of that pelvic tilt advice, the stretching advice, and the shoe-checking advice, I'm now running free of back pain, including the 4+ milers. :biggrin:

okami1

14 March 2010, 17:02

Sorry Gryf, no harm meant. You don't want to date the type of guy that would be scared off by that anyway. :biggrin: The pelvic tilt thing really does work wonders for the barefoot stride. Even when I was in full cushion shoes, I read about that in a magazine and my training became tolerable, and then eventually a lot of fun.

bugeater

16 March 2010, 11:21

<flame suit on>

So I had to drop my bike off at the shop, as it's gas tank is leaking and I can't find the stuff to fix it here in Japan. So I duct tape the tiny holes up, put just enough gas in it to ride it there, and jump on. It's a few miles away and the wife is outta town, so how am I gonna get back? That's right, hoof it.

Well damn. Riding a motorcycle in five fingers is the HEAT! The dexterity and amount of feeling you have is killer.

Given, should I have crashed, the dexterity and feeling of the asphalt I would have had would have been killer too :)

But yeah. Someone needs to make kevlar impregnated five fingers that we can ride in :)

<flame suit off>

JamesHugh

16 March 2010, 19:04

Thought this was an interesting article.

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2009/05/07/vibram-five-fingers-shoes/

bugeater

16 March 2010, 19:54

Persistance hunting? Wow.

That's how real men live :)

okami1

16 March 2010, 21:21

Tim Ferris is badass. Chris McDougall's book Born to Run goes into the persistence hunting theory in depth. Pretty cool.

shortcut

18 March 2010, 04:53

smoked

18 March 2010, 09:50

any thoughts about Teva Dozers? Cheaper with more structure, and they drain pretty well too. I wear them when I go for a run in the rain and when I do some fishing off the bank. Covers the toes but about damn near impossible to get fire ants out without sprinting to pound them to death.

Well, for barefoot running, you want less structure. They look like they have too much heel and sole cushioning for me, but if you can run in them without pain, more power to ya'.

JCasp

25 March 2010, 06:56

I've been working with my VFFs since the weather started hitting the 50s. It's bizarre as hell, forcing myself to stop at a measly two miles, come morning my calves and feet feel like I did 10, but in a good way.

Is there something similar to VFFs that I can wear for the APFT, but resemble normal shoes. I just know my 1SG would spot these before I even got out of my car.

SOTB

25 March 2010, 07:07

Staying injury free has been a matter of staying present and working on my form....I feel like I know how a lot of common injuries happen, I am prepared to take the preventative steps to avoid injury....So far so good....Although I chopped the poster's comments, I agree with this thinking -- and use it myself. So far, so good....

Gryfen-FL

25 March 2010, 07:43

I just know my 1SG would spot these before I even got out of my car. There are a few companies out there making sure they don't miss out on a buck. Try 'minimalist' and 'barefoot running'

rubicon

25 March 2010, 08:03

bm2bob

25 March 2010, 08:19

Anyone using the VFF's that currently has or had an issue with Plantar Fasciitis? I am now approx. 18 mos. into a fight with it and have now experienced about 2 mos. without feeling like I stepped on a roofing nail when I get out of bed. Have not put in any heavy workouts yet. VFF's gonna set me back?

Rubicon

I think VFFs are helping my PF. I've had it for about 2.5 years, and after 6 months with the VFFs I can do a full CF WOD, (slow runs though) without pain in the morning.

Gryfen-FL

25 March 2010, 08:41

If you go to hard too fast, it will light you up in the mornings. Just keep a tennis ball by the coffee pot until your feet strengthen.

SOTB

25 March 2010, 09:09

Just keep a tennis ball by the coffee pot until your feet strengthen.I've never heard this before -- neither was I aware of the foam roller thingies -- I'm going to try this. If it doesn't work out, I can always just put the tennis balls on the feet of my walker....

smoked

25 March 2010, 14:42

Is there something similar to VFFs that I can wear for the APFT, but resemble normal shoes. I just know my 1SG would spot these before I even got out of my car.

There are the Evo's from Terra Plana, but they're $160/pair.

http://www.terraplana.com/mens-vivo-barefoot-c-153_157.html

So, I took at FM 21-20 to see if footwear, or lack thereof, is restricted. I found this:

"Many running injuries can be prevented by wearing proper footwear.
Soldiers should train in running shoes. These are available in a wide range of prices and styles. They should fit properly and have flexible, multi-layered soles with good arch and heel support. Shoes made with leather and nylon uppers are usually the most comfortable. See Appendix E for more information on running shoes."

You're screwed. :biggrin:

The POSE website lists a bunch of minimalist shoes they recommend here (http://www.posetech.com/runningshoes/how_to_choose_best_running_shoes_for_you.html), left side of window.

Ranger5280

25 March 2010, 16:29

And then have some strange baby birds swallow them and spit them back up for you...

Max Power

25 March 2010, 18:30

I've got Nike Free's, no problems with the Army so far, and they feel pretty good but still not close to true barefooting, even VFF's aren't all the way there.

bugeater

26 March 2010, 21:18

...sore calves today. Haven't had much soreness at all, and then yesterday after running a quicker 2.2 miles, I'm limping.

Weak genes I guess :)

Gryfen-FL

27 March 2010, 18:25

And then have some strange baby birds swallow them and spit them back up for you...:confused:Huh?

Fealin froggy and took the fingers out for a jog today. Went for a firebreak in the woods, stretches of old asphalt, loose sand, gravel, and pine straw on hard packed sand that was about as slick as goose shit.

:eek:oh yea, and some little hills.....don't ask my time, I won't tell you. :p

SOTB

27 March 2010, 18:28

:confused:Huh?You need to get out more. It's from a movie....:smile:

Gryfen-FL

27 March 2010, 19:13

thow me a bone here....what movie?

I'm getting 'out' to the mexican place down the rode for dinner. And if I'm feeling VERY adventurous: Then I'll to catch up on my laundry.

SOTB

27 March 2010, 19:25

thow me a bone here....what movie?Up (http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=86692). Disney movie. Cool flick.I'm getting 'out' to the mexican place down the rode for dinner.There are no Mexican restaurants North of the Rio Grande. :biggrin:And if I'm feeling VERY adventurous: Then I'll to catch up on my laundry.Sigh. I have a shitload of laundry to knock out as well. But I am doing the professional thing of procrastinating until tomorrow....

smoked

29 March 2010, 13:03

A few new offerings to be released soon. (http://barefootrunningshoes.org/2009/10/06/spring-2010-vibram-fivefingers-speed-bikila-performa-jane/)

The 'Bikila' is the first VFF designed specifically for forefoot running. It will debut in stores (limited release) at the end of April.

The 'Speed" is too fugly so I don't care when it's released.

CsC0321

29 March 2010, 13:58

The 'Speed's' are heinous. The 'bikila's' are probably the most attractive of all the fivefingers. Looking forward to seeing some other color options.

Ranger5280

29 March 2010, 19:46

I'm going to check out the Bikila and I may get into the game with them.

John6719

2 April 2010, 12:00

Ordered my KSO's today. Now I have to wait for them to arrive.... Can't wait to do squad runs in my new five fingers!

okami1

2 April 2010, 12:43

The 'Bikila' is the first VFF designed specifically for forefoot running. It will debut in stores (limited release) at the end of April.

Looks like the KSO Advanced. I will buy them as soon as I can. My KSOs are thrashed.

The 'Speed" is too fugly so I don't care when it's released.

Might I suggest the Performa Jane in their stead? :tongue:

Seriously, they look like they were made for barefoot umpires.

dagger0824

3 April 2010, 01:54

Looks like the KSO Advanced. I will buy them as soon as I can. My KSOs are thrashed.

Same here- can't complain, they've lasted 18+ months of beatings.

smoked

3 April 2010, 12:38

Might I suggest the Performa Jane in their stead? :tongue:

Ha! Funny you say that, I saw these (http://www.skechers.com/info/shape_ups) and thought of you... :biggrin::biggrin:

..KSO Advanced.
And, uh, yeah, I actually googled "KSO Advanced"... duh :smile:

okami1

3 April 2010, 13:41

Ha! Funny you say that, I saw these (http://www.skechers.com/info/shape_ups) and thought of you... :biggrin::biggrin:

LMAO! Fucker. :biggrin: Those things are the stupidest thing for feet since those moon bounce boots came out. How many chicks do you think wear those and STILL can't figure out why their ass is huge?

okami1

3 April 2010, 13:44

Same here- can't complain, they've lasted 18+ months of beatings.

I've had to sew up the big toe on one and do some gluing around the sole area, but they have been super sturdy. 18 + months of regular running out of a padded running shoe is unheard of. VFFs are definitely well made. Helps when there is no padding to deform. :biggrin:

dagger0824

3 April 2010, 14:58

I've had to sew up the big toe on one and do some gluing around the sole area, but they have been super sturdy. 18 + months of regular running out of a padded running shoe is unheard of. VFFs are definitely well made. Helps when there is no padding to deform. :biggrin:

On my left shoe the big toe has a tear on the side. I hand sewed that up but eventually it became bigger. The second to left toe was coming up from the base of the sole which I remedied by hand sewing some more. I do agree, I've never had a pair of running shoes that I could keep past a year, let alone 18 months. This thread is what caused me to buy the VFFs in the first place. My right shoe for some reason is perfect though, no tearing, not anything.

RammerJammer

3 April 2010, 16:11

Ran 3 miles with my new vff...I'll never run in anything else. Calves have exploded on me tho. wonderful wonderful pain today

okami1

3 April 2010, 16:27

Calves have exploded on me tho. wonderful wonderful pain today

That's how you get muscles on the front of your shins... :cool:

8Ball

3 April 2010, 19:49

Has anyone had any luck getting KSO's? Vibrams site is out of stock on most everything KSO related. Just looking for Black on Black. Any other sites that I have missed on my Google adventures? Thanks!

Savoy6

3 April 2010, 20:33

8Ball - check Ebay. We bought ours off of there for $85 about a month ago. We were having the same issues of locating them in stock. Be sure to get the exact fit. Good luck.

8Ball

3 April 2010, 20:51

8Ball - check Ebay. We bought ours off of there for $85 about a month ago. We were having the same issues of locating them in stock. Be sure to get the exact fit. Good luck.

Thanks, Brother. These are the only ones I see in my size. 129.00 + 14.00 Shipping!:eek:
http://cgi.ebay.com/NIB-Vibram-Fivefingers-KSO-five-fingers-M41-black_W0QQitemZ140395480327QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_M en_s_Shoes?hash=item20b0390507

Looks like I have no choice. My wife is getting them for my Birthday this month. Well, that and a new M&P .45. :smile:

Regarding the sizing: I used the method from the VFF site. I came up with a HAIR over 10 1/2 inches for one foot and 10 1/4 for the other. Sooo, I have to go with the larger size (10 1/2 inch = 41) if I am correct? I have been following this thread for awhile and have finally decided to bite the bullet in hopes of helping my running/injuries. Additionally, I just freaking hate wearing shoes. If I am not in my boots, I am in flip flops. These seem like the heat for me.
Thanks for the response!

okami1

3 April 2010, 21:02

Thanks, Brother. These are the only ones I see in my size. 129.00 + 14.00 Shipping!:eek:

Holy shit that's expensive.

If I am not in my boots, I am in flip flops. These seem like the heat for me.

I feel the same way. You will love these.

Senior D

3 April 2010, 21:03

I just checked REI and they're on backorder. However, I found quite a few sites that say they're in stock. I just did a google shopping search and found some vendors. I would not pay $130 or whatever from Ebay. ETA:: So I found a few that are in stock but not in 41 although they have 40, 42 and higher. Thats weird.

I also have a foot size discrepancy and I went with the bigger size. When I first tried them on (black KSOs;)) I had a really difficult time getting them on my feet and wondered if I had f'ed up the sizing. After a few times putting them on they loosened up. I love em'!

8Ball

3 April 2010, 21:09

Holy shit that's expensive.

I feel the same way. You will love these.

1) Yes it is! But, supplies seem to be dried up.

2) I can't wait to get them. Looks like I will be sending my wife to the Plasma Clinic to make some $$$. :biggrin:

8Ball

3 April 2010, 21:13

Senior D

3 April 2010, 21:20

Yeah. That's the problem I have been having. 41 seems to be uber-popular. Nice color pick. Great minds...;)
Thanks for the sizing heads up.
Now quit bragging that you actually have THE pair that I want. :smile:

Well, I have been wearing them around lately, explains why everyone wants them now:biggrin:

I will keep looking online for them. If it were me, I would order them direct from their website and wait for them to come in. Good luck!