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Armageddon
18 August 2008, 08:37
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/2566005/Russia-threatens-nuclear-attack-on-Poland-over-US-missile-shield-deal.html



Russia threatens nuclear attack on Poland over US missile shield deal
Russia threatened a nuclear strike against Poland after a landmark deal to site American global anti-missile shields in the country.

By Harry de Quetteville and Andrew Pierce
Last Updated: 8:41PM BST 15 Aug 2008

Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn: Russia's nuclear rethoric marks an intense new phase in the war of words over Georgia Photo: AP
Only 24 hours after the weapons agreement was signed Russia's deputy chief of staff warned Poland "is exposing itself to a strike 100 per cent".

General Anatoly Nogovitsyn said that any new US assets in Europe could come under Russian nuclear attack with his forces targeting "the allies of countries having nuclear weapons".

He told Russia's Interfax news agency: "By hosting these, Poland is making itself a target. This is 100 per cent certain. It becomes a target for attack. Such targets are destroyed as a first priority."

Russia's nuclear rhetoric marks an intense new phase in the war of words over Georgia. The Caucasus conflict has spiralled into a Cold War style confrontation between Moscow and Washington in less than a week.

The stand off between the two cold War powers was underlined by Russian president Dmitry Medvedev, who dismissed US claims that the silo is a deterrent against 'rogue states' like Iran as "a fairy tale". He told reporters at the Black Sea resort of Sochi: "The deployment of new missile defence facilities in Europe is aimed against the Russian Federation."

President George W. Bush in a brief but pointed statement earlier in the day said: "The Cold War is over… Bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 21st century."

Mr Bush, who is demanding an immediate withdrawal of Russian troops from Georgia now that that a ceasefire deal has been signed, added: "Only Russia can decide whether it will now put itself back on the path of responsible nations or continue to pursue a policy that promises only confrontation and isolation,"

Russia's deteriorating relationship with the West was strained further when US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice yesterday visited Georgian capital Tbilisi and concluded a ceasefire deal with Russia. It was the highest profile gesture of American political support for Georgia's embattled government since the conflict began.

Echoing President Bush's demands for a withdrawal from Georgia, she evoked the Soviet-led invasion of Czechoslovakia 40 years ago. "Russian forces need to leave Georgia at once. This is no longer 1968,"she said.

Mikheil Saakashvili, the Georgian president, who was standing next to Miss Rice, said: "We were screaming to the world that Russia was going to do this...We are looking evil directly in the eye - this evil is very dangerous not only for us but for everybody."

Even as he was speaking a convoy of 17 Russian armoured personnel carriers was spotted advancing along the main highway to within 34 miles of the Georgian capital Tblisi, their deepest move yet inside the country.

The Foreign Office also condemned Russia. A spokesman said: "Threats such as these against our EU and Nato Allies are completely unacceptable and unhelpful, especially at the present time''.

The criticism was echoed by MPs, who warned of the potential for a major escalation in the diplomatic crisis.

But there was no word from either Gordon Brown or David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, on the nuclear issue, who were earlier both criticised for not speaking out sooner over the situation in Georgia.

David Cameron, the Tory leader, will today seize the initiative by travel to Georgia, where he is expected to warn Russia to respect its neighbour's territorial integrity.

Poland and the United States reached the agreement, after 18 months of negotiation, on siting 10 interceptor missiles capable of destroying incoming long-range ballistic missiles. Washington says the system, which would be installed by 2012, is designed to protect the US and its allies from "rogue states" such as Iran. The threat of nuclear reprisals were motivated by Moscow's fears the missile shield makes Russia a target of the United States.

Radek Sikorski, the Polish foreign minister, told The Daily Telegraph the new US missile shield deal, and its timing, was unrelated to Georgia. "It [the deal] is a coincidence," he said. "Georgia made a dramatic backdrop to it, but the timing had nothing to do with Georgia. We have offered Russia the right to inspect at any time. It only has the capabilities we say it does, which is to say, nothing to do with Russia."

Donald Tusk, the Polish prime minister, hinted that the US had pledged to back Warsaw in the event of Russian aggression towards Poland. He said that he only agreed to host the US defence shield on the condition that the US agreed to help augment Poland's defences with Patriot missiles, which are intended to ward off any threat from Russia. "We have crossed the Rubicon," he said.

Mmmmmh...no good

Terminator2
18 August 2008, 10:23
Putin can be trusted to do what's in his own best interests. Nuking Poland would be enough to mobilize the rest of the world against him. Then what does he do? Have the Russian military take on everyone? Nuke everyone who moves in on him? Putin wants to rebuild the Russian empire, and he's not going to have Moscow and St. Petersburg vaporized to do it. He's not a madman like Ahmedinejad (sp?) who'd see his whole country turned to glass just to nuke Israel.

This is tough talk, but he's not going to be able to do anything about it yet. If he annexes Georgia and declares that "Georgia has ceased to exist", then turns his sights on Armenia and Turkey, then I'll be worried. Unfortunately, I don't think that that is out of the realm of possibility...

bobofthedesert
18 August 2008, 10:51
"Russian forces need to leave Georgia at once. This is no longer 1968,"she said.

IMHO, it's 1936. Ah, the irony.....

Everything old is new again....

Armageddon
18 August 2008, 11:29
Nuking Poland would be enough to mobilize the rest of the world against him.

Would it?....

Tracy
18 August 2008, 13:21
Nuking Poland would be enough to mobilize the rest of the world against him.

Would it?....

Here's a weather question: Which way does the prevailing winds blow over eastern Europe?

Russia could score it's own goal and irradiate its country vice anyone else's.

Second, Putin didn't state he'd employ nuclear weapons, a subordinate made the comment. He has deniability and can always retract a 'mis-statement'.

I don't think we'll go nuclear with Russia. There would be more of the free world left than the Rodina, and Mr. Putin knows it.

On a positive note, more Raptors, JSF and bomber systems are starting to look pretty good right now. We buried the Bear the last time he took us on in an arms race; and I don't think China would be too enthusiastic about us using our GDP for more weapons.

poison
18 August 2008, 15:03
Eh, he's pulling an Arafat. He's going to use small, low level conflicts to enlarge his territory, and count on the 'well, it's only <insert balkan state> so it doesn't affect us' reaction, then agree to give up territory partially. Two steps forward, one step back.

Armageddon
18 August 2008, 15:19
Putin didn't state he'd employ nuclear weapons, a subordinate made the comment. He has deniability and can always retract a 'mis-statement'.
Absolutely true...but again...

On a positive note, more Raptors, JSF and bomber systems are starting to look pretty good right now.

Definitely.
Because now Russia has a HUGE ammount of money to retrofit its army, and is actually doing it (Topol, 3 brand new Nuclear subs etc...)

poison
18 August 2008, 15:47
Maybe I'm off here, but didn't this little spat show some weaknesses in the Russian military? It seems they'll need a LOT of retrofitting and revamping to become competitive by WEstern standards. Just based on news reports, Georgia did better than expected, and Russia did far worse.

BackInTheDay
18 August 2008, 23:21
Russia threatens nuclear attack on Poland


One comment: Wind currents, eastern Europe

Snake
18 August 2008, 23:42
Maybe I'm off here, but didn't this little spat show some weaknesses in the Russian military? It seems they'll need a LOT of retrofitting and revamping to become competitive by WEstern standards. Just based on news reports, Georgia did better than expected, and Russia did far worse.

They are coming out of a ~20 year nadir, in terms of military efficiency. Much like the US Armed Forces of the late 60's and 70's.

Takes time to regenerate an effective Force.

This looks to be like Grenada was for us; a short, high-intensity conflict that let them run the machine to see where the weak spots are.

KidA
18 August 2008, 23:57
P.S. Russia (Mother Russia) is a woman.

Ask the Sisters of Mercy.

sf-doc
19 August 2008, 15:07
It is called appeasement.

Parajuevos
19 August 2008, 17:01
In some ways, minus the actual fighting, this invasion by Russia resembles the German entry into the Rhineland, prior to WW2 and their other excursion into the Sudentanland in 1938. Both were carried out in the name of protecting German peoples in those areas. The Russians, in this case, are using similar reasons i.e., the interests of the Russian citizens and their sympathizers in South Ossetia.

Appeasement in the case of the Sudentanland and at least some acceptance for the Rhineland, by other European countries, gave Hitler and Nazi Germany some measurement as to the resistance they might expect when they embarked on future incursions. They were under the impression that they would not be resisted in future invasions. This turned out to be wrong.

Is Russia's motive to launch more invasions, in the other former republics of the USSR, if they pull this off, with no resistance from the rest of the world, or is it that pipe line, that is running through Georgia? Maybe it's a combination of both

I hope that history isn't repeating itself.

Armageddon
20 August 2008, 05:41
Is Russia's motive to launch more invasions, in the other former republics of the USSR, if they pull this off, with no resistance from the rest of the world, or is it that pipe line, that is running through Georgia? Maybe it's a combination of both

Probably both. And a way to tell the world that The Big Bear is back in town.

dougage
20 August 2008, 06:39
P.S. Russia (Mother Russia) is a woman.

Ask the Sisters of Mercy.

Hey now, hey now now, sing that corrosion!

sawbones
20 August 2008, 10:19
Do we even have anything/enough to protect the gap anymore (Fulda) ? Like was prev posted, looks like the Bear is looking for the chinks in its armor and trying out its manuaver warfare. Not to sound alarmist, but we're a little thin to in Europe right now based on open source material.

Worst case scenario here. Pull out in ME for a dance with the Bear. Going from the woods to desert manuver was a shock. Relearning to fight in the woods after 5 years in ME would be harder.

Mrswildweasel
20 August 2008, 11:21
I think the worst thing we ever did was close so many of our bases and intel sites after the wall came down. If anything we should have been looking to add some real estate.
It was just a matter of time before we would be facing this again.

Armageddon
20 August 2008, 14:48
X2
They know it, and that's probably one of the reason they dare puffing their chest a bit more frankly

MikeC2W
20 August 2008, 14:55
Russia Says Response to U.S. Missile Shield Deal With Poland Will Go Beyond Diplomacy

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,407262,00.html

Interesting....times we live in.

The Corporate Guy
20 August 2008, 15:34
We buried the Bear the last time he took us on in an arms race.

But times have changed. Russia is now flush with cash and we have already spent our wad (and have a new mountain of debt to show for it).

SOTB
20 August 2008, 16:15
Meh, I think Russia is not nearly having as great internal time as we are alluding to. There are still insurgency issues of their own, their economy isn't all that we are building them up to, there is still a fuckload of corruption (this is not to be underestimated -- it really causes some serious problems for them), and there is the whole idea that Putin is really ass popular as he is because he just states what angry people (angry because of those issues I referred to) want to hear. Think Hitler and his comments to a pre-WWII Germany.

Unlike Hitler, I doubt --seriously doubt -- that Russia will do anything in the short-term. They pulled off Georgia, because Georgia allowed it to happen. We TOLD the Georgians we were not going to help. The Russians took a low-lying apple, that's all. Poland isn't in the same situation, in the slightest.

No, the Ruskies are just yanking our chains and Putin maintains some degree of popularity amongst the majority of uneducated morons that make up the masses. Will this popularity hold? Good question. Russians have a nationalist spine, if anything. So maybe these types of actions and words will win the vote (ha, I said votes counted in Russia -- LOL).

I don't think that there is enough income from energy to allow them to really rebuild their military machine. But they can certainly get some of it up and running. At some point the question becomes as to whether they think they have enough of it going to take us and NATO on. I don't think THAT moment is now -- maybe in 10 years....

tm3e
21 August 2008, 00:42
"As a Russian colonel watched his men withdraw from the hills, he spat on the ground and scoffed: “In Chechnya the Chechens knew how to fight but the Georgians never made it interesting for us. They were no challenge at all. It's time to go home.”

NightLandNav
21 August 2008, 04:09
But times have changed. Russia is now flush with cash and we have already spent our wad (and have a new mountain of debt to show for it).

Times indeed have changed, and this is the reality of the current situation.

Still, for Russia there is too little benefit to justify a renewed "stalemate".