Counterintelligence

[Bob1234]

Does CI get any SERE training slots? If so, do they get alot??

[mtech_81]

Bob1234:

I suggest you check out this website:
http://www.fasolant.navy.mil/brunssere.htm

as well as this one:
http://www.faso.navy.mil/2D0039.htm

At least with the Navy/Marine Corps, I don't see counterintelligence personnel listed. And if my aging memory is still viable, counterintelligence personnel aren't considered "high risk of capture" types.

If you REALLY want to go through SERE (God only knows why), I'd suggest you consider other alternatives.

<still trying to figure out why anyone would WANT to go through>

[Bob1234]

What do they (the second website) mean when they say specialy selected intelligence personel?

[mtech_81]

While never having been an intelligence officer of any sort during my career (thank God), I would figure any military intelligence personnel whose knowledge and/or work was sensitive enough that, if captured, it would be in the best interests of the U.S. Government to train them to keep their mouths shut long enough for us to make that information obsolete or to get them out.

While I could speculate further, I'm not even going to, but I will leave you with a tip. Find out who Lt. Col. Iceal Hambleton is and what happened to him in the Vietnam War. Ask yourself, "Should people like him go through SERE, especially if they had a high likelihood of getting captured?" I suspect your answer will match mine if you have a shred of common sense.

Quite frankly, I hated SERE training. I never, ever want to go back. It was educational, informative, and challenging, but that's it. I didn't enjoy it, I didn't get off on it, and I certainly never looked forward to it. But hey, I'm no masochist.

[CraigSL02]

Bob, have you ever thought of the Air Force and intelligence applications? http://www.specialtactics.com/intel.shtml
read up and if you are interested I can tell you a bit more
Cheers


------------------
Any time, Any place

[RogueExec]

Typically, in the 97B (CI) Army MOS, you're not doing anything that would require you to have the skills associated with SERE.

[SOE]

USMC and Naval Intelligence MOS's rate SERE. For most Marine Intel MOS's it is a requirement. Due to the forward nature of most Marine and Navy intelligence assignments, this is a necessary requirement.

Semper Fi

Josh
SGT
USMCR

[Bob1234]

There's the answer I've been looking for!
Thanks.

[Swat1]

USMC Intelligence Personnel I would agree with, however, Naval Intelligence Personnel I would not. Having worked with both (more USMC than Navy) I am a great fan of the Marine Corps CI brothers and thier excellent tactical HUMINT capabilities. They definately have a mission which can take them to the FEBA and possibly beyond. However, all the Navy Intel guys I ever worked with were indoors. NCIS personnel who investigate National Security Crimes are strategic in nature. The Navy does not have a tactical HUMINT/collection capability nor does it need to as the Army and USMC conduct those missions for them. Most of their intelligence assets are analysts and experts in Naval and Air Order of Battle and predicting what the enemy will do, they also have excellent signal and imagery intelligence program (intercept and analysis). But, SERE for Naval Intelligence Personnel. I know Army Cooks who would put SERE training to better use.

Swat1*

[mtech_81]

Being a graduate of the Navy's SERE program at NAS Brunswick, ME (early '80s), I do remember one or two Navy intel squirrels in my class. (Strange, but that's the Navy for you.) Never saw any NCIS types, either then or during refresher training. Mostly aviation personnel, the standard component of Naval Special Warfare and Marines, a few other oddballs lurking in and amongst us.

SERE is the one school you hope to God you never have to actually call upon while in the line of duty. If you do, things went from bad straight to "Oh bugger, I am in Hades."

P.S.--If you do get a SERE slot, become an aviator. The phrase "Yankee air pirate" still makes me laugh. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by mtech_81 (edited 06-14-2001).]

[Gunny Hicks]

GRAB YOUR RAGS!!!

[mtech_81]

Originally posted by Gunny Hicks:
GRAB YOUR RAGS!!!

Sniff, sniff.....the memories! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[DIRSUP KORLING]

Hmmm....so you don't think the Navy intel guys on that P-3 that went down in China had ever been to SERE school?

[mtech_81]

Dirsup.....of course. I should have been more explicit in explaining my train of thought. I always considered them aviation. When I was thinking of naval intel, I was thinking of someone who doesn't fly in a surveillance platform just outside of someone's airspace. Anyone who wears a pair of aviation wings is in the "mafia" regardless of what they may do while in flight in my book. I'm one of those biased, washed up naval aviators though, so take my opinion for what it's worth. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

<who managed to never crash into a big, lumbering prop plane while in the fleet>


[This message has been edited by mtech_81 (edited 06-16-2001).]

[DIRSUP KORLING]

er..sorry....that was last post was aimed at swat1.

mario

[E19]

Hey Bob,

Are you the Bob from "Becker"?

[Swat1]

Dirsup,

Didn't mean to ruffle feathers, however, I stick by my statements. Of course there will always be exceptions and intelligence personnel assigned to airborne platforms or other high risk of capture platforms MAY receive SERE training, although, probably all do not. I am sure they have all received required survival training, which is required for pilots and air crews.

Swat1*

[saro]

Navy intel folks assigned to aviation squadrons are eligible for SERE - however, the pilots & other aviators have priority for the billets. I know several people who have gone, but those were folks who either volunteered or whose squadron decided they needed to go. Would say it's the exception rather than the rule outside of the reconnaissance squadrons. I flew (intel) for three years and went through survival school, but not SERE.

[Shamrock0211]

I was a Marine CI Agent. I can tell you most of our CI guys are SERE qualed.

Shamrock

[Purple36]

During the night of January 31, 1968, a Villa in Hue, Vietnam occupied by the 135th MI Group regional team came under attack. The shelling awakened Sergeant Donald Rander, assistant Special Agent in Charge of the Hue Rgional Headquarters. Grabbing flak jackets and weapons, the members
grouped on the second floor. They remained there for the rest of the night under intense enemy fire; occasionally going downstairs to destroy classified documents.
At dawn, low on ammunition and under intense fire, they left their building nd fought their way to the building next door occupied by civilian employees of the US Defense Department. Throughout the day and into the nght, they were under constant attack from the North Vietnamese Regulars. During the fighting, 24 year old Corporal Barry Wolk, a MI Special Agent,
from Hingham, Massachusetts was killed by enemy fire.
"It was like Custer's last stand," Sergeant Rander later recalled. "All the North Vietnamese in the world seemed to be outside the door."
Low on ammunition and little chance of further resistance, the group surrendered on February 1, 1968. Military Intelligence personnel captured were Captain Theodore Gostas, Sergeants Robert Hayhurst, Edward Dierling and Donald Rander.

The men were dragged through the streets, dodging the fighting to the Villa of Foreign Service Officer Philip Manhard. Manhard and some employees of the Construction Company Pacific Architects and Engineers had already been captured. The NVA stuffed all the captured men into a shower stall for the night.
During their stay here, the Military Intelligence personnel put together a cover story to explain their civilian clothing and identification. They agreed to tell the NVA that they were civilians conducting personnel security investigations on Vietnamese applying for jobs with the US Government. The cover story seemed to work.
The POW's were taken to a POW camp near Phu Bai nicknamed "Camp Runamuck 1." There they encountered CIA agent Eugene Weaver who had been captured in Hue.
Weaver blew his cover when a Viet Cong recognized him from a previous interrogation. Treatment of CIA agents was brutal, as Weaver would soon learn.
The POW's remained at this camp for two weeks. The camp was located in a dense jungle mountain area. They were shoved into a 20' x 30' long bunker. There were 20 POW's in this dark and dirty hole. It was so small that they had to take turns sleeping. During their stay, they received meager rations of dirt-laden rice.
On February 19, the Military Intelligence personnel and others departed this camp. Captain Gostas was left behind, because he was too ill to travel. Gostas later left this camp on March 10 and rejoined his comrades in North Vietnam in April. Sergeant's Rander, Hayhurst and Dierling began their trek to North Vietnam by foot. They were barefoot, walking through mud and sharp
rocks. They were being tracked by a tiger and encountered leeches throughout the journey. They slept on the ground without blankets in the rain. They were traveling a narrow twisting trail when Hayhurst and Dierling seized an
opportunity to escape. On February 23, the two slipped away unnoticed and backtracked until they found a stream and a road that they followed back until they found a Marine Artillery camp.
Sergeant Rander and the others proceeded under tighter security to a camp nicknamed "Runamuck 2." He arrived there in early March. Rander was suffering from badly bruised and bloodied feet.
In April, Rander and Gostas were reunited at a POW camp called Bao Cao, in North Vietnam. Rander and Gostas' cover was still holding up as they were housed in an area called Duc's Camp with the other civilian prisoners. The cells consisted of sturdy timber walls and thatched roofs and each building about 30 feet long. Each building contained cells 3 feet wide, 6 feet high
and 6 feet long. The prisoners were treated harshly with meager rations and unhealthy living conditions.

Now that the POW's were in North Vietnam, any hope that they may be rescued was long gone.
Sergeant Rander, with his cover story as a civilian unraveling, was
interrogated repeatedly and forced to stand or kneel at attention for hours on end. Rander had kept his story going by glancing at the notes on his interrogator's tables, which he read upside down, a talent; he acquired as a kid riding the New York subways. Anxious to keep secret his knowledge of classified operations in the South, the sergeant let his interrogator draw
unclassified information out of him slowly, and lying and fabricating names whenever he thought he could get away with it. When asked about Commanders, he used names from the roster of the 1951 Dodgers. He used infielders for
officers and outfielders for NCOs. But his interrogator was skillful and Rander paid the price in brutal treatment. During interrogations, Rander, an African American, used the NVA's own propaganda to help conceal the information he possessed. Rander told them, "Don't you realize that I'm just
a black soldier the white man don't tell me nothing?" " The white guys go out and do all that important stuff. They wouldn't let me do anything likethat."

On July 3, Sergeant Rander and Captain Gostas were moved farther north to a prison named "Skid Row." Skid Row was named for its filth and disrepair. It was located a few miles south of Hanoi. The walls were concrete, peeling paint, broken plaster and strewn rubbish, wood slatted beds and a bucket for a toilet. This camp was so harsh, that later it was used as a punishment camp.
During his captivity, Captain Gostas was hung from a rope for extended periods and was denied water. He was severely beaten several times, kicked in the head and stomach and struck in the head with an AK 47 rifle. Captain Gostas had severe intestinal problems and numerous abscessed teeth during his captivity.

Sergeant Rander and Captain Gostas remained at Skid Row until the end of 1971. They were then trucked 50 miles to the north of Hanoi to a camp called "K-49" or "Mountain Camp." They were then kept in isolation for most of 1972. Some POW's considered this camp an improvement over Skid Row. Despite their isolation, each room had a table, stool, and water closet. It also had a straw mattress. CIA Agent Gene Weaver was also transferred to this camp and was released from captivity on March 16, 1973.

On November 1, 1972, the prisoners got an indication that the Vietnam War may be coming to an end. The POW's were allowed to eat and talk together. The food improved and the Vietnamese also started medical treatment for the POW's.

In late January 1973, Gostas and Rander were transferred to "New Guy Village" at the Hanoi Hilton Prison Camp, and later repatriated to the United States.

The Author: James H. Turner, III, is currently President of the 519th MI Battalion Association. He served in the US Army from 1965 to 1968, with assignments to the 500th Intelligence Group, Detachment I, Special Military Intelligence Activities Team, Vietnam; Company C, 519th MI Battalion, Khe Sanh, Vietnam; 149th MI Group, Joint Technical Advisory Detachment, Khe
Sanh, Vietnam; and 116th MI Group, Washington, DC. He served in law enforcement from 1968 - 1988, and retired as elected Sheriff. Since then, he has served as a security consultant to private corporations..



BTW: I agree wholeheartedly with Swat1....some of the most squared away CI folks come from the Marines....they know their stuff.

[USN Intel Guy]

Naval Intelligence Specialists or Intelligence Officers don't do CI. Our requirements are handled by USMC HET personnel or NCIS SAs. For ISs and Officers. your best shot of getting to SERE school is to get to a squadron or NSW Team/Group billet. Guys that ride ships typically just won't find support from their chain-of-command to attend the school. As was already said though, the intel pukes are about the last guys in line to attend though.

[sire24657]

All I ever got was a little white pill in a small glass vial. They said if you get captured or your helicopter goes down to take it; they said it was aspiriin...

[shark11]

SERE school is an MOS requirement for USMC CI/HUMINT Specialists and generally most USMC intel MOS's. Aircrew, Recon, and Scout Snipers generally rate SERE as well. The war has kind of put a lot of SERE slots on hold, too much need for intel guys downrange

[GackMan]

holy old posts batman!

I know several intel dudes who have gone to SERE for a variety of reasons.

put in a 4187 and find out! :D