"The Money Masters"

[HMdepperNavy]

I've always had a hunger for knowledge, and being up close to the housing crisis has enticed me to seek knowlege; knowlege of how the economy and banking system of this country works. That being said, I have spent the past several months reading and learning, and what I have discovered is troubling. The civilized and industrialized world is heading towards a dark future. The elite bankers behind the Federal Reserve, IMF, and World Bank are enslaving the world through their corrupt banking practices. "They have created a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole." "The Money Masters" is a 3 1/2 hour long film, created in the mid-90s, about these bankers. The film explains the role they have played in both the history of the United States, and the world.

I also suggest watching the film "Money as Debt." "Money as Debt" explains in more detail how today's banking system manipulates economies.

The Money Masters: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=the+money+changers&emb=0&aq=f#

Money as Debt: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=the+money+changers&emb=0&aq=f#q=money%20as%20debt&emb=0

[SATCOM]

Isn't this a movie?

[davidj]

I would suggest checking out "Global Banking" by Roy C. Smith if you're interested in an overview of the history of "banking" from its ancient roots to modern times, and the role bankers have played in modern societal development.

[mdb23]

I've always had a hunger for knowledge, and being up close to the housing crisis has enticed me to seek knowlege; knowlege of how the economy and banking system of this country works. That being said, I have spent the past several months reading and learning, and what I have discovered is troubling.


Technically, if books and movies have already been produced on the topic, you havent discovered anything.... you may have learned something, but not discovered.;)

The production quality on the first "movie?" Wow.

[MakoZeroSix]

I've always had a hunger for knowledge, and being up close to the housing crisis has enticed me to seek knowlege; knowlege of how the economy and banking system of this country works. That being said, I have spent the past several months reading and learning, and what I have discovered is troubling. The civilized and industrialized world is heading towards a dark future. The elite bankers behind the Federal Reserve, IMF, and World Bank are enslaving the world through their corrupt banking practices. "They have created a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole." "The Money Masters" is a 3 1/2 hour long film, created in the mid-90s, about these bankers. The film explains the role they have played in both the history of the United States, and the world.


(golf clap)

Welcome to the reality of Western Civilization, since the days of The House of Rothschild and the Napoleonic wars. The bankers have pulled the strings for centuries now. It is what it is.

[HMdepperNavy]

(golf clap)

Welcome to the reality of Western Civilization, since the days of The House of Rothschild and the Napoleonic wars. The bankers have pulled the strings for centuries now. It is what it is.

True, it is the way it is, but unfortunatley most people do not know how it is. I could be wrong, but I believe that if most people knew the truth about our current system, they would not allow it to continue.

[Black Knight]

My first thought while watching the movie.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPMS6tGOACo&feature=related

[Husker19D30]

Go back to school. Study economics. Then you'll be able to use tinfoil for lining pans, like everyone else.

[MakoZeroSix]

if most people knew the truth about our current system, they would not allow it to continue.

Most people don't give a rat's ass about the truth. As long as they have food, cable TV and a warm place to shit, they're good.

And seriously, knowing the ugly truths, I don't even care. Things are pretty awesome in this country for most people. Even our poor have Cheetos to eat and a trailer to sleep in, whereas the poor in other countries starve to death with flies all over their faces. So- whatever mischief the international bankers with their secret societies and whatnot have been up to seems to have worked pretty well.

Now, if everything goes to completely to shit, then all bets are off.

[HMdepperNavy]

Go back to school. Study economics. Then you'll be able to use tinfoil for lining pans, like everyone else.

You believe all of this is conspiracy? Do you believe the information discussed in the movie is false? I encourage you to check all the information out yourself. I also want to reccommend some books.

"The Case Against the Fed" by Murray N. Rothbard

"Tragedy & Hope: A History of the Wrold in Our Time" by Prof. Carroll Quigley
(1348 pages)

[HMdepperNavy]

Most people don't give a rat's ass about the truth. As long as they have food, cable TV and a warm place to shit, they're good.

And seriously, knowing the ugly truths, I don't even care. Things are pretty awesome in this country for most people. Even our poor have Cheetos to eat and a trailer to sleep in, whereas the poor in other countries starve to death with flies all over their faces. So- whatever mischief the international bankers with their secret societies and whatnot have been up to seems to have worked pretty well.

Now, if everything goes to completely to shit, then all bets are off.

The wealth and luxeries we have in this country is all an illusion. Our economic system is a house of cards, and the bankers have the power to blow it down. Everything may seem fine now, and everything will probably be fine for the next decade or so, but what about after that? I personally believe these bankers are trying to achieve more than to simply make money.

[Greenhat]

Go back to school. Study economics. Then you'll be able to use tinfoil for lining pans, like everyone else.


Have they started teaching that the banking/money system is a system (when analyzed carefully) that must go in cycles and which is manipulated by banks not treasuries yet?

I doubt it. Yet, it is very easy to illustrate just that.

[Greenhat]

The wealth and luxeries we have in this country is all an illusion.

Nonsense. The monatary system is an illusion, but the real wealth of the nation is not, nor is the strength of the US economy.

Our economic system is a house of cards, and the bankers have the power to blow it down.

A more accurate comment would be that our monetary system is a house of cards. And although it is the bankers that control that system, the current crisis demonstrates that not even the bankers wield absolute control over the system. The system is flawed and must collapse sooner or later, because it is based on requirements that contradict each other (the requirement for ever expanding debt and the requirement for the debt to be paid back).

[MakoZeroSix]

The wealth and luxeries we have in this country is all an illusion

My 50" plasma TV and the hot tub on my patio are far from illusory. That being said, everything in life is temporary, material or otherwise. Enjoy what you have while you have it. Every system fails, every life ends. Big deal.

I personally believe these bankers are trying to achieve more than to simply make money.

What do you base this belief on? This is where guys like you create problems in credibility that the rest of the people who have been conditioned by an adept IO campaign will point to you and reflexively yell "tin foil, tine foil!"

Is there a cabal of elite international bankers who exert an undue amount of influence over world affairs in order to skew things in their favor? Of course. I wouldn't start assigning any motives beyond simple money and power. Those two are plenty enough ends in and of themselves.

What are they trying to achieve beyond that? A Satanic One World Government? The return of the Annunaki from the planet Niribu that is going to cross our solar system in 2012? Shape shifting lizards? Those tales are all part of the brilliant IO campaign to assign fantastic motives to something that is really pretty mundane, all things considered.

Don't get all worked up over one movie. Spend a few years reading about all this stuff and researching it before you jump to any conclusions.

Your best bet is just to suck it up and start working for the man, and enjoy the ride while it lasts.

[Husker19D30]

I personally believe these bankers are trying to achieve more than to simply make money.

And there's the conspiracy theory. Why do you believe this?

[HMdepperNavy]

Nonsense. The monatary system is an illusion, but the real wealth of the nation is not, nor is the strength of the US economy.



A more accurate comment would be that our monetary system is a house of cards. And although it is the bankers that control that system, the current crisis demonstrates that not even the bankers wield absolute control over the system. The system is flawed and must collapse sooner or later, because it is based on requirements that contradict each other (the requirement for ever expanding debt and the requirement for the debt to be paid back).

Money is the nervous system of the economy. If the monetary system were to fail, the economy would fail as well. The Great Depression is an example of that. Sure, people lost money when the market crashed, but the actual depression began with the failure of the banking system, and the contraction of the money supply.

You mentioned that this recent crisis shows that the bankers don't have absolute control over the system. I personally disagree with that. Recessions are created when you contract the money supply. 90% of the money supply is credit, and who controls credit? Sure, the subprime loans, ARMs, acted as the catalyst, but who financed all those loans? Who packaged and bought all those bad mortgage backed securities?

Wallstreet, City of London, and the industrialized world's banking system are all part of the same family.

[Bravo Five Romeo]

There was a poster banned here not long ago for posting conspiracy nonsense.
He appeared later on another site under the name HMdepperNavy
He was banned there as well.

Two people could pick the same name.
It could be a coincidence.

Perhaps I'm mistaken so I want to give you the benefit of the doubt
HMdepperNavy, were you banned here some time ago for posting conspiracy nonsense?
Or were you simply instructed not to in the past.
I recall you posting something about President Elect Obama being the antiChrist.
If I am mistaken, I apologize in advance.

[Balls]

B5R,

Yes. "Waitingforwar" banned a little while ago. :confused:


http://socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1007508#post1007508 See post 645.

[HMdepperNavy]

And there's the conspiracy theory. Why do you believe this?

Well, in my opinion it is arguable to whether or not the goals of these elite international bankers are even conspiracy. Their goal is to create a world government, and a global financial system they themselves control. I could back that up if you would like.

What you could consider conspiracy is the intentions and motivation behind these goals. I have my beliefs when it comes to that as well, and if you would like I will go into further detail about that through PM.

[HMdepperNavy]

There was a poster banned here not long ago for posting conspiracy nonsense.
He appeared later on another site under the name HMdepperNavy
He was banned there as well.

Two people could pick the same name.
It could be a coincidence.

Perhaps I'm mistaken so I want to give you the benefit of the doubt
HMdepperNavy, were you banned here some time ago for posting conspiracy nonsense?
Or were you simply instructed not to in the past.
I recall you posting something about President Elect Obama being the antiChrist.
If I am mistaken, I apologize in advance.

Yes, I was banned for six months on this site, but it wasn't because of conspiracy theories.

[Husker19D30]

Well, in my opinion it is arguable to whether or not the goals of these elite international bankers are even conspiracy. Their goal is to create a world government, and a global financial system they themselves control. I could back that up if you would like.

What you could consider conspiracy is the intentions and motivation behind these goals. I have my beliefs when it comes to that as well, and if you would like I will go into further detail about that through PM.

Money and power have ever been two sides of the same coin. What is government really?

No, I don't want to hear your musings via PM. If you're not willing to put it out right here for all to see, then it's probably not worth hearing.

[HMdepperNavy]

Money and power have ever been two sides of the same coin. What is government really?

No, I don't want to hear your musings via PM. If you're not willing to put it out right here for all to see, then it's probably not worth hearing.

My beliefs are related to my spiritual faith, and my faith in the bible. Not everyone believes in the bible, and that is why I don't want to post my thoughts out in public.

[Odin's Underling]

The wealth and luxeries we have in this country is all an illusion.Not so. I know what I have. It is right in front of me or stuffed in my mattress. I personally believe these bankers are trying to achieve more than to simply make money.Then why haven't they already done what you think they will do and how will you know? Is it because you don't believe the bankers or do you believe in what someone else has to say?

I'm sure there are no problems. Just like when Barney Frank said that there was nothing wrong with Fannie and Freddie. We're going to be alright.

[MakoZeroSix]

My beliefs are related to my spiritual faith, and my faith in the bible. Not everyone believes in the bible, and that is why I don't want to post my thoughts out in public.
Reply With Quote

Yawn. And that's why nobody is going to take you seriously. Base your beliefs on tangible, empirical evidence.

[Husker19D30]

My beliefs are related to my spiritual faith, and my faith in the bible. Not everyone believes in the bible, and that is why I don't want to post my thoughts out in public.

Are you aware that the Roman Catholic Church is amongst if not THE single most wealthy single entity extent in the world today?

[Spinner]

Are you aware that the Roman Catholic Church is amongst if not THE single most wealthy single entity extent in the world today?

The Catholic church is loaded. I don't know how true it is, but I remember hearing a couple of different times that the church is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, landlords in the world.

They hold the deeds to a lot of property. My parish alone, which started out as a church built by the original pastor given his mandate by the archdiocese, occupies a full square block of prime real estate in our neighborhood.

[MakoZeroSix]

Are you aware that the Roman Catholic Church is amongst if not THE single most wealthy single entity extent in the world today?

Interestingly enough, many conspiracy theories implicate the Vatican with the rest of the "Satanic" organizations. Remember the P-2 Masonic Lodge scandal in Italy back in the 80's? Lots of the crazy assed evangelicals despise Catholics. When I lived in Florida, literally every Friday you'd have a dozen or so people protesting the Vatican in the middle of the city, holding signs that said shit like "No Hope In The Pope" and "Don't bow to a Roman Dictator". Plus there'd be billboards talking about "Satan Claus" at Christmas. Fun stuff.

[Greenhat]

Money is the nervous system of the economy. If the monetary system were to fail, the economy would fail as well.

No. Money is the lubricant of the economy. But the economy doesn't need fail if the monetary system fails. Monetary systems have failed before (and did not in the Great Depression) and economies survived. Barter is still viable.

The Great Depression is an example of that. Sure, people lost money when the market crashed, but the actual depression began with the failure of the banking system, and the contraction of the money supply.

And a massive drought and significant other events that impacted on the real economy. People have a tendency to forget or underestimate how large an effect the "dust bowl" had and its timing.

You mentioned that this recent crisis shows that the bankers don't have absolute control over the system. I personally disagree with that. Recessions are created when you contract the money supply. 90% of the money supply is credit, and who controls credit? Sure, the subprime loans, ARMs, acted as the catalyst, but who financed all those loans? Who packaged and bought all those bad mortgage backed securities?

The entire monetary system is based on issuing credit and having it paid back. The bankers HAVE TO continue to issue more and more credit. The system requires it. Ever expanding debt is essential to the lubrication as the monetary system is currently devised (worldwide). Also essential to the monetary system continuing to work is repayment of the debt (the two contradictory requirements). The system must cyclically fail. MUST. Not the bankers or anyone else can stop it.

[HMdepperNavy]

The entire monetary system is based on issuing credit and having it paid back. The bankers HAVE TO continue to issue more and more credit. The system requires it. Ever expanding debt is essential to the lubrication as the monetary system is currently devised (worldwide). Also essential to the monetary system continuing to work is repayment of the debt (the two contradictory requirements). The system must cyclically fail. MUST. Not the bankers or anyone else can stop it.

You're right, the system does need credit to survive. It sounds like you understand the system, but I'll explain why the system needs credit for those who don't.

The system needs more and more credit because interest is charged on the credit that flows through the economy. Borrowers have to pay off debt consisting of interest + principal from a money supply that only contains the amount of the principal. Without more credit, an x amount borrowers are going to default. The amount of interest divided by the sum of the interest and principal can calculate the exact percentage of people who will default if the credit flow were to stop.

The bankers can stop the system from failing... they could stop charging interest.

[HMdepperNavy]

Are you aware that the Roman Catholic Church is amongst if not THE single most wealthy single entity extent in the world today?

I personally believe the Catholic Church is a blasphemy to the teachings of Jesus Christ. I wouldn't go so far as to say it is a satanic cult, but I wouldn't be surprised if some connection between Catholicism and the occult was discovered.

[Greenhat]

You're right, the system does need credit to survive. It sounds like you understand the system, but I'll explain why the system needs credit for those who don't.

The system needs more and more credit because interest is charged on the credit that flows through the economy. Borrowers have to pay off debt consisting of interest + principal from a money supply that only contains the amount of the principal. Without more credit, an x amount borrowers are going to default. The amount of interest divided by the sum of the interest and principal can calculate the exact percentage of people who will default if the credit flow were to stop.

The bankers can stop the system from failing... they could stop charging interest.


Not quite. You've forgotten the "float". Bankers loan far more money than they actually have. They have to loan even more money in order for the system to continue to work.

[HMdepperNavy]

Not quite. You've forgotten the "float". Bankers loan far more money than they actually have. They have to loan even more money in order for the system to continue to work.

They do, but banks not having enough in reserves to cover their assets only becomes a problem when there is a run on the bank. Don't get my wrong, I am no fan of fractional reserve banking, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the system's need for more credit. Like you said earlier, the system needs more credit to pay off the existing credit.

[mdb23]

I personally believe the Catholic Church is a blasphemy to the teachings of Jesus Christ. I wouldn't go so far as to say it is a satanic cult, but I wouldn't be surprised if some connection between Catholicism and the occult was discovered.

This is not "I hate Caholicism dot com."

If you want to discuss the American economic system, proceed. If you want to bash a religion because it isn't your "chosen" path, please go somewhere else.

[Greenhat]

They do, but banks not having enough in reserves to cover their assets only becomes a problem when there is a run on the bank. Don't get my wrong, I am no fan of fractional reserve banking, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the system's need for more credit. Like you said earlier, the system needs more credit to pay off the existing credit.

Actually, not having the assets to cover their loans is always a problem, run on the bank or not. That is why there is a legal requirement to have a percentage of the loans value... but since that value can be used multiple times (in ever reducing percentages), the reality is that instead of having 10% of the reserves to cover "assets", a bank may have only 1%. Customers withdrawing 1% of the banks total assets is not a run... but it could put a bank under. So, how do the banks cope with this? They issue more credit in an effort to improve the amount of cash that comes back into the bank in repayments, and again, the cycle is ongoing, and has become unstoppable (it will stop only when the banking system completely fails). Banks not charging interest won't change it. The system is broken whether interest is charged or not.

There's a little exercise using chess pieces and playing cards (representing the people who use money and money itself) that will illustrate the point. Even with no interest, each cycle creates more debt. It must. To the point that sooner or later the system fails (and then must start again).

[davidj]

HM, your understanding of the credit system is flawed. Borrowers take on debt for many reasons, but usually they believe they will have the future cash-flows to service the debt.

Servicing the debt can be done in different forms depending on the type of financing obtained. Yet you assume that borrowers must "pay off debt....from a money supply that only contains the amount of the principal." There are other sources of cash, namely a company's operating, financing, and investing activities, or in other words the business of the company. Lenders would be very adverse to lending cash to a company that intends to rely on borrowing even more cash to repay their loan. There are things such as credit and default risk that a lender will analyze prior to the issuance of a loan.

That "exact percentage of people who will default" is a load of crap. Tell me how you would calculate the "amount of interest" and "the sum of the interest and principal." Good luck with that.



You're right, the system does need credit to survive. It sounds like you understand the system, but I'll explain why the system needs credit for those who don't.

The system needs more and more credit because interest is charged on the credit that flows through the economy. Borrowers have to pay off debt consisting of interest + principal from a money supply that only contains the amount of the principal. Without more credit, an x amount borrowers are going to default. The amount of interest divided by the sum of the interest and principal can calculate the exact percentage of people who will default if the credit flow were to stop.

The bankers can stop the system from failing... they could stop charging interest.

[Greenhat]

From a macro point of view, he's correct. Actually, it's worse than he states. Some debtors must default. There is insufficient currency for any other qesult.

[HMdepperNavy]

HM, your understanding of the credit system is flawed. Borrowers take on debt for many reasons, but usually they believe they will have the future cash-flows to service the debt.

Servicing the debt can be done in different forms depending on the type of financing obtained. Yet you assume that borrowers must "pay off debt....from a money supply that only contains the amount of the principal." There are other sources of cash, namely a company's operating, financing, and investing activities, or in other words the business of the company. Lenders would be very adverse to lending cash to a company that intends to rely on borrowing even more cash to repay their loan. There are things such as credit and default risk that a lender will analyze prior to the issuance of a loan.

That "exact percentage of people who will default" is a load of crap. Tell me how you would calculate the "amount of interest" and "the sum of the interest and principal." Good luck with that.

Those future profits borrowers expect to recieve comes from the economy's overall money supply. Believe it or not, over 90% of the economy's money supply is credit.

The math is simple. Lets say there was $100,000 injected into the economy in the form of credit, and there was $10,000 in overall interest charged on that original $100,000. The economy would now owe the lender $110,000. The problem is that the lender never created that extra $10,000 to pay off the interest. Therefore, there is only $100,000 available to pay off that $110,000 debt. It's obviously impossible for everyone in the economy to pay off their loans. If you take the interest ($10,000) and divide it by the principal plus interest ($110,000), you would find that 9% of the population will not be able to pay off their loans.

Now, ill try to apply that math to our current economy using a rough calculation. I'll use the country's GDP to guess the amount of money in the money supply. We have a GDP of around $13 trillion. Therefore, it's safe to assume, if around 90% of the GDP is credit, that around $11.5 trillion of that is debt. Lets assume that 8% interest is charged on that debt. That would equal around $1 trillion. If we take that $1 trillion, divide it by the interest plus principal, or $12.5 trillion, you would have 8% of the population going bankrupt in the event that credit flow completley stopped. However, considering there is about $2.5 trillion in cash available, we could drop 1% from the orginal number of 8%. In conclusion, about 7% of all debt holders in this country would go bankrupt in the event of a 100% credit freeze. That 7% would include businesses and individuals alike.

[davidj]

OK I'm sorry I thought we were talking on a micro level.

[MakoZeroSix]

I personally believe the Catholic Church is a blasphemy to the teachings of Jesus Christ. I wouldn't go so far as to say it is a satanic cult, but I wouldn't be surprised if some connection between Catholicism and the occult was discovered.

AH HA! I Knew it! This is one of those guys with the "No Hope In The Pope" signs. Sometimes people don't believe me when I tell them about people protesting Catholics. I've finally found one.

Okay- let's have some fun with you, stud. Tell us what you think about the Jews? Better or worse than Catholics? Spawn of Satan?

Dinosaur bones? Were they put under the earth to tempt us into believing in evolution? How about radiocarbon dating? More Jew lies, eh? The earth is only like 3000 years old according to your bible, aren't we being lied to about the universe being billions of years old?

How about the barcodes? Aren't they an Illuminati plot to have us all marked with the "number of the beast"?

Enlighten us with the rest of your theories. I can't wait to hear them.

[SOTB]

....If you want to bash a religion because it isn't your "chosen" path, please go somewhere else.Noooooo, let him be. With any luck at all, he'll soon step on his virtual dick and tie the Catholic Church and bankers together in a plot to rule the planet. He'll reward us with reminders as to why people find specops careers glorious opportunities to have fun. We'll get another inkling as to why he was banned to begin with, and MZ6, KidA, B5R, with others, will gleefully embarrass the boy into pounding on his keyboard as to what meanies this site is made up of and how we'll all go to hell for not heeding his mighty words of wisdom. And then, great rejoicing will indeed arise, when our hero finds himself taking yet another infamous Chinook ride into the horizon that is his mind.

Post away depper....

[mdb23]

AH HA! I Knew it! This is one of those guys with the "No Hope In The Pope" signs. Sometimes people don't believe me when I tell them about people protesting Catholics. I've finally found one.


Wish I knew you were looking for one......you can find them everywhere in the midwest. Its an evangelical stronghold.....Im not kidding.

I once had to ride with a new guy (for one night), and about 5 minutes into the shift he said that he had heard I was Catholic....I said that I was, and he replied, "doesn't it bother you knowing that you and your children are going to burn in hell?"

I went back to the station and chucked him outta my car....

One of my best friends is a Jewish officer on the dept....I joke about how we gotta watch each others' backs when they (they Falwellites) come for us....

It's not really a joke...:biggrin:

[Domino]

Y

The bankers can stop the system from failing... they could stop charging interest.

The system wouldn't fail, and the bankers wouldn't have to worry about anything if people would pay for what they buy on credit. It has been ever thus. The thought that greedy cabals of bankers set up this present credit crisis so they could go broke owning worthless mortgages and credit card paper is ludicrous. If people honored their promises to pay as agreed, the problem would never have arisen, or if it did, would be minimal. Among other things, I am a lender. Borrowers are pretty enthusiastic when they get what they want, but seem to have lots of issues with paying for it after the credit is extended. Now, we have come to the point where "you have the right to settle your credit card debt for less than you owe!" No wonder the banks haven't started lending again after the "bailout!"

People who live within their means, use common sense in handling their resources, thrive and survive, even in down times, while those who ignore these have serious problems, and cause serious problems for everyone else.

It is, and remains all about responsibility for your own acts, trust and being trustworthy. You are the Captain of your own ship and are responsible for everything that happens to and on it. It is up to you to follow orders and directives, and if you screw up, you are the cause of problems for the rest of the fleet, not a bunch of greedy bankers.

This episode is going to become the next chapter in Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, when the next edition is written, revised and updated, along with the Tulip Mania, the Mississippi Company, the South Sea Company, alchemy and other madness.

[Greenhat]

The system wouldn't fail, and the bankers wouldn't have to worry about anything if people would pay for what they buy on credit. It has been ever thus. The thought that greedy cabals of bankers set up this present credit crisis so they could go broke owning worthless mortgages and credit card paper is ludicrous. If people honored their promises to pay as agreed, the problem would never have arisen, or if it did, would be minimal. Among other things, I am a lender. Borrowers are pretty enthusiastic when they get what they want, but seem to have lots of issues with paying for it after the credit is extended. Now, we have come to the point where "you have the right to settle your credit card debt for less than you owe!" No wonder the banks haven't started lending again after the "bailout!"

People who live within their means, use common sense in handling their resources, thrive and survive, even in down times, while those who ignore these have serious problems, and cause serious problems for everyone else.

It is, and remains all about responsibility for your own acts, trust and being trustworthy. You are the Captain of your own ship and are responsible for everything that happens to and on it. It is up to you to follow orders and directives, and if you screw up, you are the cause of problems for the rest of the fleet, not a bunch of greedy bankers.

That all sounds really great... but from the overall perspective of the monetary system, it's nonsense. Not only is the system built in such a way that it is impossible for everyone, no matter how responsible, to pay off their debts... but the system is also built in such a manner that such responsibility would destroy the system. The banking and monetary systems worldwide are built on debt. Without debt (debt beyond the capability of all the borrowers to pay), the system grinds to a halt and stops working. The banks go out of business. Is it a conspiracy? I don't think so. I think it is simply how the system evolved starting with greedy individual bankers and being rewarded by success.

The system is fundamentally flawed, and we pay the price for it. Traditionally, we pay the price in the form of recession every 20 years or so. Unfortunately, since the Great Depression, a number of "safeguards" have been put in place which have delayed the inevitable downturn. It hasn't fixed the flaws, so sooner or later, we're going to pay the price.

[Domino]

Not to worry. It will never happen that EVERYONE will begin to act responsibly. I have been a lawyer for 35 years, and I realized about that long ago that if everyone started doing what they were supposed to do, that being those obligations freely assumed by contract or imposed by society, that I would have to go to barber college.

But we don't have to worry too much about EVERYONE. If all you do is act responsibly yourself, like my instructor pilot always said, "Don't do nuttin' stupid!", you will be just fine, almost no matter what.

I do not agree, BTW, that the "system" is flawed, not to the point that it isn't working anyway. What isn't working is people, gaming the system, the moral hazard we learned as being a risk when it is more advantageous to default than to perform. Debt is OK, and essential to sound economic growth, provided people are responsible about it.

When did we need ID in the old days for almost any mundane transaction? Now one needs ID all the time. People will cheat! People are more and more adopting the Beavis and Butthead mode of conduct, of persistent irrepressible irresponsibility, the costs of which are staggering. No system will accommodate that when it becomes so pervasive.

[Greenhat]

What is the purpose of currency, Domino?

[Domino]

Every few years it seems like we see these folks surface, claiming that all the evil in the world arises from some mysterious cabal, most recently in the Speaker of the House of Representatives having his fingers crossed behind his back when the Federal Reserve Act was approved in 1913, which renders it illegal and unConstitutional. Some claim that the Article III courts are unConstitutional, and so is the entire monetary system.

There was an outbreak of this foolishness about 15 years ago. LeRoy Schweitzer, one of the leaders of the Montana Freemen, started holding seminars at which he would distribute to each attendee some hundreds of thousands of dollars in the new money, warrants or whatever he called them. These were supposedly backed by liens filed against the Secretary of the Treasury or some such nonsense. Some people actually took these and used them to buy new cars and all sorts of stuff. One fellow sent us something like $1 million in "warrants" to repay a real estate loan that was in foreclosure. I rejected the payment, continued the foreclosure and was sued in the People's Court, or Citizens Court, whatever they called it, in Montana, for $100 million. I offered to settle by paying the "Plaintiff" $10 million in warrants, but he wouldn't take it. Another fellow tried to pay an IRS lien with these warrants!!! The "case" never went very far; the perps were arrested and thrown in jail for grand theft and other charges; According to a Senate Office of Research report, the Freemen lien scheme spawned 65 different criminal investigations, involving more than 150 defendants. The checks and warrants issued would have been worth more than $2 billion had they been used successfully.

More fodder for the Extraordinary Popular Delusions.... crowd.

[Domino]

What is the purpose of currency, Domino?

A medium of exchange and a store of value, so you won't have to lug 600 lbs of gold around to buy a car, etc.

I am not going to conduct an entire course here on Money and Banking; for that, I suggest you do like I did and attend the college courses at your nearest university of some repute.

[Greenhat]

A medium of exchange and a store of value, so you won't have to lug 600 lbs of gold around to buy a car, etc.

I am not going to conduct an entire course here on Money and Banking; for that, I suggest you do like I did and attend the college courses at your nearest university of some repute.

Not only have I taken every economics course available at the University of Michigan (which might be considered an institute of some repute), I have a retired CFO for a father, my sister was a bank manager for a while, I have read extensively the works of Georg Fredrich, Knapp, Ludwig von Mises (ever hear the phrase: "Mises was right"?), Henry C. Simons, Lloyd Mints, John Maynard Keynes, George J. Stigler and Milton Friedman, among others. One of my friends here in the land of smiles actually studied under Friedman.

I think I am quite prepared to discuss economic theory, including the aspects that you are obviously unwilling to consider.

What value exactly does fiat currency actually have?

In fact, it has none other than as a medium of exchange. And if currency is a medium of exchange, how can the system NOT be flawed if there is insufficient currency by which to make the exchanges possible (in terms of production and services available) in the economy?

I'm sorry that your university education was so deficit that you didn't learn to ask questions, and also saddened that you are unwilling to actually consider having an intelligent conversation on the subject.

[MakoZeroSix]

Come on HMDepperNavy...don't let me down brother. I know you're sitting there...hands trembling in anticipation of pouring out all those pent up feelings inside. Tell me about the Jews. I know you want to. Just get it off your chest. Just reach forward to that keyboard and let it all come out.

Tell me about the Learned Elders of Zion. Tell me about how the Bonesmen pray to their Pagan God Baphomet, and will feast on our flesh in the concentration camps at the Denver Airport (you know, the place with all the Masonic symbols and Pagan art in the terminal). Tell me about how the Catholic priests bugger small boys to seal their occultic pact with the Unknown Superiors. Tell me about the Illuminati and the North American Union, which will merge with the European Union to form the Satanic One World Government.

You've come so far, man. Don't quit on us now...

[SOTB]

And as with a crowd below a jumper in LA -- from below rises the voices of: "Jump! Jump! Jump!":p

[HMdepperNavy]

Come on HMDepperNavy...don't let me down brother. I know you're sitting there...hands trembling in anticipation of pouring out all those pent up feelings inside. Tell me about the Jews. I know you want to. Just get it off your chest. Just reach forward to that keyboard and let it all come out.

Tell me about the Learned Elders of Zion. Tell me about how the Bonesmen pray to their Pagan God Baphomet, and will feast on our flesh in the concentration camps at the Denver Airport (you know, the place with all the Masonic symbols and Pagan art in the terminal). Tell me about how the Catholic priests bugger small boys to seal their occultic pact with the Unknown Superiors. Tell me about the Illuminati and the North American Union, which will merge with the European Union to form the Satanic One World Government.

You've come so far, man. Don't quit on us now...

:biggrin:

I have no desire to sit here and preach brother. My earlier comment was a respone to what I felt was an attempt to associate myself with Catholicism.

However, if it were to be asked of me, I would be glad to discuss my opinions and beliefs through PM.

PS: I would like to make a challenge, though. I can promise to any Catholic, that if they listen to what I have to say, they will cease being a Catholic. ;)

[grappler]

:
PS: I would like to make a challenge, though. I can promise to any Catholic, that if they listen to what I have to say, they will cease being a Catholic. ;)

Dude, you're about to do more than throw out a challenge - COMMA - you sound like you're about to trample on people's (Catholics) beliefs.

I think you need to take a step back and get your bearings before one of these professionals stops being nice and thumps your ass hard.

[Greenhat]

PS: I would like to make a challenge, though. I can promise to any Catholic, that if they listen to what I have to say, they will cease being a Catholic. ;)


Even assuming you have something to say that might make someone reconsider their beliefs, faith is seperate from reasoning, so this promise is silly. Grappler gave you good advice. I'd heed it.

[HMdepperNavy]

Dude, you're about to do more than throw out a challenge - COMMA - you sound like you're about to trample on people's (Catholics) beliefs.

I think you need to take a step back and get your bearings before one of these professionals stops being nice and thumps your ass hard.

Like I said earlier, I'll discuss my opinions and beliefs through PM. My "challenge" was an invitation.

[Oldpogue]

Why is it that people who seemto be somewhat intelligent, always end up with their head stuck up their ass when it comes to telling everyone that their religion is the right one and every one else is going to hell???

[SOTB]

....I have no desire to sit here and preach....Stud, since you have arrived here on this board, that is EXACTLY what you have wanted to do.

Whether the economy, fav deities, energy, the mindset/motivations of people who choose specops as a career, or SARC enlistment requirements -- you've taken great pains to let us know how truly knowledgeable you are. To the extent, that as usual; a know-nothing, done-nothing, doing-nothing hero demands that his voice be given the same weight as those around him -- even if his entire vocabulary wouldn't fill a page in the dictionary of any of the servicemen or servicewomen that posts on this board.

You not only epitomize the idea of "read more, post less" but you demonstrate that the concept of common sense doesn't exist....

[MakoZeroSix]

However, if it were to be asked of me, I would be glad to discuss my opinions and beliefs through PM.

PMs are for cowards, bro. I'm calling you out. Tell me, and the hundreds in the audience why the Catholics should repent or face eternal damnation. And then throw in something about damned Jews, just for good measure...

[HMdepperNavy]

PMs are for cowards, bro. I'm calling you out. Tell me, and the hundreds in the audience why the Catholics should repent or face eternal damnation. And then throw in something about damned Jews, just for good measure...

Alright, if I can get immunity from a mod I will open up a new thread discussing Catholicism.

[Bravo Five Romeo]

Like I said earlier, I'll discuss my opinions and beliefs through PM.Then why start this thread if you're so shy about your opinions?
Though I admit... your situational awareness has slightly improved since your first appearance on this board and you're restraining yourself.

Then again...
If you truly believed, you wouldn't be afraid to post.

Unless, of course, you don't truly believe.
:biggrin:


Alright, if I can get immunity from a mod I will open up a new thread discussing Catholicism.Oh ye of little faith...
Is it so easy for you to abandon your own beliefs for fear of reprisal on an internet board?

[HMdepperNavy]

Oh ye of little faith...
Is it so easy for you to abandon your own beliefs for fear of reprisal on an internet board?

lol, why must you tempt me? :mad::biggrin:

[Billy L-bach]

this thread sounds like it came from a high school restroom
I sure hope it gets closed soon

[Dark Helmet]

Depper, I am always amazed how a youngster like you would cross swords with the likes of Greenhat and others on a topic far too complex for even the best minds of the world to effectively comprehend, especially when it isn't likely that you have even filed a tax return yet.


I sure hope it gets closed soon

Done.